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When offered the Vaccine, will you take it?


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11 minutes ago, Wess said:

I have answered repeatedly. Your failure to read ain't my problem.  Kids are at low risk of covid mortality.  If they don't want the vaccine its their call.  Period the end.

Be honest, if even a fraction of what you write is true you married into money.  Glad to see you think kids should be responsible for their own decisions. Like driving a car, getting drunk, wearing a pfd.... I could go on but I did promise Cruisin Loser I would be more polite so have to stop now.

edit: It's also possible you were born into the lucky sperm club.

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The private sector has embarked on a major campaign to reassure the public that they will not release a vaccine until they are confident it is safe and effective. We can expect a joint statement from

As many of you know I am right of center politically.  I dont think vaccines are a political issue or at least they should not be.  My family are all vaccinated. I tried to think of how I should

You are such a bag of shit wrapped in a thin veneer of pseudo self esteem. You are a walking around killer of strangers free riding on those who got vaccinated. Sponger.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

I have answered repeatedly. Your failure to read ain't my problem.  Kids are at low risk of covid mortality.  If they don't want the vaccine its their call.  Period the end.

 

But once again, you did not answer the questions

Are you aware of credible data which links the mRNA covid vaccine with deaths in young people?

Do you have any data which disagrees with the Wallace risk/benefit analysis?

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

I have answered repeatedly. Your failure to read ain't my problem.  Kids are at low risk of covid mortality.  If they don't want the vaccine its their call.  Period the end.

Are you suggesting that if someone is at a high risk it is somehow not their call?

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6 hours ago, d'ranger said:

Be honest, if even a fraction of what you write is true you married into money.  Glad to see you think kids should be responsible for their own decisions. Like driving a car, getting drunk, wearing a pfd.... I could go on but I did promise Cruisin Loser I would be more polite so have to stop now.

edit: It's also possible you were born into the lucky sperm club.

Nice try but what I write is true and the wife and I both grew up on the wrong side of the tracks. 

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5 hours ago, IPLore said:

Are you suggesting that if someone is at a high risk it is somehow not their call?

No

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5 hours ago, IPLore said:

 

But once again, you did not answer the questions

Are you aware of credible data which links the mRNA covid vaccine with deaths in young people?

Do you have any data which disagrees with the Wallace risk/benefit analysis?

Yes and there are more than mRNA vaccines

Have not read it.

No to your next two because it’s none of your or my business.

 

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38 minutes ago, Wess said:

Yes and there are more than mRNA vaccines  Yet you never post a link.

Have not read it. That figures.

 

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Friedman is on the frontline, treating COVID patients at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center. He said the hospital has seen a tenfold increase in COVID admissions.

“Virtually every single person that is getting sick enough to be admitted to the hospital has not been vaccinated,” he said.

“I can tell you that for the respiratory therapists and nurses and doctors that are having to go into rooms and take care of patients who are this sick at this stage — and to know that it’s preventable if people simply had taken the vaccine — it is an awful feeling of [post-traumatic stress disorder] and frustration,” Friedman said.

I had one patient who looked at me right before we had to place the breathing tube down, and he got very tearful and he shook his head and he said, ‘Oh my God, I think I’ve made a really, really terrible mistake,'” Friedman said.

 

There is something fundementaly evil about people who spread misinformation to discourage vaccination. 

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There is something fundamentally evil about those who would take away the freedoms of others and force their version of medicine upon and into them.

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10 hours ago, Wess said:

And yet another swing and a miss.  Holy duck dodge city batman.

You vaccine nazi over and over and over again make an argument about the benefit to society......

No

Over and over, it's proven to you that the risk of the vaccine is thousands of times lower than the risk of the disease.

And those are the only valid choices.

You -want- to connect it to socialism because you are brainwashed "socialism bad!"

 

9 hours ago, Wess said:

I have answered repeatedly. Your failure to read ain't my problem.  Kids are at low risk of covid mortality.  If they don't want the vaccine its their call.  Period the end.

But the risk of covid MORTALITY is not the only risk they have with this disease. And the risk is lower for the vaccine

That is the facts

- DSK

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Actually, Wess is proving the benefit of socialism.

After all, the vaccinated are obviously socialists.

The hospitalisations are showing the benefit of the vaccine, with the dead being only freedom loving, unvaccinated patriots!

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2 hours ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Actually, Wess is proving the benefit of socialism.

After all, the vaccinated are obviously socialists.

The hospitalisations are showing the benefit of the vaccine, with the dead being only freedom loving, unvaccinated patriots!

Dont equate vaccination with socialism. Without capitalism there would be no Moderna, no Biontech and no mRNA vaccines.

The beaches at Normandy were stormed by freedom loving patriots.

It is a good thing to be a freedom loving patriot.  A true patriot cares about their country and fellow Americans and seeks to pull together to regain pre-pandemic freedom.

Anybody spreading lies and misinformation about the vaccine (eg. "More people die from the vaccine than Covid") are neither patriots nor freedom loving.

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8 hours ago, Wess said:

There is something fundamentally evil about those who would take away the freedoms of others and force their version of medicine upon and into them.

Hey Wess ... do you have a drivers license?

WessGrimReaper.png.0a37450f89e4d16172e3c979a5794751.png

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

Dont equate vaccination with socialism. Without capitalism there would be no Moderna, no Biontech and no mRNA vaccines.

The beaches at Normandy were stormed by freedom loving patriots.

It is a good thing to be a freedom loving patriot.  A true patriot cares about their country and fellow Americans and seeks to pull together to regain pre-pandemic freedom.

Anybody spreading lies and misinformation about the vaccine (eg. "More people die from the vaccine than Covid") are neither patriots nor freedom loving.

considering moderna took a fuck load of public money and biontech are two refugees living in that german socialistic paradise, and communist russians kicked the fuck out of the nazis for quite a few years before d day, I am not sure you are on strong ground.........

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LOL I love this place. Got a really mind numbing task this weekend but can always get a laugh here. 

At the bottom of all your BS is the unavoidable fact that you want somebody else to do something with their body and healthcare decisions differently than what they want to do it. And you are willing to force them to do it if you can’t brow beat them to.
 

As so to create a benefit for you. 
 

OK boomer!

Good luck with that.

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20 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL I love this place. Got a really mind numbing task this weekend but can always get a laugh here. 

At the bottom of all your BS is the unavoidable fact that you want somebody else to do something with their body and healthcare decisions differently than what they want to do it. And you are willing to force them to do it if you can’t brow beat them to.
 

As so to create a benefit for you. 
 

OK boomer!

Good luck with that.

A person with active TB who refuses treatment can be arrested and forced to receive treatment. Do you think this is justifiable ? If not, why not?

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Just wait till the medical staff says, my body, my choice, I refuse to treat unvaccinated Covid patients except the ones due to medical conditions. A bit of triage before entering hospital is enough.
Isolated emergency hospitals with voluntary staff only. Ambulance personnel is getting sick of it the risk too, so special buses for them.
The normal healthcare has to open up for normal cases as soon as possible. Away with covid ward or covid patients at IC. This can not go on for more years. Isolate them.

As the vaccine is not proven, so is any media treatment so far, so no medicines for them, and for sure no ventilation, that really damages your body. And narcoses is of too.

You only have to have an inkling of history to see leper colonies are coming back for the die hard refusers. You can not let them free again, they will get infected again...

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So much hyperbole. For something that more than 99.8% survive. 
 

OMG the sky is falling. Let’s use that as an excuse to take away basic liberties and freedoms this country was founded on. 
 

Gotta love the fat, scared, and stupid. Yearning to be mommied by Uncle Sam. 

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5 minutes ago, Wess said:

So much hyperbole. For something that more than 99.8% survive. 

With medical care, hard working staff and ventilation and lockdowns. Without that...
With hyperbole you can accentuate the problem.

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1 hour ago, Ease the sheet. said:

considering moderna took a fuck load of public money and biontech are two refugees living in that german socialistic paradise, and communist russians kicked the fuck out of the nazis for quite a few years before d day, I am not sure you are on strong ground.........

I am on firm ground.

Moderna was created and funded by investors capital .  The public money was to fund pre orders for the vaccine and accelerate  the trials for the vaccine. Capitalism will always identify and commercialize new technology and new ideas faster than any central planning socialist model.   The US has a good combination of public funded and privately funded research and then dynamic capital markets and free enterprise that produces results.

Let us not get into politics over the vaccine which should be apolitical

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

So much hyperbole. For something that more than 99.8% survive. 
 

OMG the sky is falling. Let’s use that as an excuse to take away basic liberties and freedoms this country was founded on. 
 

Gotta love the fat, scared, and stupid. Yearning to be mommied by Uncle Sam. 

Riggght.

Let's look at Texas.

Since beginning of Feb this year. 

9000 deaths,  of which 43 had been vaccinated for 2 weeks or longer (keep in mind full effectiveness takes up to 6 weeks).

And the previously highly vulnerable oldies are vaccinated at the 85 per cent plus level

By your 99.8% survivability,  that means  4.5 million unvacinnated Texans caught the rona, in 6 months. 

Out of an adult population of 20 mill. Take away an average of 50 percent adults vaccinated,  so that leaves 10 million possible targets. 

Which would mean texas would have a vaccinated/ exposure rate of 75%+.

Except it doesn't.  And new infections are back up to 7,000 per day,  which is about 100% increases in a week.  So nah,  75% doesn't stack up. 

You failed high school math? 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Wess said:

So much hyperbole. For something that more than 99.8% survive. 
 

OMG the sky is falling. Let’s use that as an excuse to take away basic liberties and freedoms this country was founded on. 
 

Gotta love the fat, scared, and stupid. Yearning to be mommied by Uncle Sam. 

What? Now you have joined the ranks of those who diminish the pandemic .

Nobody's basic freedoms have been removed.

Once again, you quote a made up statistic that you or an anti-vaxxer pulled out of thin air ..

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7 minutes ago, IPLore said:

What? Now you have joined the ranks of those who diminish the pandemic .

Nobody's basic freedoms have been removed.

Once again, you quote a made up statistic that you or an anti-vaxxer pulled out of thin air ..

Hard to count how many lies you can fit into one post but OK counselor this should be good. Let’s que up more lawyerly lies.

* What do you think the IFR rate is?

Feel free to flop it to the survival rate but at least from there I can tell how big a lawnmower you are!!

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24 minutes ago, Wess said:

Hard to count how many lies you can fit into one post but OK counselor this should be good. Let’s que up more lawyerly lies.

* What do you think the IFR rate is?

Feel free to flop it to the survival rate but at least from there I can tell how big a lawnmower you are!!

Why do you deflect from the basic facts, while trying to accuse another of "lying" when he's not?

How many people have died of Covid? How many people in the last week? Yesterday?

How many people have died of the vaccine? How many vaccinated people have died of Covid?

The basic numbers tell the story. It makes you look not just stupid but like you are deliberately trying to get more people killed.

- DSK

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33 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

* What do you think the IFR rate is?

Feel free to flop it to the survival rate but at least from there I can tell how big a lawnmower you are!!

Nope. Do your own research. You quoted a number. Support it or dont throw numbers around.

 

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16 hours ago, Wess said:

There is something fundamentally evil about those who would take away the freedoms of others and force their version of medicine upon and into them.

Did you know a person with active TB who refuses treatment can be forcibly confined? 

How come "medical freedom " morons, such as yourself, seem ok with that? 

People with active TB have the right to go to concerts, night clubs and ride public transportation!!  And certainly without a mask.

F R E E D O M!!

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19 minutes ago, Clove Hitch said:
16 hours ago, Wess said:

There is something fundamentally evil about those who would take away the freedoms of others and force their version of medicine upon and into them.

Did you know a person with active TB who refuses treatment can be forcibly confined? 

How come "medical freedom " morons, such as yourself, seem ok with that? 

People with active TB have the right to go to concerts, night clubs and ride public transportation!!  And certainly without a mask.

F R E E D O M!!

 

Ever been around a 3 year old who does NOT want to take a nap, and defies you to MAKE him take a nap?

- DSK

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14 hours ago, Wess said:

So much hyperbole. For something that more than 99.8% survive. 
 

OMG the sky is falling. Let’s use that as an excuse to take away basic liberties and freedoms this country was founded on. 
 

Gotta love the fat, scared, and stupid. Yearning to be mommied by Uncle Sam. 

Lord this is fun. Forgive my fat fingers. 98.5 or thereabouts. Splitting hairs. 
 

its like the flu.

from China.

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43 minutes ago, Wess said:

Lord this is fun. Forgive my fat fingers. 98.5 or thereabouts. Splitting hairs. 
 

its like the flu.

from China.

Your bait has gone from mildly stupid to off the charts stupid.

You've gone from troll to parody of a troll.

Fun to watch!

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in Sydney

of 43 people in intensive care, one was a teenager, seven were in their 20s, three were in their 30s, 14 were in their 50s, 12 were in their 60s and six were in their 70s.

Only one was half vacinated

and a healthy 30 something woman died today.

This delta is not an "old people's" disease.

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Why would I care hat happens in Sydney? 
 

And yes young people seem scared to death of delta. They are flocking to vaccine centers in record numbers. Your strategy is working!!

:lol:

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9 hours ago, Wess said:

Lord this is fun. Forgive my fat fingers. 98.5 or thereabouts. Splitting hairs. 
 

its like the flu.

from China.

Splitting hairs?   Your revised  new number implies 7.5X the mortality rate of your previous number. 

Without the vaccine, if everybody eventually catches covid due to the highly contagious nature of Delta, your number implies 5 million deaths in the uSA.  If the mortality rate merely among the unvaccinated is as high as 1.5%, that is still north of 2 million deaths

That is some flu!

I dont know what the right mortality rates are but everything I read suggests that:

Covid has a significantly higher mortality rate than seasonal flu.

Covid (Delta Variant) is more infectious than the flu and has been spreading year round.

 

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:
10 hours ago, Wess said:
...     ...

Splitting hairs?   Your revised  new number implies 7.5X the mortality rate of your previous number. 

Without the vaccine, if everybody eventually catches covid due to the highly contagious nature of Delta, your number implies 5 million deaths in the uSA.  If the mortality rate merely among the unvaccinated is as high as 1.5%, that is still north of 2 million deaths

That is some flu!

I dont know what the right mortality rates are but everything I read suggests that:

Covid has a significantly higher mortality rate than seasonal flu.

Covid (Delta Variant) is more infectious than the flu and has been spreading year round.

Yep

Obvious facts -if- one actually has some connection to reality. So, the first step for somebody trying to claim that it's smarter to not get vaccinated, is to provide some alternate reality. Throw around some irrelevant numbers, claim some completely different thing is happening. It's what they see/hear on their "news."

Unfortunately for them (and they're dragging us with them) the SARS-2/CoVid virus has alternate reality covered, too.

- DSK

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Thanks for being a science experiment! Much appreciated!! Hope you continue to do well.

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12 minutes ago, Wess said:

Thanks for being a science experiment! Much appreciated!! Hope you continue to do well.

Those words, "science experiment," do not mean what you seem to think they mean. No surprise, you MAGAettes have poor vocabulary.

It's an "experiment" the first couple of hundred times. After a couple of hundred million, with the same result, it's not an "experiment" any more.

You're welcome

- DSK

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And that’s the cool thing about this country. You can think what you want and make a decision that is right for you and I can think what I want and make a decision that is right for me! 

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

And that’s the cool thing about this country. You can think what you want and make a decision that is right for you and I can think what I want and make a decision that is right for me! 

Sure, except when you choose to do stuff that harms other people. Like drive drunk, or spread potentially deadly lies.

You're getting paid for this, right?

- DSK

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You would be shocked to learn what I am getting paid to do!

But we need to play don’t ask don’t tell on that front.

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13 hours ago, Wess said:

Lord this is fun. Forgive my fat fingers. 98.5 or thereabouts. Splitting hairs. 
 

its like the flu.

from China.

I really wish plonkers like you that focus on some abstract stat of dying from COVID could have seen my pts who survived in the dark days of my hospital from Dec '20 through Jan '21. Try wearing a bipap strapped to your face for a week and you might wish you were dead as it wears away the skin on your nose and cheeks. And after being feeble and bed ridden for weeks enjoy your stay in a rehab facility when you are discharged because now you are too weak to walk more than 10' and can barely wipe your own ass. Oh-- and that kidney damage. They should get better eventually. And all that solu-medrol the docs were giving you to keep you off a vent. Well. . . your blood glucose hasn't been below 200 for a couple weeks even with the insulin we've been giving you. But that doesn't mean you're diabetic now!   . . . Although it might mean that, too.

Also, if you get COVID nobody knows what your "chance" of dying is. Nobody. It is horribly unpredictable. I have seen healthy people die and 82 year olds beat it.

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Anybody wants to try and explain how a virus spreading through an unvaccinated population is not a science experiment? Freerange even?

 

The anti-vaxxers are in this too, whether they like it or not. But instead of being part of the solution they just prolong it for all of us and likely make it worse.

But I'd grant you the freedom to give up your ICU bed for someone who at least tried, which I am sure the Wesses of this world would gladly do and then die a manly death. Because freedom and self sufficiency and so on.

You dumb scrotes claim that "freedom"? Then fucking own it!

 

 

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8 minutes ago, solosailor said:

Isn't the Editor permanently-flicking assholes who spread medical misinformation?

Right?! Even Facebook is banning these murderous fucks

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So many so angry people. 
 

first they chant my body my choice then they get mad when somebody chants same back to them.

LOL. What a bunch of old scared lazy sissy you are

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

And that’s the cool thing about this country. You can think what you want and make a decision that is right for you and I can think what I want and make a decision that is right for me! 

So Wess ... do you have a drivers license?

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

And that’s the cool thing about this country. You can think what you want and make a decision that is right for you and I can think what I want and make a decision that is right for me! 

France and Italy have taken the plunge and started the process towards vaccine passports.

France as a nation has always had the lowest vaccination rates in Europe and for historical reasons has had a thread of vaccine skepticism running through their culture. However a bill for the so-called "Health Pass" has made its way past the French senate and goes to the lower house. The pass will be based on proof of full vaccination and will be required for the French to visit venues such as museums, a cinema , nightclubs bars and restaurants, and to use public transport such as the metro.  Macon was pretty blunt in a very confrontational speech directed at the anti-vaxxers.  He said words to the effect, that those who are vaccinated have earned the right to return to a normal life and should not have that taken away from them by people who choose not to be vaccinated. The vaccinated are entitled to the freedom that they have earned and those that exercise their right to not get vaccinated must abide by the results of that choice and not impose that choice on everyone else.

Italy is introducing a similar "Green pass".

New York is monitoring closely.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

So many so angry people. 
 

first they chant my body my choice then they get mad when somebody chants same back to them.

LOL. What a bunch of old scared lazy sissy you are

Ireland now requires proof of vaccination to get in a pub or restaurant.  Lmao. Get fucked.

Screenshot_20210725-175042_Reddit.jpg

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24 minutes ago, IPLore said:

France and Italy have taken the plunge and started the process towards vaccine passports.

France as a nation has always had the lowest vaccination rates in Europe and for historical reasons has had a thread of vaccine skepticism running through their culture. However a bill for the so-called "Health Pass" has made its way past the French senate and goes to the lower house. The pass will be based on proof of full vaccination and will be required for the French to visit venues such as museums, a cinema , nightclubs bars and restaurants, and to use public transport such as the metro.  Macon was pretty blunt in a very confrontational speech directed at the anti-vaxxers.  He said words to the effect, that those who are vaccinated have earned the right to return to a normal life and should not have that taken away from them by people who choose not to be vaccinated. The vaccinated are entitled to the freedom that they have earned and those that exercise their right to not get vaccinated must abide by the results of that choice and not impose that choice on everyone else.

Italy is introducing a similar "Green pass".

New York is monitoring closely.

 

 

Yup. Unvaxxed morons will soon be 2nd class citizens standing outside of restaurants looking in longingly as we eat and drink. Or they can get used to driving 17 hours to visit Pawpaw while we fly.  

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LOL I have eaten out every night for the past 3. Damn fine food too.

NY? Who would go to that crime ridden cesspool state or city?!

Great place for morons. Hell Cuomo will kill them and thin out the blue herd; perfect!!?

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12 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL I have eaten out every night for the past 3. Damn fine food too.

 

Smart. Get it while you can.  Especially since even a mild case of COVID can kill sense of taste for months. 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

LOL I have eaten out every night for the past 3. Damn fine food too.

NY? Who would go to that crime ridden cesspool state or city?!

Great place for morons. Hell Cuomo will kill them and thin out the blue herd; perfect!!?

Really hope for others that,   your not a spreader.... <_<

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5 hours ago, Clove Hitch said:

Smart. Get it while you can.  Especially since even a mild case of COVID can kill sense of taste for months. 

Really? Wow. Because you know I had covid but thank God I have you to tell me what it was like. Dinner was delicious BTW. The duck… amazing!

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We used to have political divides, now I worry that we have a divide between the unvaccinated and vaccinated.   I sense from the weekend talking to the younger crowd (35 and under) that are vaccinated that they are growing angry and frustrated with those who they see are delaying the end of the pandemic.

I raced this weekend. Sat in dinghies and Sunday crewing on a sport boat.  There were a lot of young people out (good to see) and they are all vaccinated and all keen to see the USA reach a level of vaccination that will prevent Delta delaying their return from wfh .

Anyway, the pace is much too slow but at least every day more people are getting vaccinated.

 

 

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I used to live in GA.  I now live in a state that has reached 69% with at least 1 dose and 62% fully dosed. I feel good about that. I hope we can reach 85+% of adults, then I think we will really have reduced the number of available hosts.

Do we know yet if the vaccine is sterilizing ?  In other words, does the vaccine stop most of us from acting as a host and transmitting the disease, or does it merely stop us getting sick from the virus?  I guess Im asking if asymptomatic vaccinated can still transmit the disease and still provide a host for the virus to replicate or does te vaccine essentially prevent the virus from building up viral load that we then shed?    I remember this being a big discssion early on but I dont know if the research has drawn any conclusions yet.

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Fully vaccinated folk are going to get infected, and we are seeing a lot of this in Israel, the UK, and now the US, but their immune system will fight the virus more quickly. Thus they not only don't get nearly as sick, but their viral load is far lower, hence their ability to transmit to another person is much lower. So, yes, there will be vaccinated folk with asymptomatic infections who might transmit the virus to others, especially if their contact is particularly intimate (think family members or people who now think it is fine to yell in each other's faces, LOL). But again this has little consequence as long as everyone is vaccinated. The unvaccinated are another issue completely, and as a society the UK and US have decided that the unvaccinated are on their own now, which is harsh for those with compromised immune systems or too young to get vaccinated.

There is an interesting difference between Israel and the UK. Large datasets are available for both countries for the Pfizer vaccine, although the subsequent infection measurements are a little different. Israel reports very little protection for fully vaccinated folk against asymptomatic infection by the delta variant (measured by widespread testing), data not available for the UK. The Israeli protection against symptomatic infection is also disappointingly low, and seems to be fading for those who received their vaccination in early 2021. But in the UK, protection against symptomatic infection remains strong (and of course protection against severe illness, hospitalization, and death remains thankfully high in both countries). So what makes the difference for symptomatic infection? The obvious difference is that in Israel they stuck with the 3-week gap between Pfizer shots, while in the UK they spread it out to at least 8 weeks and typically 12 weeks (remember that the 3-week gap was simply expedient for Pfizer, both allowing them to get their vaccine tested more quickly and hence reaping massive profits, as they did not take government money to develop it, $12b and counting). There is some evidence that the latter approach leads to higher immune response. But this observation is also confounded by the fact that hence second jab people in the UK only became fully vaccinated months after Israelis, so perhaps not enough time has passed for their immunity to wane. BUT, this is a warning for the US where the 3-week gap was standard for Pfizer and 4-week for Moderna, hence likely the need for a booster shot pretty soon, at least for older folk like me and other most vulnerable folk. I split the difference and waited 8 weeks for my second Moderna jab, so might have better protection than most in the US.

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6 minutes ago, TheDragon said:

Fully vaccinated folk are going to get infected, and we are seeing a lot of this in Israel, the UK, and now the US, but their immune system will fight the virus more quickly. Thus they not only don't get nearly as sick, but their viral load is far lower, hence their ability to transmit to another person is much lower. So, yes, there will be vaccinated folk with asymptomatic infections who might transmit the virus to others, especially if their contact is particularly intimate (think family members or people who now think it is fine to yell in each other's faces, LOL). But again this has little consequence as long as everyone is vaccinated. The unvaccinated are another issue completely, and as a society the UK and US have decided that the unvaccinated are on their own now, which is harsh for those with compromised immune systems or too young to get vaccinated.

In the US I find it hard to think we will know how many breakthroughs there are unless people are symptomatic. I mean, who fully vaccinated gets tested?  

Yes it is everyone for themselves. Those who cannot get vaccinated will have to mask up really well and lead the cautious lives the vulnerable lived in 2020. 

6 minutes ago, TheDragon said:

There is an interesting difference between Israel and the UK. Large datasets are available for both countries for the Pfizer vaccine, although the subsequent infection measurements are a little different. Israel reports very little protection for fully vaccinated folk against asymptomatic infection by the delta variant (measured by widespread testing), data not available for the UK. The Israeli protection against symptomatic infection is also disappointingly low, and seems to be fading for those who received their vaccination in early 2021. But in the UK, protection against symptomatic infection remains strong (and of course protection against severe illness, hospitalization, and death remains thankfully high in both countries). So what makes the difference for symptomatic infection? The obvious difference is that in Israel they stuck with the 3-week gap between Pfizer shots, while in the UK they spread it out to at least 8 weeks and typically 12 weeks (remember that the 3-week gap was simply expedient for Pfizer, both allowing them to get their vaccine tested more quickly and hence reaping massive profits, as they did not take government money to develop it, $12b and counting). There is some evidence that the latter approach leads to higher immune response. But this observation is also confounded by the fact that hence second jab people in the UK only became fully vaccinated months after Israelis, so perhaps not enough time has passed for their immunity to wane. BUT, this is a warning for the US where the 3-week gap was standard for Pfizer and 4-week for Moderna, hence likely the need for a booster shot pretty soon, at least for older folk like me and other most vulnerable folk. I split the difference and waited 8 weeks for my second Moderna jab, so might have better protection than most in the US.

But the Israeli data does not shed light on infectious capability of the asymptomatic. If we knew that it might be a ho hum who cares.  Like, are you colonized in the nose with MRSA? Nobody knows or cares unless you are having surgery and they give you an ointment to shove up your snout and in your navel the week before. 

Boosters are fine with me.

 

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https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/san-francisco/sf-bars-now-requiring-proof-of-vaccination/2604682/

"SF Bars Now Requiring Proof of Vaccination"

Oh,oh,

Looks like the non-vaccinated just might have to stay at home.

No one wants a potential spreader hanging around.

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Have not been asked anywhere ever and we get out a lot. Easy enough to fake one though. Plenty of folks have. 

I hear you on the age and metabolism Clew - something we agree on.  Only reason I run and work-out 5 days a week is to keep winning the battle of the bulge... while being able to eat and drink whatever I want.

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45 minutes ago, Wess said:

Have not been asked anywhere ever and we get out a lot. Easy enough to fake one though. Plenty of folks have. 

 

That is a pretty slimy attitude

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It’s not nice or slimy. It is what it is. Forever and ever people have and will find a way to do what they want in the face of government’s over reach and restrictions on freedoms.  It’s how this country was founded.

Personally I would prefer to see it done through the court (and the Supreme Court has started to come out against these restrictions re worship) but equally I don’t care if somebody fakes a vaccine card. The courts often fail (see BLM). But even
in my very blue state and down the courts have stopped some covid restrictions. 
 

You guys all pick sides and see black and white. I see grey and favor people doing what is best for them. 

You would not understand or agree but if I was on the jury not a single Jan 6th or BLM protester would be convicted.

 

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17 minutes ago, Wess said:

It’s not nice or slimy. It is what it is. Forever and ever people have and will find a way to do what they want in the face of government’s over reach and restrictions on freedoms.  It’s how this country was founded.

 

This would be faking an ID so that you could put other people's lives at risk.

Lets consider some examples.

1.  My fathers nursing home finally opens up to allow visitors, which has only allowed visits by Zoom until now.    But they (rightly IMHO), will only allow vaccinated visitors.  I would be beyond angry if someone got in with a fake vaccine pass , risking the lives of the residents in a home .   If some of the residents died as a direct result of this, I think it would qualify as negligent homicide/involuntary manslaughter but maybe worse.

2.  Let us contemplate a health facility.  Typically you get a greater number of higher risk patients at a health care facility.  The facility determines that it is in the best interest of patients and staff to require that all staff are vaccinated.  If a staff member lied about his/her vaccination causing at risk patients to catch and subsequently die from covid then that would not be a just exercise of "freedom".

3. A museum has previously opened with masks and safe social distancing.  It waives that requirement for someone with a vaccine pass. The faker gets in under false pretences to avoid the inconvenience of wearing a mask.   Slimy!

 

People who genuinely believe in freedom, respect the freedom of others. You can build your stockade, let them build their stockade and include who they see as safe. Smuggling your self into their stockade is not "freedom", it is pathetic. If you are going to choose to believe that vaccines are  an intrusion on your freedom, then no matter how dumb that belief, you should stand up for it.  A fake vaxx card is the height of hypocrisy .

 

 

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Heck just a few hundred years ago they started shooting and killing those in charge and making rules they didn't like.  And didn't stop until the rule makers left!  Seems we need fewer cards and more guns!

More seriously, I just don't care and accept that it is going to happen.  Have family member in medical facility as I type.  I am sure there are folks violating the rules. You call it or them slimy.  OK whatever boomer.  I call it the realities of life today where rule makers made so many clearly idiotic rules that people just stopped following them.  You reap what you sew.

I accept the reality of it and take precautions where possible and prudent and just get on with life.  But either way I think your side is slimier.

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3 hours ago, TheDragon said:

...There is an interesting difference between Israel and the UK. Large datasets are available for both countries for the Pfizer vaccine, although the subsequent infection measurements are a little different. Israel reports very little protection for fully vaccinated folk against asymptomatic infection by the delta variant (measured by widespread testing), data not available for the UK. The Israeli protection against symptomatic infection is also disappointingly low, and seems to be fading for those who received their vaccination in early 2021. But in the UK, protection against symptomatic infection remains strong (and of course protection against severe illness, hospitalization, and death remains thankfully high in both countries). So what makes the difference for symptomatic infection? The obvious difference is that in Israel they stuck with the 3-week gap between Pfizer shots, while in the UK they spread it out to at least 8 weeks and typically 12 weeks (remember that the 3-week gap was simply expedient for Pfizer, both allowing them to get their vaccine tested more quickly and hence reaping massive profits, as they did not take government money to develop it, $12b and counting). There is some evidence that the latter approach leads to higher immune response. But this observation is also confounded by the fact that hence second jab people in the UK only became fully vaccinated months after Israelis, so perhaps not enough time has passed for their immunity to wane. BUT, this is a warning for the US where the 3-week gap was standard for Pfizer and 4-week for Moderna, hence likely the need for a booster shot pretty soon, at least for older folk like me and other most vulnerable folk. I split the difference and waited 8 weeks for my second Moderna jab, so might have better protection than most in the US.

There is another possible reason for the difference. 

Israel vaccinated exclusively with Pfizer.  In the UK, I believe Pfizer was reserved for the most at risk.  Others got AZ.  A friends brother is an MD in the UK and he and his wife got double AZ although not by choice.

As it turns out the adenovirus vaccines may be better than the mRNA ones in dealing with the variants.

Why?  Studies have shown that while the mRNA vaccines generate a better antibody response - the AZ (and other adenovirus vaccines) elicit a better t-cell response and that t-cells are somewhat less susceptible to loss of immune recognition against viral variants than antibody responses

Anyway, the article is here: https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/373/bmj.n979.full.pdf 

A quote from the article:

"The researchers said that the clinical importance of the difference in T cell response was not yet clear, but it could be important when dealing with variants of covid-19. Paul Moss, co-author, principal investigator of the UK Coronavirus Immunology Consortium, and haematology professor at the University of Birmingham, said, “[T cells] can help to recognise different viral variants, they are somewhat less susceptible to loss of immune recognition against viral variants than antibody responses. “The difference between antibodies and T cells is that antibodies are seeing shapes, like a lock and a key, and therefore a single amino acid can make a big change in the structure, and that means a lot of antibodies can’t bind. Whereas T cells see little peptide fragments, the virus is stripped into fragments and therefore the T cell response is not so badly lost against single amino acid changes.”

My guess is that any future boosters will involve tweaking the mRNa vaccines to deal with Delta or whatever new variant is in the pipeline at the time.  Probably an iterative process until we can finally put it behind us.

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57 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

More seriously, I just don't care and accept that it is going to happen.  Have family member in medical facility as I type.  I am sure there are folks violating the rules. You call it or them slimy.  OK whatever boomer.  I call it the realities of life today where rule makers made so many clearly idiotic rules that people just stopped following them.  You reap what you sew.

I accept the reality of it and take precautions where possible and prudent and just get on with life.  But either way I think your side is slimier.

I dont know what you mean by "side".    So my side is that I believe that , on the whole, the USA is a damn fine place to live.  It is easy to criticize until you consider the alternatives.

WE have always stood up for freedom and democracy , and when push comes to shove, we push back on socialism. Democracy chooses some good leaders from time to time, and gives us some bum ones every now and then......from both parties!  But , on the whole, it is a heck of a sight better than the anarchy of some parts of the world and dictatorships elsewhere.  We dont have a monopoly on good places to live but we are up there and every year people want to come here. 

But.............we also have pulled together in moments of history, put aside our differences and our independent natures and solved problems.

We are also a nation of amazing technology and innovation.  It is simply amazing what has come out of silicon valley and elsewhere.  In the field of health science we have excelled. Hats off to Biontech for their research in mRNA in Germany.  But we also have developed vaccines at Moderna and Pfizer has partnered with Biontech. 

So I think this is one of those times when the people with moral fiber and character do care. They put aside political differences, they call out bullshit and misinformation and they put shoulder to the wheel to address the problem. Every person can play a small part.

I find the apathetic "I dont care" mob.......just to be something I dont want to shake hands with. If you dont want to participate in America.......well please go somewhere else. 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Heck just a few hundred years ago they started shooting and killing those in charge and making rules they didn't like.  And didn't stop until the rule makers left! 

Ya. Nothing says "LIBERTY!" like slave owners that don't want to pay taxes.   And then with the Whiskey Rebellion demonstrated that the new ethos was. . . .. . a lot like the old but just no king. 

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

It’s not nice or slimy. It is what it is. Forever and ever people have and will find a way to do what they want in the face of government’s over reach and restrictions on freedoms.  It’s how this country was founded.

Personally I would prefer to see it done through the court (and the Supreme Court has started to come out against these restrictions re worship) but equally I don’t care if somebody fakes a vaccine card. The courts often fail (see BLM). But even
in my very blue state and down the courts have stopped some covid restrictions. 
 

You guys all pick sides and see black and white. I see grey and favor people doing what is best for them. 

You would not understand or agree but if I was on the jury not a single Jan 6th or BLM protester would be convicted.

 

No worries. I hope that some intoxicated kid with a fake ID doesn't plow into you while you are crossing the street after your excellent restaurant meal. Because it is done all the time we should just condone it.

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28 minutes ago, IPLore said:

 

So I think this is one of those times when the people with moral fiber and character do care. They put aside political differences, they call out bullshit and misinformation and they put shoulder to the wheel to address the problem. Every person can play a small part.

I find the apathetic "I dont care" mob.......just to be something I dont want to shake hands with. If you dont want to participate in America.......well please go somewhere else. 

giphy.gif

This really could have been a time for America to come together and shine like we've done before during the Great Depression and WW2. 

Instead we are now facing a 3rd wave and have to carry selfish fucks like Wess.  Thank fuck this selfish sense of privilege is on the new side or we'd still have Smallpox and Polio due to people like him. 

Oh well.  The vaccinated will return to normal and the Wess' of the country will increasingly become 2nd class citizens. What's hilarious is that anti-vaxx regressive nurses are losing their jobs as hospitals mandate the jab.  Republicans have spent decades making sure that corps can fire people for no reason and etc.  And to see these Regressives' stunned look when that Texas judge upheld the hospital firing anti-vaxxers was a magic moment.   "Sure I voted for leopards eating faces. . . . . but I didn't think they'd eat MY face!"

And it will come down to employers.  While there may be a bunch of anti-vaxx gobshites that want to fill a restaurant and eat-- do you think the owner wants his staff to get nuked by COVID? No fucking way.   Restaurants all over the country are bemoaning a "labor shortage."  

 

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41 minutes ago, IPLore said:

I dont know what you mean by "side".    So my side is that I believe that , on the whole, the USA is a damn fine place to live.  It is easy to criticize until you consider the alternatives.

WE have always stood up for freedom and democracy , and when push comes to shove, we push back on socialism. Democracy chooses some good leaders from time to time, and gives us some bum ones every now and then......from both parties!  But , on the whole, it is a heck of a sight better than the anarchy of some parts of the world and dictatorships elsewhere.  We dont have a monopoly on good places to live but we are up there and every year people want to come here. 

But.............we also have pulled together in moments of history, put aside our differences and our independent natures and solved problems.

We are also a nation of amazing technology and innovation.  It is simply amazing what has come out of silicon valley and elsewhere.  In the field of health science we have excelled. Hats off to Biontech for their research in mRNA in Germany.  But we also have developed vaccines at Moderna and Pfizer has partnered with Biontech. 

So I think this is one of those times when the people with moral fiber and character do care. They put aside political differences, they call out bullshit and misinformation and they put shoulder to the wheel to address the problem. Every person can play a small part.

I find the apathetic "I dont care" mob.......just to be something I dont want to shake hands with. If you dont want to participate in America.......well please go somewhere else. 

I have yet to see you call out any BS and misinformation from the left and have seen you shovel some.

But regardless you live in a different America than me. IMHO the country is not coming together it’s going further and further in opposing directions of red and blue. You think the pandemic brought folks together? Clearly not. 
 

I care greatly about the outcome but accept the division and don’t care or get worked up about it or other life realities. Such as above. I look both ways before crossing the street and am a quite capable (trained actually) defensive driving. But yup a drunk driver could get me. It is what it is. I lose no sleep about it and don’t plan to join MADD or DADD!!

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16 minutes ago, Wess said:

I look both ways before crossing the street and am a quite capable (trained actually) defensive driving. But yup a drunk driver could get me. It is what it is. I lose no sleep about it and don’t plan to join MADD or DADD!!

But Wess, this is a simply great example that you have brought up.

I and many like me are not asking you to join DADD. But we are asking you to recognize that the laws against drunk driving make sense and to abide by those laws.

Sure, it could be argued that it is your right to choose if you want to drive drunk or sober. Its your life and if you end up wrong way up , through the windshield in a creek bed, it was your choice.  BUT and the very big but, is that you endanger others lives if you go around drunk, high and driving. It is someone else's wife, grandfather or daughter who was on the sidewalk before you plunged into the creekbed that we care about.

Republicans dont stand for the freedom to drive drunk. We stand for a free country, with all its flaws.  The scientific data supports the laws on drunk driving. It has been shown that inebriated drivers take poor decisions and are more likely to cause vehicular homicide than a sober driver.

Sure, you can point to lots of examples of friends who got drunk once and made it home without killing anyone.......and friends who caught covid without dying.

You can point to the fact that alcohol affects older people more than young people, and that a younger drunk person might have better reaction times than my grandfather did (before they pulled his license) .

You can point out that sober people die in car accidents and that vaccinated people catch covid.

But the science supports "dont drink and drive"  and "Get vaccinated".

 

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15 minutes ago, IPLore said:

 

But Wess, this is a simply great example that you have brought up.

I and many like me are not asking you to join DADD. But we are asking you to recognize that the laws against drunk driving make sense and to abide by those laws.

Sure, it could be argued that it is your right to choose if you want to drive drunk or sober. Its your life and if you end up wrong way up , through the windshield in a creek bed, it was your choice.  BUT and the very big but, is that you endanger others lives if you go around drunk, high and driving. It is someone else's wife, grandfather or daughter who was on the sidewalk before you plunged into the creekbed that we care about.

Republicans dont stand for the freedom to drive drunk. We stand for a free country, with all its flaws.  The scientific data supports the laws on drunk driving. It has been shown that inebriated drivers take poor decisions and are more likely to cause vehicular homicide than a sober driver.

Sure, you can point to lots of examples of friends who got drunk once and made it home without killing anyone.......and friends who caught covid without dying.

You can point to the fact that alcohol affects older people more than young people, and that a younger drunk person might have better reaction times than my grandfather did (before they pulled his license) .

You can point out that sober people die in car accidents and that vaccinated people catch covid.

But the science supports "dont drink and drive"  and "Get vaccinated".

 

I've asked him twice if he thinks it's okay for the CDC to forcibly confine people with active TB who refuse treatment and he didn't reply.   The cognitive dissonance these "medical freedom morons" have sloshing around their brain bowls would really be something if they weren't mouth-breathers in the first place. 

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Well I ain’t gonna read all that because you failed at the get go boomer. Go Google DADD. I am a member. The daughter even got me the shirt. And about that I care very deeply and do everything I can to convince them I will give them covid or far far worse.  Hopefully I already did give it to a few of them.
 

And I did reply to the last. That you are too stupid to understand it or the absurdity of your question is not my problem. 

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7 hours ago, IPLore said:

I used to live in GA.  I now live in a state that has reached 69% with at least 1 dose and 62% fully dosed. I feel good about that. I hope we can reach 85+% of adults, then I think we will really have reduced the number of available hosts.

Do we know yet if the vaccine is sterilizing ?  In other words, does the vaccine stop most of us from acting as a host and transmitting the disease, or does it merely stop us getting sick from the virus?  I guess Im asking if asymptomatic vaccinated can still transmit the disease and still provide a host for the virus to replicate or does te vaccine essentially prevent the virus from building up viral load that we then shed?    I remember this being a big discssion early on but I dont know if the research has drawn any conclusions yet.

Not much direct research in the USA, and what there has been has been reluctant to announce results.

However, none of the vaccines prevent the virus from getting into your body and therefor your cells, hijacking those cells to reproduce more of itself, and then releasing more virus.

What the vaccines do is to give your immune system a "sneak preview" of the virus, and power up your body's response so that if you get infected with it, your body will fight it immediately and more effectively. This massively reduces the amount of virus you will carry around inside, and makes a big reduction in the amount of virus you exhale. The reduces the odds of your spreading it.

I've seen numbers from a vaccinated person hosting/exhaling only 25% of an unvaccinated person, down to less than 1%. Obviously there will be differences from individual to individual; but it's an important issue. Just the other morning I had a long talk with a state epidemiologist (who is a parent of a kid in our sailing camp) and they said they are using the figure 10%. They added that this is a conservative "safe" number and it is believed to be much much lower (like, less than 1/2%... I have not seen the studies they referenced)

The USA is have some "breakthrough" infections of vaccinated people, and some deaths from this. A damn shame but there's just no guarantee in life.

- DSK

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17 minutes ago, Wess said:

I have yet to see you call out any BS and misinformation from the left and have seen you shovel some.

But regardless you live in a different America than me. IMHO the country is not coming together it’s going further and further in opposing directions of red and blue. You think the pandemic brought folks together? Clearly not. 
 

 

I am a registered Republican but I dont come to SA for PA. I have simply zero interest in becoming one of these online political junkies.  It attracts the crazies.

I do not think that vaccination is a political issue.  

I agree that the country is being pulled apart.  Its a damn shame. The extremes on both parties have become reprehensible what they are doing to our culture of democracy but the core beliefs of right and left wing have absolutely nothing to do with being anti-vaccine. Anti-vaccine is founded on fear and distrust, with the flames fanned by a putrid few who thrive on social media attention.

Tess Lawrie in the UK garners attention on you tube with her poorly researched pseudo science and she loves it.  Except now it turns out her so-called meta study was heavily reliant on a study that was a complete fraud.  

 

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Well then stop thriving on social media attention!?

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7 minutes ago, Wess said:

 Go Google DADD. I am a member. The daughter even got me the shirt.

 

 

36 minutes ago, Wess said:

I lose no sleep about it and don’t plan to join MADD or DADD!!

Erm.....those fat fingers of yours again Wess?

Permission to redirect?

 

Brings back memories of Gantt who was or was not a member of ILCA depending on what side of bed he got out of on the morning.

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