Jump to content

When offered the Vaccine, will you take it?


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 2.5k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

The private sector has embarked on a major campaign to reassure the public that they will not release a vaccine until they are confident it is safe and effective. We can expect a joint statement from

As many of you know I am right of center politically.  I dont think vaccines are a political issue or at least they should not be.  My family are all vaccinated. I tried to think of how I should

You are such a bag of shit wrapped in a thin veneer of pseudo self esteem. You are a walking around killer of strangers free riding on those who got vaccinated. Sponger.

Posted Images

1 minute ago, 00seven said:

I worry about your missus. And the wasp in your letter box.

She's fine, the wasps won't be back till September.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/15/2021 at 12:17 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

The same people that filled their boot with toilet paper when stay in place orders were issued.

 

@mikewof you really are a novice at this lockdown thing.  Hardcore survivalists don't use shit tickets, they just pick it off when it dries.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

At this point, there is a lot of vaccine and shot-givers just standing around waiting. Anyone who wants the shot can get one.

If there's a divide, IMHO it falls along IQ lines rather than economics.

- DSK

Up here just across the border we're all choked we have to wait so long for our second doses.  SWMBO health professional just popped in and told me our health region is now up to 75% vaccinated for the 12 and up age group.  I got my first one May 6, and it looks like another 4-5 weeks to get the next one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Up here just across the border we're all choked we have to wait so long for our second doses.  SWMBO health professional just popped in and told me our health region is now up to 75% vaccinated for the 12 and up age group.  I got my first one May 6, and it looks like another 4-5 weeks to get the next one.

Yes, I'm curious about what appears to be a holdup as well.  

I got the AZ through a local pharmacy back on April 17 and now have a confirmed booking for one of the mRNA vaccines on July 7.  Although when I got the first dose, at the time they said my next dose would be mid-August. 

Anyway, they give the impression we are awash in mRNA vaccines now and it seems like pretty much everyone who wants to be vaccinated has received their first dose.  And it's not like they haven't started the second round yet - a guy here at work who is 70, got his first Pfizer a couple of weeks before me is getting his second tomorrow.

Not a huge difference I suppose, but still I didn't think he would be getting it 3 weeks before me.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 12 metre said:

Yes, I'm curious about what appears to be a holdup as well.  

I got the AZ through a local pharmacy back on April 17 and now have a confirmed booking for one of the mRNA vaccines on July 7.  Although when I got the first dose, at the time they said my next dose would be mid-August. 

Anyway, they give the impression we are awash in mRNA vaccines now and it seems like pretty much everyone who wants to be vaccinated has received their first dose.  And it's not like they haven't started the second round yet - a guy here at work who is 70, got his first Pfizer a couple of weeks before me is getting his second tomorrow.

Not a huge difference I suppose, but still I didn't think he would be getting it 3 weeks before me.

If you booked on-line, know that the government on-line software isn't very good.  It doesn't take advantage of cancellations, for example.  

If you call in, the people who do the bookings can often get you in early on a cancellation.   

I have younger friends who got in weeks before me by using the call in service rather than the on-line.  I learned my lesson and will use the call in service when I am notified that I can get my second dose.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

If you booked on-line, know that the government on-line software isn't very good.  It doesn't take advantage of cancellations, for example.  

If you call in, the people who do the bookings can often get you in early on a cancellation.   

I have younger friends who got in weeks before me by using the call in service rather than the on-line.  I learned my lesson and will use the call in service when I am notified that I can get my second dose.

I used the call in service because they texted me to book and provided a link - but I refuse to have data on my phone or use wifi - I'm a bit of a Luddite in that regard  Ended up trying to type in the 99+ random character link in my web browser and failed.

So finally I called them instead and surprisingly got through in no time and quickly booked an appointment.  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Get your mRNA however. Can you get a real do over and get 2 mRNA shots? AZ is not as protective for delta at all.

Maybe possible as a booster down the road.

Interestingly enough, while a double dose of Pfizer is more effective than a double AZ - I'm pretty certain I stumbled across a study the other day that said - surprisingly - that AZ followed by Pfizer actually generated more antibodies than a double dose of Pfizer.

If I recall the numbers correctly, compared to a single dose of AZ; double AZ generates 2x the antibodies, double Pfizer was 4-5x, but AZ followed by Pfizer was 7x.

if that is true, it could explain why people have reported such a strong reaction to AZ - Pfizer.

Now it could be that generating large amounts of antibodies does not enhance protection, IDK, I don't know much about this stuff.  Or whether that study is to be believed.

If anyone has contrarian data/info, I would love to hear it.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm 55. First dose April 19. 2nd dose booked for July 4th. In Vancouver as well. When you get a link for a vaccine invite, check multiple locations. Lots of the closer ones were July 13th but the Vancouver convention center was July 4. Didn't think to check nearby municipalities!

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

@EYESAILOR Is it true that both the Moderna and the Pzifer phase 3 trials are now unblinded and there is no placebo group?  Has this ever occurred before in the history of vaccine testing?

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-conclude-phase-3-study-covid-19-vaccine 

https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-initiate-rolling-submission-biologics 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4947948/

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

@EYESAILOR Is it true that both the Moderna and the Pzifer phase 3 trials are now unblinded and there is no placebo group?  Has this ever occurred before in the history of vaccine testing?

I asked myself the same question when I had my 1st shot. Are they still playing with us? But the efficiency is so high that they don«'t need any more data. Real life will provide it.

Anyway, got my 2nd shot Monday. Here in Quebec, initial 16 weeks between shots can be changed on the web site as soon as 8 weeks has pass. For us, it's been 10 weeks, the soft spot for max efficiency.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, PeterSailor said:

I asked myself the same question when I had my 1st shot. Are they still playing with us? But the efficiency is so high that they don«'t need any more data. Real life will provide it.

That isn't how drug approval is supposed to happen.  The so called "real data" will be hard to obtain as its veracity gets hidden.

For example the CDC estimates that adverse reactions to treatments are under-reported by between a factor of 10 and 50.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

You haven't answered the question.

I'll do it for you - placebo and blinded phase 3 trials are now not happening or the numbers remaining in those groups are not large enough to generate valid data.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

You haven't answered the question.

I'll do it for you - placebo and blinded phase 3 trials are now not happening or the numbers remaining in those groups are not large enough to generate valid data.

image.png.65b8670d059edd7e0629ccf476589021.png

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, random. said:

 

image.png.65b8670d059edd7e0629ccf476589021.png

Randumb do you realise that for religious reasons cremating bodies in India in open areas is the preferred way to do it?  You are doing exactly what you accuse others of doing and that is misinforming.

27,000 people die a day in India in an average year.

Did you know that the with Covid deaths per million in the USA is 6 times that of India?

This is the current situation in the most populous country in the world.

coronavirus-data-explorer.thumb.png.388d0d9596ddfc4cfb6ee80cb55eb93d.png

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

You haven't answered the question.

I'll do it for you - placebo and blinded phase 3 trials are now not happening or the numbers remaining in those groups are not large enough to generate valid data.

Mikey has changed key words in the ongoing COVID denial program.

Use terms most people are not familiar with to 'sow seeds of fear and doubt.'

Now it's "phase 3 trials"

Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

You haven't answered the question.

I'll do it for you - placebo and blinded phase 3 trials are now not happening or the numbers remaining in those groups are not large enough to generate valid data.

Both questions were answered for you. First by Pfizer. Second by FDA.

1. Phase 3 complete and data submitted.  Rolling submission of data continues.  2 year observation/monitoring period continues.

2. Is monitoring a vaccine without placebo SOP? Yes .  Do you need an explanation why the placebo group are offered the vaccine after trial? and why monitoring continues?

In response to your last post. Blinded phase 3 trials are continuing on vaccines still preparing data for submission

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

In response to your last post. Blinded phase 3 trials are continuing on vaccines still under review.

 

Are you sure about that?  

The BMJ asked Moderna, Pfizer, and Janssen (Johnson and Johnson) what proportion of trial participants were now formally unblinded, and how many originally allocated to placebo have now received a vaccine. Pfizer declined to say, but Moderna announced that “as of April 13, all placebo participants have been offered the Moderna covid-19 vaccine and 98% of those have received the vaccine.”2 In other words, the trial is unblinded, and the placebo group no longer exists.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Are you sure about that?  

The BMJ asked Moderna, Pfizer, and Janssen (Johnson and Johnson) what proportion of trial participants were now formally unblinded, and how many originally allocated to placebo have now received a vaccine. Pfizer declined to say, but Moderna announced that “as of April 13, all placebo participants have been offered the Moderna covid-19 vaccine and 98% of those have received the vaccine.”2 In other words, the trial is unblinded, and the placebo group no longer exists.

Yes I am sure.   31 vaccines are still undergoing blinded phase 3 trials. 4 have been abandoned during their trials.

Two of the three you mentioned have submitted their efficacy data in a rolling submission. They have offered placebo participants the opportunity to be vaccinated for so that they can be immunized. We should thank them for their service. SOP is to continue monitoring them for 2 years for safety factors where a placebo group is not needed. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

placebo and blinded phase 3 trials are now not happening

I wanted to be clear that there are 20+ blinded trials going on right now for further covid vaccines.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Yes I am sure.   31 vaccines are still undergoing blinded phase 3 trials. 4 have been abandoned during their trials.

Two of the three you mentioned have submitted their efficacy data in a rolling submission. They have offered placebo participants the opportunity to be vaccinated for so that they can be immunized. We should thank them for their service. SOP is to continue monitoring them for 2 years for safety factors where a placebo group is not needed. 

Moderna and the Pzifer vaccines are relatively new types of vaccines yet placebo and blind trials have essentially been finished before the recommended time and what were the previous standards.

What other mass vaccination programme has been undertaken globally with a vaccine under EUA and without following trial conventions and standards?

Moderna and Pzifer have issued over 1 billion doses of their vaccines.

Yes if you are vulnerable to serious illness from catching Covid-19 then by all means get vaccinated however science and the data says that children should NOT be vaccinated.  

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:
45 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

placebo and blinded phase 3 trials are now not happening

 

I thought I'd complete the quote for you @EYESAILOR

46 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

or the numbers remaining in those groups are not large enough to generate valid data.

 

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Continuation of placebo controlled follow-up after EUA will be important and may actually be critical to ensure that additional safety and effectiveness data are accrued to support submission of a licensure application as soon as possible following an EUA. … Once a decision is made to unblind an ongoing placebo controlled trial, that decision cannot be walked back. And that controlled follow-up is lost forever,” the FDA said last October.3

At its next advisory committee in December 2020, the FDA reiterated the importance of the placebo group: “Placebo controlled follow-up can be very important in showing that whatever happened in the vaccine group also happened in the placebo group. Because that’s our best way of knowing.13

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

[In the US,] People hospitalized with COVID-19 now have one overwhelming thing in common. They're not vaccinated

Is this enough of an incentive for the deniers to get vaccinated? If the stick and the carrot did not work, is fear going to get them to that point?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/06/16/majority-covid-19-hospital-patients-us-now-unvaccinated-younger/7684857002/

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Laurent said:

[In the US,] People hospitalized with COVID-19 now have one overwhelming thing in common. They're not vaccinated

Is this enough of an incentive for the deniers to get vaccinated? If the stick and the carrot did not work, is fear going to get them to that point?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/06/16/majority-covid-19-hospital-patients-us-now-unvaccinated-younger/7684857002/

What is the percentage of people that have been hospitalised WITH Covid-19 as a percentage of the total number of people hospitalised?

How many were admitted for other conditions in the first instance?

How many have pre-existing conditions that inevitably would result in hospitalisation at some stage?

How many Covid-19 vaccinated people are in hospital?  

Link to post
Share on other sites

I firmly believe that the only thing that will get the deniers to get vaccinated is if a much more deadly variant comes along. Not more contagious, not with more long-haul issues, not primarily to those with co-morbidities, not with a strong age-dependence, but flat-out more deadly across the board. Subtlety is not a strong point with this crowd.

I don't know what CFR threshold constitutes the magic number but I'm guessing it's >25%. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

What is the percentage of people that have been hospitalised WITH Covid-19 as a percentage of the total number of people hospitalised?

How many were admitted for other conditions in the first instance?

How many have pre-existing conditions that inevitably would result in hospitalisation at some stage?

How many Covid-19 vaccinated people are in hospital?  

Mikey is such a dumb cunt

So many questions!  So many things he does not understand.

847eed2503bf544f997b97a76a573cde.gif

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, IStream said:

I firmly believe that the only thing that will get the deniers to get vaccinated is if a much more deadly variant comes along. Not more contagious, not with more long-haul issues, not primarily to those with co-morbidities, not with a strong age-dependence, but flat-out more deadly across the board. Subtlety is not a strong point with this crowd.

I don't know what CFR threshold constitutes the magic number but I'm guessing it's >25%. 

 

As much as the deniers upset us, I dont think we would wish that on anyone.

52% of the populations has been vaccinated. Whatever KSB arguments about adolescents are safer coming down with the disease than being vaccinated, it is certain that 48% of the population are not under 19, so it would be good to get that vaccinated rate up to 70+ %

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, random. said:

Mikey is such a dumb cunt

So many questions!  So many things he does not understand.

I realise most things are complex for you as evident by your cogent and well thought arguments - not.

10 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

What is the percentage of people that have been hospitalised WITH Covid-19 as a percentage of the total number of people hospitalised?

The current in-patient rate for Covid-19 hospitalisation is 2.53% in the USA.  The NHS in the UK reports 0.8%.

So 97.5% of hospitalisations are NOT for Covid-19.

image.thumb.png.651d07b88b7cefc6d69ccb184e85d38b.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

As much as the deniers upset us, I dont think we would wish that on anyone.

52% of the populations has been vaccinated. Whatever KSB arguments about adolescents are safer coming down with the disease than being vaccinated, it is certain that 48% of the population are not under 19, so it would be good to get that vaccinated rate up to 70+ %

I didn't wish it, I just said that that's what it'll take.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

52% of the populations has been vaccinated. Whatever KSB arguments about adolescents are safer coming down with the disease than being vaccinated, it is certain that 48% of the population are not under 19, so it would be good to get that vaccinated rate up to 70+ %

28% are under the age of 19 in the USA.  So certainly no need to vaccinate children who are not at risk.  Isn't that what parenting and medicine should be about?  Get all the old vulnerable comobid's vaccinated and protect the young?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, IStream said:

I didn't wish it, I just said that that's what it'll take.

That or kids getting really sick. Scary ER sick. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, NeedAClew said:

That or kids getting really sick. Scary ER sick. 

That may get them to vaccinate their kids but not themselves. A deadly plague in the biblical sense and sparing no one is about the only thing these folks seem willing to respond to and, even then, there's the question of exactly how deadly does it need to be. For every 10%'er who decides to get the jab, there's gonna be a 20%'er saying it's really not necessary.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If hundreds of thousands dying and millions suffering long term effects hasn't changed their minds then nothing will.  And whoever said there is no such thing as a stupid question never met Mikey.

Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

.... Whatever KSB arguments about adolescents are safer coming down with the disease than being vaccinated...

Mikey/KSFB's "arguments" are whackadoodle bullshit.

I don't know if it is actually getting paid to post dangerous disinformation, but that is the net effect.

1 minute ago, d'ranger said:

If hundreds of thousands dying and millions suffering long term effects hasn't changed their minds then nothing will.  And whoever said there is no such thing as a stupid question never met Mikey.

Bingo. We need to try to present easily accessible facts and be persuasive to get more people vaccinated, but there is a hard core of bullshit-believers who will follow their Pied Pipers right over the cliff. Nothing will change their "minds."

- DSK

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

If hundreds of thousands dying and millions suffering long term effects hasn't changed their minds then nothing will.  And whoever said there is no such thing as a stupid question never met Mikey.

Yeah, but those were the sick and the old. You know, expendables. Life's cheap for these people and the only thing they understand is self-interest.

Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, IStream said:

Yeah, but those were the sick and the old. You know, expendables. Life's cheap for these people and the only thing they understand is self-interest.

Yeah and people with comorbidities "reflecting a life of excess" or some crap. Basically deserved it or just taking up space anyhow. Narcissists lack empathy. My mother's doctor told me that. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

28% are under the age of 19 in the USA.  So certainly no need to vaccinate children who are not at risk.  Isn't that what parenting and medicine should be about?  Get all the old vulnerable comobid's vaccinated and protect the young?

we had a vaccinated nurse test positive yesterday and infectious. Rare but not unknown

We have children quite sick. Could you kindly explain how getting all old grandies vaccinated protects the young from infecting others?

The young go out and about more, infect more, spread it more.

If they are vaccinated their viral load is less.

If 28% of people are running around spreading this, you're not going to keep the vaccinated older people from getting even mildly sick or spreading it to their unvacinated parners or bridge partners. 

What I don't understand is what people like you hope to gain from not vaccinating everyone? What's the deal when the vaccinations have been proven by numbers to be so very low risk?

I could try to understand your POV back in Dec last year when there were lower vaccinated numbers to get data from. But now there are millions and millions of people in countries that can provide solid side effects data, what's in this for you if you claim to not be anti Vax? 

Some fear of genetic changes in the progeny of the young?

Come clean and we might not scorn your fears.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we put aside the fighting for one day and celebrate that 65% of Americans have had at least one dose of the vaccine.

KSFB.....I have decided to stop criticizing you. On a personal note I truly hope that you have taken the opportunity to get vaccinated .

The cases are falling in the US thru a combination of the Summer weather and vaccines.  I hope we can make one final push and get to at least 80% vaccinated . It would be an incredible achievement and I think would allow us to get closer to eliminating the spread of the disease.   The goal should be 100% of those over an appropriate age but I realize we cannot get there, but shoot for it.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Can we put aside the fighting for one day and celebrate that 65% of Americans have had at least one dose of the vaccine.

KSFB.....I have decided to stop criticizing you. On a personal note I truly hope that you have taken the opportunity to get vaccinated .

The cases are falling in the US thru a combination of the Summer weather and vaccines.  I hope we can make one final push and get to at least 80% vaccinated . It would be an incredible achievement and I think would allow us to get closer to eliminating the spread of the disease.   The goal should be 100% of those over an appropriate age but I realize we cannot get there, but shoot for it.

I mean what I said KSFB.....let us bury the hatchet.   You have different views but you care.    I believe that vaccines are generally safe and we are stimulating the body's own defense mechanism . You have concerns about longer term safety.  Lets leave it at that.

We both agree that the disease needs to be stopped. I hope you have been vaccinated. Have you?    Please consider ensuring that those near and dear to you have been vaccinated.  Millions of people have been vaccinated thus far with no ill effect. All of my family have been vaccinated since January/March and we are doing great.  As a vaccinated person I feel safer but I also feel a sense of doing my bit for the community at large and reducing spread.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/4/2021 at 12:39 AM, IStream said:

 Governor is floating the idea of tying the opening phases of the various counties to the percentage vaccinated

 

That was a sensible idea.

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I hope you have been vaccinated. Have you?

No I won't be getting vaccinated.  I have evaluated my individual risk from Covid-19 as low both short term and long term.  At this stage I do not consider that there is enough data regarding the long term safety of the various vaccines.  It is relevant to me that scientists and medical professionals that I trust share my concern.

11 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Please consider ensuring that those near and dear to you have been vaccinated. 

I will not be coercing or encourage anyone close to me to get vaccinated.  That is their individual choice based on their own individual risk assessment.  If they ask for my opinion then I will try to provide a balanced view.

It does worry me (actually it makes me quite angry) that children are being frightened into getting vaccinated when their level of risk from Covid-19 and all the variants to date is very very low.

11 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

As a vaccinated person I feel safer but I also feel a sense of doing my bit for the community at large and reducing spread.

It is great that you feel safer however I think you are misguided in thinking that you are doing anything for the community at large.  You individual action makes no difference to anyone except yourself and your single tick on or not on a statistic.  If I choose not to be vaccinated I have no impact on all the vulnerable people that have been vaccinated. 

I do find it objectionable that people such as yourself are turning being vaccinated into a moral high ground.  Are those that have had Covid-19 and recovered and justifiably choose not to get vaccinated the equivalent of lepers?  They are no different to yourself in that they have acquired immunity.  They should NOT be shamed into being vaccinated.

The virus still circulates if the population is vaccinated or not vaccinated - it will still mutate.  Hopefully it will mutate in the same direction as MERS and SARS-1 to the point that it becomes benign or non existent.  

 

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/health/article/a-tale-of-two-covid-nations-peter-hotez-interview-16253231.php

This is the latest interview with Dr. Peter Hotez of the Houston Medical Center - it's long so just posting the link, the Chronicle allows some free visits but if anyone has a problem accessing just let me know. This is actual data based on science. Sadly he and his co chair here have been getting death threats much like those directed at Dr. Fauci.

Can't fix stupid.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Wess said:

And yet still more than 99% people survive it. 

Often with long-haul symptoms affecting their quality of life, in some cases permanently.  You don't want to get this virus, and you don't want anyone else to get it either.  I hope you are vaccinated, and if not, please get vaccinated.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Often with long-haul symptoms affecting their quality of life, in some cases permanently.  You don't want to get this virus, and you don't want anyone else to get it either.  I hope you are vaccinated, and if not, please get vaccinated.

Yea not so much for me or anyone else I know who had it.  Not saying it doesn't happen but people die after getting hit by lighting and bitten by rattlesnakes too.  Oddly enough I still sail and backpack rather than hide in the house scared of life.

The press and politicians love to create and profit off panic.  You can fall for it or make intelligent risk based decisions and live your own life. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

No I won't be getting vaccinated.  I have evaluated my individual risk from Covid-19 as low both short term and long term.  At this stage I do not consider that there is enough data regarding the long term safety of the various vaccines.  It is relevant to me that scientists and medical professionals that I trust share my concern.

I will not be coercing or encourage anyone close to me to get vaccinated.  That is their individual choice based on their own individual risk assessment.  If they ask for my opinion then I will try to provide a balanced view.

It does worry me (actually it makes me quite angry) that children are being frightened into getting vaccinated when their level of risk from Covid-19 and all the variants to date is very very low.

It is great that you feel safer however I think you are misguided in thinking that you are doing anything for the community at large.  You individual action makes no difference to anyone except yourself and your single tick on or not on a statistic.  If I choose not to be vaccinated I have no impact on all the vulnerable people that have been vaccinated. 

I do find it objectionable that people such as yourself are turning being vaccinated into a moral high ground.  Are those that have had Covid-19 and recovered and justifiably choose not to get vaccinated the equivalent of lepers?  They are no different to yourself in that they have acquired immunity.  They should NOT be shamed into being vaccinated.

The virus still circulates if the population is vaccinated or not vaccinated - it will still mutate.  Hopefully it will mutate in the same direction as MERS and SARS-1 to the point that it becomes benign or non existent.  

 

"I won't be getting vaccinated.  I have evaluated my individual risk from Covid-19 as low both short term and long term. "

- Out of curiosity, what makes you low risk to getting Covid? 

"I do not consider that there is enough data regarding the long term safety of the various vaccines. "

- Are there any specific safety concerns that you have regarding the CV19 vaccine....any adverse side effects you anticipate, or just a general preference to "wait and see" ?

- How long wold you need vaccines to be in use to get that longer term data?  1 year 2 years?

- Do you have a general distrust of medicines and vaccines or specifically only cv19 vaccines because they appeared rushed?

"I think you are misguided in thinking that you are doing anything for the community at large.  You individual action makes no difference to anyone except yourself and your single tick on or not on a statistic.  If I choose not to be vaccinated I have no impact on all the vulnerable people that have been vaccinated. "

I truly disagree with this statement. Mathematically, the more people who are vaccinated, the less likely it is for break through infections. The vaccine only has a certain level of efficacy. Currently 70-90%. The two variables in eliminating a virus are (i) The efficacy of the vaccine and (ii) the proportion of the population vaccinated.  An efficient vaccine in a population where a low %age is vaccinated is less likely to eliminate the disease than a population with substantial vaccination rate.  Every individual who gets vaccinated is contributing to the elimination of the disease. The faster we create immunity, the less likely there are to be variations. Variations survive because they are more efficient (in a bad way) than the existing version.   There is no "New Zealand Variant" because the number of cases is so small.  More Vaccinations = less cases = less variations = less break throughs = a return to normality

Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

"I won't be getting vaccinated.  I have evaluated my individual risk from Covid-19 as low both short term and long term. "

- Out of curiosity, what makes you low risk to getting Covid? 

"I do not consider that there is enough data regarding the long term safety of the various vaccines. "

- Are there any specific safety concerns that you have regarding the CV19 vaccine....any adverse side effects you anticipate, or just a general preference to "wait and see" ?

- How long wold you need vaccines to be in use to get that longer term data?  1 year 2 years?

- Do you have a general distrust of medicines and vaccines or specifically only cv19 vaccines because they appeared rushed?

"I think you are misguided in thinking that you are doing anything for the community at large.  You individual action makes no difference to anyone except yourself and your single tick on or not on a statistic.  If I choose not to be vaccinated I have no impact on all the vulnerable people that have been vaccinated. "

I truly disagree with this statement. Mathematically, the more people who are vaccinated, the less likely it is for break through infections. The vaccine only has a certain level of efficacy. Currently 70-90%. The two variables in eliminating a virus are (i) The efficacy of the vaccine and (ii) the proportion of the population vaccinated.  An efficient vaccine in a population where a low %age is vaccinated is less likely to eliminate the disease than a population with substantial vaccination rate.  Every individual who gets vaccinated is contributing to the elimination of the disease. The faster we create immunity, the less likely there are to be variations. Variations survive because they are more efficient (in a bad way) than the existing version.   There is no "New Zealand Variant" because the number of cases is so small.  More Vaccinations = less cases = less variations = less break throughs = a return to normality

Rare we agree but I do agree your last paragraph for the most part.  But... and its a big but...

That is a theoretical argument and if someone has had covid or is of the age and health where their mortality risk from it is extremely low, then they are asked to take some risk (whatever the risk of the vaccine is and to be fair you have to admit there is some undefined and unknown risk from it) for little or no personal benefit, though yes there is a theoretical benefit to broader society. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Wess said:

Yea not so much for me or anyone else I know who had it.  Not saying it doesn't happen but people die after getting hit by lighting and bitten by rattlesnakes too.  Oddly enough I still sail and backpack rather than hide in the house scared of life.

The press and politicians love to create and profit off panic.  You can fall for it or make intelligent risk based decisions and live your own life. 

Hey Wess,

The difference is two fold.

1.  The probability of getting struck by lightening etc is very rare. The probability of getting covid if the pandemic is not controlled by vaccines is much higher.

2.  When you go hiking, you dont increase someone else's risk of getting struck by lightning .  By choosing to catch covid you increase the risk of someone else catching i from you.

One final point. The risk of you getting older is certain. As you get older your risk to covid increases. Unless we eliminate or constrain covid, we will create a reduction in life expectancy. 80 year olds are hiking and sailing.  Dont you want that to look forward to?   Covid can still be nipped in the bud with an aggressive global vaccination program over the next 2 years. After that????  

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Wess said:

Rare we agree but I do agree your last paragraph for the most part.  But... and its a big but...

That is a theoretical argument and if someone has had covid or is of the age and health where their mortality risk from it is extremely low, then they are asked to take some risk (whatever the risk of the vaccine is to be fair you have to admit there is some undefined and unknown risk) for little or no personal benefit, though yes there is a theoretical benefit to broader society. 

I think we agree on many things.

But yes we agree on that.

On a scale, the population ranges from low risk to high risk of covid and the vaccine risk (undefined) is constant. So the risk/return emphasis the "society return" at the lower end of the covid risk spectrum. I agree with what you say. 

But looked at another way, you are investing in your future.  Your risk will increase as you get older. If the disease is eliminated/contained by your taking a small risk now, you avoid a larger risk later.

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Hey Wess,

The difference is two fold.

1.  The probability of getting struck by lightening etc is very rare. The probability of getting covid if the pandemic is not controlled by vaccines is much higher.

2.  When you go hiking, you dont increase someone else's risk of getting struck by lightning .  By choosing to catch covid you increase the risk of someone else catching i from you.

One final point. The risk of you getting older is certain. As you get older your risk to covid increases. Unless we eliminate or constrain covid, we will create a reduction in life expectancy. 80 year olds are hiking and sailing.  Dont you want that to look forward to?   Covid can still be nipped in the bud with an aggressive global vaccination program over the next 2 years. After that????  

 

And this is where we part company because it seems to me you are deliberately misleading people to do what you want instead of letting them decide for themselves.  There are two side and you always leave out the other one.  I really don't care if anyone gets or doesn't get the vaccine.  I of course have a view and was happy my parent did but I would never tell them or my kids what was best for them

Yes the risk of getting struck by lighting or bitten by a rattlesnake and dying is low.  But for a young healthy person the risk of dying from covid is about equally low.  And lower yet if you have already had it.  It is not unreasonable at all for such a person to say they don't want the risk of the vaccine when there is little or no benefit to them and only a benefit to society.

One last point and don't confuse an internet game (SA) with real life. My family and I have a long history of public service to the extent they including one of my kids put their life on the line for tht belief.  So selfless service is not a foreign concept.  But society is so frayed and bipolar (and preachy) these days that its getting harder for many to do that.  As one individual who serves said to me recently... why should I get a vaccine that doesn't benefit me and only benefits a society where an increasing number don't care about me... why should I care about them.  I pointed out the obvious that he had already made the decision to serve his country so how was the vaccine different but equally agreed the double talk that comes from many and that it should be his decision and his alone.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

No I won't be getting vaccinated. 

image.png.2dc163295ed2bb69734f8b6de545923e.png

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I think we agree on many things.

But yes we agree on that.

On a scale, the population ranges from low risk to high risk of covid and the vaccine risk (undefined) is constant. So the risk/return emphasis the "society return" at the lower end of the covid risk spectrum. I agree with what you say. 

But looked at another way, you are investing in your future.  Your risk will increase as you get older. If the disease is eliminated/contained by your taking a small risk now, you avoid a larger risk later.

It time for my run so I gotta make this my last but I think that many live life differently than you think.

"You avoid a larger risk later." 

That is just not how I live my life nor do my friends.  Not saying its wrong but that is as foreign as me wearing a dress today. It just ain't gonna happen.  The wife and I will hike a rim to rim (off corridor trails) this Fall and certainly rattlesnakes will be a real risk as well as other critters. We have sailed across oceans.  We backpack and hike and climb peaks (14-ers) in the dead of winter.  Risk is part of life. 

In going for my run this morning (its a long run day and its hot and I don't carry water) I run the very real increased risk of a heart attack.  Why?  So I can be healthy and strong enough to do that R2R and climb the Grand this winter which is yet another risk.  Could I just sit on the couch and hide at home all scared of the world?  Sure.  Could I take more and more precautions and less risks so I might be around to see grandkids get married?  Sure.  But while that is a good decision for some its not for others.  I would rather be die than live like that and so would many others.

And for all the preaching the left does about this they just make it more likely that people will not get vaccinated. Give people the time and space to make their own decision about it instead of trying to beat them into submission.  For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and on covid and vaccine policies all that has happen is that the gap between the lions and the lambs has widened and where they used to coexist they can't so much anymore.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I also have a sense of service.  I realize the US (we are both Americans) has become more politically divided but I still find that most Americans and most of the people I know are generally good people. I dont choose my friends based on political views. 

I think a place to live is a better place if we all in our own small way, care about our community. As a doctor, perhaps I see this more than most. 

But at its simplest, the data thus far is that the vaccine is very safe. I understand that the longer it is around, the more confident you can feel about that but that is true of all vaccines and all medicines. 

I do feel it is okay to encourage people to get vaccinated , for their own health, and for society.  I strongly feel that my 21 year old son is safer now that he is vaccinated.  The vaccine is less risky than the disease. Sure, he may never have got the disease but I sleep better at night.

I try not to be misleading. I feel the uncertainties around the vaccine pertain more to whether they create sterilizing immunity and how long they remain effective.  I still see no real evidence of any significant adverse side effects.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Wess said:

It time for my run so I gotta make this my last but I think that many live life differently than you think.

"You avoid a larger risk later." 

That is just not how I live my life nor do my friends.  Not saying its wrong but that is as foreign as me wearing a dress today. It just ain't gonna happen.  The wife and I will hike a rim to rim (off corridor trails) this Fall and certainly rattlesnakes will be a real risk as well as other critters. We have sailed across oceans.  We backpack and hike and climb peaks (14-ers) in the dead of winter.  Risk is part of life. 

In going for my run this morning (its a long run day and its hot and I don't carry water) I run the very real increased risk of a heart attack.  Why?  So I can be healthy and strong enough to do that R2R and climb the Grand this winter which is yet another risk.  Could I just sit on the couch and hide at home all scared of the world?  Sure.  Could I take more and more precautions and less risks so I might be around to see grandkids get married?  Sure.  But while that is a good decision for some its not for others.  I would rather be die than live like that and so would many others.

And for all the preaching the left does about this they just make it more likely that people will not get vaccinated. Give people the time and space to make their own decision about it instead of trying to beat them into submission.  For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and on covid and vaccine policies all that has happen is that the gap between the lions and the lambs has widened and where they used to coexist they can't so much anymore.

Enjoy the rim to rim.   I did the one way 5 years ago. want to go back.

I do agree with much of what you say. Folks should make their own decisions.  I feel the urge to encourage vaccination, but more importantly the urge to encourage an informed decision.

I dont like all the misinformation out there. The unfounded rumors about vaccine side effects and the unproven alternatives like Ivermectin.

My informed recommendation is that folks should get vaccinated.  I dont think it should be in any way a political discussion. Left wing or right wing should have no bearing on what is purely a medical challenge.   

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Wess said:

Yea not so much for me or anyone else I know who had it.  Not saying it doesn't happen but people die after getting hit by lighting and bitten by rattlesnakes too.  Oddly enough I still sail and backpack rather than hide in the house scared of life.

The press and politicians love to create and profit off panic.  You can fall for it or make intelligent risk based decisions and live your own life. 

I understand.  You have completely bought into the anti-vax and covid-denier "everyone is going to die anyway" rhetoric.  You should be aware that no-one, not even during the most severe lockdown, "hid in their house" as you suggest.  

I fly gliders, and make intelligent risk-based decisions each time I fly.  I am flying later today. My choice is to go with science.  Where I live, politicians have not interfered with health officials who have been making all the decisions on pandemic protocols based on science.  The press merely reports what they are doing.  

Your paranoia about politicians and the press manipulating this pandemic is apparently deep-seated.   Of course, there are some countries where the pandemic has been politicized, such as the US.  If that is where you live, it is probably best to listen to the health officials and not the politicians.

There are going to be countries that will not allow you to enter if you are not vaccinated - are you ok with that?  Will you just not visit them?

Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

I understand.  You have completely bought into the anti-vax and covid-denier "everyone is going to die anyway" rhetoric.  You should be aware that no-one, not even during the most severe lockdown, "hid in their house" as you suggest.  

I fly gliders, and make intelligent risk-based decisions each time I fly.  I am flying later today. My choice is to go with science.  Where I live, politicians have not interfered with health officials who have been making all the decisions on pandemic protocols based on science.  The press merely reports what they are doing.  

Your paranoia about politicians and the press manipulating this pandemic is apparently deep-seated.   Of course, there are some countries where the pandemic has been politicized, such as the US.  If that is where you live, it is probably best to listen to the health officials and not the politicians.

There are going to be countries that will not allow you to enter if you are not vaccinated - are you ok with that?  Will you just not visit them?

I just want to say, I enjoy discussions with @Wess.  He is not really spouting ill informed anti-vax misinformation like some. I sense that he is a step across the line from some of us who are encouraging vaccination. He is inquiring , trying to be objective and currently has reservations about getting vaccinated. Unlike some, when Wes sees information that changes his mind, I believe he is open to changing his mind. He has celebrated older members of his family getting vaccinated.

I like to think, I believe I know, that if I see information emerge from the vaccination data that suggests I should adjust or even completely change my view, that I am open to changing my mind. 

Based on all the data thus far, the evidence is that these vaccines are safe. My belief is that some vaccines will prove to be much more effective than others and that the 20 or so vaccines emerging from trials etc will eventually come down to 2 or maybe 3 vaccines which will be global. I believe the safety data will be compelling and for 2 or 3 years there will be a global drive to vaccinate as many people as possible to eliminate "covid reservoirs" where the disease remains in circulation , to return at regular intervals.

Is there a risk in taking a vaccine now, compared to taking one 3 years from now? Its a bit like @Wess's rattlesnakes. Yes there is a remote possibility that one of the vaccines has an effect that was not discovered during phase 1, 2 and 3 trials.  But we have beaten the path thoroughly and we are pretty sure there are no rattlers. Meanwhile we can return to life now, rather than wait 3 years.  For me, the analogy is that taking the vaccine and embracing one's fellows again is a bit like hiking the rim this year rather than waiting 3 years and the rattler risk is a small price to pay.  Same analogy different outcome for two different people.

The pure anti-vaxxers, I think are a menace to themselves and society.

The relunctant vaxxer ...I believe should be encouraged to participate in discussion without insults.  I will be the first to Hi-five Wess when he tells us he has been vaccinated.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is this kind of social media commentary that makes me upset, from a complete idiot called Mike Adams who claims to be a health expert:

Quote

There sure are a lot of coincidences taking place lately, especially in those who are being injected with spike protein bioweapons labeled “vaccines.”

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

It is this kind of social media commentary that makes me upset, from a complete idiot called Mike Adams who claims to be a health expert:

 

I am sure Moke Sadams also bashed Lyme vaccine. Thstvis a sad tale of irresponsiblevmickrake reporting

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/17/2021 at 3:24 PM, Shortforbob said:

If 28% of people are running around spreading this, you're not going to keep the vaccinated older people from getting even mildly sick or spreading it to their unvacinated parners or bridge partners. 

A bit silly of them if they are in a vulnerable age group and have decided not to get vaccinated and still go to the Bridge Club.

So you'd prefer that the 28% that are not at risk get vaccinated to protect the silly old Bridge player?

Don't you see the contradiction and hypocrisy in your argument?

If you have got vaccinated whether I get vaccinated or not doesn't change your risk profile.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/17/2021 at 3:24 PM, Shortforbob said:

What I don't understand is what people like you hope to gain from not vaccinating everyone? What's the deal when the vaccinations have been proven by numbers to be so very low risk?

Because they are NOT "very low risk" for EVERYONE.  The data for young people and especially children is minimal.  Some if it isn't good.

Principles of science and ethical medicine are that you don't treat not at risk individuals with a treatment that has or potentially has a greater risk than the disease.

You and your ilk bang on about science and statistics yet ignore both when it doesn't suit your narrative.

One particular statistic that you ignore is that the risk of death or illness for children from Covid-19 is significantly lower than common influenza.  That is even after knowing that many countries selectively vaccinate the very young and very old for influenza.  Why because they are the vulnerable groups.  They don't vaccinate those least at risk!

Yet you want to jab children to protect the silly old Bridge Player!  

  • Like 1
  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Often with long-haul symptoms affecting their quality of life, in some cases permanently. 

How many are affected permanently?

What is the difference in comparison to other respiratory diseases such as pneumonia and influenza?

Which age groups are affected more than others?

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

- Out of curiosity, what makes you low risk to getting Covid? 

I'm under the age of 60.

I'm fit and healthy and live an active lifestyle.

I have no comorbidities.

I'm not obese or have diabetes.

I don't live in an institution such as a retirement home or prison.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Are there any specific safety concerns that you have regarding the CV19 vaccine....any adverse side effects you anticipate, or just a general preference to "wait and see" ?

I have concerns that a new type of vaccine that has a new and novel mode of manufacture and operation of which there has been none previously approved is still very very experimental.

Their development and manufacture has occurred in world record time.

They as yet only have EUA.

There are worrying examples of adverse side effects that contrary to some of the narrative on this forum are at levels greater than average especially amongst certain sub-population groups.  Especially when it is accepted by the CDC and FDA that adverse reactions are always undereported.

I have concerns that the placebo and blind trials have been dropped.  I don't consider the collection of data from the experimental mass vaccination of people as being accurate nor ever able to be accurate to draw valid safety conclusions.  The line "oh well just imagine how many more would have died if we hadn't vaccinated" doesn't wash with me.

I'm concerned that not enough specidic research has been done on the replication of the vaccine spike proteins in the body and their ability to traverse internal membrane barriers.  Up until 2 weeks ago I had only come across one paper researching this area.  More are starting to emerge but I find it disturbing that this research wasn't part of the initial trials.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

How long wold you need vaccines to be in use to get that longer term data?  1 year 2 years?

At least 2 years however my approach would be to allow EUA for those individuals that have high risk profiles.  I certainly would not be vaccinating children.  I'm about to post some very good news Research out of Sweden that shows Covid-19 had little impact on children that were allowed to continue to attend school and of all groups they had least impact on transmission.

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

When you go hiking, you dont increase someone else's risk of getting struck by lightning .  By choosing to catch covid you increase the risk of someone else catching i from you.

Going hiking increases the risk of someone else having to go hiking to rescue you if you get into difficulty.

Choosing not to get vaccinated doesn't increase the risk of someone who has got vaccinated of catching Covid-19

There are two persons who haven't been vaccinated in your scenario.  They have both chosen to take and accept the risk of catching Covid-19 from a third unknown person who may or may not be vaccinated.

@EYESAILOR you are either being deliberately disingenuous in your pro-vaccination argument or choosing to ignore what a vaccine does.  A vaccine doesn't stop you from being infected however it improves significantly your chances of not getting seriously ill or dying.

A vaccine will also reduce the viral load in most cases but not all (there have been examples of vaccinated superspreaders in the past) so theoretically the virus will cease to circulate.  Which is the base principle of the theory of herd immunity which is now acceptable.

On another point as I predicted many weeks ago as the vaccination programmes ramp up how Covid-19 cases are measured would change. This had happened in the UK and elsewhere.  Why?

One reason is that continuing with the recording of low viral load asymptomatic cases as Covid-19 doesn't reflect well on the efficacy of the vaccination programmes.  You can be vaccinated but still return a positive PCR test.

Interesting how "the science" and its narrative is changing in that one.

Classic example in NZ this past week where a small community was starting to be placed into lockdown because a child returned what was reported as a "mild positive" Covid-19 PCR test.  The family was only tested because they were preparing to travel overseas.

Turns out that the child had a rhinovirus aka a common cold.  Why the positive to Covid-19?  The positve result didn't turn up at 23 replication cycles but it did at 35!

Now has that happened anywhere else in the world?

I'm interested to hear what the followers of science say now about that.

Or even answer how the Delta aka India variant is so much more transmissible and deadly according to UK and AUS "scientists" than it is in its country of origin India?!

  • Downvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

How many are affected permanently?

What is the difference in comparison to other respiratory diseases such as pneumonia and influenza?

Which age groups are affected more than others?

To br fair, the long haul symptoms are not resporstory. They are vizarre. Among yoing.

Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Choosing not to get vaccinated doesn't increase the risk of someone who has got vaccinated of catching Covid-19

Vaccines are 70-90% efficient. The probability of a vaccinated person getting covid is directly correlated to the %age of the population that is vaccinated. In countries with a higher proportion of the population that are vaccianted, there will be less breakthrough cases than a population with a low %age vaccinated.

The country with 75% or more vaccinated is likely to have an infection rate so low that the probability of a vaccinated person getting covid is extraordinary low. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

 

@EYESAILOR you are either being deliberately disingenuous in your pro-vaccination argument or choosing to ignore what a vaccine does.  A vaccine doesn't stop you from being infected however it improves significantly your chances of not getting seriously ill or dying.

A vaccine will also reduce the viral load in most cases but not all (there have been examples of vaccinated superspreaders in the past) so theoretically the virus will cease to circulate.  Which is the base principle of the theory of herd immunity which is now acceptable.

Actually I have posted this before. A vaccine does not miraculously prevent the virus molecules from entering your body. It sets up antibodies and T cells to attack the virus when it arrives in your body.

If the vaccine is particularly effective, it will be a sterilizing vaccine, where the attack is so fast and comprehensive that the virus does not have a chance to replicate in any kind of numbers and thus the host will not shed viral molecules in enough quantity to infect another host.  WE do not know yet whether the vaccines are effective as sterilizing vaccines. 

Looking at the animal studies where they did challenge trials on monkeys there are some grounds for thinking the mRNA vaccine might be a sterilizing vaccine but this is squidgy data because it really has to be based on human data in the field.

So I think we agree on this point. More data needed. Some grounds for optimism.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Wess said:

It time for my run so I gotta make this my last but I think that many live life differently than you think.

"You avoid a larger risk later." 

That is just not how I live my life nor do my friends.  Not saying its wrong but that is as foreign as me wearing a dress today. It just ain't gonna happen.  The wife and I will hike a rim to rim (off corridor trails) this Fall and certainly rattlesnakes will be a real risk as well as other critters. We have sailed across oceans.  We backpack and hike and climb peaks (14-ers) in the dead of winter.  Risk is part of life. 

In going for my run this morning (its a long run day and its hot and I don't carry water) I run the very real increased risk of a heart attack.  Why?  So I can be healthy and strong enough to do that R2R and climb the Grand this winter which is yet another risk.  Could I just sit on the couch and hide at home all scared of the world?  Sure.  Could I take more and more precautions and less risks so I might be around to see grandkids get married?  Sure.  But while that is a good decision for some its not for others.  I would rather be die than live like that and so would many others.

And for all the preaching the left does about this they just make it more likely that people will not get vaccinated. Give people the time and space to make their own decision about it instead of trying to beat them into submission.  For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction and on covid and vaccine policies all that has happen is that the gap between the lions and the lambs has widened and where they used to coexist they can't so much anymore.

What the heck does going on a hike have to do with getting vaccinated so you won't transmit a disease to others, including those grand kids you want to see.  Vaccination is not only about you or mitigating the virus' effects on you.  It is about doing your part in protecting your neighbors, family and community.  And getting back to normal. 

Others, who are getting their vaccination, are protecting you so you can go on that hike.  Maybe you could do the same for them.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

At least 2 years however my approach would be to allow EUA for those individuals that have high risk profiles.  I certainly would not be vaccinating children.  I'm about to post some very good news Research out of Sweden that shows Covid-19 had little impact on children that were allowed to continue to attend school and of all groups they had least impact on transmission.

So by June 2022, you will be looking at the safety data and contemplating whether it is safe for you to get vaccinated. 

Link to post
Share on other sites