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Construction of a Pogo 50


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I bet a lot of people here remember the "Construction of a Pogo 12.50" thread by @shaggybaxter a few years back.  Well, the title is probably pretty self explanatory. The build of my Pogo 50 started today.  Happy to post progress picks and talk about the design decisions I made/still need to make if anyone is interested. 

I spent a couple years researching which boat I wanted to get. The design spec is pretty simple-- I want to push as far as possible on the performance end of the performance cruiser spectrum for a 50 foot boat.  Finding the right boat was not simple.  I narrowed down to the following boats before making the choice of the Pogo.  There's a million things that make a boat purchase decision, but the most important metric for me was power to weight ratio.  I wanted a cruising boat that approached the P/W ratio of a TP 52.  Yikes!  The summary is below, but I attached the excel spreadsheet in case anyone else things along these lines.  

 

Boat Upwing Sail:displacement ratio (m2/kg)
Pogo 50                    1.81
Pogo 50- 2M taller mast + running backstays                    1.94
TP52                    2.35
Clubswan 50                    1.86
J/121                    1.73
FC53                    1.78
j/88                    2.11
J/133                    1.43
xP 44                    1.24
xp50(deep)                    1.28
xp55 deep                    1.04
Jeanneau 49 ds (my old boat)

                   0.96

 

 

 

boat_comparison.xlsx

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@apophenia  I've been very happy with the 50 ft Jenneau, in terms of a balance between waterline, availability at harbors, and maintainability, so in my mind that number was a constant.  I agre

So, actually talking about what I've been through already.  There's the research, and talking to a bunch of different owners about their experiences with various builders.  Plus, and this might n

I bet a lot of people here remember the "Construction of a Pogo 12.50" thread by @shaggybaxter a few years back.  Well, the title is probably pretty self explanatory. The build of my Pogo 50 started t

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Did you make a reasonable allowance for the weight of cruising gear? Extra weight is much more noticeable on very light boats. Both numerically in the SA/D and in sailing performance.Like proper anchors and rode (think windage aloft), for one, and the windlass needed to handle it.  Speaking of anchors...I hear a Pogo's rolling at anchor is something to respect. Choose your anchorages carefully.

However, great choice. My points are not deal-killers in any way. Well worth the issues. It will be super fun. Not sure what you can do except be very minimal with the gear.

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I think I speak for a lot of us who will never go through this process when I say please share every part of the process you’ve already been through and have yet to do. Congrats on your new boat. Look forward to seeing it. The 50 is a hell of a boat.

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@apophenia  I've been very happy with the 50 ft Jenneau, in terms of a balance between waterline, availability at harbors, and maintainability, so in my mind that number was a constant. 

35 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Did you make a reasonable allowance for the weight of cruising gear? Extra weight is much more noticeable on very light boats. Both numerically in the SA/D and in sailing performance.Like proper anchors and rode (think windage aloft), for one, and the windlass needed to handle it.  Speaking of anchors...I hear a Pogo's rolling at anchor is something to respect. Choose your anchorages carefully.

However, great choice. My points are not deal-killers in any way. Well worth the issues. It will be super fun. Not sure what you can do except be very minimal with the gear.

I agree. I think of Cruising, like I think of ultralight backpacking. So, the design follows that:  Only 1 head. Electric induction range, rather than a propane system. No genset. Lithium Batteries. There's 3 cabins, but the forward one is pipe berths, and the aft 2 are more comfort oriented.  One of the things I like about the Pogo interior is that there is very minimal trim/headliner, cutting down on weight.  I toyed with no windlass, but decided to keep it, and just go with underpowered.   Interestingly the single head can cause issues while heeling on passage, so it will be oriented fore & aft.  

The only creature comfort that I decided to keep was a very small A/C for just the main salon, with no ducting.  In theory it's small enough to run off an inverter on the batteries, along with a hydrogenerator while on passage.  In practice... I guess I'll see! 

 

23 minutes ago, Alaris said:

I think I speak for a lot of us who will never go through this process when I say please share every part of the process you’ve already been through and have yet to do. Congrats on your new boat. Look forward to seeing it. The 50 is a hell of a boat.

Well, in that case, here's the first photo. This is the molds in place in the workshop earlier today. They've been waxed, and the keel cutout has been boxed in.  It looks like a 50 foot surfboard! 

waxed molds.jpg

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34 minutes ago, Alaris said:

I think I speak for a lot of us who will never go through this process when I say please share every part of the process you’ve already been through and have yet to do. Congrats on your new boat. Look forward to seeing it. The 50 is a hell of a boat.

So, actually talking about what I've been through already. 

There's the research, and talking to a bunch of different owners about their experiences with various builders.  Plus, and this might not be obvious, but the most important thing I did in terms of understanding background was upgrading my Jeanneau 49DS.  It's a tub of a cruising boat, but we got 2nd in section and 9th overall in the Mac last year after 5 steady years of upgrades.  Making all of those upgrades helped me form opinions about how to make a boat go fast, and also how to do it with minimal rating penalties in ORR.  

They put me in touch with another owner, and I flew to Maine to sail on his boat for a day. Then it became less about spreadsheets and more about just loving the boat.

All of this gave me the confidence that I needed to ask them to modify the sail plan.  Their first response was polite, but the essence of it was... uh... you're not exactly a marine architect.  But, they listened.  Once I told them that I think it's possible if we add running backstays (there's no fixed backstay on the Pogo, just swept spreaders), they realized that I was very serious about the performance mod.  So, we were able to get two more meters on the mast, and maintain the same weight aloft by going with a higher modulus carbon, carbon boom,  and carbon spreaders. (for the bargain price of three times what I sold my old Catalina 28 for) 

After the rig, the other design specs are largely aren't as critical-- I'm sticking with their philosophy that the #1 jib is all or nothing on a Karver, but the inner stay can be fractionally furled. I opted for three speed winches, because there's going to be a hell of a lot of line on the spin sheets.  The only two weird things I asked for was in deck LED lights flush on the foredeck pointed up at the inside of the jib so I can see telltales while racing overnight, and a removable bench that can be fitted into the companionway as a place to sit while using autopilot on non-race passages. 

 

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Congratulations on your new build! Are you planning to solely cruise or race as well? If you really want to add power in the light airs you can look at getting a J0 or MH0 for added grunt. Did you go for the lift keel or fixed keel?

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3 hours ago, JL92S said:

Congratulations on your new build! Are you planning to solely cruise or race as well? If you really want to add power in the light airs you can look at getting a J0 or MH0 for added grunt. Did you go for the lift keel or fixed keel?

Mostly offshore racing. I'm sailing it back to the US next summer from France. So, that will be cruising, other than the ARC.  

MH0-- So, I'll be getting Masthead Code 65%,also known as a Large roach headsail(LRH), or a tweener.  This code sail is BIG! 183 m2. 

Most code zeros have a mid girth of greater than 75% of the foot, any less than that and it can't be classified a spinnaker. But a lot of the rating rules in the last couple years are allowing for as low as 55% of mid girth on a code sail.  The penalty goes up exponentially as the mid girth goes down. So, for a 65% sail, the penalty isn't that bad.  I've used one of these for 2 years, and they can point quite high. Not as high as a jib, but there's a special feeling of having a code sail on, and seeing the apparent wind so far forward. 

Here's a video of my current one in action earlier this season. It's pretty amazing how high these things point. (go to 45 seconds to see the code 65): 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, El Boracho said:

Did you make a reasonable allowance for the weight of cruising gear? Extra weight is much more noticeable on very light boats. Both numerically in the SA/D and in sailing performance.Like proper anchors and rode (think windage aloft), for one, and the windlass needed to handle it.  Speaking of anchors...I hear a Pogo's rolling at anchor is something to respect. Choose your anchorages carefully.

However, great choice. My points are not deal-killers in any way. Well worth the issues. It will be super fun. Not sure what you can do except be very minimal with the gear.

IME, that isn't accurate. Extra weight matters on a boat with a narrow waterplane that will "sink" fast which will alter its hull lines. On a wide boat like this, the boat will plane later and be a bit slower upwind but its seaworthiness and its behaviour won't be affected that much as you need a lot of weight to "sink" it. Also you are less likely to store crap on deck which is the surest way to slow down a boat (weight up hgh which is the worst kind of weight + windage).

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56 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

IME, that isn't accurate. Extra weight matters on a boat with a narrow waterplane that will "sink" fast which will alter its hull lines. On a wide boat like this, the boat will plane later and be a bit slower upwind but its seaworthiness and its behaviour won't be affected that much as you need a lot of weight to "sink" it. Also you are less likely to store crap on deck which is the surest way to slow down a boat (weight up hgh which is the worst kind of weight + windage).

Hmmm....then why bother with carbon fibre? ;-)

That might be true considering wetted area alone. Would take some maths. However the displacement of water is independent of hull shape. Every kilo added is another kilo of seawater that must be "pumped from the bow to the stern" to move the hull forward. Or in planing mode each extra kilo must be lifted which directly increases induced drag.

I don't think any naval architect had in mind cargo capacity when considering the advantages of the POGO hull.

The OP seems to have it under control...except for that small air conditioner idea IMHO.

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47 minutes ago, El Boracho said:

Hmmm....then why bother with carbon fibre? ;-)

That might be true considering wetted area alone. Would take some maths. However the displacement of water is independent of hull shape. Every kilo added is another kilo of seawater that must be "pumped from the bow to the stern" to move the hull forward. Or in planing mode each extra kilo must be lifted which directly increases induced drag.

I don't think any naval architect had in mind cargo capacity when considering the advantages of the POGO hull.

The OP seems to have it under control...except for that small air conditioner idea IMHO.

Carbon fibre because every gram makes the boat slower!

My point was just that overloading a wide boat isn't as bad as overloading a narrow boat that will see its floatation line rise quicker.

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19 hours ago, El Boracho said:

Did you make a reasonable allowance for the weight of cruising gear? Extra weight is much more noticeable on very light boats. Both numerically in the SA/D and in sailing performance.Like proper anchors and rode (think windage aloft), for one, and the windlass needed to handle it.  Speaking of anchors...I hear a Pogo's rolling at anchor is something to respect. Choose your anchorages carefully.

However, great choice. My points are not deal-killers in any way. Well worth the issues. It will be super fun. Not sure what you can do except be very minimal with the gear.

I’ve sailed a lot on a pogo 12.5 absolutely loaded down with crap; gear, stores, sails, miles chain, etc, and it was still a rocket ship. Damn thing planed On a white-sail close reach. Bigger denominator on the 50.  Amazing boats. 

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7 hours ago, El Boracho said:

The OP seems to have it under control...except for that small air conditioner idea IMHO.

You're probably right. The AC doesn't match the rest of the design spec.  That said, it will prove valuable in indoctrinating my 5yo daughter that the more spent time on the boat, the better, which shifts the vote at home 2-1 in my favor.   

I might actually remove it for racing season.  

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37 minutes ago, tumbleweed314 said:

You're probably right. The AC doesn't match the rest of the design spec.  That said, it will prove valuable in indoctrinating my 5yo daughter that the more spent time on the boat, the better, which shifts the vote at home 2-1 in my favor.   

I might actually remove it for racing season.  

I doubt it is worth the effort to remove it. On a boat that size a small AC is unlikely to have any meaningful effect on performance. 

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55 minutes ago, tumbleweed314 said:

You're probably right. The AC doesn't match the rest of the design spec.  That said, it will prove valuable in indoctrinating my 5yo daughter that the more spent time on the boat, the better, which shifts the vote at home 2-1 in my favor.   

I might actually remove it for racing season.  

Don’t worry about it - ppl can always knock your business as if their personal choices > yours. You opted to have one marine head. One marine head weighs more than any marine AC system you will end up having for a Pogo 50. 

Don’t let your generous thread become a place where ppl ruin your actual exp. 

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Hi tumbleweed. Thanks for starting this journey. Try and contact Shaggy Baxter, (and if possible other owners), He will be a good resource. I was lucky enough to get around the Pogo factory a few years ago. Great fun.

Make sure you get it commissioned by the manufacturer in France before bringing it back to wherever you will eventually sail. That way you can ensure systems are working, before hand over. We had a bloke try to commission his 12.5 over here, and even with a very experienced team it cost almost as much as the original boat. It was a litany of stuff ups. 
All the best. CK.

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42 minutes ago, Captain Ketamine said:

Make sure you get it commissioned by the manufacturer in France before bringing it back to wherever you will eventually sail. That way you can ensure systems are working, before hand over. We had a bloke try to commission his 12.5 over here, and even with a very experienced team it cost almost as much as the original boat. It was a litany of stuff ups. 
All the best. CK.

For sure. One of the advantages of sailing it back is that the sea trials happen before/at delivery.  

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2 hours ago, McGyver said:

Won't runners be a problem for short-handed cruising?

#1 The original spec didn't have runners, and the mast was 2 meters lower. So, with one reef in, the boat is essentially back to it's original non-reefed spec, and I can leave the runners slack. The boatyard agrees. 

#2 #1 is a moot point. Top of the sail should clear underneath the masthead runners with a reef in, so actually, I can just leave them both set if I have a reef in. 

#3 Pogo specifically stated that they ran the new spec to make sure the runningbacks aren't necessary to keep the mast up, just that they are necessary for performance and longevity of the rig.  The exception case is with the masthead spin downwind in 20+ knots. In that case, "Definitely have the runners on" they said. 

But, yes, shorthanded cruising, in light airs without a reef will be a pain in the ass. 

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1 hour ago, tumbleweed314 said:

But, yes, shorthanded cruising, in light airs without a reef will be a pain in the ass. 

In which case, bung the reef in anyway, set up both backstays and relax.  Won't make much difference to cruising performance, and you can sup your beer while tacking.

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Great thread.  Sounds like it could be a fantastic project.

Thank you for keeping us informed.

Put plenty of thought into the internal layout and sail storage.

You want to be able to lay out the big headys etc flat without walking on them. Also in heavy conditions off the breeze you will want to get everything out of the bow,  you need somewhere to put it.

Galley U shaped and small so you can wedge yourself in. 

You can never have enough pipe berths!!!

Also try and avoid all roof liners, nothing worse than having a leak in a boat with a roof liner.

Can they build it out of epoxy?, quite a bit lighter.

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4 hours ago, P_Wop said:

In which case, bung the reef in anyway, set up both backstays and relax.  Won't make much difference to cruising performance, and you can sup your beer while tacking.

Definitely. I'll finish that beer and relax just after I tweak this one last thing.... 

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Next week, I'm finalizing the specifications for the electrical system.  Here's the relevant facts:

1)The first five hulls had a Volvo 55hp Diesel. That model isn't available anymore, so the choice was a 50hp or 60hp w/ turbocharger. The weight/size for the two engines are almost the same. So, a 60hp diesel is on order already. This decision is made, and can't be changed. 

2)As I mentioned before, there's no genset, but there is an AC. It may be possible to run the engine->charge batteries ->use inverter ->run AC.  

Here's my question: my understanding is that alternators are typically current limited, more than they are wattage limited. Therefore, a 48V battery system can be charged by an alternator about 80% faster than a 24V system, which is about 90% faster than a 12V sytsem. (This is the big "innovation" behind the company Integral)  Given the design spec, that argues that the house batteries are at 48V.  All of the large systems can be run on 48V (solar panels, hydrogenerator, windlass, induction cooking) but the lights & B&G electronics are only specced for 12V or 24V. So, that would require a transformer and a 3rd power bus.   The other advantage of the 48V system is the smaller gauge wiring makes the need for a dedicated battery on the windlass go away. 

So, here's the debate in my mind:

Option 1) Simpler 24V house bank.

Option 2) Faster charging 48V house bank-- essentially using the main diesel as a genset. 

Not an option) 12V House bank. There's no advantage to this system, other than it's most common. Booooo. 

 

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23 minutes ago, tumbleweed314 said:

Here's my question: my understanding is that alternators are typically current limited, more than they are wattage limited.

I would want to see the engineering on that assumption. In general alternators, motors and the like are limited by watts (power) per pound. The total mass of wire and magnetic material does not vary with power. For example for 48 volts vs. 12 Volts the wire will be 4 times smaller but the number of turns (mass) will be 4 times more. The magnetic parts are identical. Ultimately they are smoke limited. 48 V is much more efficient in distribution, and creates a human safety problem.

Cutting edge people like you should try flywheel alternator tech: A propulsion engine alternator that would rival generator output. Or some other PTO solution.

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11 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

.......  Given the design spec, that argues that the house batteries are at 48V.  All of the large systems can be run on 48V (solar panels, hydrogenerator, windlass, induction cooking) but the lights & B&G electronics are only specced for 12V or 24V. So, that would require a transformer and a 3rd power bus.   The other advantage of the 48V system is the smaller gauge wiring makes the need for a dedicated battery on the windlass go away. 

So, here's the debate in my mind:

Option 1) Simpler 24V house bank.

Option 2) Faster charging 48V house bank-- essentially using the main diesel as a genset. 

Not an option) 12V House bank. There's no advantage to this system, other than it's most common. Booooo. 

 

Your 48V plan is good.  There are many industrial automation suppliers that offer a compact and reliable 48V to 24V (or 12V) DC/DC converter.  Just put one in close to the load to drop the voltage to each system that needs 12 or 24, lights, B&G etc...  

An example:

https://www.pulspower.com/us/products/show/product/detail/cd5242/

CD5.242 - DC/DC converter

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Congrats Tumbleweed! 

Am hoping for lots of pics, no pressure good sir :).

I got to do a walk through of a 50 under construction, the thing is fucking cavernous below, you'll be spoilt rotten. 

Anything I can do to help mate lemme know. Bottle washing, baby care...... 

Say G'day to the team, can't ask for a nicer bunch of people. 

 

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I'm skeptical that the 48V chargers will charge much faster than 24V. Also, 48V means your batteries will have twice as many series connections between the cells, which can complicate charge balancing between them and increases the odds that an out of spec cell will be a problem. Make sure you've got a top-shelf BMS for those batteries. I suspect you could get away without a dedicated thruster battery even at 24V and would still have reasonably svelte cabling.

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I'm going to backtrack on advice on marine DC stuff.  This is immensely complex, and has to be treated as a complete system, or preferably a system of systems.  Get it wrong at the outset, and you'll be stuck with an inefficient and possibly fragile electrical system for ever.

My strong suggestion is to contact Nigel Calder, who has been working on marine DC stuff and writing about it for a decade or more in Professional Boatbuilder and elsewhere.  It may cost you now, but I pretty well guarantee you'll be able to sleep at night in the future.

Ask Haji (Bruce Schwab) what he thinks.  He posts here.

 

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13 hours ago, El Boracho said:

12 Volts the wire will be 4 times smaller but the number of turns (mass) will be 4 times more. The magnetic parts are identical. Ultimately they are smoke limited. 48 V is much more efficient in distribution, and creates a human safety problem.

But more turns necessarily reduces mass, because of the geometry of the turns. So generally, it's not a linear tradeoff.  Theory aside, every time I look on an alternator website, the aggregate wattage for higher voltage alternator is always higher than low voltage alternator given a constant frame size.  

For example: https://balmar.net/products/extra-large-case-alternators/. 2x voltage equates to 1.5x current, so a 50% increase in watts. 

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1 hour ago, P_Wop said:

I'm going to backtrack on advice on marine DC stuff.  This is immensely complex, and has to be treated as a complete system, or preferably a system of systems.  Get it wrong at the outset, and you'll be stuck with an inefficient and possibly fragile electrical system for ever.

Yeah. This is true. Ultimately, I know a lot about electrical systems, but not a lot about marine electrical systems. So, at some point, I need to let the boatyard do what they are good at. 

 

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9 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

Yeah. This is true. Ultimately, I know a lot about electrical systems, but not a lot about marine electrical systems. So, at some point, I need to let the boatyard do what they are good at. 

 

Yep. Don’t do one off de novo stuff unless you want to spend a lot of time fixing it or making drama videos. 

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I’m down to the final selection of the sailmaker. I’ve gotten quotes from North and Evolution. I was surprised that the price was similar for both of them. I expected evo to be less.

the designer at eco has made the statement that evo’s top of the line carbon sail compares to North’s 860 line. and that the 760 line isn’t carbon. Also that 860 would be 50% more. North’s website agrees that 860 is carbon and 760 is aramid. 

The designer at North says: not so fast, carbon is more brittle, and for ocean racing, the 760 is the right sail for long term sail shape. In his words “It’s not about price. This is the best sail we know how to make you, given the intended use”. In other words, they don’t  *want* me to buy the more expensive 860 sail. 
 

Sail material aside, North also has 3DI. Lots of anecdotal evidence that the 3DI construction process really does hold shape longer  

Don’t be shy, folks. Which would you choose, given an identical price? and why?

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On 9/16/2020 at 1:14 PM, P_Wop said:

I'm going to backtrack on advice on marine DC stuff.  This is immensely complex, and has to be treated as a complete system, or preferably a system of systems.  Get it wrong at the outset, and you'll be stuck with an inefficient and possibly fragile electrical system for ever.

My strong suggestion is to contact Nigel Calder, who has been working on marine DC stuff and writing about it for a decade or more in Professional Boatbuilder and elsewhere.  It may cost you now, but I pretty well guarantee you'll be able to sleep at night in the future.

Ask Haji (Bruce Schwab) what he thinks.  He posts here.

 

I agree with you 100% on this area. I have gone through two electrical And instrument upgrades on my boat and the latest upgrade is to Lithium batteries. If I was having a new yacht being build I would put a lot o effort into this area including the charging(engine and hydro generator) systems as it is much easier to un all the cables while the boat is being build than later on. The same effort is required or the instruments, Autohelm, radios, radar, inverters for microwave ovens etc.

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8 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

I’m down to the final selection of the sailmaker. I’ve gotten quotes from North and Evolution. I was surprised that the price was similar for both of them. I expected evo to be less.

the designer at eco has made the statement that evo’s top of the line carbon sail compares to North’s 860 line. and that the 760 line isn’t carbon. Also that 860 would be 50% more. North’s website agrees that 860 is carbon and 760 is aramid. 

The designer at North says: not so fast, carbon is more brittle, and for ocean racing, the 760 is the right sail for long term sail shape. In his words “It’s not about price. This is the best sail we know how to make you, given the intended use”. In other words, they don’t  *want* me to buy the more expensive 860 sail. 
 

Sail material aside, North also has 3DI. Lots of anecdotal evidence that the 3DI construction process really does hold shape longer  

Don’t be shy, folks. Which would you choose, given an identical price? and why?

I'd go with the 3Di, here are my reasons;

- The Evolution sails is still a laminate construction so there is always the risk of delamination. 

- 3di is proven to be reliable - it's pretty much the 760 that was used in the last Volvo race and those mainsails are still going...

- Any small repairs will be easier - glueing patches or even tears is possible without the need for sewing. If you have any incidents that result in sail damage you're more likely to be able to fix the 3Di yourself than the Evolution.

- Outer taffeta layers (as on the Evo) rely on a DWR coating to prevent water absorption and mildew growth. If you're going to be in damp/humid environments this will be an issue. 3Di doesn't have this layer so is far less susceptible to the issue.

- The design and shape holding of 3Di is great.

Having said all of the above I would also give some caution for the following;

- North and 3Di sails are not infallible. You are still at the hands (mercy) of actual people to design and finish the sails; fairing final luff/leech/foot curves, adding corners (webbings, rings), luff cars, reef points etc. I have seen brand new 3Di sails fitted onto some very high profile yachts with reef points in completely the wrong place. The issues were fixed extremely quickly but it's still worth remembering that errors can happen and that you shouldn't allow yourself to be steam-rollered into accpeting something that you are not 100% happy with just because they are North. Even if it's just that a leech tape looks wonky, a corner webbing looks scrappy or a chafe patch is in the wrong place (all things that just needed someone to have an off-day in the loft) then pull them up on it.

This project sounds awesome and thanks for sharing it on here, always love following the details of a new build!

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8 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Did you try to get a quote from All Purpose ? I would imagine that they are amongst the most experienced for these kind of boats.

You can found the number of Pogo 50s launched on your hands - All Purpose for 30/36 - North has a far better international presence for his long distance cruising. 

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8 hours ago, Miffy said:

You can found the number of Pogo 50s launched on your hands - All Purpose for 30/36 - North has a far better international presence for his long distance cruising. 

It isn't so much the experience on the Pogo 50 itself, they've been designing and assembling sails for all kind of open style boats for 30 years...

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On 9/14/2020 at 11:01 PM, Miffy said:

take the daydreaming elsewhere. 

heavy weather with just the hint of a white cap .......

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I’m surprised North didn’t suggest 780 which is spectra/carbon rather than the 860 carbon/aramid. We have a 780 endurance 3Di mainsail and 780 Raw mainsail for the SF3600 and both have been great sails. 

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On 10/3/2020 at 3:11 AM, NZK said:

I'd go with the 3Di, here are my reasons;

- The Evolution sails is still a laminate construction so there is always the risk of delamination. 

- 3di is proven to be reliable - it's pretty much the 760 that was used in the last Volvo race and those mainsails are still going...

- Any small repairs will be easier - glueing patches or even tears is possible without the need for sewing. If you have any incidents that result in sail damage you're more likely to be able to fix the 3Di yourself than the Evolution.

- Outer taffeta layers (as on the Evo) rely on a DWR coating to prevent water absorption and mildew growth. If you're going to be in damp/humid environments this will be an issue. 3Di doesn't have this layer so is far less susceptible to the issue.

- The design and shape holding of 3Di is great.

Having said all of the above I would also give some caution for the following;

- North and 3Di sails are not infallible. You are still at the hands (mercy) of actual people to design and finish the sails; fairing final luff/leech/foot curves, adding corners (webbings, rings), luff cars, reef points etc. I have seen brand new 3Di sails fitted onto some very high profile yachts with reef points in completely the wrong place. The issues were fixed extremely quickly but it's still worth remembering that errors can happen and that you shouldn't allow yourself to be steam-rollered into accpeting something that you are not 100% happy with just because they are North. Even if it's just that a leech tape looks wonky, a corner webbing looks scrappy or a chafe patch is in the wrong place (all things that just needed someone to have an off-day in the loft) then pull them up on it.

This project sounds awesome and thanks for sharing it on here, always love following the details of a new build!

I am the "Evo guy" just a few things about our sails if you have not used them before.  We have a membrane plant in Auckland that was built about 6 years ago.  In those 6 years we have had zero sails delaminate, yes zero, our warranty department is very bored most of the time.  The first suit of sails out of the plant are still sailing in Auckland.  Improvements in glue (switching from a heat set to a chemical bond), double vacuum bags, an increase in pressure on the sails and a post curing process have made an extremely tight laminate that just doe not come apart.  And to be honest most of the major sailmakers have sorted the delamination process, its mostly a boogey man that a certain sailmaker keeps bringing up to scare people.

For mildew and repairs neither have been an issue.  The new coatings on our Expedition sails and the tighter weave and lamination have all but eliminated the mildew issue.  No water between layers = no mildew.  No need for glue patches we make PSA skin for the sails that is easy to apply on the water.

For performance a carbon sail will our preform any other material on the market hands down. We went hard down the path of making carbon a solution for all of our sails by making it more flexible.  The key is how the carbon is encapsulated in the sail.  Most sailmakers create a very rigid fiber by fully encapsulating carbon in glue, we developed a technique that lightly coats the carbon to let it bend.  Because of this we run high carbon percentages in all of our sails, 100% in inshore racing sails, and 60-90% in heavy air and offshore sails depending on the use.

If our carbon sails do not look better than a spectra sail after a season I'll eat the damn thing.  Don't buy a Ferrari and put winter tires on it!

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1 hour ago, NZK said:

@Bad Andy I know it isn't my thread but I still appreciate the input - nice to see a Forum sponsor actually getting involved and some interesting information...

 

 

Happy to help, most of the information out there on sails these days is filtered through marketing departments and they haven't a clue.  I go down to NZL once a year (pre covid) to meet with the guys in the loft and the membrane plant.  The guys down there know their shit and are happy to share.  Fire away with any questions if you have more.

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Wish I could get half as much interest from my local Evolution rep(s). Then again I think the whole suit of sails for my boat comes out to the cost of adding an additional reefing point on a main of this calibre. 
 

Looking forward to seeing the build (congratulations btw) and thanks for including us dreamers in the process! 

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17 minutes ago, Will1073 said:

Wish I could get half as much interest from my local Evolution rep(s). Then again I think the whole suit of sails for my boat comes out to the cost of adding an additional reefing point on a main of this calibre. 
 

Looking forward to seeing the build (congratulations btw) and thanks for including us dreamers in the process! 

PM sent, Shark sails matter too!

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I've been under the impression that cost was the only thing speaking against 3Di sails.

If the price is similar, and you guys don't mind my asking, what would the advantages be of the Evolution sails over 3Di?
I'm assuming the Pogo 50 sails would be less than 100% carbon, would that still yield a stiffer sail than the aramid 3Di sails? What about weight of the finished products?

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4 hours ago, Tylo said:

I've been under the impression that cost was the only thing speaking against 3Di sails.

If the price is similar, and you guys don't mind my asking, what would the advantages be of the Evolution sails over 3Di?
I'm assuming the Pogo 50 sails would be less than 100% carbon, would that still yield a stiffer sail than the aramid 3Di sails? What about weight of the finished products?

You will struggle to find any sail that is 100% carbon. Most membrane sails won’t contain a single type of fibre (unless polyester if class rules are in play as per the mini 6.50 for example)  but rather they’ll use a blend of aramids, UHMWPE and/or carbon. Weight usually gets gained when taffeta layers, reefs, full battens etc get added. For a fast cruising boat you probably won’t be needing the last 2% that some technologies can offer in terms of premium product. How well you get on with a set of sails will depend on your relationship with your sailmaker and the knowledge and time they can give you and also how well you look after your sails as even the most robust and advanced sails still need looking after

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10 hours ago, Tylo said:

I've been under the impression that cost was the only thing speaking against 3Di sails.

If the price is similar, and you guys don't mind my asking, what would the advantages be of the Evolution sails over 3Di?
I'm assuming the Pogo 50 sails would be less than 100% carbon, would that still yield a stiffer sail than the aramid 3Di sails? What about weight of the finished products?

Without getting too deep in the weeds I'll give you a few reasons.  The major one is the massive amount of customization we can do within a sail.  I tried to calculate the total number of different products we can build out of the plant in Auckalnd and honestly couldn't do it because of the number of different variations we can do (without even getting to DPI).  We are building every sail custom to the exact use, performance, and life expectancy that the boat needs to accomplish its goal.  For example, a main, AP jib, solent, and Storm jib/staysail for the Pogo 50 will all have slightly different fiber contents (from a 80/20 carbon aramid mix to 100% Vectran), different skins, and mix and matched skins for areas that take more abuse.  

Our lamination process has always been focused on more pressure, less glue, and a more complete curing process.  This has allowed us to make lighter sails that flex better and actually last longer.  We use this weight in two ways, one we can straight up make a lighter sail.  On some of our sails where weight is important (generally inshore buoy sails, light air sails, etc.) we can be as much as 10-15% lighter on the blank weight.  The other way we use it is to load the sail full of fiber and carbon to make it stiffer extremely stiff.  One of our Farr 40 J4's was described as a piece of steel with a pennant on it.

And again we have had zero delamination on our current technology in the last 6 years.  I do not believe that is another sailmaker who can make that claim.  And this really helps us bring the price down.  On pricing we generally find that we are either 20-30% less or providing a vastly superior sail.  In this example the pricing for a spectra cruising sail is being compared to a carbon racing structure with cruising skins. If we went carbon vs carbon its a better sail for a lot less money.

So to sum it up we can make a lighter, stiffer sail that will not fall apart or shrink and do so in a price competitive way.

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6 hours ago, JL92S said:

You will struggle to find any sail that is 100% carbon. Most membrane sails won’t contain a single type of fibre (unless polyester if class rules are in play as per the mini 6.50 for example)  but rather they’ll use a blend of aramids, UHMWPE and/or carbon. Weight usually gets gained when taffeta layers, reefs, full battens etc get added. For a fast cruising boat you probably won’t be needing the last 2% that some technologies can offer in terms of premium product. How well you get on with a set of sails will depend on your relationship with your sailmaker and the knowledge and time they can give you and also how well you look after your sails as even the most robust and advanced sails still need looking after

Correct we generally will do a full carbon sail for higher end inshore racers (for example the sails that won the J111 worlds last year).  These sails get custom carbon scrims, and carbon in the luff, leech and foot passes.  For sails that get more abuse (genoas, heavy air, offshore, etc.) we generally will run in the 60-80% carbon range, and most of the secondary fiber (generally Technora or Twaron) will be run in the foot or horizontal passes as they have the least amount of loads but take the largest abuse when the sail flogs.  For a more cruising oriented sail we will do Spectra or Vectran for the majority of the fibers, but run carbon up the high load areas generally up the leech and a bit in the luff pass.

We are pushing more and more carbon into the race sails every year.  We are keeping a close eye on the 100% carbon sails to see how they age but have not seen a massive difference in degradation of the fabric, but have seen a really nice boast in longevity of shape.  In the next feel years I have a feeling it will become our norm for mainsails and light/medium none overlapping sails for course and coastal racing. 

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Thanks Andy, for chiming in.  In the end it was a tough call. Both North and Evo did an amazing job.  I think there were no bad choices here.  

Fundamentally, it came down to a choice between Evo's Carbon/Aramid sails and North's 3DI Aramid/Carbon mix sails.  The North sails came in at a price point about 7% less than the Evo sails.  So, price was not much of a factor. It came down to the right sail.  And, since everyone's speculating/wondering, I'll go ahead and say it, the suite of sails was just over $100k from three different sailmakers: North, Evo, and Quantum.

 I picked North, but it was a close thing and I struggled a lot with the decision.

Here were the pros on the Evo sails: 

-Highly engaged design. Passionate owner. 

-Primarily carbon sails on the upwind sails. (paired with their claim that their carbon process is more flexible) 

-Lots of experience in these types of boats Volvo/Open 60/etc

 

Here were the pros with the North sails:

-Highly engaged design. Tons of experience. 

-3DI primarily Aramid sails are as high modulus/shape retaining as other brands carbon sails.  But lots of anecdotal and personal evidence that these sails retain shape and strucutre a LONG time. 

-Lots of experience in these types of boats Volvo/Open 60/etc. 

So, I was inclined to go with North because the 3DI process really seems, apples to apples, better than the laminate process.  Problem was, it wasn't apples to apples. It's carbon vs Aramid.  So, I really pushed the issue with North design.  I asked them:  So, what would happen if you put the endurance tapes (their brand people won't let them say "skins") on an 870 Raw or 880 Raw sail.  In other words. I want a full-on carbon 3DI carbon endurance sail.  

Their answer sold me: No, nobody ever asks for this. But we'll humor you.  Yes, it will hold shape better. Yes, it will be lighter. But the carbon fibers are fundamentally more brittle than aramid. So, for a 2-5% increase in performance you're getting a 30-40% decrease in durability. Also, it will cost another 50%. So, we don't want to sell you these sails. They aren't the right ones for your application. 

The fact that they wouldn't take the extra money is an EXTREMELY convincing argument. 

I *do* think that I'll buy from Evo eventually. I think once North's original 3DI patent expires (in the US) in 3 years, the whole market is going to have a level playing field. 

 

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Next question: 

For shorthanded cruising mode and doublehanded racing: Anyone have an opinion on various snuffers for the spins. It seems like the foredeck always manages to get these things tangled around a genoa stay or gets the snuffing line wrapped around something.  Here's the three options that I'm aware of:  

  • ATN vs
  • C-tech "Snuffair" inflatable vs
  • North's factory made? 

We tried furling spins last season. Related: anyone want to buy 3 58' anti torsion cables? 

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3 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

Next question: 

For shorthanded cruising mode and doublehanded racing: Anyone have an opinion on various snuffers for the spins. It seems like the foredeck always manages to get these things tangled around a genoa stay or gets the snuffing line wrapped around something.  Here's the three options that I'm aware of:  

  • ATN vs
  • C-tech "Snuffair" inflatable vs
  • North's factory made? 

We tried furling spins last season. Related: anyone want to buy 3 58' anti torsion cables? 

I’ve used the c-tech snuffair model before and had issues but that could have been down to rigging and setup. We sell Oxley inflatable snuffers with our downwind sails and get good feedback from all our customers on them. We try to push selling snuffers over selling a furling kit unless the owner specifically wants a top down furler mainly because too many customers end up breaking the furling cable core through misuse and the cable manufacturers don’t offer a warranty because of it

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On 9/14/2020 at 7:02 AM, tumbleweed314 said:

#1 The original spec didn't have runners, and the mast was 2 meters lower. So, with one reef in, the boat is essentially back to it's original non-reefed spec, and I can leave the runners slack. The boatyard agrees. 

#2 #1 is a moot point. Top of the sail should clear underneath the masthead runners with a reef in, so actually, I can just leave them both set if I have a reef in. 

#3 Pogo specifically stated that they ran the new spec to make sure the runningbacks aren't necessary to keep the mast up, just that they are necessary for performance and longevity of the rig.  The exception case is with the masthead spin downwind in 20+ knots. In that case, "Definitely have the runners on" they said. 

But, yes, shorthanded cruising, in light airs without a reef will be a pain in the ass. 

Congrats on pulling the trigger!  


Followed Shaggy’s build with keen interest before buying our Pogo 40 we cruise (wife and now 5yo)!

 

You’ll  be fine with the runners. They are a bit of a pain at times but worth the performance gains!  Anyone making this a point completely missed the whole ethos and point of getting a open style boat like the Pogo anyways!

 

Gonna follow this with keen interest- and loved all the in depth discussion above already!

 

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4 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

Latest progress. 

Gelcoat on the side. First layer of fiberglass sheets being laid along the bottom.  Resin coat will go on top of that. Then it's fiberglass for real, foam, and fiberglass sandwich after that. 

Incredibly cool to see the process as it goes and thank you for sharing your new Pogo's journey with us!

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On 9/11/2020 at 3:03 PM, apophenia said:

Congrats on your new boat. I'm looking forward to following it's construction.

Why did you focus on Sail Area : Displacement in the absence of Displacement : Length?

 

Or SA/ WS?

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On 10/8/2020 at 7:57 PM, tumbleweed314 said:

Next question: 

For shorthanded cruising mode and doublehanded racing: Anyone have an opinion on various snuffers for the spins. It seems like the foredeck always manages to get these things tangled around a genoa stay or gets the snuffing line wrapped around something.  Here's the three options that I'm aware of:  

  • ATN vs
  • C-tech "Snuffair" inflatable vs
  • North's factory made? 

We tried furling spins last season. Related: anyone want to buy 3 58' anti torsion cables? 

I like the ATN’s.  At least look at deck snuffers, like the ones the First 18’s are using.  Kind of depends how dry the deck is in rougher stuff.  

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On 9/13/2020 at 12:00 PM, McGyver said:

Won't runners be a problem for short-handed cruising?

Depends on your energy/fear/need 4 speed levels are....you do get used to them, but every once in a while they do what runners always do, and things get sporty....I especially like it when they catch on the leech of a main with a lot of roach during a jibe, short handed, just before the battens pop over....

Contemplating how much a batten will bend before breaking around a swept spreader rig can be pretty amusing too.

But this is light 40’er fun, not 50’er fun.

I have drooled over the Pogo.  Damn!  Lucky guy!

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On 9/12/2020 at 10:47 AM, Panoramix said:

Carbon fibre because every gram makes the boat slower!

My point was just that overloading a wide boat isn't as bad as overloading a narrow boat that will see its floatation line rise quicker.

Loads become more of an issue on wide and light, but a solid knowledge base is one of the advantages of a production boat.  At least it should be.....

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On 9/14/2020 at 5:08 AM, DiasDePlaya said:

Do you want to sail fast? Really? (Anyway the Pogo 50 is a very nice boat)

TS5 going fast

So effortlessly rational under reduced sail.....  I wonder if the Pogo can do that, or do you need to leave sail up-  one of the reasons we went narrow with Amati- but as Panoramix said, we really have to watch the weight.  One of the things that’s nice about COVID- we’re back to day sailing trim! :)

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8 hours ago, Amati said:

Depends on your energy/fear/need 4 speed levels are....you do get used to them, but every once in a while they do what runners always do, and things get sporty....I especially like it when they catch on the leech of a main with a lot of roach during a jibe, short handed, just before the battens pop over....

Contemplating how much a batten will bend before breaking around a swept spreader rig can be pretty amusing too.

But this is light 40’er fun, not 50’er fun.

I have drooled over the Pogo.  Damn!  Lucky guy!

Depends on <what> your energy/fear/need for speed levels are when it comes to runners.  

It’s always fun to hear the design spiral, or the choosing spiral, at least.  Big fun.

Modern boats are engineered as a system so completely, it’s hard to envision any one of them being modified. 
 

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15 hours ago, Amati said:

I like the ATN’s.  At least look at deck snuffers, like the ones the First 18’s are using.  Kind of depends how dry the deck is in rougher stuff.  

What's a deck snuffer. ATN's website doesn't say anything. Are you just saying snuffers that come all the way down to the deck. I would imagine the tack and clew would be stuffed up inside the snuffer, rather than sticking out. 

 

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54 minutes ago, tumbleweed314 said:

What's a deck snuffer. ATN's website doesn't say anything. Are you just saying snuffers that come all the way down to the deck. I would imagine the tack and clew would be stuffed up inside the snuffer, rather than sticking out. 

 

Here’s an example, a sailmaker can make you one.  There used to be a dedicated maker in Northern Europe somewhere-  Cat sailors use them most.....  I’m going to use one for my drifter, maybe next year, but after the wind hits 8-10 we’re putting in the first reef upwind, and even a 3/4 asym can be overkill for cruising at least,  at that point, with the jib on a Hoyt jib boom and we don’t race, so a deck snuffer is going to be used in pretty benign conditions. Anything over 15k downwind I furl the jib anyway, and just go with full main up to 25 or so,  gibing downwind, but we don’t have the kind of stability you do, so it’s a different ballgame. We’ve never had green water over the bow either, so that’s something to consider, but my experience with them on cats is positive.  Seems easier to deal with since it would get rid of a step or two as far as set up and stowing.  

 

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Hi,

I have Seascape/First 18 and yet I wouldn’t recommend this deck sleeve for 50’ boat (that would take lot of space on deck). On 18 it works, but can be tricky at times - key is being able to pull line quick enough in. On 50’ boat closest reference is TP52 systems and understand those require exact timing and good maintenance to work (and lot of line speed and space, both not trivial as I understand). When such system works it is nice, but when not you have serious issues at hand. With 18 I have at times had spinnaker in water and I can imagine how much bigger issue that is on bigger boats in breeze.

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53 minutes ago, mikkom said:

Hi,

I have Seascape/First 18 and yet I wouldn’t recommend this deck sleeve for 50’ boat (that would take lot of space on deck). On 18 it works, but can be tricky at times - key is being able to pull line quick enough in. On 50’ boat closest reference is TP52 systems and understand those require exact timing and good maintenance to work (and lot of line speed and space, both not trivial as I understand). When such system works it is nice, but when not you have serious issues at hand. With 18 I have at times had spinnaker in water and I can imagine how much bigger issue that is on bigger boats in breeze.

Spinnakers are a pain In the ass to handle, in general,  since a snuffer run Vertically from the outs up the mast can wrap around everything, like my wife and the forestay  (As has been mentioned ^^^) , and in a pinch I suppose you could try a letterbox drop, even with the sock lying on the deck, but SH we don’t use our assyms in anything over ~10-12 K, the performance with the Hoyt Jib Boom is so close at that point anyway, and going dead downwind Is way easier, because then you only have to deal with sailing the main by the lee (with runners, of course) : the jib is basically on automatic, tending itself, and gives you plenty of notice when you might jibe.  But like I said, we’re skinny, so the brute force (Like power spinnaker reaching) thing that works on a wider planing hull Isn’t in the cards for us in bigger pressure.  But we are sensitive to making things easier on ourselves when we can,  given that we can’t sail powered up as much as the beamier boats, so a fuck up is a bigger deal, and always lurking a bit closer.  If I can give you an example- we were on a reach going across Haro to Sydney in about 5 knots, main and 3/4  blade, and doing about 5K over the dirt, and I was itching to try out our new 160% drifter, so I put it up, and we went from 5 degree heel To 20 degrees, but our speed went up to 8 knots, which is about hull speed.  So I fell off to make things a bit more comfortable, but the Apparent Wind followed us to the point we were sailing away from the north end of the spit just to get the heel to 10 degrees :lol:.  So we had to snuff the drifter, lower it down through the forward hatch, and by the time we were done doing all that 2 handed, we had to sail upwind to fetch the north end of the island.  Having the deck snuffer would have been a lot easier.  Big light boats have a really different type of speed thing, and things catch up to you really smoothly , and deceptively fast.  So you need systems that work with the performance, as you’re discovering with the 18.  We had a U20 before our 40’cruising sled, and we ran over the spinnaker more than a few times doing a conventional drop through the companionway.  Nothing’s perfect.  (Edit- Actually, White sail planing is perfect!)

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4 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

What's a deck snuffer. ATN's website doesn't say anything. Are you just saying snuffers that come all the way down to the deck. I would imagine the tack and clew would be stuffed up inside the snuffer, rather than sticking out. 

 

The Deckchute is the most commercially available version of this for larger yachts;

https://www.deckchute.com/

It is basically a scaled up version of the retireval socks used on cats and skiffs/dinghies and they're being used by everything up to J class yachts. I've used one on a large multihull in a fully crewed racing situation and once set-up correctly they are very efficient. I've not seen or spoken with anyone who's used them in a cruising/shorthand scenario but they might be worth investigating. I would say that they potentially have a similar achilles to the top-down furlers - line speed on your winches. If you don't have the line speed to get the majority of the kite into the sock quickly then you increase the chances of a cluster-fuck up on the bow. And for the version I used there is a lot more work involved in 're-setting' the kite for another launch compared to a regular snuffer....

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8 hours ago, NZK said:

The Deckchute is the most commercially available version of this for larger yachts;

https://www.deckchute.com/

It is basically a scaled up version of the retireval socks used on cats and skiffs/dinghies and they're being used by everything up to J class yachts. I've used one on a large multihull in a fully crewed racing situation and once set-up correctly they are very efficient. I've not seen or spoken with anyone who's used them in a cruising/shorthand scenario but they might be worth investigating. I would say that they potentially have a similar achilles to the top-down furlers - line speed on your winches. If you don't have the line speed to get the majority of the kite into the sock quickly then you increase the chances of a cluster-fuck up on the bow. And for the version I used there is a lot more work involved in 're-setting' the kite for another launch compared to a regular snuffer....

The first one I ran across was back when the SH open 50’s and 60’s started using them, and a guy who had a Pringle 19 was messing around with the idea, and found a bigger throat worked better, but he started getting paranoid about the aero (and hydro :lol:) drag as a result.  I reused a vertical sock from a bigger to a smaller assym (skinnier higher AR), same hoist, and the difference in ease of use was astonishing.  But I bet the limiting design size for these things comes from internal bow launching tubes, which may have set the size of the throat as limited by bow dimensions?  I remember some bigger dinghies (505? & FD?  And 110’s for that matter) going with tubes located farther back which could be bigger, but IIRR The knock on them was they sucked down water coming over the deck.  Didn’t (don’t?) Dragons mess with launching tubes with a cover?  The deck sock can be looked at as an external fabric tube, no?  We were tossing around the idea of a really large diameter prod that could be used as a tube, but alcohol was involved.....And the conversion turned to where the throat would be :rolleyes:). Didn’t some cats use that idea?

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10 hours ago, NZK said:

The Deckchute is the most commercially available version of this for larger yachts;

https://www.deckchute.com/

It is basically a scaled up version of the retireval socks used on cats and skiffs/dinghies and they're being used by everything up to J class yachts. I've used one on a large multihull in a fully crewed racing situation and once set-up correctly they are very efficient. I've not seen or spoken with anyone who's used them in a cruising/shorthand scenario but they might be worth investigating. I would say that they potentially have a similar achilles to the top-down furlers - line speed on your winches. If you don't have the line speed to get the majority of the kite into the sock quickly then you increase the chances of a cluster-fuck up on the bow. And for the version I used there is a lot more work involved in 're-setting' the kite for another launch compared to a regular snuffer....

I was looking at the videos on the deck chute site, and they were making the point that you can go as slow as you’d like on the takedown- you haven’t found that to be  the case?

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14 hours ago, mikkom said:

Hi,

I have Seascape/First 18 and yet I wouldn’t recommend this deck sleeve for 50’ boat (that would take lot of space on deck). On 18 it works, but can be tricky at times - key is being able to pull line quick enough in. On 50’ boat closest reference is TP52 systems and understand those require exact timing and good maintenance to work (and lot of line speed and space, both not trivial as I understand). When such system works it is nice, but when not you have serious issues at hand. With 18 I have at times had spinnaker in water and I can imagine how much bigger issue that is on bigger boats in breeze.

I was looking at the DeckChute site, and they were making the point that you can go at the speed you want.  What were you finding that made speed paramount- a certain point in the process where things jammed if you couldn’t get past it?  Like wet fabric or something?  And then the chute would drop into the water, to be run over?  Is there a problem paying out the halyard?

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17 hours ago, Amati said:

Seems easier to deal with since it would get rid of a step or two as far as set up and stowing.  

 

I've only seen these on beachcats, like Tornadoes that you linked.  Nobody leaves the sail in the bag for more than 2-3 days (1 regatta).  The sail needs to be dried before storage.

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