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When offered the Vaccine, will you take it?


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The intelligent have a solid awareness of how much they don't know

The capable are always being confronted by things they can't do

People who just make shit sound very confident, salesmen always tell you what you want to hear.

- DSK

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The private sector has embarked on a major campaign to reassure the public that they will not release a vaccine until they are confident it is safe and effective. We can expect a joint statement from

As many of you know I am right of center politically.  I dont think vaccines are a political issue or at least they should not be.  My family are all vaccinated. I tried to think of how I should

You are such a bag of shit wrapped in a thin veneer of pseudo self esteem. You are a walking around killer of strangers free riding on those who got vaccinated. Sponger.

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Don't you folks sail?  Or have any life outside SA?

My body; my choice.

Don't ask; don't tell.

 

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3 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Interesting statistic I heard today:  A fully vaccinated 80 yr old has the same Covid-19 illness risk as an unvaccinated 50yr old.

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On 6/27/2021 at 5:10 PM, Mambo Kings said:

William Butler Yeats wrote "The Second Coming" during the 1918-1919 flu epidemic. His pregnant wife Georgie Hyde-Lees caught the virus and was very close to death.  While his wife was convalescing, he wrote the poem. It also reflects on the end of the war but his words at the time of the pandemic ring true now as they did then

Turning and turning in the widening gyre   
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere   
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst   
Are full of passionate intensity.
 
I feel that America is losing its center as politics moves to its extremes.  Trust, respect and innocence is being drowned  by social media.  As the wisest councilors on the epidemic and medicine acknowledge the uncertainty of any outcome and conviction but make their best recommendations, the space is filled by the "worst" with their passionate intensity.

I was going to mention TS Elliot’s ‘The Wasteland’. Not as terse as Yeats.  But parallel.  The internal logic of this disease is crushing and inexorable.  

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1 hour ago, Amati said:
On 6/27/2021 at 8:10 PM, Mambo Kings said:

William Butler Yeats wrote "The Second Coming" during the 1918-1919 flu epidemic. His pregnant wife Georgie Hyde-Lees caught the virus and was very close to death.  While his wife was convalescing, he wrote the poem. It also reflects on the end of the war but his words at the time of the pandemic ring true now as they did then

Turning and turning in the widening gyre   
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere   
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst   
Are full of passionate intensity.
 
I feel that America is losing its center as politics moves to its extremes.  Trust, respect and innocence is being drowned  by social media.  As the wisest councilors on the epidemic and medicine acknowledge the uncertainty of any outcome and conviction but make their best recommendations, the space is filled by the "worst" with their passionate intensity.

Expand  

Expand  

I was going to mention TS Elliot’s ‘The Wasteland’. Not as terse as Yeats.  But parallel.  The internal logic of this disease is crushing and inexorable.  

Good stuff, for what needs to be expressed. What's the one about "ignorant armies clash by night"... I think 'Dover Beach'? Sums up today's USA unfortunately. I just starting a junior sailing class and they give me a lot of hope, otherwise I'd be in despair

- DSK

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Biggest problem is preachy sheeple who are incapable of self reliance and opposed to freedom and liberty for all.

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19 minutes ago, Wess said:

Biggest problem is preachy sheeple who are incapable of self reliance and opposed to freedom and liberty for all.

There is the misleading  preaching of Tess Lawrie and the calm reasoned recommendation of the public health community 

But if your underlying thesis is that people should be free to choose . That is true provided they have accurate and truthful information in front of them.  It is worrisome that less well educated,  lower income and minorities are not getting vaccinated 

if your thesis is that it is somehow “self reliant’ and a token of rugged individualism to not get vaccinated, that of course is horse shit.  But I don’t think you mean that.   

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Though you keep positioning yourself as such you are not the arbitrator of the truth Eye. Remember the idiot basketball player who believed the earth was flat. While I disagree he has every right to believe whatever truth he wants to believe and live his life accordingly. Stop pushing snake oil on people if they believe it’s snake oil. Frankly your approach which many adopt is a big part of the problem. Tell people what to do and preach it endless in their face and they will push back just to push back. All people have a right to come to their own decision their own way and in their own time without you or anyone else endlessly preaching. I realize you think they are stupid but in time it may be you that is proven to be in the wrong. 

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39 minutes ago, Wess said:

 I realize you think they are stupid but in time it may be you that is proven to be in the wrong. 

Or not.

Are  you still waiting for proof that the earth really is flat?

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40 minutes ago, Wess said:

Though you keep positioning yourself as such you are not the arbitrator of the truth Eye. Remember the idiot basketball player who believed the earth was flat. While I disagree he has every right to believe whatever truth he wants to believe and live his life accordingly. Stop pushing snake oil on people if they believe it’s snake oil. Frankly your approach which many adopt is a big part of the problem. Tell people what to do and preach it endless in their face and they will push back just to push back. All people have a right to come to their own decision their own way and in their own time without you or anyone else endlessly preaching. I realize you think they are stupid but in time it may be you that is proven to be in the wrong. 

Go back thru the thread and see who cites consistent numbers and actual research, and who keeps pushing fuzzy-feely stuff and changing the subject.

No person is the arbiter of "truth" but the universe is constantly sorting us out. Science is the process of looking for answers that work, it's an ongoing process. If you have all the answers already, and cannot abide changing your answer as more data comes in, then what you have is religion not science.

As for freedom, that once again depends on others. Your rights don't include endangering others. The world is a lot more crowded than it used to be, Daniel Boone wouldn't like it much.

- DSK

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On 6/27/2021 at 5:10 PM, Mambo Kings said:

William Butler Yeats wrote "The Second Coming" during the 1918-1919 flu epidemic. His pregnant wife Georgie Hyde-Lees caught the virus and was very close to death.  While his wife was convalescing, he wrote the poem. It also reflects on the end of the war but his words at the time of the pandemic ring true now as they did then

Turning and turning in the widening gyre   
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere   
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst   
Are full of passionate intensity.
 
I feel that America is losing its center as politics moves to its extremes.  Trust, respect and innocence is being drowned  by social media.  As the wisest councilors on the epidemic and medicine acknowledge the uncertainty of any outcome and conviction but make their best recommendations, the space is filled by the "worst" with their passionate intensity.

In a lot of ways, dinghy sailing is the poetic essence of sailing.  A certain poet swimming the Hellespont.  Serious fun, lyric intensity. 

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On 6/28/2021 at 7:57 PM, Ease the sheet. said:

So you look after your own waste too?

What does Wess sail again?

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On 6/25/2021 at 5:04 AM, Mambo Kings said:

Wess

I respect you. I really do.

I know you urged your parents to get vaccinated. You yourself may have got vaccinated. You are right. I dont know.

Where we part company is this sense that I believe you can be both self reliant and have a sense of community. That we can be both risk takers in our personal lives without compromising the risk of others.  That we can both take care of ourselves and share a sense of responsibility to the community (not government but community).

If somebody does something good for you...it is on them......and when you do something good for others it is on you.

I see getting vaccinated as both a matter of self interest but also of trying to get the disease eliminated as a whole.  Even though the probability of mortality is low for some segments of the population,  the probability of eliminating the disease is much higher if we all get vaccinated.  Smallpox was eliminated because everyone got vaccinated.  Polio has been absent in the USA since 1979 because every US citizen has been vaccinated. If 40% of the population did not get vaccinated, these diseases would still be with us.  

CV19 has a horrible social aspect because it spreads so readily in social gatherings.   Young people have been denied social gatherings for 18 months. Its time to give it back to them

I thought kids might be the conundrum here, since they typically asymptomatically shed virus, but around here, at least, even little kids are much better at masking, in public at least, even when parents aren’t.  It may be time to give social gatherings back to them, but a lot of kids seem to realize there is something more important going on.  Having distanced conversations on the daily walk with a couple of local masked 9 year olds who insist on a strict time limit?  Respect.  What we’re finding around here is that among kids who are allowed vaccinations and retired folks there is an 85% vaccine rate.  Between that, it’s pretty dismal.  Intense social dynamic there- maybe we’re putting too much pressure on the middle cohort, and they’re going a bit wonky with too many responsibilities? Personal responsibility and self reliance for everything can be excruciating & unforgiving.  You have to pick your battles.  

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41 minutes ago, Amati said:

What does Wess sail again?

Not sure what that has to do with anything but about 150 days a year on a larger cruising trimaran, a UFO and a Laser presently. Typically covering about 100-200nm each weekend cruise.  Previously raced everything from dinghies (single and double-handers), monohulls and multis before the kids grew up and flew the nest at which point the wife and I settled on a cruising (not racing) lifestyle.  We also backpack and do a fair bit of mountaineering though this year it will be a Grand Canyon rim to rim in a few months and then a climb of the Grand (Tetons) in early 2022 or December 2021 depending on how fast we recover from Grand Canyon and complete that training.  And we never stopped doing any of this during COVID.  Before you ask, no I am not saying its a hoax.  Yes I am saying its overblown for most and certainly for us relative to our lifestyle and willingness to take risk.  And no, I don't care about you or your life (you take care of you); nor do I ask you to care about mine.

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On 6/26/2021 at 9:55 AM, EYESAILOR said:

So I have started taking a quick look at some of the trials underlying Tess Lawrie's meta analysis of trials.

I looked at the trials in India and Bangladesh which were using a placebo and had 157 and 74 candidates .  

Both recommended further trials. Neither trial achieved statistical significance but observed enough to recommend further investigation. The differences between cohorts was sufficiently small and do not come close to the efficacy of vaccines.  Whatever the best claims are for Ivermectin......it is no replacement for the vaccine .

A small sample rate like that leads to a very wide +\-.  To say nothing of their methodology.  Thing is, intuitive belief backed up by anecdote just feels so right, and turns into salesmanship.

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10 minutes ago, Wess said:

Not sure what that has to do with anything but about 150 days a year on a larger cruising trimaran, a UFO and a Laser presently. Typically covering about 100-200nm each weekend cruise.  Previously raced everything from dinghies (single and double-handers), monohulls and multis before the kids grew up and flew the nest at which point the wife and I settled on a cruising (not racing) lifestyle.  We also backpack and do a fair bit of mountaineering though this year it will be a Grand Canyon rim to rim in a few months and then a climb of the Grand (Tetons) in early 2022 or December 2021 depending on how fast we recover from Grand Canyon and complete that training.  And we never stopped doing any of this during COVID.  Before you ask, no I am not saying its a hoax.  Yes I am saying its overblown for most and certainly for us relative to our lifestyle and willingness to take risk.  And no, I don't care about you or your life (you take care of you); nor do I ask you to care about mine.

Love your lifestyle.

 

I think you overstate how little you care about others.  Why do I have this sneaking suspicion that you care more than you admit.

 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Though you keep positioning yourself as such you are not the arbitrator of the truth Eye. Remember the idiot basketball player who believed the earth was flat. While I disagree he has every right to believe whatever truth he wants to believe and live his life accordingly. Stop pushing snake oil on people if they believe it’s snake oil. Frankly your approach which many adopt is a big part of the problem. Tell people what to do and preach it endless in their face and they will push back just to push back. All people have a right to come to their own decision their own way and in their own time without you or anyone else endlessly preaching. I realize you think they are stupid but in time it may be you that is proven to be in the wrong. 

1. I have never accused anyone of being stupid.  I am not condescending towards the un-vaccinated. I have posted that instead of telling them that they are stupid, we should listen to their concerns.  Some of their concerns are valid and should be listened to

2, I am not the arbitrator of truth. I have several times changed my views as more data comes out and I have several times said I remain open minded. I do push back on those who state views with such certainty without data.   

Anyway. You state your views. I state mine.

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2 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

1. I have never accused anyone of being stupid.  I am not condescending towards the un-vaccinated. I have posted that instead of telling them that they are stupid, we should listen to their concerns.  Some of their concerns are valid and should be listened to

2, I am not the arbitrator of truth. I have several times changed my views as more data comes out and I have several times said I remain open minded. I do push back on those who state views with such certainty without data.   

Anyway. You state your views. I state mine.

You stated his views, or at least your suspicion of his views, in your prior post. I admire your persistence and your dedication to public health but I think you're being naive and a bit condescending. When people show you who they are, believe them. To do anything else is undermining your own public health goals. 

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5 minutes ago, IStream said:

You stated his views, or at least your suspicion of his views, in your prior post. I admire your persistence and your dedication to public health but I think you're being naive and a bit condescending. When people show you who they are, believe them. To do anything else is undermining your own public health goals. 

Apologies. I did not mean to sound condescending. I like Wess.But I truly did not understand his post so I tried to clarify.

What is he saying in this post?   Is he saying that taking the vaccine is for people who are incapable of self reliance?   Or is he saying that just leave everyone to their own devices and dont provide them with information and advice?

He may be smart and self reliant but there are people who genuinely want advice and information. Not from SA.  But there is so much misinformation out there that i feel public health (not me) has a duty to inform. Inform is different from preach.  If the CDC genuinely does advize vaccination then I feel they should be able to say it.

4 hours ago, Wess said:

Biggest problem is preachy sheeple who are incapable of self reliance and opposed to freedom and liberty for all.

 

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44 minutes ago, Wess said:

Not sure what that has to do with anything but about 150 days a year on a larger cruising trimaran, a UFO and a Laser presently. Typically covering about 100-200nm each weekend cruise.  Previously raced everything from dinghies (single and double-handers), monohulls and multis before the kids grew up and flew the nest at which point the wife and I settled on a cruising (not racing) lifestyle.  We also backpack and do a fair bit of mountaineering though this year it will be a Grand Canyon rim to rim in a few months and then a climb of the Grand (Tetons) in early 2022 or December 2021 depending on how fast we recover from Grand Canyon and complete that training.  And we never stopped doing any of this during COVID.  Before you ask, no I am not saying its a hoax.  Yes I am saying its overblown for most and certainly for us relative to our lifestyle and willingness to take risk.  And no, I don't care about you or your life (you take care of you); nor do I ask you to care about mine.

Thing is, we know too many long haulers struggling with things like blood clots in their lungs after mild COVID. Unless you are into religiously based & funded Paul Ryan Hospice for the Medically Indigent.  (Probably not). Do you take communications with you mountaineering?  Cruising? Would you take your Laser across the Bass Straights without a phone?  As far as caring about your life, I was a lifeguard when I was a lad, so you’re shit out of luck there.  I realize that more than a few people I rescued were complete idiots, but I’m not God. I didn’t feel I could pick.  I was hit by a car while in a crosswalk once being my usual careful self, and I remember lying on the ground while people just walked by, so I crawled over to the curb, and after a while a nice woman from a salon came out with a chair to see if I was ok.  It’s convenient and simple for you to say you don’t care about another life and you don’t ask anyone else to care about yours, but personally I think it’s more complex than you think. And come to think on it, you do use the word ‘we’ instead of ‘I’ concerning your mountaineering.  Do you care about them?  Do you expect them to care about you?  I suppose you don’t rope up on technical routes?  If you take a fall, everybody has a good laugh and climbs on? There’s a kind of emotional purity to that.  Until there isn’t.  We live in a gravity well. It has limitations.  Like wave drag.

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6 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Love your lifestyle.

 

I think you overstate how little you care about others.  Why do I have this sneaking suspicion that you care more than you admit.

 

Because there is a fine line you are missing as is IS and others.  Yea I am proud to be part of a family and to have kids that have chosen to serve.  Defend and protect the constitution, freedom and liberty.  And yes my career decisions later in life both the present and past role (more the past really on the private side) afforded an opportunity to do thing that generated life giving and life sustaining options for people. Its one thing to want to do the things that give them the options.  Its another thing to push them down a path or try to push what I think best on them. Even if I think their logic is flawed. Because its only flawed to me; not to them.  I honestly don't care if someone picks a path that is not the optimal or today's version of science /statistics driven because it should be their call.  I don't care if somebody hides in their house in a bunny suit with an N95 for the rest of their live.  Sheeple gotta be sheeple.  Lions gotta prowl.  Before the kid headed to a new duty station the rents wanted to see and spend time.  It was a really stupid decision medically speaking but it was right for them.  Hell my FIL went to NJ to live with a drug addict daughter knowing it would kill him (he was in really poor health and had been living with us for years) but he needed to do that.  Killed himself trying to save her.  People make decisions. Its not my job to tell them what to do (unless asked) or preach till they do it, or save them from themselves.

Amati those Qs are so obvious and wack they just ain't worth the effort; sorry.  At some point you may realize there are people different than you who do not and will not think like you or live their life like you. To each their own.  Mask or vaccinate or hide or not and go party in a crowded bar.  From March 2020 till now I simply don't care what you do and will not give up my freedom to make you feel or be safer.  Make yourself feel or be safer.  It ain't hard.

 

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Fair question Kate. 

I found only one systematic study on post covid conditions with a large sample size. 

https://s3.amazonaws.com/media2.fairhealth.org/whitepaper/asset/A Detailed Study of Patients with Long-Haul COVID--An Analysis of Private Healthcare Claims--A FAIR Health White Paper.pdf

They rightly qualify the study saying there is still so much we have to learn about the long term impact of covid.  There are many questions unanswered. These highlights caught my eye.

In their sample of 2 million covid patients they found that 23% had one kind of post covid condition or another. However.....it should be noted that this includes asymptomatic covid tests in the sample. If the sample is restricted to symptomatic but not hospitalized , that rises to 27% and for the hospitalized the probability of a post covid condition is 50%.

 

Cardiac inflammation is notable because the age distribution was skewed to a younger cohort. Of patients who reported this condition, the largest share—25.4 percent—was in the age group 19-29.This was disproportionate to that age group’s share of the population of COVID-19 patients overall, 20.9 percent . Myocardial conditions outside of a covid cohort are usually associated with higher age groups.  I think it is fair to conclude that the data is confirming empirical observations that we are seeing Myocarditis in younger covid patients.

As usual you will get some people exaggerating the effects of post covid conditions and some exaggerating the effects of the vaccine.  Im sure I will get flak from both sides.

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6 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

In their sample of 2 million covid patients they found that 23% had one kind of post covid condition or another. However.....it should be noted that this includes asymptomatic covid tests in the sample. If the sample is restricted to symptomatic but not hospitalized , that rises to 27% and for the hospitalized the probability of a post covid condition is 50%.

A similar study found similar results HOWEVER the devil (truth?) is in the detail.  They found 26% but when compared to non-covid-19 infected workers they found that 9% of those had similar symptoms.

That study as have many similar studies listed conditions such as loss of smell and fatigue as "serious" conditions!  No comparison of course with similar illnesses such as influenza and the common cold which also produce "long-haul" effects.

But where is the evidence that proves as @Amati has stated that there are a significant number of individuals with blood clots coursing through their veins?  What is the percentage in relation to other respiratory illnesses and dare I say it vaccine adverse reactions?

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Anyway you lot will be pleased to know that I was offered the Pzifer vaccine yesterday.

My assessment of risk has not changed and therefore I turned it down.

At the very least some more at risk, vulnerable or fear mongering individual living in fear can have mine.

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Anyway you lot will be pleased to know that I was offered the Pzifer vaccine yesterday.

My assessment of risk has not changed and therefore I turned it down.

At the very least some more at risk, vulnerable or fear mongering individual living in fear can have mine.

Why do you insult those that choose to get vaccinated by calling them "fear mongering"?

Im done for a while with this thread, pending new information.

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

....where is the evidence.... ... that there are a significant number of individuals with blood clots coursing through their veins? ....

Quoted for posteriority. You really can't make this shit up, or at least, I couldn't.

You wanna re-phrase that, Mr Genius? Not surprised your risk assessment is trying to claim 2+2=orange, you really proved your point

- DSK

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Anyway you lot will be pleased to know that I was offered the Pzifer vaccine yesterday.

My assessment of risk has not changed and therefore I turned it down.

MikeyKateAntiVax.jpg.a20d7a343be04e579bf01ca99b968b10.jpg

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To all those who have decided they don't need to get vaccinated because the risk of dying is so small, what is the chance you will become an asymptomatic spreader and cause someone else to die or suffer? I know a number of people who never knew that had it until were required to get tested. All those people were spreading it unknowingly.

Entitlement is a poor reason to put yourself above the well being of others. 

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

Why do you insult those that choose to get vaccinated by calling them "fear mongering"?

Im done for a while with this thread, pending new information.

Expecting anything else from malicious trolls has always been your mistake, doctor.  Please stop coddling all of them, in all threads, it only degrades your message and gives them energy (and a larger audience when you quote the dullards that many of us have on ignore).

do_not_feed_the_trolls.thumb.png.30e6ae44c7cd83bdc0c3976cfb07a172.png

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Quoted for posteriority. You really can't make this shit up, or at least, I couldn't.

You wanna re-phrase that, Mr Genius? Not surprised your risk assessment is trying to claim 2+2=orange, you really proved your point

- DSK

Well where is the documented evidence that shows the percentage of "long-haulers" that have "blood clots coursing through their veins"?

Come in DSK-Genius.

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50 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

To all those who have decided they don't need to get vaccinated because the risk of dying is so small, what is the chance you will become an asymptomatic spreader and cause someone else to die or suffer? I know a number of people who never knew that had it until were required to get tested. All those people were spreading it unknowingly.

The risk of an asymptomatic case of Covid infecting someone else is very very small - fact.

The risk of an asymptomatic case of Covid infecting someone else who has been vaccinated is infinitesimal.

 

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35 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The risk of an asymptomatic case of Covid infecting someone else is very very small - fact.

...

 

No, that is a lie

38 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Well where is the documented evidence that shows the percentage of "long-haulers" that have "blood clots coursing through their veins"?

Come in DSK-Genius.

Umm, none.

Blood clots don't "course thru veins"

Dumbass

This is funny enough to repeat IMHO, if not I apologize to the community at large

- DSK

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31 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The risk of an asymptomatic case of Covid infecting someone else is very very small - fact.

 

Poison pill for troll. The statement about asymptomatic spread is criminally wrong. If not so dangerous it would be proof positive how laughably wrong you are in your attempts to sound authoritative. 

 Lancet: asymptomatic only slightly less likely than symptomatic forc transmission and infection

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanepe/article/PIIS2666-7762(21)00059-4/fulltext

JAMA Network: half community spread from asymptomatic 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2774707

U Chicago: ditto, half https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/forefront/coronavirus-disease-covid-19/asymptomatic-coronavirus-infections-contribute-to-over-50-percent-of-spread

THAT'S WHAT WE DIDN'T KNOW IN EARLY 2020 AND HOW IT GOT AWAY FROM US. Temperature checks, feeling well, not good enough.  Masks, baby! Now vax vax baby!

 

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24 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

No, that is a lie

Umm, none.

Blood clots don't "course thru veins"

Dumbass

This is funny enough to repeat IMHO, if not I apologize to the community at large

- DSK

Most do because they are smaller than the circumference of the vein.  The issue is when they congregate at a bottleneck.  But that is far too much for you to understand.

A clot of blood can still move around the circulatory system until such time as it grows bigger than an important aperture like one entering the heart or the brain.

You really are quite thick aren't you.

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So Pzifer the company that received the largest fine ever in the history of the USA for criminal activities less than 10 years ago is now seeking Emergency Use Approval to give their vaccine to children aged 5 to 11 for a disease that they have next to zero risk of serious illness or death.

Now go prove each of the facts I posted as being wrong in that statement!

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This is the problem with the "big pharma" argument. A. When bioscience firms make a healthy profit for their shareholders, they are nefarious. B. When bioscience firms use their resources to help with a massive public health problem because maybe they think the goodwill generated will help with A., they are nefarious. 

 

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1 hour ago, spankoka said:

This is the problem with the "big pharma" argument. A. When bioscience firms make a healthy profit for their shareholders, they are nefarious. B. When bioscience firms use their resources to help with a massive public health problem because maybe they think the goodwill generated will help with A., they are nefarious. 

 

One could argue they have a vested interest in keeping their customers alive.  Dead customers don't purchase pharmaceuticals.

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On 6/29/2021 at 11:51 AM, Wess said:

My body; my choice.

No man is an Island .

 

some are obviously ignorant idiots however .

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10 hours ago, Wess said:

From March 2020 till now I simply don't care what you do and will not give up my freedom to make you feel or be safer.  

 

This is why we need to keep the US/Canada border closed until it is clear that the virus is no longer a threat.  Get vaccinated, or stay home.

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2 hours ago, Rain Man said:

This is why we need to keep the US/Canada border closed until it is clear that the virus is no longer a threat.  Get vaccinated, or stay home.

LOL; no!

Want to guess the number of US states I have been to since this started early 2020? How about number of countries? I would tell you (hint it’s a big number) but you seem the sort that would cry.

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On 9/6/2020 at 6:32 AM, EYESAILOR said:

  What is your personal stance? and why?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 

No, because 

download2.jpg.2d8f8a6089a7e2769c6cf8cb9049d5bb.jpg

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9 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The risk of an asymptomatic case of Covid infecting someone else is very very small - fact.

 

Even I know that is not true.   

One of the reasons that Covid has spread so fast globally is that hosts start shedding the virus before they demonstrate symptoms. 

Clew linked studies that show that people who never develop symptoms are responsible for 25-50% of the spread but I think the equally concerning issue is that people who have caught CV19 start shedding the virus before they are aware they have caught it....presymptomatic  spread. 

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-1595_article

8 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Now go prove each of the facts I posted as being wrong

You boldly post that your statements are facts.   Some are clearly not. Then you mix them in with some statements that are close enough to accurate so that it ends up as an unreliable blur of fact and fiction. 

 

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

LOL; no!

Want to guess the number of US states I have been to since this started early 2020? How about number of countries? I would tell you (hint it’s a big number) but you seem the sort that would cry.

This is like bragging that your kids don't wear seat belts in the car

- DSK

 

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30 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Is KSFB a Russian bot?

Are the people engaging and quoting him (and the other trolls) complete fools?  How much utter bullshit do you tolerate before putting someone on ignore?

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As many of you know I am right of center politically.  I dont think vaccines are a political issue or at least they should not be.  My family are all vaccinated.

I tried to think of how I should explain my decision to all of you. 

I do believe in freedom and in the individual. 

I dont pretend to understand all of the medical science that surrounds the vaccines as well as some of you.  I understand that mRNA vaccines have been under development for a decade and that the science of genomic vaccines is real.   I believe there are some very small risks associated with all vaccines.  I note that myocarditis is one of the side effects of catching Covid, notably in young people and that there is very small but increased incidence of myocarditis folowing vaccination. I think there have been 300+ cases after 150 million + vaccinations.  So I think the risks are thus far very low.

The decision to vaccinate myself and my family's decision to get vaccinated is so that we do not get covid. Its that simple. We do not want to catch the disease and the risk reward seems attractive.  There is a risk every time I get in a car to go to the YC , but the risk/reward of driving is worth it.

Secondly, I am afraid I part company from Wess.  I do believe that getting vaccinated is part of doing my part in fighting covid. I am in deep admiration of all the frontline healthcare workers and emergency responders during the pandemic. In a very small way I am doing my bit.  I do believe the people who study pandemics when they say we need to reach 80%+ immunity to curtail the pandemic, so I want to help us get there ....and I want to do that without catching covid.

I have been vaccinated for 3 months with no ill effect whatsoever and I feel really good about it.  I recommend it to anyone. I dont preach. I simply say - Ihave been vaccinated. I feel great and I recommend it.

Are my kids vaccinated? Yes. They chose to get vaccinated. They are young and healthy but they dont want to get covid and they want a covid free society if at all possible.

 

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14 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Why do you insult those that choose to get vaccinated by calling them "fear mongering"?

Im done for a while with this thread, pending new information.

New information about yet another vaccine - Nova Vax- kind of a weird  article, even by Atlantic Magazine standards- apparently as effective as Moderna/Pfizer, better on variants.  Some discussion of the politics/reality/business of vaccine development, which should make the trolls happy.  Can we mix vaccines, if variant boosters on initial vaccines are lagging?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/

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To quote the Atlantic article, the reason I wish to support a herd immunity society is to rein in the probability of more mutations

As an epidemic widens, so does the range of mutations, and viruses that carry advantageous ones that allow them to, for example, spread more easily or slip past the immune system to outcompete their standard predecessors. That’s how we got super-transmissible variants like Alpha and Delta. And it’s how we might eventually face variants that can truly infect even vaccinated people.

The theory of evolution is that the successful survive.  The stronger variations will outcompete existing variations. Its logical and how nature works.  So we have to take this down soooner rather than later.

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

This is like bragging that your kids don't wear seat belts in the car

- DSK

 

That is funny. Are there seatbelts on motorbikes?

Que the helmet question and more whining and crying and nashing of teeth.

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"Actor Gary Busey, who was not wearing a helmet when he was nearly killed in a motorcycle crash three years ago, on Friday urged all state legislatures to pass mandatory helmet laws. ... “If you don't wear a helmet, you're not playing with a full deck.” California's mandatory helmet law goes into effect Jan. 1"

Wess go sail your Laser and whine on that thread. You have no intellectual argument to offer regarding the vaccine - only trolling bullshit.

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30 minutes ago, Amati said:

New information about yet another vaccine - Nova Vax- kind of a weird  article, even by Atlantic Magazine standards- apparently as effective as Moderna/Pfizer, better on variants.  Some discussion of the politics/reality/business of vaccine development, which should make the trolls happy.  Can we mix vaccines, if variant boosters on initial vaccines are lagging?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/06/novavax-now-best-covid-19-vaccine/619276/

The novovax vaccine seems like it has a place in the armory vs Covid, especially since it can be stored at normal refrigeration temperature.    It might prove more reassuring to those who are worried about the relative new science of mRNA.     I glanced at the results.    Again effectiveness really depends on getting the 2nd dose.

One thing I noticed from the study which gave individual details is that one of the candidates that displayed covid symptoms 7 days after jab and died was a healthy 53 year old.  Covid is not just an old persons disease.

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14 hours ago, d'ranger said:

To all those who have decided they don't need to get vaccinated because the risk of dying is so small, what is the chance you will become an asymptomatic spreader and cause someone else to die or suffer? I know a number of people who never knew that had it until were required to get tested. All those people were spreading it unknowingly.

Entitlement is a poor reason to put yourself above the well being of others. 

Freedom to infect vs freedom from infection.
 

Falls into the realm of Critical Legal Theory  (CLT) if you think about it.  Like upstream water rights - think polluting, like peeing into a river - howdy neighbors downstream!  Folks who are into a subset of CLT, Critical Race Theory, could easily argue freedom to infect is a core value of slave holding, which, for example, had  supporting laws establishing the slaveholder legality of physically punishing or even killing a slave.  Power is a sneaky thing, especially if you can do it anonymously, like asymptomatic spread of COVID.  In a techno/scientific world, power becomes an more slippery concept, as causations become more apparent, and concepts of Personal Liberty are redefined.  Joseph Masco, in his book ‘The Nuclear Borderlands’ shows a version of how power spills into culture, politics, and even aesthetics & emotional life, although not explicitly a book concerning CLT.  So as I wander towards a point, right now, as CLT would predict (which is what theories should do), the freedom to infect is codified into law by a more powerful group, which, if you think about it, is essentially the same as peeing into a river because it really really makes the folks at the top of the pyramid angry if you even hint that maybe it’s not a good idea. As Eva Dent.  
 

if you believe in Freedom from Infection, I’m afraid you’ll need to wear a mask, and distance, even if vaccinated.  In this context, the power of the freedom to infect is invisible, and the numbers of anonymous folks who are exercising that freedom are significant.

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11 minutes ago, Wess said:

That is funny. Are there seatbelts on motorbikes?

Que the helmet question and more whining and crying and nashing of teeth.

I think helmets and safety belts are completely different from vaccination.

Nobody is putting out misinformation about motorbike helmets.  Nobody is claiming that wearing a helmet is bad for your health and even the most ardent hells angel knows that wearing a helmet is safer, and the trade off is the freedom of wind n your hair etc.  and the freedom to make your own assessment of how carefully you ride.   Lets not go down the helmet discussion......it is a poor analogy.

The vaccine resistance is partly based on misinformation , and not taking a vaccine potentially harms the rest of society in extending the pandemic.

Schools have had compulsory vaccines for a long time .   Vaccines have transformed quality of life and life expectancy. 

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3 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

"Actor Gary Busey, who was not wearing a helmet when he was nearly killed in a motorcycle crash three years ago, on Friday urged all state legislatures to pass mandatory helmet laws. ... “If you don't wear a helmet, you're not playing with a full deck.” California's mandatory helmet law goes into effect Jan. 1"

Wess go sail your Laser and whine on that thread. You have no intellectual argument to offer regarding the vaccine - only trolling bullshit.

You are right. I know nothing about them LOL.

And yet still I get to make my own decisions about how to live my life.  As do my kids.  And millions of others who refuse to cower or kowtow to your agenda.

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5 minutes ago, Amati said:

Folks who are into a subset of CLT, Critical Race Theory, could easily argue freedom to infect is a core value of slave holding, which, for example, had  supporting laws establishing the slaveholder legality of physically punishing or even killing a slave.  Power is a sneaky thing, especially if you can do it anonymously, like asymptomatic spread of COVID.  In a techno/scientific world, power becomes an more slippery concept, as causation become more apparent, and concepts of Personal Liberty are redefined.  Joseph Masco, in his book ‘The Nuclear Borderlands’ shows a version of how power spills into culture, politics, and even aesthetics & emotional life, although not explicitly a book concerning CLT.  So as I wander towards a point, right now, as CLT would predict (which is what theories should do), the freedom to infect is codified into law by a more powerful group

This is nutty

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1 minute ago, IPLore said:

I think helmets and safety belts are completely different from vaccination.

Nobody is putting out misinformation about motorbike helmets.  Nobody is claiming that wearing a helmet is bad for your health and even the most ardent hells angel knows that wearing a helmet is safer, and the trade off is the freedom of wind n your hair etc.  and the freedom to make your own assessment of how carefully you ride.   Lets not go down the helmet discussion......it is a poor analogy.

The vaccine resistance is partly based on misinformation , and not taking a vaccine potentially harms the rest of society in extending the pandemic.

Schools have had compulsory vaccines for a long time .   Vaccines have transformed quality of life and life expectancy. 

Do you understand the difference between an EUA and an approval?  Do you know how many and who on the Advisory Committee voted against and why?  Do you know if they have been proven to be insightful?

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24 minutes ago, IPLore said:

I think helmets and safety belts are completely different from vaccination.

Nobody is putting out misinformation about motorbike helmets.  Nobody is claiming that wearing a helmet is bad for your health and even the most ardent hells angel knows that wearing a helmet is safer, and the trade off is the freedom of wind n your hair etc.  and the freedom to make your own assessment of how carefully you ride.   Lets not go down the helmet discussion......it is a poor analogy.

The vaccine resistance is partly based on misinformation , and not taking a vaccine potentially harms the rest of society in extending the pandemic.

Schools have had compulsory vaccines for a long time .   Vaccines have transformed quality of life and life expectancy. 

We’ll, actually, Idaho there was an argument floating around that helmets restrict vision and hearing, as well as the weight affecting mobility…

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14 minutes ago, Wess said:

Do you understand the difference between an EUA and an approval?  Do you know how many and who on the Advisory Committee voted against and why?  Do you know if they have been proven to be insightful?

I did not know how  how many and who on the Advisory Committee voted against the vaccine and why? 

So I looked it up online for the Pfizer vaccine.

The initial vote was 17-4 .  Im looking up to see why.

The subsequent committee voted 11-0 in favor of EUA.  

* On December 12, 2020, ACIP voted 11–0 (three recusals) in favor of the interim recommendation for use of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine. Three ACIP members recused themselves because of participation in clinical trials and/or other studies involving companies producing COVID-19 vaccines.

I looked up the vote on the extension to younger cohorts. I know that is an issue with you.

The advisory committee voted 14-0 in favor

 https://www.aha.org/news/headline/2021-05-12-advisory-committee-recommends-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-adolescents-cdc 

 

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39 minutes ago, Wess said:

That is funny. Are there seatbelts on motorbikes?

Que the helmet question and more whining and crying and nashing of teeth.

No helmet? Great, lots and lots of people need livers and kidneys and hearts and so forth.

- DSK

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I have no problem with people riding without helmets as long as they can demonstrate that they have sufficient accident insurance coverage to eliminate any public expense if/when they're injured and for the duration of any ill effects thereof.

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42 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

This is nutty

Took me a while to wrap my head around it, but I realized for me it’s because it was so obvious…. But it is testable.

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6 minutes ago, IPLore said:

I did not know how  how many and who on the Advisory Committee voted against the vaccine and why? 

So I looked it up online for the Pfizer vaccine.

The initial vote was 17-4 .  Im looking up to see why.

The subsequent committee voted 11-0 in favor of EUA.  

* On December 12, 2020, ACIP voted 11–0 (three recusals) in favor of the interim recommendation for use of Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine. Three ACIP members recused themselves because of participation in clinical trials and/or other studies involving companies producing COVID-19 vaccines.

I looked up the vote on the extension to younger cohorts. I know that is an issue with you.

The advisory committee voted 14-0 in favor

 https://www.aha.org/news/headline/2021-05-12-advisory-committee-recommends-pfizers-covid-19-vaccine-adolescents-cdc 

 

As far as I can tell from an article in STAT, the No votes felt that the sample did not include enough 16 and 17 year olds and felt bottom end of range should have been 18 or 19. There were only 153 16 and 17 years olds in the original trial.    

Subsequently Pfizer did a trial focused on the younger cohort and that was approved 14-0.

I am not an expert.   

I shared why I was vaccinated. I am certainly not the right person to profess who voted which way and why?    If Wess has some insight in any way about the 4 votes, happy to hear.  

Seems to me 17 experts were unequivocal.  4 had qualms about data for youth. Then in May more data was available about adolescentsshowing it was effective and safe.  As vaccines roll out, a small number of incidents of myocarditis has led to a warning being added to the label .

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

LOL; no!

Want to guess the number of US states I have been to since this started early 2020? How about number of countries? I would tell you (hint it’s a big number) but you seem the sort that would cry.

I love the ad hominems you add to every post, as if they make your argument stronger.  All they do, however, is make you sound like a victim of toxic masculinity hindering brain function, trying to bolster your position with bluster rather than intelligence.  This pandemic is a case of survival of the smartest, and in your case you got lucky.  Others with your attitude are simply dead.  

Everyone here has noticed you have taken your luck at successfully recovering and tried to convert it into bravado.  "I'm so strong, no virus can get me".  My uncle died in  WWII because he was shot and didn't seek medical treatment thinking he was a tough guy - same attitude as you. The only person that has been fooled is you.

 

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God I love this place and the nutters in it.

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55 minutes ago, IPLore said:

As far as I can tell from an article in STAT, the No votes felt that the sample did not include enough 16 and 17 year olds and felt bottom end of range should have been 18 or 19. There were only 153 16 and 17 years olds in the original trial.    

Subsequently Pfizer did a trial focused on the younger cohort and that was approved 14-0.

I am not an expert.   

I shared why I was vaccinated. I am certainly not the right person to profess who voted which way and why?    If Wess has some insight in any way about the 4 votes, happy to hear.  

Seems to me 17 experts were unequivocal.  4 had qualms about data for youth. Then in May more data was available about adolescentsshowing it was effective and safe.  As vaccines roll out, a small number of incidents of myocarditis has led to a warning being added to the label .

More data coming out about schoolkids being spreaders, too.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Rain Man said:

 This pandemic is a case of survival of the smartest, and in your case you got lucky.  Others with your attitude are simply dead.  

 

 

Went to the bank today and found the manager I usually deal with was not there. Asked about her and turns out she went to a gathering in Florida a while back, caught covid, then hospitalized, and now dead. In her fifties, out of shape but not obvious obese or otherwise vulnerable. Only thing, she was not vaccinated. Essentially, only the unvaccinated are being hospitalized and some dying from covid now in the US, and it is all so unnecessary, traumatic for their families, costly to society, and a massive ongoing drag on the medical system. All because of the lies told by some people that manage to convince others against vaccination.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

God I love this place and the nutters in it.

Here's the thing: you are a self-proclaimed tough guy.   Really tough, strong people (male, female etc.) have no need to advertise their toughness - it is obvious to everyone around them.  They also don't put others down.

That you do tells us everything we need to know.

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10 hours ago, Rain Man said:

One could argue they have a vested interest in keeping their customers alive.  Dead customers don't purchase pharmaceuticals.

No good deed goes unpunished. When complicated vaccine regimes for infants are used in the developed world, they are held out as evidence how dangerous vaccines are. When vaccines for the developing world that are uncomplicated enough for their public health systems to deliver are developed (funded by generous donors)-that's held out as evidence that the recipients are human guinea pigs. 

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With the ongoing vaccinations there comes a paradigm shift.

People may get their shots to protect themselves, which is reasonable, and as a side effect they will protect those around them, which is practical. That is what a herd does and it still translates into societies. Hence herd immunity.

This shift affects the position of the anti-vaxxers, the self proclaimed freedom fighters living their "self sufficient" lives while being surrounded and embedded by any number of treats the society they live in provides, like roads, schools, electricity, water supplies, a police, fire fighters, hospitals, vaccination programs and an actual army to defend them.

At some point their stance changes to free loaders. They become parasitic, feeding off a huge number of society efforts but without doing their part. Small minded, hesitant and afraid yet still entitled, but to what?

If it's between me and them, I'll send flowers.

 

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

More data coming out about schoolkids being spreaders, too.

- DSK

A good friend of ours caught covid from their 19 year old daughter.  He recovered but it was not a good time. He was hospitalized.

The daughter feels terrible about it and continues to blame herself despite all reassurances to the contrary. 

Im not sure how we deal with school this Fall. The kids cannot endure another school year missed. The teachers and parents dont want to be exposed to the  odds of getting a breakthough covid case from a breakthrough variant. (If a vaccine is 70% effectve and there are 100 teachers????)

All the private schools are mandating vaccines where the age group has an approved vaccine.

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3 minutes ago, Grog said:

free loaders. They become parasitic, feeding off a huge number of society efforts but without doing their part. Small minded, hesitant and afraid yet still entitled

And what's really frustrating is that a whole Hell of a lot of them do this, all the while complaining about other people "being on welfare," etc.

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2 hours ago, TheDragon said:

Essentially, only the unvaccinated are being hospitalized and some dying from covid now in the US, and it is all so unnecessary, traumatic for their families, costly to society, and a massive ongoing drag on the medical system. All because of the lies told by some people that manage to convince others against vaccination.

Survival of the fittest/smartest

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I

6 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

And what's really frustrating is that a whole Hell of a lot of them do this, all the while complaining about other people "being on welfare," etc.

I have at least one good friend who is not vaccinated. The last thing he would want to be is a free-loader.  He and his wife are careful to still wear a mask at the club .  He is simply concerned about having a negative reaction to the vaccine. He is not small minded and nor is he political......just very worried about having adverse effect.  We should be careful not to categorize. 

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3 minutes ago, IPLore said:

I

I have at least one good friend who is not vaccinated. The last thing he would want to be is a free-loader.  He and his wife are careful to still wear a mask at the club .  He is simply concerned about having a negative reaction to the vaccine. He is not small minded and nor is he political......just very worried about having adverse effect.  We should be careful not to categorize. 

Why should we be afraid to categorize the reasons that people don't get vaccinated, and the categories that human beings fall into, if those categories exist?  @Grog described one such category, and I expanded on it.  Others include people whose churches or religious affiliations have led them to believe they shouldn't be vaccinated, and people who have fallen for conspiracy posts on the internet.

Those categories and distinctions have to be made, if different groups exist. Some we might be able to reason with, others we can't.

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