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When offered the Vaccine, will you take it?


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Oh looky here!  As soon as Trump was fucked off the rate of deaths declined!

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The private sector has embarked on a major campaign to reassure the public that they will not release a vaccine until they are confident it is safe and effective. We can expect a joint statement from

You/they ARE participating in the trial, like it or not. You're the control group, no different than if you got a saline shot but without the ethical dilemmas that would involve. Thank you a

As many of you know I am right of center politically.  I dont think vaccines are a political issue or at least they should not be.  My family are all vaccinated. I tried to think of how I should

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12 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Precisely.  Essentially the researchers went looking for damage.  

The asymptomatic covid causing organ damage narrative arose out of some very limited research that found some evidence of lung occlusion and mild heart inflammation in individuals that had displayed no OR mild covid symptoms.

The studies I've read the sample sizes were small and had done very little research on the individuals past medical history, individual or environment risk.

 

9 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Where is this evidence?

Maybe in the research you mentioned.

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3 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

But that article mentions nothing about asymptomatic cases.

Correct. I have zero interest in the asym discussion.

The original debate was about whether young people should get vaccinated.

This article examines organ damage in young, low risk people who contract CV19.

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8 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Where is yours?  I just don't get why some of you are so intent on posting misinformation. Weird.

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14 minutes ago, Wess said:

My gosh that is crap.

Then it is perfect material for SA covid threads.  :)

Although I observe that BMJ gets praised as an authoritative source at one moment and then accused of publishing crap the next, depending on who is quoting what.

I am not qualified to pass a judgement on the article. The topic was organ damage . It was based on actual research, so I pass it on

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The title of the research paper is

Long Covid : Damage to multiple organs presents in young, low risk patients

Initial data from 201 patients suggest that almost 70% had impairments in one or more organs four months after their initial symptoms of SARS-CoV-2 infection.

 

I observe that the median age was 44 yrs.....so this is not so very "young"  and was looking at patients with persistent symptoms  aka "long covid"

 

So the conclusion I draw from the article is that the risk of covid is not only mortality but the risk of long covid . Long Covid appears to carry a high risk of organ damage and you do not have to be in the high risk category of over 60 to contract long covid and the effects of long covid.

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Nothing I read in these threads makes me regret or question my decision and my family's decision to get vaccinated.

There are pages and pages and pages of people splitting hairs and coming up with arguments and counter arguments , spurious and reputable research.

But the simple fact is that by getting vaccinated my family and I have significantly reduced the chances of our catching Covid and significantly reduced the probability of passing covid on to other people. 

Those are two good reasons enough for me to get vaccinated.  

 

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

Then it is perfect material for SA covid threads.  :)

Although I observe that BMJ gets praised as an authoritative source at one moment and then accused of publishing crap the next, depending on who is quoting what.

I am not qualified to pass a judgement on the article. The topic was organ damage . It was based on actual research, so I pass it on

I don’t know the guy from Adam and have never quoted him. For reasons you know I will not quote anyone.

I do see in your subsequent posts you have picked up on some of the interest aspects. Young is what… impairment is what… he, she or it note they can’t establish a causal relationship. The punch line is 70%. Now I ask you…. seriously… does that pass a sniff test. That some 70% of any of them…. never mind the young…have some serious long lasting problem post covid. Want to buy a bridge? 

I will quote common sense and that implied headline is absurd. And if you look in medical journals you can find truth. But back to common sense… as you know I am associated with a confined group of truly young and healthy. About 4000. The numbers that got covid is not insignificant as you can imagine given the circumstances. Now those folks are monitored for physical readiness on a regular basis. No change. I know my own health well - as does the kid (her because of the job, me because of training for the coming hikes and climbs) - and we got a fat zero issues post covid. Of the 4000 mentioned some who go south after DTA get very in depth physicals regular because our dear Uncle knows they alone could destroy a piece of high tech hardware worth lots if their health is even slightly compromised. Again, zero issues after many covid cases. 
 

All this is is politicians wanting a problem they can take credit for fixing and news media wanting to sell air time. Delta, long term issues, and on and on.

Bunk. I have more long term issues from prior sprained ankles than I do from covid. 
 

In fact the only thing I got from covid was a bunch of paperwork. 
 

The sky ain’t falling.

Unless it’s your kid that is one of the rare unlucky ones that dies from a vaccine they likely got forced into and maybe didn’t need. And thanks to corporate attorneys screwing the little guy yet again, there is no legal recourse.

 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

I don’t know the guy from Adam and have never quoted him. For reasons you know I will not quote anyone.

I do see in your subsequent posts you have picked up on some of the interest aspects. Young is what… impairment is what… he, she or it note they can’t establish a causal relationship. The punch line is 70%. Now I ask you…. seriously… does that pass a sniff test. That some 70% of any of them…. never mind the young…have some serious long lasting problem post covid. Want to buy a bridge? 

I will quote common sense and that implied headline is absurd. And if you look in medical journals you can find truth. But back to common sense… as you know I am associated with a confined group of truly young and healthy. About 4000. The numbers that got covid is not insignificant as you can imagine given the circumstances. Now those folks are monitored for physical readiness on a regular basis. No change. I know my own health well - as does the kid (her because of the job, me because of training for the coming hikes and climbs) - and we got a fat zero issues post covid. Of the 4000 mentioned some who go south after DTA get very in depth physicals regular because our dear Uncle knows they alone could destroy a piece of high tech hardware worth lots if their health is even slightly compromised. Again, zero issues after many covid cases. 
 

All this is is politicians wanting a problem they can take credit for fixing and news media wanting to sell air time. Delta, long term issues, and on and on.

Bunk. I have more long term issues from prior sprained ankles than I do from covid. 
 

In fact the only thing I got from covid was a bunch of paperwork. 
 

The sky ain’t falling.

Unless it’s your kid that is one of the rare unlucky ones that dies from a vaccine they likely got forced into and maybe didn’t need. And thanks to corporate attorneys screwing the little guy yet again, there is no legal recourse.

 

 

 

Not you, but some folks have been quoting BMJ (British Medical Journal) in support of the lab escape theory. I think the BMJ publishes reasonably well accredited research but is not responsible for content. 

The research seems to be narrowly focused on long covid sufferers. 

The study does not indicate what proportion of people suffer from long covid. 

We have two members of our YC suffering from long covid. Both had covid over 6 months ago (one over a year ago).  One was severe covid , hospitalized, recovered but remains unwell and unable to return to work .  The other had moderate covid, never hospitalized but still not a full recovery.  One in early 40s, the other early 50s.  This is unscientific sample, but I do not want to catch covid. 

Nobody in our YC has died from vaccine.  Have there been any reports of people actually dying due to a adverse reaction to the covid vaccine?  I realze people die from other causes post vaccine (a lot of old people hav ebeen vaccinated) but has anyone actually died from a complication of the vaccine itself.  You post that comment as if it has been documented.

 

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@IPLore - I have not and am not saying the vaccine is dangerous. For someone old and unhealthy covid is clearly dangerous. It’s an easy decision. Has and will others die from the vaccine. Of course. Rare event to be sure but it’s the nature of the beast (almost any drug). This is why therapies are approved on the basis of risk benefit. Nothing had zero risk. 
 

A unique aspect of the covid debate is that most here argue about the benefit to society of getting folks vaccinated. That is likely to be true. BUT. And it’s a big but that matters ethically…. Is that this is NOT the way drugs are supposed to be approved, or endorse or recommended even by the medical community at large. The risk benefit is supposed to be relative to the subject or patient and NOT society.  For to old or even average middle aged (typical American is obese and unhealthy) the risk benefit argues clearly for vaccine. If you are young and healthy that is far less clear speaking solely from the standpoint of the subject and not in terms of society (which is an unethical - and unlawful - argument IMHO). Now add onto that situation that young folks are being forced into it by various institutions both public and private and that corporate lawyer and lobbyist scum have ensured there is no practical legal recourse for these folks when they are harmed by said vaccine (and alas somebody will be… small number which you will say doesn’t matter in big picture but I say matters if you are the kid or mom or dad of said kid) and it adds up to be a double whammy. 

if you are fat or old or unhealthy go get vaccinated. If you do and you a tree still scared go hide in your basement and or get a bunny suit and respirator and learn to wear it right and wear it forever because there will be another one after covid - but leave young healthy (or anyone) who doesn’t want to partake in the science experiment alone. You, I or others should have no right to force our views re medical treatment on somebody else simply because you are scared of the realities of the world and unable to take care of yourself.

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@Wess I understand your viewpoint. You have been consistent.

  • You are not an anti-vaxxer.  The vaccine is not dangerous. Older and at risk people should take the vaccine.
  • All drugs have some risk , no matter how small, so younger people who are less at risk the choice is less clear cut
  • Eliminating covid as a society benefit should not be an objective of the vaccination program.

My youngsters happen to disagree and I hope you respect their decision

  • Currently, no matter how small, the risk of catching covid and having some adverse side effcts seems equal to or larger than any downside from the vaccine for young people. They avoided getting covid during any of the surges and are now very happy to be vaccinated.
  • They want society to reopen. They are social creatures. They see a benefit to themselves in conquering covid .
  • On a personal family level, they enjoy visiting parents, uncles, grandparents.  They do not want to be responsible for transmitting covid to family, friends and society
  • They truly believe that if we get to something around 80% of adults vaccinated in a timely manner , covid can be supressed i its early stages before too many mutations occur to ruin the social outlook for the rest of their long lives

They both got vaccinated independently of my wife and I. They were not scared of getting vaccinated. The odds of adverse effects seemed very small to them.

We saw them over July 4th and it was very much nicer not to be wearing masks as a family.

So again, I see all this agonizing over vaccination and pouring over research papers as largely superfluous.  The facts seem simple enough to me.  The probability of catching covid is significantly reduced if I get vaccinated. The probability of severe Covid is enormously reduced.  We have vaccinated hundreds of millions and the risk still seems infinitesimally small.  I chose to get vaccinated and  recommend to my friends they get vaccinated.

Again, I am right of center, Republican (not an ardent activist by any means).  I dont think this is about politics or liberty. I just think it is common sense.   I also think that right wing people care about our country and our society and believe in doing some things for the common good. 

I might disagree with many of our Democrats on the roles of government and private enterprise but I believe that covid is a common enemy.

 

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@IPLore - I have no problem with any youth (or other) that gets vaccinated. I have a problem with those that try to jam their view down the throat of somebody that doesn’t want to especially if it’s a younger healthy person where the benefit (ignoring societal) is not so clear cut. For those that I associate with nothing ever really closed and certainly nothing is now.  And it ain’t my - or their - job to reopen a society and economy that they didn’t close and never asked to be closed. The chickenshits closed it. The chickenshits can fix it. Not my problem. :P

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Oh and your language of “seems equal to or” should send shivers down your spine. The mortality risk is so absurdly low for that cohort and the standards for approval in terms of adverse events have historically had to be essentially zero for such a cohort and disease/therapy. It it take a long time and lots of data to statistically prove it’s near zero. And that is faarrrr from proven here. 
 

So if you accept that we as a society don’t have the right to force others to take a personal risk to benefit us (society) then why did you post prior that the legal exemption granted to these companies with regard this vaccine is a good thing? 
 

You are not an idiot. You know it’s true that some individuals are being essentially forced to take a personal risk they may not want to take to benefit society and at the same time society is telling them they have no legal recourse if harmed. As a lawyer should you not care about these people and a construct that is entirely unfair to them?

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

@IPLore - I have no problem with any youth (or other) that gets vaccinated. I have a problem with those that try to jam their view down the throat of somebody that doesn’t want to especially if it’s a younger healthy person where the benefit (ignoring societal) is not so clear cut. For those that I associate with nothing ever really closed and certainly nothing is now.  And it ain’t my - or their - job to reopen a society and economy that they didn’t close and never asked to be closed. The chickenshits closed it. The chickenshits can fix it. Not my problem. :P

I understand your POV  @Wess.   You are not anti-vaxx, just anti-enforced vaxx or society putting pressure on youth to get vax. 

So one question is, what do you think of employers requiring/mandating vaccines?  I read earlier in the thread that Eye is mandating that all of her employees get vaccinated and insists her new hire get vaccinated.   I also read that several state healthcare systems are mandating a vaccine for all hospital employees from janitor to neurosurgeon.  Its is not impossible that Amazon mandates a vaccine for its warehouse employees.

My first thoughts is that an employer is free to set whatever standard they like at their own firm. This is especially true of a small business, where the owner might want to create an environment safe for him/herself and employees.  If @EYESAILOR is vaccinated and wants to be safe, can she limit herself to vaccinated employees?  If the cruise liners perceive a demand  for vaccinated cruises, can they mandate all employees are vaccinated?  If I run a local restaurant with a busy crowded kitchen and a brilliant, mercurial, 70 year old chef, can I mandate that the 20 something year old wait staf and kitchen staff need to be vaccinated to qualify for a job offer?

This sort of thing is going to get very interesting. 

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COVID-19 Outbreaks Hit Summer Camps — Are Schools Next?
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/coronavirus-outbreaks-summer-camps_n_60ed4335e4b00ef876152fe5

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The U.S. has seen a string of COVID-19 outbreaks tied to summer camps in recent weeks in places such as Texas, Illinois, Florida, Missouri and Kansas, in what some fear could be a preview of the upcoming school year.

 

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56 minutes ago, Wess said:

Oh and your language of “seems equal to or” should send shivers down your spine. The mortality risk is so absurdly low for that cohort and the standards for approval in terms of adverse events have historically had to be essentially zero for such a cohort and disease/therapy. It it take a long time and lots of data to statistically prove it’s near zero. And that is faarrrr from proven here. 
 

So if you accept that we as a society don’t have the right to force others to take a personal risk to benefit us (society) then why did you post prior that the legal exemption granted to these companies with regard this vaccine is a good thing? 
 

You are not an idiot. You know it’s true that some individuals are being essentially forced to take a personal risk they may not want to take to benefit society and at the same time society is telling them they have no legal recourse if harmed. As a lawyer should you not care about these people and a construct that is entirely unfair to them?

Sorry we cross posted.

Why do I think that vaccine manufacturers are exempt from suit?  I have answered that in an earlier post  on this thread or elsewhere. 

We have existing law that provides vaccine suits go to the "vaccine court" and seek compensation from the National Vaccine Compensation Program. 

In order to achieve the speed of vaccine roll out, protection was extended to the EUAs for covid vaccines.  They are not protected against gross negligence or deliberately falsifying data. If the FDA considered the vaccine safe enough for EUA, based on the trials then the manufacturer is protected

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No I mean given how it’s being mandated is this not a bad thing for the healthy both for who don’t want to be forced?

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5 minutes ago, Wess said:

No I mean given how it’s being mandated is this not a bad thing for the healthy both for who don’t want to be forced?

Oh you mean mandated by employers and service providers (cruise ships, restaurants, etc)?

I guess I believe in free enterprise and the right of the owner of a business to choose his or her employees  and offer the service they think their customers want, provided they dont discriminate on race or gender.

Is that the question?  

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

I understand your POV  @Wess.   You are not anti-vaxx, just anti-enforced vaxx or society putting pressure on youth to get vax. 

So one question is, what do you think of employers requiring/mandating vaccines?  I read earlier in the thread that Eye is mandating that all of her employees get vaccinated and insists her new hire get vaccinated.   I also read that several state healthcare systems are mandating a vaccine for all hospital employees from janitor to neurosurgeon.  Its is not impossible that Amazon mandates a vaccine for its warehouse employees.

My first thoughts is that an employer is free to set whatever standard they like at their own firm. This is especially true of a small business, where the owner might want to create an environment safe for him/herself and employees.  If @EYESAILOR is vaccinated and wants to be safe, can she limit herself to vaccinated employees?  If the cruise liners perceive a demand  for vaccinated cruises, can they mandate all employees are vaccinated?  If I run a local restaurant with a busy crowded kitchen and a brilliant, mercurial, 70 year old chef, can I mandate that the 20 something year old wait staf and kitchen staff need to be vaccinated to qualify for a job offer?

This sort of thing is going to get very interesting. 

This article answers that question - yes an employer can require all employees be vaccinated or face termination.  Subject to certain limited exemptions like having allergies to an ingredient in the vaccine or being a Christian Scientist: https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/can-employer-require-covid-vaccine

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3 hours ago, IPLore said:

@EYESAILOR is vaccinated and wants to be safe, can she limit herself to vaccinated employees? 

 

It is not just about me

I also have patients and staff to consider.

Patients range in age with a tilt to the elderly at-risk demographic. I am not putting them at risk with unvaccinated employees.

All of my existing staff are vaccinated and feel safer as a team in a vaccinated environment.

Anyway, frankly, its our practice and the criteria I use for hiring is up to me.  We will only hire vaccinated team members. All of the hospitals in CT now require vaccination for employees.  Unless you have a genuine medical or religious exemption , if you don't want to get vaccinated, then you can head to FL or work in a field where caring for other people is not part of the job description. !

 

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Tennessee Health Officials Halt All Vaccine Outreach for Kids After Pressure From GOP
Though coronavirus cases are soaring and the state lags the country in vaccinations, Republicans are pushing the state's health department to pull back., Updated Jul. 13, 2021
https://www.thedailybeast.com/tennessee-health-officials-halt-all-vaccine-outreach-for-kids-after-pressure-from-gop

Quote

The number of new coronavirus cases in Tennessee has increased by more than 100 percent in the past two weeks, from 177 cases per day to 418, thanks in part to the presence of the more contagious and deadly Delta variant. The positivity rate has also more than doubled.

Only 38 percent of Tennessee residents are fully vaccinated, trailing far behind the nationwide figure of 52 percent.
[...]
Around the same time that news of the curtailed work broke, the top vaccine official in the state was fired. Dr. Michelle Fiscus, former medical director for immunization at the state’s health department, alleges she lost her job over efforts to inoculate teenagers.

“It was my job to provide evidence-based education and vaccine access so that Tennesseans could protect themselves against COVID-19. I have now been terminated for doing exactly that,” she wrote in a statement.

Republican lawmakers in the state held a fractious hearing in June during which they publicly upbraided the health commissioner and threatened to eliminate her department entirely over its advertisements urging teenagers to be vaccinated. The department ended social media campaigns promoting vaccinations in response.

 

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6 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Though coronavirus cases are soaring

 

6 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

The number of new coronavirus cases in Tennessee has increased by more than 100 percent in the past two weeks, from 177 cases per day to 418,

For perspective the peak of the only wave to date in Tennessee was 12,000 cases a day in mid-December 2020 I.e. 7 months ago.

 

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18 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

 

For perspective the peak of the only wave to date in Tennessee was 12,000 cases a day in mid-December 2020 I.e. 7 months ago.

 

Yes and at one point we only had 15 cases that was supposed to go to one. How did that work out for us?

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8 minutes ago, Gangbusters said:
28 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

For perspective the peak of the only wave to date in Tennessee was 12,000 cases a day in mid-December 2020 I.e. 7 months ago.

 

Yes and at one point we only had 15 cases that was supposed to go to one. How did that work out for us?

For those who understand math.... when something doubles in a week, what will it be next week? The week after? A month from now?

- DSK

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8 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

For those who understand math.... when something doubles in a week, what will it be next week? The week after? A month from now?

- DSK

So there have been no previous infections nor vaccinations in Tennessee?

You are the maths whiz what is the current level of immunity?  That will affect the rate of infection.

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38 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Tennessee Health Officials Halt All Vaccine Outreach for Kids After Pressure From GOP
Though coronavirus cases are soaring and the state lags the country in vaccinations, Republicans are pushing the state's health department to pull back., Updated Jul. 13, 2021
https://www.thedailybeast.com/tennessee-health-officials-halt-all-vaccine-outreach-for-kids-after-pressure-from-gop

 

Whoaaa, wait a minute, they are halting outreach for all vaccines?

The HPV vaccine has been around for over 10 years. Its safety record is unblemished and it can avoid tens of thousands of cases of cervical cancer etc. 

They are stopping sending reminders for all the standard inoculations. 

Nashville is a modern developed world city.....WTF? This is third world stuff now.

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5 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

So there have been no previous infections nor vaccinations in Tennessee?

You are the maths whiz what is the current level of immunity?  That will affect the rate of infection.

Cummon Kate....even you will admit that ceasing to send reminders for standard inoculations, ceasing school vaccination drives (which is how we all got vaccinated in our youth) and no explaining of HPV to teenagers is incredibly irresponsible.  Not all parents are as well educated and teenagers should at least have HPV explained.

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51 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Cummon Kate....even you will admit that ceasing to send reminders for standard inoculations, ceasing school vaccination drives (which is how we all got vaccinated in our youth) and no explaining of HPV to teenagers is incredibly irresponsible.  Not all parents are as well educated and teenagers should at least have HPV explained.

What is the truth though?  The Daily Beast hardly sounds like the fountain of truth on anything!

I wasn't commenting on the alleged cessation of the out reach programmes nor were the usual suspects as their one dimensional focus is only on COvid-19.  I was commenting on the alarmism and scaremongering around the Covid-19 cases.

Isn't a bit rich on your part to start worrying now about standard inoculations when they have been neglected during lockdowns and while the one dimensional public health campaign has been in operation?

What pisses me off the most is the unnecessary neglect of our adolescents and children throughout the world caused by an unfocussed pandemic strategy. 

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https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/one-in-10-covid-patients-in-hospital-as-system-plans-for-surge-20210708-p5883a.html

Last week 1 in 10 NSW cases in hospital

This week 1 in 3 NSW hospital cases in ICU 

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/nobody-is-safe-one-in-three-covid-19-hospital-patients-in-intensive-care-20210713-p589c8.html

Younger people with no previous medical problems are ending up in ICU.

Hmmmm.

 

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58 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

....

What pisses me off the most is the unnecessary neglect of our adolescents and children throughout the world caused by an unfocussed pandemic strategy. 

Doesn't it just piss you off when people don't recognize your genius? There was a guy named Mikey who used to hang around here, he felt the same way... had the same ideas about how much better the world would be if only the world paid attention to his crackpot theories.... anti-vaxxer, covid denier, closet Trumpalo, too... maybe you have a twin brother your mom never told you about......

- DSK

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Some posters here are big on the Leak theory, they just won't fucking stop banging on about it.  Must be the only doctor I know of with time to top thread post counts.

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43 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Doesn't it just piss you off when people don't recognize your genius? There was a guy named Mikey who used to hang around here, he felt the same way... had the same ideas about how much better the world would be if only the world paid attention to his crackpot theories.... anti-vaxxer, covid denier, closet Trumpalo, too... maybe you have a twin brother your mom never told you about......

- DSK

Yeah well it would have been so much easier to stick to the WHO pandemic plan just like Sweden did.

But I guess the USA listened to your advice instead.

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Whoaaa, wait a minute, they are halting outreach for all vaccines?

The HPV vaccine has been around for over 10 years. Its safety record is unblemished and it can avoid tens of thousands of cases of cervical cancer etc. 

They are stopping sending reminders for all the standard inoculations. 

Nashville is a modern developed world city.....WTF? This is third world stuff now.

The teens there were going to have sex without procreation! :o  But not with Ayn Rand nerds.

Imagine what will happen when the Right discovers Industrial Effluent Teratogens!  Oh right, they don’t care about that, for the usual reasons…..

 Started reading ‘Cruelty is the Point’.  Nothing new really, but the title does sum up things.  Nashville is surrounded by the third world because the right there wants to pretend they’re Bokom Haram, or Isis, or the crowd running Cuba.  The urge for power, I guess.  Slaveholder mentality.  Meeting out punishment or death as they see fit.

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Here's @EYESAILOR Mikey's sock, feeding back in.

"However I think this paper is useful to have on these threads so that folks can hear the "other side" of the argument from Kate SB. "

eyesailor and Kate shit for brains are Mikey,  no doubt about it.

No practicing doctor has the time to be top thread poster on this shit, let alone agree with a shill with no medical qualifications.

ooooops-your-busted.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, random. said:

Here's @EYESAILOR Mikey's sock, feeding back in.

"However I think this paper is useful to have on these threads so that folks can hear the "other side" of the argument from Kate SB. "

eyesailor and Kate shit for brains are Mikey,  no doubt about it.

No practicing doctor has the time to be top thread poster on this shit, let alone agree with a shill with no medical qualifications.

ooooops-your-busted.jpg

 

You are nuts. Eyesailor was posting here years before Wofsey & you even knew about this place. Years & years FFS.

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2 minutes ago, 00seven said:

You are nuts. Eyesailor was posting here years before Wofsey & you even knew about this place. Years & years FFS.

Still Mikey.

950667dc1dad9f045ac3c42d8a02596d.jpg

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11 minutes ago, random. said:

Still Mikey.

 

And you're still an idiot. You can repeat your bullshit as much as you like, it's still bullshit. 

Everybody knows you're a bullshitter.

 

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That all you got Grumpy?  Bullshit?  You want to talk about bullshitting?

Tewl me a story unka Gwumpy about how there was never a hotel in Darwin with a view of da water-front park!  Tell me dat storwy unka gwumpy.

image.png.e5604f8c0766f435f9321b17a59eab20.png

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35 minutes ago, random. said:

That all you got Grumpy?  Bullshit?  You want to talk about bullshitting?

Tewl me a story unka Gwumpy about how there was never a hotel in Darwin with a view of da water-front park!  Tell me dat storwy unka gwumpy.

image.png.e5604f8c0766f435f9321b17a59eab20.png

See what I mean? You just make shit up. You're a bullshitter.

You could always provide a cite of where I made any such statement. Go on, I bet you can't.

60+ years of age and you still use baby talk. Sad....smh

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2 minutes ago, 00seven said:

 

You could always provide a cite of where I made any such statement. Go on, I bet you can't.

60+ years of age and you still use baby talk. Sad....smh

So you went back and hid it?

What a sneaky cunt you are Grumpy.  What a bad man!

Q7L.gif

 

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1 minute ago, random. said:

So you went back and hid it?

What a sneaky cunt you are Grumpy.  What a bad man!

 

Nah mate, I'm a grown up and don't need to hide anything. Go ahead and cite instead of making shit up.

Your bullshitting has made you pretty much irrelevant.

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33 minutes ago, 00seven said:
38 minutes ago, random. said:

So you went back and hid it?

What a sneaky cunt you are Grumpy.  What a bad man!

 

Nah mate, I'm a grown up and don't need to hide anything. Go ahead and cite instead of making shit up.

Your bullshitting has made you pretty much irrelevant.

So here is the screen shot of my post and the ONE YOU HID,  See blank quote.  Go on use the link and see if you can find the post I obviously quoted!!!!!

Linked here.

What a lying cunt you are!

image.png.10ea88a95b107c0048db907d554a893f.png

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6 minutes ago, random. said:

So here is the screen shot of my post and the ONE YOU HID,  See blank quote.  Go on use the link and see if you can find the post I obviously quoted!!!!!

Linked here.

What a lying cunt you are!

image.png.10ea88a95b107c0048db907d554a893f.png

Q7L.gif

Where's the quote bullshitter? You know how, just like I do....

Go on, paste it in there, it's not difficult.

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Here's how it went.

Grumpy the lying cunt claimed that there was no hotel in Darwin with a view of a water front park.

random the legend posted evidence that there was when he was there.

Grumpy the lying cunt 'hid' the post I quoted.  It's blank now.  Click on the arrow top right of the quote and it finds ... NOTHING!  It's hidden!

See for yourself!

Funni as fuck!

847eed2503bf544f997b97a76a573cde.gif

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50 minutes ago, random. said:

Here's how it went.

Grumpy the lying cunt claimed that there was no hotel in Darwin with a view of a water front park.

random the legend posted evidence that there was when he was there.

Grumpy the lying cunt 'hid' the post I quoted.  It's blank now.  Click on the arrow top right of the quote and it finds ... NOTHING!  It's hidden!

See for yourself!

Funni as fuck!

 

Your link is to nowhere. A post where you deleted my words.

You think the rest of the members here are stupid? This is why you have no relevance. "So many fuckwits, so little time". That's you.

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4 hours ago, random. said:

Here's @EYESAILOR Mikey's sock, feeding back in.

"However I think this paper is useful to have on these threads so that folks can hear the "other side" of the argument from Kate SB. "

eyesailor and Kate shit for brains are Mikey,  no doubt about it.

No practicing doctor has the time to be top thread poster on this shit, let alone agree with a shill with no medical qualifications.

 

 

 Eye is strongly in favor of vaccination for Covid . Kate SB is anti vax 

Kate advocates Invermectin as cure for Covid and preventative. Eye called BS on that.

Kate says the leak was definitely from a lab, Eye says there is no proof of that and it could be either zootonic or lab leak.

I doubt that Eye and Kate are related in any way.  

This thread has gone way off topic overnight.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, 00seven said:

Your link is to nowhere. A post where you deleted my words.

You think the rest of the members here are stupid? This is why you have no relevance. "So many fuckwits, so little time". That's you.

Perhaps this fight should be taken back to the Australian thread.

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26 minutes ago, IPLore said:
5 hours ago, random. said:

Here's @EYESAILOR Mikey's sock, feeding back in.

"However I think this paper is useful to have on these threads so that folks can hear the "other side" of the argument from Kate SB. "

eyesailor and Kate shit for brains are Mikey,  no doubt about it.

No practicing doctor has the time to be top thread poster on this shit, let alone agree with a shill with no medical qualifications.

 

 

Expand  

Expand  

 Eye is strongly in favor of vaccination for Covid . Kate SB is anti vax 

Kate advocates Invermectin as cure for Covid and preventative. Eye called BS on that.

Kate says the leak was definitely from a lab, Eye says there is no proof of that and it could be either zootonic or lab leak.

I doubt that Eye and Kate are related in any way.  

This thread has gone way off topic overnight.

??

Well, now that Randummy has asserted that it's true, I doubt that KSFB is really Wofsey. EYE is certainly not, at least not on this planet. Neither am I... Mrs Steam would be deeply chagrined

But this thread had deteriorated before, anyway

- DSK

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Back on topic.

Back at the tail end of 2020, I had been optimistic that by the late summer of 2021, we would be seeing the effects of a vaccine roll out and a steady decline in the pandemic in the developed world gathering momentum into the Fall.  I did not expect the so called third (or fourth depending on definition) wave.

Two things have hindered that progress

1.  The Delta variant , which appears to be a factor more infectious among unvaccinated and sufficiently infectious that some of the vaccine while still effective, is less effective.   All that can happen here is the development of booster shots.  But the vaccine can still throttle the disease if enough people get vaccinated. Mathematically if a vaccine is 88% effective instead of 95% effective, more people vaccinated will provide the same level of herd immunity as the virus runs out of available hosts.

2. Vaccine hesitancy is greater that I would have anticipated. I find it very hard in my heart to forgive those anti-vaxxers who spread fear and misinformation and thus prolong the pandemic.  I try to sympathize with the more logical arguments about the risk/benefit for low risk categories, but ultimately those arguments are short sighted because the benefit is long term.   Untill and unless our society is determined to squash the disease via vaccination, this will lower the quality of life for a large proportion of the population, young and old.

That is enough from me. 

You know my stance on vaccination.  I think the FDA EUA approved vaccines continue to be safe and I hope we can subdue even the Delta variant in the US

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2 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Back on topic.

Back at the tail end of 2020, I had been optimistic that by the late summer of 2021, we would be seeing the effects of a vaccine roll out and a steady decline in the pandemic in the developed world gathering momentum into the Fall.  I did not expect the so called third (or fourth depending on definition) wave.

Two things have hindered that progress

1.  The Delta variant , which appears to be a factor more infectious among unvaccinated and sufficiently infectious that some of the vaccine while still effective, is less effective.   All that can happen here is the development of booster shots.  But the vaccine can still throttle the disease if enough people get vaccinated. Mathematically if a vaccine is 88% effective instead of 95% effective, more people vaccinated will provide the same level of herd immunity as the virus runs out of available hosts.

2. Vaccine hesitancy is greater that I would have anticipated. I find it very hard in my heart to forgive those anti-vaxxers who spread fear and misinformation and thus prolong the pandemic.  I try to sympathize with the more logical arguments about the risk/benefit for low risk categories, but ultimately those arguments are short sighted because the benefit is long term.   Untill and unless our society is determined to squash the disease via vaccination, this will lower the quality of life for a large proportion of the population, young and old.

That is enough from me. 

You know my stance on vaccination.  I think the FDA EUA approved vaccines continue to be safe and I hope we can subdue even the Delta variant in the US

We’re on defense.  I hope the government encourages development and rapid deployment of boosters for anyone that wants one - the CDC etc downplaying the Pfizer booster is craven and dangerous.  If Moderna comes up with one, I will take it, and pay for it out of pocket, if needs be.  We’re going to order another 1000 Armbruster ASTM 2 masks.  Biden and his team are fucking this up.  There’s got to be a plan B- ongoing vaccinations w/ boosters, masking, and distancing, along with proof of vaccinations on demand.  We were talking with some neighbors whilst on dog walkies, and they were old enough to remember polio vaccinations among others.  Perhaps, even with all the deaths, the reality of this pandemic has been made too sterile and behind closed doors.  Those of us who are not nihilistic in nature need all the tools we can find.  Relying on everybody to act in good faith is chimera.  Cuba is a chilling example of where Fox and the Trumpublican party wants to take us.  People of good faith here are still hiding at home, when they can.  Sorry to be so pessimistic.  

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51 minutes ago, Amati said:

We’re on defense.  I hope the government encourages development and rapid deployment of boosters for anyone that wants one - the CDC etc downplaying the Pfizer booster is craven and dangerous.  If Moderna comes up with one, I will take it, and pay for it out of pocket, if needs be.  We’re going to order another 1000 Armbruster ASTM 2 masks.  Biden and his team are fucking this up.  There’s got to be a plan B- ongoing vaccinations w/ boosters, masking, and distancing, along with proof of vaccinations on demand.  We were talking with some neighbors whilst on dog walkies, and they were old enough to remember polio vaccinations among others.  Perhaps, even with all the deaths, the reality of this pandemic has been made too sterile and behind closed doors.  Those of us who are not nihilistic in nature need all the tools we can find.  Relying on everybody to act in good faith is chimera.  Cuba is a chilling example of where Fox and the Trumpublican party wants to take us.  People of good faith here are still hiding at home, when they can.  Sorry to be so pessimistic.  

Lets try not to be pessimistic.   We have the science to beat this thing.  

Many Republicans want this thing beat as much as you.   You cannot beat this on your own. This requires an endeavor from all of us. 

My family has done its part. We are vaccinated. If we need a booster, we will get boosted.  

The CDC cannot divert vaccinations to booster shots if there are still arms that want the first shots. But once those are done, if the medical objective research supports it then I will also get vaccinated again.  

Surely we are assembling data that will tell us which are the most effective vaccines and which have the better safety records.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I am hoping the booster is for variants. Or the second booster is. I get a few shots a year, what's a couple more. 

The arms wanting shots are dwindling. At some point we are going to have to tell the undecided, decide now or risk waiting once you want one. You won't be first in line anymore but you can get them, free.. And tell the reluctant, ok we tried you don't want it, you don't care if you breed variants, go to hell. 

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My view is that we have more and more data on the vaccine every month that passes.  The first shots went into arms back in June 2020.

One concern that is being monitored closely is mycarditis.

I DO NOT CLAIM TO BE A SCIENTIST OF HAVE ANY MEDICAL SKILLS. I merely spent a bit of time reading up on the latest data which the CDC publishes and googling myocaditis studies on CV19.  All errors are mine, anything useful can be attributed to an article inJAMA.

There have been more than 334 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines administered in the US. 12.8 million J and J and 322 million mRNA doses

The FDA has cautioned the there have been some instances of mild myocardia. 1067 reported and 633 confirmed individual instances.  That is an incident rate of 0.00019% .

Leaving aside the study in Germany which suggested that approximately half of all recovered covid cases had myocarditis, there are 2 US studies I am aware of

Of 26 male and female competitive athletes at The Ohio State University, 4 had CMR findings consistent with myocarditis and 8 others had evidence of scarring on their hearts, although none had elevated troponin levels. All the players in the study, which was published in JAMA Cardiology, had asymptomatic or nonsevere SARS-CoV-2 infections and were scanned 11 to 53 days after quarantining for 2 weeks.  This would suggest somewhere around 15% risk of myocarditis for young people who catch nonsevere Covid.

. In January, University of Wisconsin-Madison athletics reported that only 2 of its 145 student athletes recovering from asymptomatic to moderate COVID-19 had myocarditis based on CMR. This would suggest a risk of 1.3% of myocarditis.

Taking the lower figure, the risk of myocarditis from the virus is 685X greater from the virus than from the vaccine.  Since all of the myocarditis cases post- vaccine resolved them selves and the inflammation died down, I think the risk benefit with regard to myocarditis rewards getting vaccinated.

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6 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

You know my stance on vaccination.  I think the FDA EUA approved vaccines continue to be safe and I hope we can subdue even the Delta variant in the US

 I know you claim to be a doctor but all the docs I know, know the difference between "approved" and an authorization.  :P

 

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2 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Should I be worried, as I walk past metal objects if they fly and stick to my left arm? :rolleyes:

 

Only if you are about to get an MRI. 

Forgot to mention I was in your old stomping ground briefly last week. Clarkston, just outside Atlanta.  Cool place.

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35 minutes ago, Wess said:

 I know you claim to be a doctor but all the docs I know, know the difference between "approved" and an authorization.  :P

 

It is approved under an emergency use authorization.

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

Only if you are about to get an MRI. 

Forgot to mention I was in your old stomping ground briefly last week. Clarkston, just outside Atlanta.  Cool place.

I havent been back to GA since pandemic started.  I confess I do not know Clarkston, although I probably passed the exit many times. 

EUA vs Approval? Will anything significant change?

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

Taking the lower figure, the risk of myocarditis from the virus is 685X greater from the virus than from the vaccine.  Since all of the myocarditis cases post- vaccine resolved them selves and the inflammation died down, I think the risk benefit with regard to myocarditis rewards getting vaccinated.

Did the post infection cases "resolve themselves"?

The Ohio study happened a year ago.  Has there been a follow up study?  That study stated the results were unclear yet you extrapolate to the population in general.

The Wisconsin study you quote concluded "the utility of cardiac MRI as a screening tool for myocarditis in this patient population is questionable".

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56 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Did the post infection cases "resolve themselves"?

The Ohio study happened a year ago.  Has there been a follow up study?  That study stated the results were unclear yet you extrapolate to the population in general.

The Wisconsin study you quote concluded "the utility of cardiac MRI as a screening tool for myocarditis in this patient population is questionable".

 

I am no expert.   I glanced at a half dozen studies on the subject. The incidence of myocarditis accompanying covid seems to be greater than 0.00019%.   Most concluded more work needed doing and that there is selection bias.

Where the studies included acute symptoms of Covid, some of the myocardia associated with Covid was subsequently associated with death, but there were also other organs affected.

None of the vaccinated patients who demonstrated myocardia symptoms died.

 

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6 minutes ago, IPLore said:

 

 

I am no expert.   I glanced at a half dozen studies on the subject. The incidence of myocarditis accompanying covid seems to be greater than 0.00019%.   Most concluded more work needed doing and that there is selection bias.

Where the studies included acute symptoms of Covid, some of the myocardia associated with Covid was subsequently associated with death, but there were also other organs affected.

None of the vaccinated patients who demonstrated myocardia symptoms died.

 

So what's your point?

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9 hours ago, 00seven said:

Your link is to nowhere. A post where you deleted my words.

You think the rest of the members here are stupid? This is why you have no relevance. "So many fuckwits, so little time". That's you.

The only way the quoted link is not found is for it to be 'Hidden'.

You are a liar.

And no, the rest of the members are not stupid, they too can see what you have done.

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46 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

So what's your point?

My point is that the vaccine continues to look like a better bet than getting Covid. Eyeballing the literature there appears to be an increased incidence of myocarditis associated with covid, There is also some cases of transitory myocarditis with the vaccine but incredibly rare 0.00019% and less likely than covid. 

Apologies if I cast you as anti-vaxx. For some reason I did, but there has been so much mudslinging on this thread that its hard to keep track.

Currently children under 12 cannot get vaccinated in the USA.  

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

I havent been back to GA since pandemic started.  I confess I do not know Clarkston, although I probably passed the exit many times. 

EUA vs Approval? Will anything significant change?

Yeah.  People claiming to be intellectually skeptical about vax have to come up with new complaints. 

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46 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Yeah.  People claiming to be intellectually skeptical about vax have to come up with new complaints. 

No new complaints. My view has not changed. Take your science experiment and experiment on yourself. 
 

 

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1 minute ago, Wess said:

No new complaints. My view has not changed. Take your science experiment and experiment on yourself. 
 

It's no longer an "experiment" if it's been given to a couple of hundred million people

- DSK

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