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When offered the Vaccine, will you take it?


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Woah, 9 pages. not reading all that. more to the point.

Will you accept a vaccine over others if you're deemed eligible even if you personally don't think you are high risk? 

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The private sector has embarked on a major campaign to reassure the public that they will not release a vaccine until they are confident it is safe and effective. We can expect a joint statement from

As many of you know I am right of center politically.  I dont think vaccines are a political issue or at least they should not be.  My family are all vaccinated. I tried to think of how I should

You are such a bag of shit wrapped in a thin veneer of pseudo self esteem. You are a walking around killer of strangers free riding on those who got vaccinated. Sponger.

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On 3/17/2021 at 11:24 AM, dorydude said:

You didn't answer the question..what happened to the Spanish Flu virus?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3291398/
 

You seem willing to bet on less lethal mutation for COVID.  (I guess you’re feeling lucky? Punk?). On the other hand, and just as likely, we could be on the foothills of an upward slope of mutagenic lethality.  Like early in 1918.  
 

Mutation is a bitch, and someone who thinks they’re tougher (:lol:) than the virus could incubate a variant that would render us helpless (again) against it.  Especially immune suppressed victims (so the MD nephews are telling us), and since the willfully unmasked proudly prance among us, exercising their apparent God given right to infect others, I fear that is just a matter of time.

But, if you would, dorydude, would you tell us if specific zones were set up where no PPE was expected, no vaccines were necessary, any treatments were allowed, no shutdowns, distancing or public health measures were in effect, and the borders of those areas were closed to anyone wanting out without stringent testing, quarantine, vaccination, and monitoring, would you go to one of those freedom zones?

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5 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Woah, 9 pages. not reading all that. more to the point.

Will you accept a vaccine over others if you're deemed eligible even if you personally don't think you are high risk? 

There was a thing on CNN here with an ethicist. One point he made is, if you don't go make a shot appointment when the system says you are eligible, you don't know that "your" unused vaccine will go to someone more deserving. It may be someone less vulnerable who is in the same eligibility group. Plus, he said, the more people vaccinated the better off everyone is, so just take your shot when it's your turn.

So yes I did accept mine not foregoing in case there was someone my age, my conditions PLUS one more risk factor. 

 

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On 3/17/2021 at 2:24 PM, dorydude said:
On 3/17/2021 at 10:08 AM, Steam Flyer said:

Your concern is touching, but it was fine. All the millions of people it killed? They were going to die anyway.

 

You didn't answer the question..what happened to the Spanish Flu virus?

My answer bolded for the reading-impaired

You're welcome

- DSK

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13 hours ago, Amati said:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3291398/
 

You seem willing to bet on less lethal mutation for COVID.  (I guess you’re feeling lucky? Punk?). On the other hand, and just as likely, we could be on the foothills of an upward slope of mutagenic lethality.  Like early in 1918.  
 

Mutation is a bitch, and someone who thinks they’re tougher (:lol:) than the virus could incubate a variant that would render us helpless (again) against it.  Especially immune suppressed victims (so the MD nephews are telling us), and since the willfully unmasked proudly prance among us, exercising their apparent God given right to infect others, I fear that is just a matter of time.

But, if you would, dorydude, would you tell us if specific zones were set up where no PPE was expected, no vaccines were necessary, any treatments were allowed, no shutdowns, distancing or public health measures were in effect, and the borders of those areas were closed to anyone wanting out without stringent testing, quarantine, vaccination, and monitoring, would you go to one of those freedom zones?

Yes

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Just now, Amati said:

I guess it’s time to get out the barbed wire and construction crews then.  So how do you want to partition Switzerland?  Vote?

On the other hand, you could move to Idaho.  Mountains, Lakes, no motorcycle helmets, pretty high taxes.....

It’s a freedom zone in the making!  Only Democrat ‘fraidieCats wear masks, so we’ll see if they stay or if they go!  

https://www.idahopress.com/news/local/legislature-shuts-down-until-april-6-due-to-covid-19-outbreak/article_01f8ab5c-b040-5bd9-94a7-7ea2276495a8.html

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A guide to freedom areas!  (Like freedom to infect, vs freedom from infection):)

https://www.aarp.org/health/healthy-living/info-2020/states-mask-mandates-coronavirus.html

this also can function as a leading edge indicator (like license plates).  For example, N Dakota plate?  (Depending on your COVID proclivities,)

A) Invite them into your home, local bar, restaurant, boat cabin, spend hours having a good time, indoors! give em a hug, have a big loud laugh close up, etc, don’t worry about mask shaming, or vaccination cards.

B )  Run

etc....  

Might consider moving!  Freedom! :)

 

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42 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Uhh, the point is that you are trying desperately to avoid is that the Spanish Flu vanished on its own accord. No vaccine required.

Just like SARS, MERS, bird flu/ swine flu, Asian flu (1957-58), Hong Kong flu (1968-70).

They don't hang around for long. The rushed vaccine we are being pressured to have will most likely be useless against next seasons flu.

Covid 19 would probably vanish on its own, too, at least in its current forms. The questions are how many would die first, and how disruptive  would it be to world economies and the general way of life if allowed to run unchecked until it burned itself out in its current forms?

Of course the development of a vaccine was rushed, but it was still tested by normal processes, and shown to be effective. Your anti-science and anti-vaccine bias is truly pathetic. 

By the way, polio did not burn itself out. It was largely eliminated by effective vaccines. To believe we have not made progress in vaccine development in the 65 years since that is to ignore scientific progress.

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5 hours ago, accnick said:

The questions are how many would die first, and how disruptive  would it be to world economies and the general way of life if allowed to run unchecked until it burned itself out in its current forms?

Well that's the KEY question.  The most disruption to "world economies" has been caused by Government intervention NOT Covid-19.

I'm surprised that Covid-19 isn't being blamed for Global Warming aka Climate Change!  Afterall it has blown plastic use through the roof and petroleum use.

 

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Well that's the KEY question.  The most disruption to "world economies" has been caused by Government intervention NOT Covid-19.

I'm surprised that Covid-19 isn't being blamed for Global Warming aka Climate Change!  Afterall it has blown plastic use through the roof and petroleum use.

 

The government's appear to be far more dangerous than Covid. 

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On 3/17/2021 at 10:20 PM, TheDragon said:

Responding to Kate is a waste of time and effort. She is a classic troll who lives in New Zealand and doesn't even have a risk of contracting let alone transmitting Covid. Best just to ignore her and get on with your life, preferably vaccinated and happy like me.

She's a he.:rolleyes:

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4 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Well that's the KEY question.  The most disruption to "world economies" has been caused by Government intervention NOT Covid-19.

I'm surprised that Covid-19 isn't being blamed for Global Warming aka Climate Change!  Afterall it has blown plastic use through the roof and petroleum use.

 

You are such an idiot.

You don't think that Covid running amok would cause a bigger disruption to world economies?

Think about it.

Hospitals over run. "normal" patients unable to access timely treatment.

Small business short of staff either taking time off to care for their elderly parents or being ill themselves.

Big business ditto.

and that's just a fraction of the disruption when everyone is getting sick to one degree or another.

Then there's the long recovery period for those that are quite ill.

then there's the disruptions to supply chains when transport workers and others can't do their jobs.

There's the cost of general disruption to employers and employment when people are losing income and discretionary spending is cut.

Our economy is ticking over but even with almost zero cases here, people are not spending on small things like having windows cleaned. thats 3 people in a small business out of work. 3 families tightening up.

If 3% of people die from this, their death affects another 10%? ability to work? impoverishes more families, a family with one wage down can't spend.

It's convenient to think that old people are the most affected but they do generate employment.

the others that die are breadwinners.

 

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10 hours ago, dorydude said:

The rushed vaccine we are being pressured to have will most likely be useless against next seasons flu.

Will there be any thing else Doctor?

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4 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Hospitals are over run all the time. US hospitals are mostly "for profit" so don't carry much excess capacity. In the UK, there are half the number of hospital beds there were 10 years ago.

It doesn't take much to over run those systems.

Covid 19 is virtually harmless to the young and healthy. Locking them up was idiotic.

 

OK, link me to the last time any hospital anywhere in the UK or USA was having to put up tents in car parks.

"Covid 19 is virtually harmless to the young and healthy. Locking them up was idiotic."

I don't even know why I'm bothering to respond to someone that cannot even comprehend that when "infected, young and healthy" Sally or Pete, go to work with Gloria with a pacemaker, or visit aunty Joan that works in a chook factory, or works on a desk in a public face to face position. That this is all hunky dory.

You're an idiot.

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27 minutes ago, dorydude said:

i don't see this in your links

Letter from Spain: Arco exhibition centre is now a coronavirus hospital |  The Art Newspaper

http://prod-upp-image-read.ft.com/f8362cb4-62fb-11ea-abcc-910c5b38d9ed

Bah, you're a moron.

 

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4 hours ago, dorydude said:

Hospitals are over run all the time. US hospitals are mostly "for profit" so don't carry much excess capacity. In the UK, there are half the number of hospital beds there were 10 years ago.

It doesn't take much to over run those systems.

Covid 19 is virtually harmless to the young and healthy. Locking them up was idiotic.

 

You have to be astonishingly stupid to believe these two statements. Hospitals over run "all the time"? When the fuck was the last time?

And Covid-19 is statistically less likely to kill young healthy people (obese, or diabetic, or smokers, another story) but it kills enought o be significant AND it often leaves long term organ damage. Common new syndrome, there are probably around a million USAnians who cannot drink alcohol because they have 'covid liver' and it seems likely that this will be a lifetime condition for them. Heart damage, lung damage, similar.

If you had a jar with 10,000 jellybeans in it, and 3 or 4 of them would kill you, and 8 or 9 of them would leave you with lifelong heart damage, lung damage, etc, how many would you eat?

- DSK

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6 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Last time was 2017 -2018 as in the links I posted.

Seasonal flu does what you describe every year - and has always done - and will continue to do it.

Your jellybean analogy is stupid....

Yeah? Seasonal flu made metro hospitals rent refrigerated truck to store the corpses, and open triage centers in the parking lot?

Your problem is that you're full of shit. I suggest that you stop listening to whomever is pumping you full of it.

My jellybean analogy is very simple statistics, and breaks down the choice of risks easily and clearly. Don't like it? Then you -should- be in favor of avoiding being forced by poor leadership to eat a jellybean from the jar.

- DSK

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On 3/16/2021 at 7:22 PM, Kate short for Bob said:

There is more evidence supporting Covid-19 non reinfection than supporting the vaccines.

The Covid vaccines do indeed help prevent infection of Covid in very high percentages.  In cases they don't, they are proven to lower the risks of serious complications developing.  Long term data doesn't exist because it can't.  yet.

We already know reinfection is happening.  The BMJ has published on it.  But no work is being done on it right now.  Because the numbers aren't high, because they can't be.  Yet.

So both halves of your statement are highly suspect.

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33 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Your problem is that you're full of shit.

^^^ that and my guess is that he's a dude with some real authority issues. "Oppositional disorder."

What he needs is to go perform some volunteer work, and maybe gain some firsthand life experience that can help  temper his doctorate in google bullshit.

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47 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Last time was 2017 -2018 as in the links I posted.

Seasonal flu does what you describe every year - and has always done - and will continue to do it.

No.  Not even CLOSE to comparable on the scales between the two years.  You are being disingenuous.  At best.

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51 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Your problem is that you're full of shit.

^^^ that and my guess is that he's a dude with some real authority issues. "Oppositional disorder."

What he needs is to go perform some volunteer work, and maybe gain some firsthand life experience that can help  temper his doctorate in google bullshit.

Volunteer work in something that you normally would not experience is a great way to broaden horizons /gain understanding. Not for the faint of heart!

You could be right about "oppositional disorder" too, we all have had the experience of sailing with a crew person whose response to any word from the skipper was to argue that the boat -should- do something else.

A guaranteed bad time to be had by all, including them. Why the fuck do they do it?

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Seasonal flu made metro hospitals rent refrigerated truck to store the corpses,

Lockdown policies caused that problem not the number of deaths. 

I recall researching the numbers for El Paso when the news media were going hysterical with pictures of refrigerated containers and unnamed source quotes.

The actual number for a brief period was only 10-15% above normal and well within capacity of the systems that manage deaths.

However all along the chain Government restrictions were impeding the process.  The Coroner had their output significantly reduced, local funeral homes had more than halved their throughput and the bereaved families were holding off having funerals because the restrictions prevented them from attending.  End result a backlog of bodies to process in a system that had managed similar numbers in previous years.

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1 hour ago, Grrr... said:

No.  Not even CLOSE to comparable on the scales between the two years.  You are being disingenuous.  At best.

If you are referring to the NHS in the UK a seasonal flu crisis has occurred every year for the past 11 years at least.  There is an image online that shows a collection of front page newspaper headlines for each of those years.

The problem has got worse because bed numbers relative to population has declined as the population has increased.  Extenuating that has been the aging of the population with the number of people in the vulnerable age group growing at a faster rate than the population overall.

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3 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Equally you can't say that reinfection occurs at a significant level because in nearly 14 months there have been very very few proven cases.  

Kate/Bob is making a lot of sense.

And from a pure theory point of view, if natural reinfection was occurring at a high rate then your confidence in the vaccines should also be lessened because, at the most basic level, all any vaccine does is mimic the infection to induce your body's own immune response... which hopefully lasts for a while.

Because the vaccines do appear to be working in the short and medium term, I think its safe to assume that natural reinfection of people who recovered is likely very low.  (aside from the potential dangers of new strains but the vaccines might not be effective against such new strains ether).

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6 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-people-die-flu/

Covid killed 8x more than the worst recent flu season. But they won't be missed, right? 

From the same article:

According to the CDC, “only counting deaths where influenza was recorded on a death certificate would be a gross underestimation of influenza’s true impact.”

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2 hours ago, Tharsheblows said:

Kate/Bob is making a lot of sense.

...

Kate/Bob is Wofsey, the UnaPoster trailer-park science-y guy

If you think he makes sense, your momma should smack the foolishness out of you

- DSK

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1 hour ago, Kate short for Bob said:

From the same article:

According to the CDC, “only counting deaths where influenza was recorded on a death certificate would be a gross underestimation of influenza’s true impact.”

And that means the EXACT same thing as "influenza killed >500,000 USAnians this year" right?

Dumbass

- DSK

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12 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Covid has killed a whole lot less people than that Asian flu or Hong Kong flu, yet the world wasn't closed down for those ones.

It all depends where you set the benchmark.

It all depends on whether you believe actual medical scientists, or the same bullshitters who said it was going to magically disappear, and could be cured by pool cleaning chemicals.

 

2 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Did you even read the links I posted?

Not really, a brief glance at most.

Of the 3 main flu epidemics in the last ~century, the "Spanish" flu (which should really be called the "Fort Riley Kansas Flu") killed FAR FAR more people in successive waves, further waves striking after people thought it was over, for almost 3 years.

They did not have the medical treatment we have, nor vaccines for any virus at that point, and SARS-2/CoviD-19 has not run it's course.

To say that the flu is deadlier than CoviD-19 is to be either stupid as fuck or to deliberately lie.

Which is it?

- DSK

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1 hour ago, dorydude said:

Uhh , Covid 19 is a coronavirus. It is flu.

Both the Asian flu and Hong Kong flu were more deadly than Covid-19 has been so far.

If you bother to read the links I posted you will see that seasonal flu easily overwhelms hospitals on a regular basis. Tents in carparks, staff working ridiculous hours etc are not unusual.

The difference is that Covid-19 has had a very good PR department on its side.

Please feel free to post when the flu has killed over 540,000 Americans in one year in recent history. Start anytime.

 

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

To say that the flu is deadlier than CoviD-19 is to be either stupid as fuck or to deliberately lie.

The CDC official IFR estimates indicate that for those under the age of 64 Covid-19 is substantially less deadly than Influenza.  It is only in the age groups 75 and above that Covid-19 is significantly more deadly than the flu particularly if you have commodities such as obesity and diabetes. 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

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4 minutes ago, dorydude said:

I guess it depends how you count them.

With the earlier (Asian and Hong Kong) outbreaks, I'm pretty sure they didn't count people who had a positive coronavirus test in the previous 28 days as flu deaths.

You made the claim now back it up. just to be simple stick to the USA. Meanwhile explain how the influenza A and B virus is a coronavirus.  Accuracy is important. Go.

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I got my first Pfizer shot today, the next one will be on April 12.

I expect to be sailing with the club on May 1st and back in my yoga class at the same time.

Dumb bastards who don't vaccines should have to wear a scarlet letter. 

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1 minute ago, dorydude said:

Ok, you've got me there.. you are skating on thin ice when pedantry is your only tactic 

Yes, apparently Covid-19 is a different virus to influenza, although the common cold is a coronavirus.

However Covid-19 and influenza have the same symptoms, same transmission methods and affect our bodies in the same way.

They are so similar you need a test to tell which one you have.

The vast majority of intelligent thought in the world think a fart makes more sense than anything you have posted about Covid-19..

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1 minute ago, dorydude said:

Why?

Vaccinated people can still catch and spread the virus.

Either you don't have much faith in the vaccine or you think that catching the virus from an unvaccinated person will somehow be different to catching it from a vaccinated person.

Bullshit.  That is a known unknown.

I just think those who fall for lunatic beliefs rather than facts ought to warn others of their idiocy.

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4 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Ok, you've got me there.. you are skating on thin ice when pedantry is your only tactic 

Yes, apparently Covid-19 is a different virus to influenza, although the common cold is a coronavirus.

However Covid-19 and influenza have the same symptoms, same transmission methods and affect our bodies in the same way.

They are so similar you need a test to tell which one you have.

Thin ice? You post bullshit, I point it out and that is your reply? Let's just go down that road and state all illnesses are common and some are fatal, m'kay?  The biggest issue in dealing with covid-19 was this was the first that was transmitted asymptotically by those who hadn't developed symptoms and a large number who never had them.  I could go on but then you would have to concentrate and try to learn something rather than post RWNJ shit. 

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You are still so wrong.

Go read about what every country in the world is doing.

Better yet, go find a bar packed with people who don't wear masks.  You'll probably not die. You might just get lucky.  Or you might be the cause of death of another person.  I'm sure they were going to die some day anyway.

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6 minutes ago, dorydude said:

When you sail offshore or go for a walk or trip in wilderness areas you potentially put the lives of Coast Guard/ SAR people at risk if they have to rescue your sorry ass. I bet you would never give it a thought.

Likewise if you use you phone while driving, drive fast or tired or after a couple of drinks , you put other lives at risk.

It's part of life. Do you seriously want the government to be able to dictate the amount of risk we are allowed to take? Because that's what you are advocating 

You are behaving as though the vaccines 100% stop you from catching or passing on the virus.

They don't.

BTW, if they did I would almost certainly get my shot.

Dorydude in many respects you are wasting your time.  The majority of the staunch Government control/NPI/lockdown proponents on here are in the Covid-19 very vulnerable group in terms of age and comorbidities.  They largely appear to be retired and fairly comfortable financially.  Their biggest concern is staying healthy enough to get the boat out again. 

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1 hour ago, dorydude said:

Ok, you've got me there.. you are skating on thin ice when pedantry is your only tactic 

....

"Pedantry" is also known as getting the actual science actually correct

I get the impression that you're not a Russian troll trying to kill Americans but that is the effect of your argumentative nonsense.

 

8 minutes ago, dorydude said:

.....

You are behaving as though the vaccines 100% stop you from catching or passing on the virus.

....

Not at all. They only stop you 100% from dying and 99% from needing to go to the hospital. But it reduces your ability to pass on the virus by ~ 50% and that's enough to drop it below pandemic-level transmissibility.

And the government is NOT limiting your ability to take risks for yourself.

The government is limiting your ability to place others at risk. Like speed limits, red lights, and sanitation laws

- DSK

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3 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Yes, perhaps so.

What pisses me off is they are pretending that getting the vaccine benefits others and therefore socially responsible when it is actually 100% a self-preservation decision.

I can't help think that if Covid-19 had the same age distribution affects as influenza that the whole pandemic management strategy would have been different i.e. if the mortality rate had been more even and skewed towards the very young as opposed to the old.

I don't think it is coincidental that decades of research into developing a pandemic management strategy was thrown out the window and those that made that decision were in the vulnerable age group.

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2 hours ago, dorydude said:

I guess it depends how you count them.

With the earlier (Asian and Hong Kong) outbreaks, I'm pretty sure they didn't count people who had a positive coronavirus test in the previous 28 days as flu deaths.

Were they on ventilators for the 28 days?

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2 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Were they on ventilators for the 28 days?

You are being facetious.  With regard to previous pan/epidemics they didn't have universal PCR testing.  In my opinion too many pandemic management decisions are being made on the basis of case numbers only.  Particularly as over time the ratio of hospitalisations/deaths to cases has declined substantially.  

The economic carnage in the UK is going to be horrendous - the pandemic is costing over a $1 billion a day.  In the USA compare California with Florida.

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26 minutes ago, dorydude said:

You percentages are fictitious.

The vaccine hasn't been around long enough to provide data from the community.

??

At this point, well over 50 million people have been vaccinated

How much fucking data do you want? Are you just a dumbass that loves to argue and can't think of anything better than to say "Your percentages are fictitious" when they're not?

- DSK

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4 minutes ago, dorydude said:
13 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

.. How much fucking data do you want? Are you just a dumbass that loves to argue and can't think of anything better than to say "Your percentages are fictitious" when they're not?

 

You need real data over a reasonable time frame .

Oh yeah, that's far more reasonable than "your percentages are fictitious" after seeing results of >50 million vaccinations.

especially when the vaccine was released 3 months ago... after being tested on ~ 70,000 people (both Moderna and Pfizer) over the previous 6 months

You want perfection and you want it now! And you want it tested over the long term... without having to wait for it!

- DSK

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13 minutes ago, dorydude said:

You need real data over a reasonable time frame .

You need an education - the world's leading scientists have been working on vaccines for the coronavirus family for over a decade.  Try getting some data from reputable sources and I won't feel bad about pointing out your ignorance.

All the vaccines went thru months of trials, approved for emergency use since the data showed little to no negative effects and whatever risk there is is dwarfed by having millions die.

edit: I don't care if you get the vaccine or not, if you chose not to I do care if you put others at risk. So just don't be an asshole and wear a mask when around others.

edit2: Wonder why Trump and Melania got the vaccine in early January? I get why they didn't tell anyone but don't you wonder why?

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5 hours ago, d'ranger said:
5 hours ago, dorydude said:

You need real data over a reasonable time frame .

You need an education -...

Mate good luck with that.

His views today remain the same. His first US mortality number was 2018/2019 flu season of 34k, then went to a bad flu season 80k then went to 100 - 200k worse case. Then dropped out of view.

Now resurfaced with still a bad flu calling 2 Asian epidemics 60 years ago and the Spanish Flu all the flu, with global mortality for the former up to 4m.

You are wasting your time with this arsehole just like KiwiKateShort other than occasional sports fishing for 'troll'.

IMG_20200412_202231.jpg

As for his vaccine, no hurry. Why?

He enjoys BOTH the protective blanket of virus suppression of <0.05% mortality, suppression that he doesn't support, PLUS (in his own words this time last year), ISN'T financially impacted by the economic impact of that virus suppression, in fact benefits I recall.

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Why would you want a vaccine that firstly all makers have been given a pass card to any future problems so they have no liability issues. That in its self should ring alarm bells. Here is your new boat sir no we do not guarantee it will float. And secondly the WHO clearly state that unless you are at risk or very old you should not have it. This is little better than buying stuff of a street dealer that someone on the Internet says is OK. 

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14 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Yes,yes, Sparrow Dick. No one cares about your unhinged rants any more.

You don't seem to want to acknowledge that all your early predictions of doom were all wrong?

Quote one of my  "early predictions of doom" bet you fucking can't. I have never done predictions, I leave that to respected experts to do that and quote them as their opinions NOT mine. You quote whackjobs and construct shit..

17 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Strange that. My predictions were a lot closer to reality than yours.

Absolutely Professor Dory you have been on the money since Day 1. Being up to 20 times out with your US flu comparison a real fucking standout.

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22 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

I guess you are going to quote again that bullshit research by a IT security/bitcoin expert Bevan?

You have me confused with someone else.

This the first time I write this word in my life... now.

Bitcoin.

PS. How are you going nominating that Imperial Study mortality projection for the US which you said was way out that I quoted?

Cat got your tongue?

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12 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Right from the start of this you have been full "Chicken Little", shouting down anyone who didn't advocate draconian total lockdown measures to save the vulnerable.

My suggestion to protect the vulnerable and let the rest of us carry on with our lives was met with scorn 

So you can't quote me. What a surprise.

10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Quote one of my  "early predictions of doom" bet you fucking can't. I have never done predictions, ...

And for the record I have always apposed lockdowns unless they are evidence based. The beginning was no evidence so precautionary and it worked while knowledge was secured.

In fact where were you when I was saying snap lockdowns with no evidence base were bullshit?

You still subscribe to Covid only being a bad flu.

So piss off with your bullshitting claims.

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On 3/16/2021 at 5:56 PM, dorydude said:

How is personal choice selfish?

We all take risks all the time. Some of our risks have consequences that effect others... that's life.

No...that's selfish.  Do you know what selfish actually means?  

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43 minutes ago, dorydude said:

I can't find US figures at the moment, but I guess they will be a little lower as life expectancy is  3 years less than in the UK.

The USA figures are similar but skewed due to the underlying obesity and diabetes pandemic they have.  There is growing evidence based research showing that underlying metabolic issues are the primary cause of serious illness and death from Covid-19.  The cytokine "storm" is part of that picture as is a Vitamin D deficiency.

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2 hours ago, dorydude said:

I can't quote you because I don't have the time to scroll through your thousands of posts....

You say, 'I can't quote you because I don't have the time to scroll through your thousands of posts....*

Yet go to page one on the very thread you started wailing on a year ago just before your post here...

image.png.2518bd4e32b23dc6551b071f1a851f1f.png

...and go to last page same thread you just came back to. 

I'm still there and you will see my position is crystal clear.

There is also a SA advanced search function.

So You can't quote me posting anything resembling my "early predictions of doom".

That is because you Covid Deniers are so desperate for credibility, as your early posts (like your flu one there) look more laughable and more callous every day, so you now revert to trying to make anyone who 'calls you out' as not being credible.

You are now into damage control.

You really are fucking scum.

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31 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

That is because you Covid Deniers are so desperate for credibility, as your early posts (like your flu one there) look more laughable and more callous every day, so you now revert to trying to make anyone who 'calls you out' as not being credible.

Back up there Jacko!  Throwing labels around like "Covid Deniers" only serves to diminish what little credibility YOU have left.  I haven't met or known a "Covid Denier" yet!  Dorydude doens't DENY that Covid exists he just challenges how severe it is in relation to other illnesses that cause mortality in the human race.

As I've said before comparing Covid-19 to Influenza is difficult.  It is accepted that annual deaths due to Influenza are undercounted.  I'm sure if you did the amount of PCR testing for influenza each year AND tested all those that die the figures for influenza would be much much higher especially if you applied the same criteria that is used for establishing a Covid-19 death.

Yes on the balance of probabilities Covid-19 is worse than the average flu but it isn't as bad as the worst flu pandemics.  That isn't denying anything nor putting up a strawman it is just stating FACT!

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:
2 hours ago, dorydude said:

I can't quote you because I don't have the time to scroll through your thousands of posts....

..That is because you Covid Deniers are so desperate for credibility, as your early posts (like your flu one there) look more laughable and more callous every day, so you now revert to trying to make anyone who 'calls you out' as not being credible

30 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Back up there Jacko! ..

 

You and your 'semantics' back up.

You are not Professor Dory.

Your frenzied 4 a minute down-voting says all about you.

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At the risk of extreme stupidity, just how do Dory and Kate suggest a town/county/country should have handled Covid? Just how do you imagine isolating all "vulnerable" folks and letting everyone else go on with life as usual, all getting covid and recovering just fine. Give me an idea of how you are thinking this could be done.

And then help me understand how someone like me at age 65 and retired and reasonably comfortable financially, with hopefully 30 years to live like my parents, with high blood pressure and somewhat overweight by 20 pounds, plus pre-diabetic, but otherwise very active sailing and kitesurfing and traveling the world, should behave in your scenario, assuming I'd like to avoid the 1/80 risk of my dying if I did catch covid?

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4 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

The USA figures are similar but skewed due to the underlying obesity and diabetes pandemic they have.  There is growing evidence based research showing that underlying metabolic issues are the primary cause of serious illness and death from Covid-19.  The cytokine "storm" is part of that picture as is a Vitamin D deficiency.

 

Sure, if the USA wasn't as "capitalistic" and didn't allow food companies and pollution and society to create so much unhappiness and disease - COVID wouldn't have klled near as many. 

The Vit D is unproven BS (we don't know if it is cause or effect, etc.). 

Pointing this out, tho, is like saying "Well, if we didn't live so many years longer than we used to COVID would not be a big deal. True! I've heard crazies start to tell me India is the great example...you know, where 25% of the population poops in the street and the average life span is 70 - largely vegetarian and warm weather helps too. But if the age of death from COVID is 80 (average), well.....you sure aren't going to see as many deaths in a population that never makes it that far!

The same is even true, so a smaller extent, in states and regions of the USA. A place where we have kept more of our elders alive longer - will see more COVID deaths - and the righties will point finger and say "bad bad" - without realizing that it was actually a positive! 

There is a point where what is - is. We are not going to change the eating and other habits of the USA in a year or in a decade. 

I got the vaccine! Loved it. I think mRNA will do amazing things in the future. 
Bottom line - most of us had to be as careful (paranoid, obsessive, etc.) as the most cautious person in our family or bubble. We don't stand alone. So if the vaccine makes it so the whole crew can feel they have done all they can...then we start living again.

We have done that. We are flying, having neighbors over for dinner, playing sports, etc. - I still don't eat inside because I hardly ever did before anyway...I dislike dining out (in general). But I'd say we are 90% back to our normal. 

We can deconstruct COVID in 10,000 ways. One thing we cannot dispute - is that it DID bring to light (if we look) many of our problems and inequities, from the diet and lifestyle you mention to the lack of general caring our society cultivates. Clearly (to me, anyway) the Confucius Way of Life (honoring Elders...and acting as if you behavior matters to your ancestors and the future) is Superior to the ME ME ME that we've put on a pedestal in the West. 

 

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9 minutes ago, TheDragon said:

At the risk of extreme stupidity, just how do Dory and Kate suggest a town/county/country should have handled Covid? Just how do you imagine isolating all "vulnerable" folks and letting everyone else go on with life as usual, all getting covid and recovering just fine. Give me an idea of how you are thinking this could be done.

And then help me understand how someone like me at age 65 and retired and reasonably comfortable financially, with hopefully 30 years to live like my parents, with high blood pressure and somewhat overweight by 20 pounds, plus pre-diabetic, but otherwise very active sailing and kitesurfing and traveling the world, should behave in your scenario, assuming I'd like to avoid the 1/80 risk of my dying if I did catch covid?

Since I am in the mood I'm going to guess at some answers.

Firstly, I am 67 w elevated BP. Maybe 20 lbs over-weight. None of these are true co-morbidities. My odds of dying from COVID are about .4% - 1 in 250. I suspect yours are closer to that also. REAL co-morbidities differ from having a tad of this and that.

OK - so start there. You and my odds of death from life itself are about 1.7% this year. Perspective, right? So while you say "hopefully" 30 years, each of those years is like 1.7%, 1.9%, 2.2% and up and up and up. Each being vastly higher than COVID. 

From a distance, COVID isn't much worse than you gaining a few more pounds and having some major stressors in your life - death of a spouse, a child, etc. (we, like all of you, have these things happening!). 

There is really no answer to the question(s) b/c we always know who won the Super-Bowl the day after. That's what some here are doing - pointing out what we may know now and judging things in light of that instead of in the "Fog of War". Remember, the initial numbers from China and then the USA were something like 5%. If this had turned out to be true, we were crazy for not REALLY locking down the first month (STOP all flights, for starters). 

Let me put it to you this way. If there was not a vaccine coming I would probably volunteer to be infected...if no vaccine was ever available, it might be that "luxury camps" could be set up and we'd pay to SPA and have the best doctors and treatments, etc. there and get our antibodies (or die) and get on with life. That would seem a simple choice - spend 30 years avoiding COVID and not being able to....and the stresses of that? Or doing it when younger (relatively) and having control?

tAny scenarios we lay out always depend on what we are waiting for. You and I make calculations like this:

If we looked and saw mortality coming down X amount (say .1%) every 90 days due to treatments, we might think "OK, we are at .4 or .5% - we'll give it 6 months and hope it is cut in 1'2 and then slowly get back to life.

It would be ignorant to not make such calculations. That would be like going to a big wedding fully inside and opened up when yo already have your vaccine appointment scheduled the next month! 

So that is all I can say. It's a calculation based on the value of Living to us. Every year that goes by, in theory, my COVID odds get worse - so if there was no vaccine ever going to happen the calculation is easy! I'd rather live more "67-72" years than "75-80" years (meaning I'd rather live younger or healthier years)....so I wouldn't wait too long.

We don't have to worry much about these scenarios because Society is doing it for us. Funny - today I walked downtown to buy a pastry and realized I forgot my mask (happened a few times lately)....so I kept on walking, went into the bakery (this is FL, remember) and got my pastry w.o a mask. I kept my distance and it was clear to anyone watching that I was not a "no masker". 

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So everyone like me should find a cabin in the woods and somehow survive for a year or two without contact with others? Good luck selling that approach. I do anticipate seeing my nineties, if not 95 like my parents who were a little less indulgent than me. But I've had high blood pressure since I was 30 and in superb physical shape, and despite less than perfect health I'd wager I can out kitesurf you and Kate anytime you like.

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I'm mostly with you Craigiri. In the early days, like say last August, when our hospital was doing okay, my wife and I thought may we should think about just getting covid and hoping we did okay, knowing we could get decent treatment if need be. But the prospect of both vaccines and improved treatment put those thoughts out of mind and we were just careful through the winter instead. Now fully vaccinated we are living life almost as before, just not easily able to fly to Cape Town for kiting, but hoping to get to the boat in Panama soon. Life is good for us now, may it continue to improve.

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21 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Surely it is up to you to evaluate your risk and take steps to reduce it. 

Strange that you intend to live another 30 years, yet you haven't taken steps to reduce your weight, blood pressure or diabetes risk...all can be done quite easily  with lifestyle changes.

If you are not prepared to put effort in to fixing these,  do you think it's reasonable to destroy the economy and lock down perfectly healthy people so you don't get sick?

--------

 

While you are correct in general - the percentage of "perfectly healthy people" who don't live with or care for or contact the vast amount of "less than perfectly healthy" people is really really low. The woman in one of your memes might live with her mom or grandma who is a diabetic. 

You are casting aside all of the realities - that racism, and luck of birth, pollution, genetics and so much else determines. 

Sorry - you didn't build this. You didn't make yourself healthy. You didn't build those roads. You didn't create the polio vaccine nor open heart surgery. You likely didn't so any of the things that allows you to be able to throw out these generalizations. It's just the ignorance of "ego" allowing you to sit as King of the Hill - which all could come tumbling down tomorrow because a Drunk Driver could decide your car looks good. You could then be in a wheelchair will a colostomy bag and perhaps 1/2 a lung (the other pierced by your ribs in the accident).

I don't expect you to look at life that way (reality) - but, never the less, it is real. It's not a meme. The smartest and most capable genetic doctor I know didn't chose for his child to be born with a fatal genetic disease. 

We didn't choose for one of our children to be born with a 1 in 25,000 spontaneous mutation which subjects them to complete disability and brain and spine surgeries. Shit happens and that's life. The Ideal of our modern Culture is how we take care of the weakest - not in how we value those who "buy the most stuff"

 

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1 hour ago, craigiri said:

Sure, if the USA wasn't as "capitalistic" and didn't allow food companies and pollution and society to create so much unhappiness and disease - COVID wouldn't have klled near as many. 

??? Some third party forces too much bad food down your throat?  You have no say in it?

1 hour ago, craigiri said:

The Vit D is unproven BS (we don't know if it is cause or effect, etc.). 

It is not unproven Bullshit.  Vitamin D has been shown to have a key role in a healthy immune system.  Key research dates well over 50 years and recent research has only reinforced that initial research.  All prior to Covid-19.  I could list tens of thousands of research papers.

But here are a couple you might find interesting assuming of course that you have a reasonably open mind:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3738984/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166406/

There is also lots of research on the link between diabetes, kidney malfunction and autoimmune disease and Vitamin D deficiency.  Note that Covid-19 in serious illness and death cases causes an abnormal immune response with links to metabolic disease.  Again Vitamin D deficiency is a common factor.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4781904/

 

 

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1 hour ago, TheDragon said:

So everyone like me should find a cabin in the woods and somehow survive for a year or two without contact with others? Good luck selling that approach. I do anticipate seeing my nineties, if not 95 like my parents who were a little less indulgent than me. But I've had high blood pressure since I was 30 and in superb physical shape, and despite less than perfect health I'd wager I can out kitesurf you and Kate anytime you like.

I doubt it as I spend quite a bit of my spare time teaching young sailors to sail dinghies and skiffs.  I teach by example.  I don't have much time for self indulgent kite surfing.

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54 minutes ago, dorydude said:

why don't you think you should have to look after yourself?

I have a nephew who is in his early 30s - has a wife two kids a mortgage and was in his second year running his own restaurant.

Due to the lock downs he is now financially destroyed and he is suffering severe mental health issues.

Covid posed no risk to him or his family, and if the low risk under 65 demographic had not been locked down he would still be in business .

Dorydude as I said in an earlier post types like TheDragon are by their own admission retired and well off.  They can be self indulgent as evident by TheDragon's description of his health issues.  Of course there is no relationship between his high blood pressure and his being overweight.  The odds of him catching Covid-19 is low.  The odds of him dying from Covid-19 is low.  Just as it is for your nephew.

The difference is your nephew can't afford the self indulgence, the selfishness and force everyone else to lockdown to save themselves.  They are don't care about him and his family but kid themselves that they are saving your nephew and family from something that they are not at great risk from.

Only the likes of TheDragon can afford those luxuries.  

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Play spot the;

- play the man when cornered,

- unbridled hypocrisy,

- ignorance to the elevated numbers and demography of those who catch and spread it having regard to their financial capacity and movement.

- the mortality age grouping is treated as socially irrelevant,

- ignore the impact of Long Covid even in the young and healthy,

- ignore the smartest health professionals on planet earth,

- wail against Govt suppression mistakes, but ignore the sucessful suppression and economic examples ......

.....and that is just in the west....the third or developing world doesn't exist in their world. 

KoolAid drinking dangerous zealots.

1 hour ago, dorydude said:

I have a nephew who is in his early 30s - has a wife two kids a mortgage and was in his second year running his own restaurant.

Due to the lock downs he is now financially destroyed and he is suffering severe mental health issues.

Covid posed no risk to him or his family, and if the low risk under 65 demographic had not been locked down he would still be in business .

 

45 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Dorydude as I said in an earlier post types like TheDragon are by their own admission retired and well off.  They can be self indulgent as evident by TheDragon's description of his health issues.  Of course there is no relationship between his high blood pressure and his being overweight.  The odds of him catching Covid-19 is low.  The odds of him dying from Covid-19 is low.  Just as it is for your nephew.

The difference is your nephew can't afford the self indulgence, the selfishness and force everyone else to lockdown to save themselves.  They are don't care about him and his family but kid themselves that they are saving your nephew and family from something that they are not at great risk from.

Only the likes of TheDragon can afford those luxuries.  

 

20 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

He enjoys BOTH the protective blanket of virus suppression of <0.05% mortality, suppression that he doesn't support, PLUS (in his own words this time last year), ISN'T financially impacted by the economic impact of that virus suppression, in fact benefits I recall.

IMG_20200412_202231.jpg

 

IMG_20210318_195902.jpg.6272a4ce88f154c60e1a881ade1e258a.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Typical Jacko manipulation of statistics.  Where is your favourite graphs of excess mortality by age group?

Sweden:

image.png.89e64fb7d10947802581111123ea7db2.png

 

39 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

- the mortality age grouping is treated as socially irrelevant,

- ignore the impact of Long Covid even in the young and healthy,

 

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10 minutes ago, dorydude said:

Yep, it's called a "Casedemic". The reality is that the majority of deaths are coming from the last 3 or 4 groups. Young people catch the virus and their immune systems kill it 

You know this . Everyone knows this.

Covid almost exclusively kills the old and weak . We've known this almost from the start. Locking down all of society was a huge overreaction 

 

40 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

- ignorance to the elevated numbers and demography of those who catch and spread it having regard to their financial capacity and movement.

- the mortality age grouping is treated as socially irrelevant,

- ignore the impact of Long Covid even in the young and healthy,

 

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35 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

- the mortality age grouping is treated as socially irrelevant,

No more or less irrelevant than you ignoring the severe impacts on other groups at low risk from Covid.  

You pull the hypocrisy card yet the whole motivation for your "Aussie have blown it again" thread is getting a family member to Australia.  Self-interest at its best. 

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1 minute ago, Kate short for Bob said:

No more or less irrelevant than you ignoring the severe impacts on other groups at low risk from Covid.  

 

41 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

- ignore the impact of Long Covid even in the young and healthy,

- wail against Govt suppression mistakes, but ignore the sucessful suppression and economic examples ....

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

You pull the hypocrisy card...

 

44 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:
21 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

He enjoys BOTH the protective blanket of virus suppression of <0.05% mortality, suppression that he doesn't support, PLUS (in his own words this time last year), ISN'T financially impacted by the economic impact of that virus suppression, in fact benefits I recall.

IMG_20200412_202231.jpg

 

 

9 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

You pull the hypocrisy card yet the whole motivation for your "Aussie have blown it again" thread is getting a family member to Australia.  Self-interest at its best. 

Have no such 'stranded' family member, friend or even associate - ALL your invention. You have been told that multiple times.

48 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

- play the man when cornered,

 

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54 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

No more or less irrelevant

More relevant is you still haven't produced a reply, attempting to unsuccessfully also cover off on these remaining two.

- ignore the smartest health professionals on planet earth,

.....and that is just in the west....the third or developing world doesn't exist in their world.

 

1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Play spot the;

- play the man when cornered,

- unbridled hypocrisy,

- ignorance to the elevated numbers and demography of those who catch and spread it having regard to their financial capacity and movement.

- the mortality age grouping is treated as socially irrelevant,

- ignore the impact of Long Covid even in the young and healthy,

- ignore the smartest health professionals on planet earth,

- wail against Govt suppression mistakes, but ignore the sucessful suppression and economic examples ......

.....and that is just in the west....the third or developing world doesn't exist in their world. 

KoolAid drinking dangerous zealots.

 

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7 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

??? Some third party forces too much bad food down your throat?  You have no say in it?

It is not unproven Bullshit.  Vitamin D has been shown to have a key role in a healthy immune system.  Key research dates well over 50 years and recent research has only reinforced that initial research.  All prior to Covid-19.  I could list tens of thousands of research papers.

But here are a couple you might find interesting assuming of course that you have a reasonably open mind:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3738984/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3166406/

There is also lots of research on the link between diabetes, kidney malfunction and autoimmune disease and Vitamin D deficiency.  Note that Covid-19 in serious illness and death cases causes an abnormal immune response with links to metabolic disease.  Again Vitamin D deficiency is a common factor.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4781904/

 

 

This thread, in nearly every way, is a great example of Mt. Stupid.  You have a bunch of armchair quarterbacks quoting web links in an attempt to argue that what the medical community experts have been telling us is just all wrong.

They are basing their viewpoints on one of two things.  Their incorrectly-held belief that they can read some medical information and suddenly become better than the experts, or their inability to differentiate between an opposing viewpoint and the experts.

It's not a conspiracy.  It's not a scam.  The people who get paid to do this and have studied it all their lives almost universally agree.  The media has certainly had fun scaring people, but that does not invalidate the opinions of the experts, and neither does your ability to google some links.  Period.

https://medium.com/intelligence-challenged/why-your-opinion-isnt-as-valid-as-you-think-it-is-5c32f3fdcad9

The opposing viewpoint to the experts gets play time because the news media always wants to appear unbiased by presenting an opposing viewpoint.  That gives air time to a bunch of people who don't deserve it - racists, white supremacists, anti-vaxxers, climate change deniers, flat earthers, and others.  And it allows people with poor critical thinking skills to hear people well-versed in lying.  Or at least people well-versed in misinterpreting fact.  As a result we get people who spend their lives as librarians arguing against infection disease experts and believing that people should give their opinion some type of actual weight.

It's little different than people who religiously follow talking heads to make their political opinions.  Or people who religiously follow religion (since by definition if your religion is right, than the other religions must be largely wrong).

Fake news indeed.

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8 hours ago, dorydude said:

....

Life is and always has been a series of calculated risks-  be it crossing a road, or walking home drunk. 

It's your life you calculate the risks and decide whether you want to do it or not.

And it's OTHER peoples' lives when you impose risk on them, like driving drunk or ignoring a contagious diease with deadly or life-altering consequences

- DSK

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32 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:


 

Moderna at a big box clinic. 
 

pretty sleepy on day two and some arm pain. Otherwise unremarkable. 

Congrats, Clean. We had few side effects  from Pfizer--similar to yours-- but friends have had significant ones, even days later. On the plus side, they all seem transient.