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When offered the Vaccine, will you take it?


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5 hours ago, hobot said:

Once home, I got my first vaccination shot as soon as I could and second shot will be this upcoming Saturday.

The second Moderna shot laid me very low.  I couldn't do anything but sleep for the entire day after the shot, then felt much better the next day after that.  Good luck.

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The private sector has embarked on a major campaign to reassure the public that they will not release a vaccine until they are confident it is safe and effective. We can expect a joint statement from

As many of you know I am right of center politically.  I dont think vaccines are a political issue or at least they should not be.  My family are all vaccinated. I tried to think of how I should

You are such a bag of shit wrapped in a thin veneer of pseudo self esteem. You are a walking around killer of strangers free riding on those who got vaccinated. Sponger.

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1 hour ago, Se7en said:

Actually, it seems the young are more at risk of clotting. I believe that the theory is that the stronger your immune system the higher the clotting risk. Last few publicised cases were in 50 year olds, with one death of a 52 yo. 

It seems that vaccination supply is adequate currently, not hearing folk having to wait more than a day or two

But your over 80s are more likely to get sicker if they get covid and they are given weaker protection. 67% against delta after 2 jabs and they wait a long time for the second jab. 

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13 hours ago, random. said:

Skipping quarantine for the vaccinated is the stupidest $ driven idea I ever heard,

Vaccinated people still get infected and spread the virus.

Not happening where I live.

Not yet. But it will. It has to.

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8 hours ago, Rain Man said:

The big unknown is how long the vaccines are effective for.   I think we will start seeing cases go up again in around six months as the long-term effectiveness of the vaccine decreases and countries open up their borders allowing the variants to spread further.

It's not cases that matter, its hospitalisations and deaths.

Being infected regularly by this virus could become normal.

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50 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Shingles vaccine is highly recommended by doctors in this area.  I have not looked at it closely.

I got it. I've had friends that came down with shingles. It really sucks... stinks, too.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Oh OK so the annual Influenza "season" that corresponds with changes in environmental/climate and has been studied for decades doesn't happen?

The fact that low UV, higher humidity and colder conditions favour most respiratory viruses and associated diseases?

So who isn't too bright in this debate?

Well, you're not to bright, if you've going to compare an influenza virus with a corona virus..   

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Mr Clew got a mild case of shingles at 58. I went and got a vaccine asap. He did too after he recovered. 

Then we both got Shingrix (sp?) A couple of years ago. 

I basically will get vaccinated against anything. Typhoid, whatever. The only snafu was MMR because I didn't ever have Rubella. Horrible joint pain 2 weeks later whilst on vacation. Apparently that's quite likely in older females. But glad I did it overall. 

 

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2 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

It's not cases that matter, its hospitalisations and deaths.

Being infected regularly by this virus could become normal.

Yes, the UK is currently entering a 4th wave in cases, but the number of deaths has not increased.  46% of the population are fully vaccinated.  Apparently that isn't enough to stop the variants, but it is enough to keep the deaths under control.

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26 minutes ago, Rain Man said:

Yes, the UK is currently entering a 4th wave in cases, but the number of deaths has not increased.  46% of the population are fully vaccinated.  Apparently that isn't enough to stop the variants, but it is enough to keep the deaths under control.

I dont think you meant what you said. The number of deaths has increased . 27 more Brits died in the last 24 hours from Covid 19.

I think you meant the rate of deaths has not increased.

Sadly we have become so inured by this blasted disease that 27 in the UK and 8,000+ world wide  is an okay day. 

I feel like Im watching the closing weeks of a world war when every death is frankly getting unnecessary.  We have the vaccine. These fathers, sons, mothers and daughters do not have to die prematurely. 

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27 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I dont think you meant what you said. The number of deaths has increased . 27 more Brits died in the last 24 hours from Covid 19.

I think you meant the rate of deaths has not increased.

Sadly we have become so inured by this blasted disease that 27 in the UK and 8,000+ world wide  is an okay day. 

I feel like Im watching the closing weeks of a world war when every death is frankly getting unnecessary.  We have the vaccine. These fathers, sons, mothers and daughters do not have to die prematurely. 

It's horrible. But nothing changes people's minds.

The on-air warnings on ED or bipolar depression aadvertisements sound far worse than those for any of the vaccines. But people go get those but not a vaccine.  I know you care. I am working on not caring. As my doctor said yesterday, "everybody is either vaccinated or will get covid. Trust your vaccine. "  

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8 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

As my doctor said yesterday, "everybody is either vaccinated or will get covid. Trust your vaccine. "  

This is exactly right. Delta is ~50% more infectious than Alpha, which is ~40% more infectious than the original strain. All in, that's about 2X so what worked early on (masks and social distancing) to get R<1 no longer does. If you're not vaccinated, mask or no mask, you will get it. It's only a matter of time. 

About 4 weeks ago I told all my vaccine holdout friends and co-workers to get their vaccinations immediately or they'd be staring down Delta's barrel about 6 weeks later. Here we are now with Delta at ~25% prevalence and lo and behold my co-worker just came down with it from a trade show in Dallas with 600 of his closest friends and nary a mask in sight. 

These people will only learn the hard way.

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4 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

But your over 80s are more likely to get sicker if they get covid and they are given weaker protection. 67% against delta after 2 jabs and they wait a long time for the second jab. 

Agreed

They were able to get the vaccine from the begining of the year though, most should have had second dose by now. (My parents are early 70s and have had both doses) Again, these decisions were made prior to delta being on the scene.

They will be first in line for a booster from whatever is the best option at the time. That should start being available at the end of this year. And there is no way the Aust government is brave enough to open the boarders and stop pursuing elimination prior to the end of this year.

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5 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Shingles vaccine is highly recommended by doctors in this area.  I have not looked at it closely.

Well Hope-Simpson discovered the relationship between Chickenpox and Shingles (Herpes Zoster).  It would be interesting to know what he would have thought of the vaccine for it.  There are some anti-virals that work as well but you have to first identify you have Shingles and then take it while the active eruption is occurring.  

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4 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Well, you're not to bright, if you've going to compare an influenza virus with a corona virus..   

Why not?  They are both a virus transmitted via aerosols, they affect the respiratory system, they are seasonal, they both can cause heart and lung inflammation.  The CFR and IFR for Covid lies between the Spanish Influenza and the Common Influenza.  Although for Covid it is skewed greatly towards the older age cohorts whereas serious illness from influenza is more likely with the young and old.

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

This is exactly right. Delta is ~50% more infectious than Alpha, which is ~40% more infectious than the original strain. All in, that's about 2X so what worked early on (masks and social distancing) to get R<1 no longer does. If you're not vaccinated, mask or no mask, you will get it. It's only a matter of time. 

 

I'd be interested to see the source data for your statement on the various variant infectivity.  

BTW way 50% more than something that is 40% more than 1 isn't close to 200% or 2 times 1.

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

 

BTW way 50% more than something that is 40% more than 1 isn't close to 200% or 2 times 1.

It is exactly 2.1X 1.

Math is

1x 1.4 X 1.5 = 2.1 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I'd be interested to see the source data for your statement on the various variant infectivity. 

MikeyKateInvermectin.jpg.38d4f32c23f346754c34fc486effeae9.jpg

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4 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I'd be interested to see the source data for your statement on the various variant infectivity.  

BTW way 50% more than something that is 40% more than 1 isn't close to 200% or 2 times 1.

It is very close to 200% or 2 times.   It is 210% or 2.1 times. Istreams calculation is correct. You underestimate the power of compounding 

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3 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:
5 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

BTW way 50% more than something that is 40% more than 1 isn't close to 200% or 2 times 1.

It is exactly 2.1X 1.

Math is

1x 1.4 X 1.5 = 2.1 

:lol:

Clearly your education in mathematics is inferior to KSFB/Mikey's vast intellect!

- DSK

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So you nutters still following the science?  Still convinced there is no risk from the vaccine for those young and healthy and absolutely convinced their risk from COVID is far worse?

Just had breakfast this morning with another one of those young and healthy who had COVID (didn't even know it until tested) and is very glad she didn't get the vaccine. Harvard graduate BTW.

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

So you nutters still following the science?  Still convinced there is no risk from the vaccine for those young and healthy and absolutely convinced their risk from COVID is far worse?

Just had breakfast this morning with another one of those young and healthy who had COVID (didn't even know it until tested) and is very glad she didn't get the vaccine. Harvard graduate BTW.

Good for her.

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

Brain shrinkage is an effect from covid. Had covid?

Well with that logic I am pretty sure most here have, especially you!

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

So you nutters still following the science?  Still convinced there is no risk from the vaccine for those young and healthy and absolutely convinced their risk from COVID is far worse?

Just had breakfast this morning with another one of those young and healthy who had COVID (didn't even know it until tested) and is very glad she didn't get the vaccine. Harvard graduate BTW.

Nobody ever said there was NO risk from any vaccine.

And it's obvious from even the most distant foggy view of reality, the risk of the disease is far far great than the risk of the virus.

- DSK

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21 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

the risk of the disease is far far great than the risk of the virus.

- DSK

Ummmm.....uh, well.  OK

If the disease is believing most of the crap posted in this forum posted by those scared of their own shadow, believing everything the press and government says, and incapable of thinking for themselves or valuing their freedom then YES, I agree.

I think the disease you refer to is socialist democrat leftist elites with a comorbidity of helplessness, a fear of hard work, a love of hand-outs, and a phobia of self reliance.  In other words, wimps.

Sorry couldn't resist.  I know what you meant. I do disagree for certain segments of society I think what you mean is far from proven to be true.  Very far.  And quite possibly false.

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18 minutes ago, Wess said:

Ummmm.....uh, well.  OK

If the disease is believing most of the crap posted in this forum posted by those scared of their own shadow, believing everything the press and government says, and incapable of thinking for themselves or valuing their freedom then YES, I agree.

I think the disease you refer to is socialist democrat leftist elites with a comorbidity of helplessness, a fear of hard work, a love of hand-outs, and a phobia of self reliance.  In other words, wimps.

Sorry couldn't resist.  I know what you meant. I do disagree for certain segments of society I think what you mean is far from proven to be true.  Very far.  And quite possibly false.

Let me put it this way...

I'm sure when you imagine great wind, imagine that you've nailed the start, imagine that you pick every shift, you also imagine that you win the race.

How many people have had the disease and how many have had the vaccine? Far more have had the vaccine, in the US.

How many people have died of the disease, and how many of the vaccine?

If you imagine that over 600,000 people have died of the vaccine, or imagine that this rather basic number has somehow been a lie and a hoax, then sure you imagine that the vaccine is more dangerous.

Having imagination is important.

Being in touch with reality is important too.

- DSK

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You fail to grasp the concept of and have read the words... segment of society.  Different groups are at very very very different risks relative to COVID. If you can't understand or acknowledge that you kinda out yourself as being in the aforementioned group no? I was very glad my parents got the vaccine.  It was scientifically pointless for me to.  I don't care and certainly can support and agree the many young and healthy and well educated and informed that opt not to. Including my own kid if that is what they decided.  Its their life!

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Wess, you argue with long past knowledge in an ongoing situation and yet you want to deal with absolutes.

You are dismissing the evolution of the variants, those we know of and those that will follow. The pandemic is in a transitional phase, shifting from acute to chronic because we failed to squash it in time. The world population will have to deal with this for some time. Years, actually.

Europe is openenig up just about everything for anyone, people are engaging in all sorts of long missed or restricted activities and we have that idiotic soccer EM roaming through the continent, with packed arenas. The vaccines are now the only thing that could prevent big, fat fourth wave this fall and winter, courtesy of Delta and offspring.

Shall we pick this up next year, same date?

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4 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

Oh, you care. You're afraid of the vaccine. :lol:

That you have no clue how absolutely wrong your statement is on so many levels says everything about the debate that is ongoing in society.

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1 minute ago, Wess said:

That you have no clue how absolutely wrong your statement is on so many levels says everything about the debate that is ongoing in society.

And you have spent God knows how many hours building up this huge cardhouse of denier-facts, all because deep down, mama's little boy is scared of the vaccine. Give us a break!

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28 minutes ago, Grog said:

Wess, you argue with long past knowledge in an ongoing situation and yet you want to deal with absolutes.

You are dismissing the evolution of the variants, those we know of and those that will follow. The pandemic is in a transitional phase, shifting from acute to chronic because we failed to squash it in time. The world population will have to deal with this for some time. Years, actually.

Europe is openenig up just about everything for anyone, people are engaging in all sorts of long missed or restricted activities and we have that idiotic soccer EM roaming through the continent, with packed arenas. The vaccines are now the only thing that could prevent big, fat fourth wave this fall and winter, courtesy of Delta and offspring.

Shall we pick this up next year, same date?

It was highly likely from day 1 almost 1 and a half years ago now, that this would be the case no matter what you did or do.  This is not MERS or SARS. 

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2 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

And you have spent God knows how many hours building up this huge cardhouse of denier-facts, all because deep down, mama's little boy is scared of the vaccine. Give us a break!

If you say so.  To each his or her own.  But alas you are still wrong.

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

 

Just had breakfast this morning with another one of those young and healthy who had COVID (didn't even know it until tested) and is very glad she didn't get the vaccine. Harvard graduate BTW.

Have you had breakfast with any young and healthy folks who have had the vaccine and very glad they got the vaccine? Yours is a sample of one and  dangerous as a result.

The reality is that covid passes many young people with little immediate ill effect.  However the number of young people hospitalized as a result of covid, although small, is still greater than the number of people hospitalized as a result of the vaccine. 

Thus far we have not discovered any long term ill effects from the vaccine. We are seeing some long term effects of catching covid.

I dont understand the argument that the entire virus molecule is less harmful than the spike protein on its own.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

You fail to grasp the concept of and have read the words... segment of society.  Different groups are at very very very different risks relative to COVID. If you can't understand or acknowledge that you kinda out yourself as being in the aforementioned group no? I was very glad my parents got the vaccine.  It was scientifically pointless for me to.  I don't care and certainly can support and agree the many young and healthy and well educated and informed that opt not to. Including my own kid if that is what they decided.  Its their life!

Different groups are at very very very different risks relative to COVID:

This is true.

However each group should still logically choose the optimal choice for their group, even if the difference between the choices is less extreme.

It was scientifically pointless for me to. 

I doubt it from all I hear .

Ah well.

 

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I know dozens of young healthy folks that have gotten it.  Are they happy about it?  No not really; they were essentially forced into it because what they do, who they are, and what stage of their "career" they were in. They really didn't have a choice in the matter.  All 4000 of them and another 1000 or so this summer.  From long conversations over the dinner table with many of them I would say around 30% saw it as a non-event (not happy or sad just easier to go along), and 60% saw it as they had no realistic option so definitely not happy.  I do think its fair to say they were happy when it was done and they were set free so to speak.

And you don't have to understand the argument.  Its none of your business frankly.  Their body; their decision.  You have no moral right to impose your decision or rationale on them.

It amazes me how many there are like you you feel so superior as to think they should tell someone else what to do with their body and their healthcare decisions.  And Lord knows you will drone on endless telling them...  my gosh you sure do like to push your Kool Aid on others Dr. Jones.

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The best you got is memes. LOL, OK.

That you think I care what you think is so cute.

I am just here to laugh at the folks on the other side of the fence.  Same as you likely.

The good news is (though you wont believe it) is both sides are going to die at about the same rate when looking at it in the end (which is years away).

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Just now, Wess said:

both sides are going to die at about the same rate when looking at it in the end (which is years away).

You say that in the face of the fact that Covid has dropped US life expectancy by 2 years...but if you get vaccinated, you have almost zero risk of being hospitalized or dying of it.  No amount of facts will sway you. Which leads me to the conclusion that you've made up your mind due to something inside you more overwhelming than fact. Deep-seated fear is a common reason to reject fact and abandon critical thinking.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Ummmm.....uh, well.  OK

If the disease is believing most of the crap posted in this forum posted by those scared of their own shadow, believing everything the press and government says, and incapable of thinking for themselves or valuing their freedom then YES, I agree.

I think the disease you refer to is socialist democrat leftist elites with a comorbidity of helplessness, a fear of hard work, a love of hand-outs, and a phobia of self reliance.  In other words, wimps.

Sorry couldn't resist.  I know what you meant. I do disagree for certain segments of society I think what you mean is far from proven to be true.  Very far.  And quite possibly false.

This is probably intended as humor and I have risen to the bait.

The vaccine has absolutely nothing to do with politics or hand outs or leftist elites or self reliance.  

It is really annoying to me that last summer /fall. The left wing amongst you would not trust the vaccine because TRUMP was not to be trusted and the republican party would somehow force the fDA to approve an unsafe vaccine.

Now its a 180 and suddenly vaccines are seen as a left wing conspiracy by the right wing and getting a vaccine is a fundamental abrogation of your freedom.

What utter horse shit!

Its is VERY SIMPLE.

There are two apolitical reasons to get a vaccine.

1. Your own health.   The vaccines significantly reduce the probability of getting a nasty disease, and will help eliminate it so that your economy (you know the one that gives young people jobs and opportunities) can get back on its feet.

2. Because you are blessed and damn lucky to be American. With that good fortune comes certain responsibilities. You tell us about a family of service , with generations who have served this great country of ours. How far the apple has rolled from the tree. Ignoring the community aspect of a vaccinated nation is ignoring our common service to country.

I could accept your argument if the reason you are not vaccinated is that you fear a yet undiscovered adverse effect and simply want to wait and study the data as the vaccine has been around longer with a larger population. I might disagree with that POV but I would understand and respect it.   But this horse manure about "freedom" and "self sufficiency" is really annoying.

I have never taken a hand out my whole life.  I worked to go to college. My sister and I were first generation to go to college.  I worked thru college med school and was blessed by the meritocratic opportunities offered by America to get into one of its great universities. When I completed my fellowship I hung up my own shingle on day 1. I have never worked for anyone or depended on anyone. I have created jobs. I have given back to society because I appreciate so much what this country offers. I am a passionate patriot despite all of our flaws, I believe America offers a beacon of democracy, freedom under the law and opportunities like no other.  So do not preach to me about "freedom", "self sufficiency"  .

If you are worried about adverse side effects....just say that....the data will either reassure you over time or it will affirm your fears. I believe it will be the former.

Phew rant over.

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26 minutes ago, Wess said:

It amazes me how many there are like you you feel so superior as to think they should tell someone else what to do with their body and their healthcare decisions.  And Lord knows you will drone on endless telling them...  my gosh you sure do like to push your Kool Aid on others Dr. Jones.

 Wess I dont have a superiority complex.

I have been far more respectful of the vaccine hesitant on these forums than others. I have engaged KSB is respectful debate.

I do not think I am superior to you.

However my job , hour after hour after hour is telling other people what I recommend with their body and if they accept my recommendation, doing something complicated, difficult and oft times risky to their body.  Healthcare decisions are my life. So I guess I am not shy about expressing an opinion. But it is that an opinion. Like in my real life, you are free to get a second opinion.

FWIW, there is so many more risky procedures than taking a vaccine....but few with such a beneficial outcome.  I see it through a different lens.

But I enjoy the debate ,

Just dont accuse me of lacking self sufficiency :)  It hits a spot. Sorry for my earlier rant.

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7 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

1. Your own health.   The vaccines significantly reduce the probability of getting a nasty disease, and will help eliminate it so that your economy (you know the one that gives young people jobs and opportunities) can get back on its feet.

Herd Immunity will help eliminate if indeed it can be eliminated.  I fear that the evolution of the virus itself will determine if it is eliminated.  SARS-1 and MERS seem to eliminate themselves without the level of human intervention we are seeing with SARS-2.

Of course the there are two paths to the goal of Herd Immunity one just as effective as the other.

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3 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

The left wing amongst you would not trust the vaccine because TRUMP was not to be trusted and the republican party would somehow force the fDA to approve an unsafe vaccine.

I think you are just trying to be nice by conceding something that wasn't really a thing. The blue regions always supported vaccines, no?

Then again, most of my educated Repub friends in eastern NC were pro vaccine when it came time to decide whether or not to get it themselves. Education has a lot to do with who is getting vaccinated and who isn't. Currently in our area, the rate for adults is in the low 40%.  In the Raleigh-Durham area, with higher rates of education, it's 60%.

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Its not about politics or ideology for me.  I see no difference between Trump and Biden and think the world would be better place without either of them.  I would quite happily dance on the grave of either and both.  One just happens to be a better liar than the other.

And my views on the vaccine haven't changed with the administration.  If I was asked outside my role and professional capacity what my personal opinion was - and I would only offer up thoughts if asked... I said if one is elderly go get it as fast as you can, middle aged I would say its a good idea for most especially if you haven't had the disease, and if young and healthy I would say I don't want to offer an opinion because its not a clear cut choice to me.

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11 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

I could accept your argument if the reason you are not vaccinated is that you fear a yet undiscovered adverse effect and simply want to wait and study the data as the vaccine has been around longer with a larger population.

My hesitancy is two fold - one there ARE adverse effects and just like Covid-19 I have no idea if I will be one of those that experience a severe adverse reaction.  When viewing my risk of a serious illness from Covid-19 I'm happy to take the risk.

The second reason is yes there may well be long term effects that have yet to emerge from the vaccines particularly the two that have used a new and novel approach namely the Moderna and Pzifer vaccines.  It concerns me that Phase 3 trials are not completed AND the fact that they will now not conform to previously mandated protocols. 

The "lets vaccinate everyone and use that as the experiment/trial" flies in the face of everything I was taught about scientific trials at university.  That is another reason why I think it is ludicrous to vaccinate people who have already acquired immunity by recovering from a Covid-19 infection.  Why unnecessarily confound the "experiment" data even more when you don't need to?!

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I honestly don't think a doctor respectfully speaking truth to hesitancy is doing any good in this forum. In the actual world, maybe. But not here. It's admirable but just fuels the fire of hesitancy. 

I mean, people eat rare chicken at bbqs. They eat food that drops on the floor in bars. But potential side effects nobody has noticed yet...ooooh the horror.

It's like a poster "your grandparents were called to fight WWII. You're being asked to get a vaccine."

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1 hour ago, NeedAClew said:

It's like a poster "your grandparents were called to fight WWII. You're being asked to get a vaccine."

Silly twit. It’s not like that at all. It’s more like I felt called to serve my country and am… but not to be part of your politically driven science experiment. Go experiment on yourself wimp. 

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 You are such a bag of shit wrapped in a thin veneer of pseudo self esteem. You are a walking around killer of strangers free riding on those who got vaccinated. Sponger.

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And you are a self righteous POS who couldn't find your own way out of a paperbag and I don't give one crap about.  Have a nice day LOL!  :P

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11 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

 You are such a bag of shit wrapped in a thin veneer of pseudo self esteem. You are a walking around killer of strangers free riding on those who got vaccinated. Sponger.

Yesterday's post of the day!

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16 hours ago, Wess said:

You fail to grasp the concept of and have read the words... segment of society.  Different groups are at very very very different risks relative to COVID. If you can't understand or acknowledge that you kinda out yourself as being in the aforementioned group no? I was very glad my parents got the vaccine.  It was scientifically pointless for me to.  I don't care and certainly can support and agree the many young and healthy and well educated and informed that opt not to. Including my own kid if that is what they decided.  Its their life!

Sure, everybody can make their own decision no matter how irrational it is.

There is no actual science that would support getting a vaccine being "pointless" ... I suspect a hoax

- DSK

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12 hours ago, Wess said:

Silly twit. It’s not like that at all. It’s more like I felt called to serve my country and am… but not to be part of your politically driven science experiment. Go experiment on yourself wimp. 

Wess, I would not put it in the same terms as Clew but you have to admit that those who are vaccinated feel they are giving a free ride to those who are not.

In this way:  The odds of you getting covid are significantly reduced by the fact that 2/3rds of the population around you are getting vaccinated. If you dont get covid, it is almost certainly due to the reduced spread created by the vaccine.

If you do get covid, and inevitably give it to somebody else, it will be because you exercised you choice not to get vaccinated. 

The reason that the folks who got vaccinated, young and old, feel a degree of resentment towards people like yourself is that your actions prolong the circulation of the disease , increase the likelihood of higher risk variants, increase the risk of getting covid (a proportion of vaccinated people will get sick if other hosts continue to spread the disease) and delay the return to normal.

Their resentment is natural.  They see you as getting a free ride from their vaccination and they feel you are increasing the risk of infection to them and their families. 

one person does not make a difference, but 60% of the population who get vaccinated are going to resent the 40% who did not.

Your arguments are well constructed but I understand the resentment.

 

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17 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Wess, I would not put it in the same terms as Clew but you have to admit that those who are vaccinated feel they are giving a free ride to those who are not.

In this way:  The odds of you getting covid are significantly reduced by the fact that 2/3rds of the population around you are getting vaccinated. If you dont get covid, it is almost certainly due to the reduced spread created by the vaccine.

If you do get covid, and inevitably give it to somebody else, it will be because you exercised you choice not to get vaccinated. 

The reason that the folks who got vaccinated, young and old, feel a degree of resentment towards people like yourself is that your actions prolong the circulation of the disease , increase the likelihood of higher risk variants, increase the risk of getting covid (a proportion of vaccinated people will get sick if other hosts continue to spread the disease) and delay the return to normal.

Their resentment is natural.  They see you as getting a free ride from their vaccination and they feel you are increasing the risk of infection to them and their families. 

one person does not make a difference, but 60% of the population who get vaccinated are going to resent the 40% who did not.

Your arguments are well constructed but I understand the resentment.

 

OK, if we are being serious then I will be too.

First and importantly I can't control and its not my problem how somebody else feels (they are giving others a free ride).  I didn't ask or tell them to do anything.  What they did, they did of their own accord so don't put that on me. 

As I have said there are folks I care about (including parents and others in extended family) who asked and I urged to get vaccinated and I am glad they did. It was the right thing to do for them. 

Second, you and others have no clue as to if I am or am not vaccinated.  And its none of your business.  But many here might be surprised.  Regardless I don't ask anything of you and don't care what you do or don't do.  Don't ask anything of me.  Your health and your life is your problem; not mine.

Third, there is no way I would tell or imply or suggest to my adult (over 18) kids or anyone else's who we happen to sponsor, what they should or should not do.  If asked I would tell them the reasons they might want to or might not want to and let them balance those factors for themselves. All of those "kids" have chosen a path that puts them in harms way of things far far worse than COVID and I'll be damned of I am going to be critical of them for whatever they decide.  They are not responsible for my health or taking actions to improve the prospects for my health.  I am.  Not you and not them.

Finally all the blow-hard on here might want to go back to that first FDA Advisory Committee and see how many voted no and why they voted no and then go look up the word foresight. 

Sick and tired of many of the pussies above who can't take care of themselves and look to others or the government to save them from themselves.  Screw that. 

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

OK, if we are being serious then I will be too.

First and importantly I can't control and its not my problem how somebody else feels (they are giving others a free ride).  I didn't ask or tell them to do anything.  What they did, they did of their own accord so don't put that on me. 

As I have said there are folks I care about (including parents and others in extended family) who asked and I urged to get vaccinated and I am glad they did. It was the right thing to do for them. 

Second, you and others have no clue as to if I am or am not vaccinated.  And its none of your business.  But many here might be surprised.  Regardless I don't ask anything of you and don't care what you do or don't do.  Don't ask anything of me.  Your health and your life is your problem; not mine.

Third, there is no way I would tell or imply or suggest to my adult (over 18) kids or anyone else's who we happen to sponsor, what they should or should not do.  If asked I would tell them the reasons they might want to or might not want to and let them balance those factors for themselves. All of those "kids" have chosen a path that puts them in harms way of things far far worse than COVID and I'll be damned of I am going to be critical of them for whatever they decide.  They are not responsible for my health or taking actions to improve the prospects for my health.  I am.  Not you and not them.

Finally all the blow-hard on here might want to go back to that first FDA Advisory Committee and see how many voted no and why they voted no and then go look up the word foresight. 

Sick and tired of many of the pussies above who can't take care of themselves and look to others or the government to save them from themselves.  Screw that. 

Wess

I respect you. I really do.

I know you urged your parents to get vaccinated. You yourself may have got vaccinated. You are right. I dont know.

Where we part company is this sense that I believe you can be both self reliant and have a sense of community. That we can be both risk takers in our personal lives without compromising the risk of others.  That we can both take care of ourselves and share a sense of responsibility to the community (not government but community).

If somebody does something good for you...it is on them......and when you do something good for others it is on you.

I see getting vaccinated as both a matter of self interest but also of trying to get the disease eliminated as a whole.  Even though the probability of mortality is low for some segments of the population,  the probability of eliminating the disease is much higher if we all get vaccinated.  Smallpox was eliminated because everyone got vaccinated.  Polio has been absent in the USA since 1979 because every US citizen has been vaccinated. If 40% of the population did not get vaccinated, these diseases would still be with us.  

CV19 has a horrible social aspect because it spreads so readily in social gatherings.   Young people have been denied social gatherings for 18 months. Its time to give it back to them

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34 minutes ago, Wess said:

...

Sick and tired of many of the pussies above who can't take care of themselves and look to others or the government to save them from themselves.  Screw that. 

As soon as you start making it about FEAR and "you're a pussy who is AFRAID" then you give up the whole game

Personally, I am afraid of deadly diseases. No shame whatever in making decisions based on avoiding them.

- DSK

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19 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Where we part company is this sense that I believe you can be both self reliant and have a sense of community.

CV19 has a horrible social aspect because it spreads so readily in social gatherings.   Young people have been denied social gatherings for 18 months. Its time to give it back to them

No we don't part company there.  Its just your community and my community are likely defined differently and believe and value different things. 

As for young folks being denied social gathering... oh come on. They simply went to TX or FL and gathered in private (including my residence) and did whatever they wanted. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

As soon as you start making it about FEAR and "you're a pussy who is AFRAID" then you give up the whole game

Personally, I am afraid of deadly diseases. No shame whatever in making decisions based on avoiding them.

- DSK

Its your game not mine and I ain't giving up nothing.  As I have said over and over.  YOU can be as scared or not as you want.  YOU can do whatever YOU want. I have zero issue with whatever YOU do for YOU.  And if I was scared I know exactly what I would do and lots of folks should be scared because this ain't nearly over nor will it be the last.  The issue is YOU want ME to do things (I may not want to do) for YOU.  How to make this clear... uh.... NO!

So again so its clear... go do whatever you want to do. The issue is that you and your self righteous merry band of fools want to force others into your science experiment and beliefs.  No.  You do you without judgement and I'll do me (ideally without your endless whining and judgement but I know that ain't gonna happen). 

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5 minutes ago, Wess said:

Its your game not mine and I ain't giving up nothing.  As I have said over and over.  YOU can be as scared or not as you want.  YOU can do whatever YOU want. I have zero issue with whatever YOU do for YOU.  And if I was scared I know exactly what I would do and lots of folks should be scared because this ain't nearly over nor will it be the last.  The issue is YOU want ME to do things (I may not want to do) for YOU.  How to make this clear... uh.... NO!

So again so its clear... go do whatever you want to do. The issue is that you and your self righteous merry band of fools want to force others into your science experiment and beliefs.  No.  You do you without judgement and I'll do me (ideally without your endless whining and judgement but I know that ain't gonna happen). 

Actually, no

Nobody can do "whatever they want."

That is reality. Your whole position is based on denying reality.

Make stupid irrational choices, win stupid irrational prizes.

Why don't you run back forth in front of trucks on the highway? Are you AFRAID of getting run over by a truck? You pussy!

- DSK

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You anger is so easily triggered and and your logic is so comically funny.  And so unconvincing. 

Yes I can; yes I have done whatever I want.  My body; my choice.  Nothing you can say or do will change that.  Or my call that anyone should be free to make whatever decision is best for them, in their opinion.

You ain't convincing me or anyone.  Nor can either side shout down the other.  At this stage we are each just laughing at those on the other side of the fence.  There is no common ground or respect for individual right (on your side)

But do rant on. I enjoy a good laugh before the weekend!!

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

 I have zero issue with whatever YOU do for YOU.  ........  The issue is YOU want ME to do things (I may not want to do) for YOU.  How to make this clear... uh.... NO!

 

Hi Wess.

I think that is the issue.  You have summed it up.

Yes.......in life, occasionally we are asked to do things for others.  

I would also argue that you are doing it for yourself because you owe it to yourself and your children to help eradicate covid 19. You write that this will be around for a long time. It does not need to be. The choice is ours.

But the main point that has got lost in the debate is that the vaccines are safe and effective.

The trials have been extensive and huge.  mRNA vaccines which only replicate a tiny harmless piece of the virus molecule usher in an era of safer more precise vaccines.

I hope you will remain open minded as you usually are and contemplate getting vaccinated or encouraging others to get vaccinated if the vaccine data continues to be safe.

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

.........  Nothing you can say or do will change that.  Or my call that anyone should be free to make whatever decision is best for them, in their opinion.

You ain't convincing me or anyone.  Nor can either side shout down the other.  At this stage we are each just laughing at those on the other side of the fence.

But do rant on. I enjoy a good laugh before the weekend!!

I agree that nothing we can do or say will change your mind.  Hopefully you will allow data and more information to influence your future decision.

Many months ago, you wrote that you would not be among the first to be vaccinated but if it proved safe over time you would contemplate getting vaccinated.

You and your kids were vaccinated for smallpox and polio.  I assume you are glad we no longer face those diseases.

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1 minute ago, EYESAILOR said:

Hi Wess.

I think that is the issue.  You have summed it up.

Yes.......in life, occasionally we are asked to do things for others.   But we are not obligated to.

I would also argue that you are doing it for yourself because you owe it to yourself and your children to help eradicate covid 19. You write that this will be around for a long time. It does not need to be. The choice is ours. Not true.

But the main point that has got lost in the debate is that the vaccines are safe and effective.  Not proven.

The trials have been extensive and huge.  mRNA vaccines which only replicate a tiny harmless piece of the virus molecule usher in an era of safer more precise vaccines.  I know well what they are and aren't and your preachy ways do more harm than good for your cause.

I hope you will remain open minded as you usually are and contemplate getting vaccinated or encouraging others to get vaccinated if the vaccine data continues to be safe.  I have been very clear about what I will and will not do.  You do you.  I'll do me.

 

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31 minutes ago, Wess said:

You anger is so easily triggered and and your logic is so comically funny.  And so unconvincing. 

Yes I can; yes I have done whatever I want.  My body; my choice.  Nothing you can say or do will change that.  Or my call that anyone should be free to make whatever decision is best for them, in their opinion.

You ain't convincing me or anyone.  Nor can either side shout down the other.  At this stage we are each just laughing at those on the other side of the fence.  There is no common ground or respect for individual right (on your side)

But do rant on. I enjoy a good laugh before the weekend!!

Sorry to disappoint, I'm not in the least angry. Go rub yourself with live leprosy cultures if you want, but don't think "I can do whatever I want" ... yeah? When was the last time you flew like Superman? ... and not have to suffer consequences.

If I have any message it all, it's not shouting down anybody, it's that your actions have consequences. That -used- to be a core conservative belief, now it seems to be opposite.

- DSK

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53 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

Wess,

 

In answer to your points

No you are not obligated to do things for others

You are right, I should rephrase,  thus far they have proven to be safe and effective.   I am trying not to preach.

As you do you, your last line.  Does that mean you will remain open minded and at least contemplate a vaccine if you see sufficient data that reassures you in your own mind, your own analysis and your own decision ?    Im guess I am asking if you would consider a vaccine if you are content that it is safe (not safe in my opinion but safe in your opinion).

 

 

Edit: And this is not a trick question.   I am simply hoping that some of the vaccine "no's" will be keeping an open mind and wondered if you belong to that category.

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Fly like Superman?  I know you live in some alternate reality fantasy world but we are talking covid vaccine here.  Not flying like superman LOL.  Perhaps you think the vaccine can make you fly like superman... sorry that ain't true either.

Seriously and sadly I suspect that the vaccine makes some people think they are superman and they don't need to worry about this. Same problem with masks and social distancing.  The reality you are still at risk and if your mortality risk from COVID is high you should not return to normal life.

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7 minutes ago, Wess said:

Fly like Superman?  I know you live in some alternate reality fantasy world but we are talking covid vaccine

You said "do ANYthing you want to." Maybe I should have phrased it: "not ever pay ANY taxes, ever!" as being more likely to appeal to your mind-set.

Clearly you did not mean what you said. That's a big difference, I do in fact mean what I say. And I'm not influenced by my peer group of buddies chanting "Libtard Pussies, Only 'Fraidy-Cats Get The Vaccine" which seems to be one of your more rational "reasons."

Not joking at all, peer pressure is a very powerful influencer.

- DSK

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24 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Wess,

 

In answer to your points

No you are not obligated to do things for others

You are right, I should rephrase,  thus far they have proven to be safe and effective.   I am trying not to preach.

As you do you, your last line.  Does that mean you will remain open minded and at least contemplate a vaccine if you see sufficient data that reassures you in your own mind, your own analysis and your own decision ?    Im guess I am asking if you would consider a vaccine if you are content that it is safe (not safe in my opinion but safe in your opinion).

For someone who claims to be so open and willing to listen and read... uh... try re-reading for comprehension this time.

To your past paragraph:  I made my decision in consultation with personal doctor and took the appropriate action.  That you fail to read between the lines is amusing and not my concern.  And I am not preaching when I say you do you and I'll do me.  I am saying you should have complete and total freedom to do whatever you want.  That in the exact opposite of preaching and telling you what to do (which is what you have done throughout this thread).  You very much want people to do what you want them to do and get the vaccine.  You are so biased and skewed on this that I doubt you would tell the truth if you knew the truth. I try to avoid telling people what to do and honestly don't care if they do or don't get the vaccine.  Even while working in the field so I am well aware that has some impact on people I love and care about (specifically parents who are at high risk of covid mortality for a variety of reasons).  Why?  Because its a fundamental human right to make your own decisions, your own way, about your own healthcare.  Period.  Full stop.  The end. 

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

Sick and tired of many of the pussies above who can't take care of themselves and look to others or the government to save them from themselves. 

Thus speaketh the guy who is too much of a pussy to get a vaccine. You are a chicken - that's the root of this whole thing.  You are like the little kid who wouldn't jump off the diving board. Except this time, your fright is putting others at risk.

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

For someone who claims to be so open and willing to listen and read... uh... try re-reading for comprehension this time.

To your past paragraph:  I made my decision in consultation with personal doctor and took the appropriate action.  That you fail to read between the lines is amusing and not my concern.  And I am not preaching when I say you do you and I'll do me.  I am saying you should have complete and total freedom to do whatever you want.  That in the exact opposite of preaching and telling you what to do (which is what you have done throughout this thread).  You very much want people to to what you want them to do and get the vaccine.  I try to avoid telling people what to do and honestly don't care if they do or don't get the vaccine.  Even while working in the field so I am well aware that has some impact on people I love and care about (specifically parents who are at high risk of covid mortality for a variety of reasons).  Why?  Because its a fundamental human right to make your own decisions, your own way, about your own healthcare.  Period.  Full stop.  The end. 

Lets keep it civil.

I know your decision regarding the vaccine. You have been consistent since your first post in September. 

As long ago as September, well before the vaccine was released you position was

  • Each person should take their own decision
  • If approved , the elderly and at risk, should take the vaccine .
  • The vaccine has been rushed and approved in record time. Healthy and under 65 dont need to take it but feel free if you want.
  • You have made a decision not to take the vaccine because it  may have unknown side effects, and you are in your late 50s with very low risk from covid.

I acknowledge your consistency and I have read what you say. I wondered what  happens if you decide the vaccine is safe.

 Now, you may simply say...."I have made my decision for now, I will worry about the future in the future , so I dont have an answer"  and that is okay.

Again......not preaching......I took the view it is safe. I am a very healthy person under 60 who hikes, sails and before covid went to the gym every day. My position has been consistent as yours has been. If the FDA deemed it safe and effective, I was going to take the vaccine. I closely followed the vaccine development since March last year .

I don't care if people smoke or do not smoke tobacco cigarettes. I care that they know and are fully informed and realize the higher mortality risk. I would encourage anyone I know not to smoke and explain the risks. I care that they dont smoke indoors in crowded places causing risks to other people. In the privacy of you own home, do what you like.

I prefer not to have to treat you for covid but catching covid can be your own choice. If you act as a host to covid and spread it on to others.....imposing your choice on them, then I care.  I guess non-vaccinated could continue to wear masks??until the disease is gone.

 

 

 

 

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OMG that is so funny. Both absolute liars and lies but it say more about you than me so I will just leave it alone. 
 

Your body; your choice. 
 

Oh and no I am never wearing a mask now and rarely did then. Did the absolute minimum only when required and enforced. That should trigger a few! 

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

OMG that is so funny. Both absolute liars and lies but it say more about you than me so I will just leave it alone. 
 

Your body; your choice. 

Me or Israel.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Mine was simply a question.   If you get comfortable with the data, would you consider a vaccine in the future?   And I acknowledged you have been consistent in your position (which I hope I stated correctly) . I also acknowledged that you might say....you will worry about the future in the future.

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~ 840,000 USAnians hospitalized with CoVid-19 last week, ~1,200 were vaccinated.

Odds >800:1 in favor of vaccination

Half of the non-vaccinated will have fairly serious ongoing health complications, heart disease gets a lot of headlines but liver damage is also common. Clotting disorders affecting every organ, etc etc.

But hey, it's all a big hoax by aliens who want to secretly implant a microchip!

- DSK

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LOL.  Oh well; back to work. 

Your body; your choice!

Don't ask; don't tell!

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A couple of quick questions about rugged individualism  with regards to one's participation in a common social contract and one's right to their own health and body. 

If you are driving down the road and a pedestrian accidentally wanders into the street, do you veer away, putting your body at risk? Break hard, putting your body at risk? Or just plough through and come to a controlled stop after a collision?

In each case you are measuring your obligation to another human being through a pre set agreement on a set of rules that may have been slightly altered due to the errant pedestrian's actions. 

One might look, at least on a broad scale globally, at the arrival of Covid as the pedestrian that walked on to all streets everywhere. Thankfully, in almost every corner of the world, there have been various degrees of positive reaction wether from an individual perspective, a common social perspective, or a government perspective. 

The notion that individual rights extend to doing whatever the hell one wants only extends as far as a bullet will travel or as fast as a car will kill. At that point, you have a myriad of regulations in place that an individual abides by, and by doing so, fosters a 'degree' of freedom in common society. 

Am I happy to have taken my first vaccine and still waiting for my second scheduled dose? Hell no. I wish I never had to bother to take the very small risk that has come my way. But on a balance of probabilities, and personal responsibilities to others in my immediate vicinity, and hopefully more broadly as my country approaches a vaccination target, I'm OK with it. 

The only thing that bugs me is people conflating the right to life liberty and happiness with the right to do whatever the hell they want. 

 

 

 

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Damn; I didn't get away fast enough.

That ^ is such a false narrative as to be comical.  First I think most every human's instinctual reaction is to avoid even an animal that darts into the road never mind a person.  You actually have to train hard to not do that.

But lets see here... when that person jumps out into the road what are their chances of dying if I hit them with my truck.  Near 100%

Lets say instead they get covid.  What are their chances of dying again?

Your body; your choice.

Don't ask; don't tell.

Get used to covid and things like it; this is the new normal and it ain't going away.

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