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Construction of a Pogo 50


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2 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

Bung some reefs in, roll the big one and open the Solent (or a tiny). And hang the fuck on.

With 16’ beam?  Aircraft carrier!

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@apophenia  I've been very happy with the 50 ft Jenneau, in terms of a balance between waterline, availability at harbors, and maintainability, so in my mind that number was a constant.  I agre

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I bet a lot of people here remember the "Construction of a Pogo 12.50" thread by @shaggybaxter a few years back.  Well, the title is probably pretty self explanatory. The build of my Pogo 50 started t

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1 hour ago, tumbleweed314 said:

I think LWL is just over 49'. The LOA of the "50" in Pogo 50 is 49' 9" without the sprit.

I hadn't realized it until looking at that pic, but it looks like the bow thrusts forward a trivial amount just above the waterline. So, I guess we'll get better water line and additional max boat speed if we just load the bow down until the most forward part of the bow is at the waterline. /s 

 

Upwind, maybe.

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3 minutes ago, Amati said:

With 16’ beam?  Aircraft carrier!

So what else do you do?  Storm sails may reduce heel, but they also reduce your other options as you slow down.  A gnarly dilemma. 

I hope you've had plenty of naps and ramen noodles....

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1 minute ago, P_Wop said:

So what else do you do?  Storm sails may reduce heel, but they also reduce your other options as you slow down.  A gnarly dilemma. 

I hope you've had plenty of naps and ramen noodles....

No more offshore for me. :)

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5 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

Top 2 retrofit ideas here are: 

1)A TP52 style drop line

2)A deck sock.  

I'll probably try both. Decide it's not worth it. Yell in frustration. Then go back to the sock. 

I'd be surprised if a TP style drop-line is truly an option without some serious modifications to the enterior and systems?? (NOTE - I just re-read this before posting and I don't mean for any of the questions to be a challenge/aggressive - I'm just enjoying having a geek out about this and am very intrigued)

1. Typically you need a fully faired forward hatch to prevent the kite from snagging/chafing (this is an issue in classes such as the Club 50 which are attempting to use a standard Lewmar hatch for hoists and drop). Any hatch that uses traditional dogs/latches will be a huge hinderance.

2. You need a 'clean sweep fore and aft'* internally because the drop line typically runs from a long way aft - looking at the interior pics of the Pogo there are doorways, nav desks, galley countertops that would all likely need to fairings/screens to guide the kite past. Even if you modified the system to use a 2 stage fuse line like the deckchute to minimise the length of the retrieval, you'd still need the retrieval line itself to lead through the main salon/nav/galley area. Would you have them add an internal drop wheel with extra drive unit or try and use an existing deck winch with the line led internally through a hatch or deck/cockpit penetration?

3. Line speed - this again, and arguably more important with a drop line based on the mechanics of this type; typically it's blowing the tack, halyard and sheet before a huge effort on the handles by the grinding team to suck the kite into the hatch before it hits the water (using a custom made large diameter reel drum). You'd have to think about how to adapt this maneuver without adding a lot of friction by dragging the kite across a headstay or over guardwires..(and spending more time with you forward hatch open)? If I was going to try this shorthanded I'd want a system that could manage to run a large diameter winch (something like a Harken 990) at full chat just on a button push so you had all hands free for other lines...

The deck chute pretty much takes care of points 1 & 2 by being an independent unit....

 

* I'm re-reading my way through the Master and Commander books for about the 5th time and am very happy to have gotten this phrase into a discussion about a Pogo 50...

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On 10/11/2020 at 8:04 AM, mikkom said:

Hi,

I have Seascape/First 18 and yet I wouldn’t recommend this deck sleeve for 50’ boat (that would take lot of space on deck). On 18 it works, but can be tricky at times - key is being able to pull line quick enough in. On 50’ boat closest reference is TP52 systems and understand those require exact timing and good maintenance to work (and lot of line speed and space, both not trivial as I understand). When such system works it is nice, but when not you have serious issues at hand. With 18 I have at times had spinnaker in water and I can imagine how much bigger issue that is on bigger boats in breeze.

they work on bigger boats to. J Class for example

 

image.png.56ef129a7820364754d5a32db22b95d9.png

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you can put a roller in the hatch, have a take down line from the front end of the boat, through a turning block as far back as you can in the aft cabin, then to the mast, and to a fairlead near the entrance so the pit person can pull this. this way you can easily get the majority of the spinnaker in, and your bow person drops the rest. be prepared to train some crew choreography to do it well. on a single/doublehanded boat, this would not work. 

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9 hours ago, Amati said:

Depends how much wind it takes to plane DDW.  Planing irons out a lot of problems.  AW for one.  But it’s different on a ballasted mono than a multihull, dinghy, or a windsurfer.  Our record is 23 knots, full main only, broad reach, sometimes DDW or by the lee, in gnarly conditions, ~30 knots TW against tide.  It was easy.  Until we turned into the wind to lower the main.  Then it became obvious how violent the conditions were.

I’ve got THAT t-shirt....

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Couple things, went through a rebuild (built new boat around the keel) with friends 59ft. He sourced an alternator that would run on an electric clutch off the 60hp turbo engine. I think Planet Ocean engineering had a hand in it. 360amp alternator and did away with  a genset in the boat, he has A/C, fridge/freezer and 2 vaccumm flush crappers.  He also went with carbon/foam batteries that took an entire floor of 6V out and replaced with two batteries about the size of a small picnic cooler each, like an aircraft battery. reduced battery weight by 50%+ 

He went with ATN snuffer socks on big A chutes, simple, cost effective, hard to F up. The inventory is North 3di and its been very good for 3 seasons now. 

I really love the sound of a marine diesel turbo spinning up. 

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On 10/8/2020 at 7:57 PM, tumbleweed314 said:

Next question: 

For shorthanded cruising mode and doublehanded racing: Anyone have an opinion on various snuffers for the spins. It seems like the foredeck always manages to get these things tangled around a genoa stay or gets the snuffing line wrapped around something.  Here's the three options that I'm aware of:  

  • ATN vs
  • C-tech "Snuffair" inflatable vs
  • North's factory made? 

We tried furling spins last season. Related: anyone want to buy 3 58' anti torsion cables? 

Let me start with congrats on the Pogo. I don't know your background or experience and excuse me for this if it doesn't apply.

I'm curious as to what problems you had furling on the J49DS.  A furling A1.5 and A3/5 seems like it may be ideal for a boat like that, especially shorthanded and how fast that thing will go down wind in some breeze while pushing the AWA forward.  Maybe the Pogo guys can shed some light on hardware and methods that works for other customers. 

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1 hour ago, Mid said:

why, other than lack of practice do folks have problems dropping the kite ?

At first, on the 40er, it was the AW- it’s change is very smooth, in direction and quickness, so it’s sometimes hard to time (esp if you get lost about where you are in a gust cell) - on the U20, for example, it was more of an on/off, depending on sea state, so once you got used to it, you could use that. I’m not jerky on the tiller, I like to let the boat lead me, so maybe that’s it.  But we’re D/L in the mid 90’s, gentle V in front of the keel, flatter in back, and 10.5’ beam, so there’s quite a bit of throw downwind too especially in waves, because she cuts through them so easily, plus when we come off a semi plane, for example, and get into a lower S/L ratio, at that point our prismatic is pretty low, because the boat was designed around light air speed (~.54 ish? I forget exactly), so accelerations, while smooth, are a bit more of an event when we slow down, if that makes sense, and our WS/SA with the main only is 2+ (close to 3 blade and main) so things are kind of spunky on that front too.

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21 hours ago, NZK said:

* I'm re-reading my way through the Master and Commander books for about the 5th time and am very happy to have gotten this phrase into a discussion about a Pogo 50...

Nicely done. I always get depressed in the last two books, knowing it doesn't come to a conclusion.  

On my first ocean crossing, I logged the lat/longs on the inside of the front cover of the first book in the series.  My dog then ate most of the cover.  It just made the thing look gnarly and gross.  Adds a sense of authenticity to the thing.  

 

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14 hours ago, yoyo said:

Let me start with congrats on the Pogo. I don't know your background or experience and excuse me for this if it doesn't apply.

I'm curious as to what problems you had furling on the J49DS.  A furling A1.5 and A3/5 seems like it may be ideal for a boat like that, especially shorthanded and how fast that thing will go down wind in some breeze while pushing the AWA forward.  Maybe the Pogo guys can shed some light on hardware and methods that works for other customers. 

If you do everything just right, they work fine.  Lots of tension on the cable. Correct speed on the furling. Correct tension on the tack.  Get a single thing wrong and the cable kinks. Then the tension unwinds upwards, causing a kink+hourglass.   With an experienced crew, it doesn't happen often.  But, offshore, at night, when the wind picks up, get it wrong, and disaster.  Unwinding one of those kinks can take over an hour on dry land.   

So, generally, it's better. But the failure mode is worse. And failures happen at the most inconvenient times. 

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15 hours ago, JMOD said:

you can put a roller in the hatch, have a take down line from the front end of the boat, through a turning block as far back as you can in the aft cabin, then to the mast, and to a fairlead near the entrance so the pit person can pull this. this way you can easily get the majority of the spinnaker in, and your bow person drops the rest. be prepared to train some crew choreography to do it well. on a single/doublehanded boat, this would not work. 

Why not just put a high line speed winch in the hatch? The hatch/sail locker on the Pogo is enormous. I figured I'd just send somebody into the cave to go grind. 

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1 hour ago, tumbleweed314 said:

Why not just put a high line speed winch in the hatch? The hatch/sail locker on the Pogo is enormous. I figured I'd just send somebody into the cave to go grind. 

That'll only get the kite to the hatch but not down inside won't it? The TPs have a block abaft so by the time the tack of the retrieval line reaches it the spinnaker itself is inside the hatch.

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31 minutes ago, dchs89 said:

That'll only get the kite to the hatch but not down inside won't it? The TPs have a block abaft so by the time the tack of the retrieval line reaches it the spinnaker itself is inside the hatch.

Yep, exactly. The line has to pull from way aft - an easy way to picture it is using the overhead of Svea and their deckchute - the TP drop system is basically an internal version of this without the sock. 

The drop-line (red) has to lead at least as far back as the end of the chute/back of the kite (yellow). Svea's leads further aft than technically necessary to get back to a winch that isn't already being used - they could theoretically have led it directly inboard from the aft end of the chute onto one of the midships winches just forward of the deckhouse but ultimately their racing set-up doesn't allow for this....

Looking at the Pogo pictures I expect you'd put a second snatch block on the aft quarter and run the line back through this and up into the highest speed pit/companionway winch..?

PS. Big points for use of 'abaft'....

 

Whilst we're talking about Svea and winch line-speed...

 

Svea deckchute.png

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On 10/9/2020 at 4:57 AM, tumbleweed314 said:

Next question: 

For shorthanded cruising mode and doublehanded racing: Anyone have an opinion on various snuffers for the spins. It seems like the foredeck always manages to get these things tangled around a genoa stay or gets the snuffing line wrapped around something.  Here's the three options that I'm aware of:  

  • ATN vs
  • C-tech "Snuffair" inflatable vs
  • North's factory made? 

We tried furling spins last season. Related: anyone want to buy 3 58' anti torsion cables? 

I think most people who don't have a racing crew onboard a big boat either use a sock for proper downwind VMG sails or some kind of furler for the reaching sails. Bearing away when you are in VMG mode doesn't cost you that much.

IMHO If you are short-handed you need to accept that transitions are going to be slower. What would be the point of the extra weight of a full crew otherwise ?

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On 10/13/2020 at 6:35 AM, crankcall said:

Couple things, went through a rebuild (built new boat around the keel) with friends 59ft. He sourced an alternator that would run on an electric clutch off the 60hp turbo engine. I think Planet Ocean engineering had a hand in it. 360amp alternator and did away with  a genset in the boat, he has A/C, fridge/freezer and 2 vaccumm flush crappers.  He also went with carbon/foam batteries that took an entire floor of 6V out and replaced with two batteries about the size of a small picnic cooler each, like an aircraft battery. reduced battery weight by 50%+ 

He went with ATN snuffer socks on big A chutes, simple, cost effective, hard to F up. The inventory is North 3di and its been very good for 3 seasons now. 

I really love the sound of a marine diesel turbo spinning up. 

Oh Baby, stop! I gotta catch my breath. 

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On 10/3/2020 at 2:07 AM, tumbleweed314 said:

I’m down to the final selection of the sailmaker. I’ve gotten quotes from North and Evolution. I was surprised that the price was similar for both of them. I expected evo to be less.

the designer at eco has made the statement that evo’s top of the line carbon sail compares to North’s 860 line. and that the 760 line isn’t carbon. Also that 860 would be 50% more. North’s website agrees that 860 is carbon and 760 is aramid. 

The designer at North says: not so fast, carbon is more brittle, and for ocean racing, the 760 is the right sail for long term sail shape. In his words “It’s not about price. This is the best sail we know how to make you, given the intended use”. In other words, they don’t  *want* me to buy the more expensive 860 sail. 
 

Sail material aside, North also has 3DI. Lots of anecdotal evidence that the 3DI construction process really does hold shape longer  

Don’t be shy, folks. Which would you choose, given an identical price? and why?

I would go for one sails 4T Forte personally. Seems superior to heavy 3di which does not have full-length fibres.

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19 hours ago, Nubben said:

I would go for one sails 4T Forte personally. Seems superior to heavy 3di which does not have full-length fibres.

Have you had any experience with them? I haven't been able to find much.   "Seems superior" is exactly right, given their marketing.  The only posts I see about them extending past "I got them six months ago" is that they have splits and gaps in the material after 4-5 years. Hard to justify this big of a spend given the scant amount of anecdotal (or hard) evidence out there.

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Hey tumbleweed314...I saw your boat first.!!! Well not strictly true but we had a sneak preview of the Pogo 44 thanks to Coralie in August just before the factory holiday shut down. As we walked between factory units they were pushing the moulds for your Pogo 50 across the yard so they could start building after the holiday. 

So basically we saw your moulds not your boat!! Massive congratulations, you are going to have an epic boat. I hadn't realised the 50 was so radical but the moulds just screamed huge interior volume and screaming downhill speed. Can't wait to read more of your specification decisions. 

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17 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

Have you had any experience with them? I haven't been able to find much.   "Seems superior" is exactly right, given their marketing.  The only posts I see about them extending past "I got them six months ago" is that they have splits and gaps in the material after 4-5 years. Hard to justify this big of a spend given the scant amount of anecdotal (or hard) evidence out there.

This thread definitely somehow attracted a bunch of theoretical wondering advertisers. 

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47 minutes ago, Amati said:

 Didn’t (don’t?) Dragons mess with launching tubes with a cover?  The deck sock can be looked at as an external fabric tube, no? 

 In FDs it is called the "Spinnaker Trumpet" and it is not covered. In Dragons it is covered with that cool sliding hatch at the bow that is operated by two lines lead aft. We used to do the whole "ACHTUNG VORDECK! OPEN ZE SPINNERHACKER FLAP! PREPARE FOR DOWNWIND ATTACK! " routine a lot. But to be honest: All the never boats with pro crews have reverted to handling the spin from the cockpit.

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2 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

 In FDs it is called the "Spinnaker Trumpet" and it is not covered. In Dragons it is covered with that cool sliding hatch at the bow that is operated by two lines lead aft. We used to do the whole "ACHTUNG VORDECK! OPEN ZE SPINNERHACKER FLAP! PREPARE FOR DOWNWIND ATTACK! " routine a lot. But to be honest: All the never boats with pro crews have reverted to handling the spin from the cockpit.

:lol:
 

Pro teams....
 

If only IC water brakes were legal.....” Apply water brakes! Water brakes applied!   Spinner-hacker flap open my Captain!  Release the Kraken!  Release water brakes when the Kraken is filled!”

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18 hours ago, 10thTonner said:

 In FDs it is called the "Spinnaker Trumpet" and it is not covered. In Dragons it is covered with that cool sliding hatch at the bow that is operated by two lines lead aft. We used to do the whole "ACHTUNG VORDECK! OPEN ZE SPINNERHACKER FLAP! PREPARE FOR DOWNWIND ATTACK! " routine a lot. But to be honest: All the never boats with pro crews have reverted to handling the spin from the cockpit.

The day when the bloke who should be opening the magic door drops a bollock then it's right messy. The boat goes straight through the kite, it comes back down both sides until it gets to the shrouds, then the brakes go on. At that point in the busy part of a 100 boat fleet the fun starts when some clown stops unexpectedly.

They open the magic door last minute on the rough days because they can get a lot of water in quite quickly. The other problem with dropping into the cockpit is you need a proper and quick tidy up. There are a lot of strings and blocks the suck up out of control sail.

Back on topic the 50 looks like a fantastic yacht.

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  • 2 weeks later...
4 hours ago, Miffy said:

Prob some build schedule delays due to impending lockdown?

The new lockdown is not as stringent as the last one, in theory it is designed to keep the economy running.

So may be not that bad.

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Hard to say.  It seems like shipbuilding is an essential business in France, and will continue broadly.  That's the initial indication. Also, 2020. So, who the heck knows, really.  It's fine. The splash date is supposed to be late spring, but as long as I can pick it up before October, I can still make it to the ARC.  Any later, and I'd be nervous about not having enough shakedown and training time before a long passage.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

In fact, here’s the actual materials for the hull, direct from POGO. Make sure to use these if you build one in your garage. 
 

Hull, deck and interior structure :
Hull built by vacuum infusion, female mould, made of high density S.A.N. foam core, multiaxial fibreglass and vinylester resin.
Deck built by vacuum infusion, female mould, SAN&PVC foam core, fibreglass, polyester resin.
Interior structures built by vacuum infusion, female mould, fibreglass/ polyester resin and PVC foam.

 

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

Sorry for the naive question, but can you bring to Chicago a big boat like this by water ?

The volvo 70 il mostro was brought up the erie canal, then up and over to Chicago, so I doubt this pogo will be an issue........just sayin

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6 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

In fact, here’s the actual materials for the hull, direct from POGO. Make sure to use these if you build one in your garage. 
 

Hull, deck and interior structure :
Hull built by vacuum infusion, female mould, made of high density S.A.N. foam core, multiaxial fibreglass and vinylester resin.
Deck built by vacuum infusion, female mould, SAN&PVC foam core, fibreglass, polyester resin.
Interior structures built by vacuum infusion, female mould, fibreglass/ polyester resin and PVC foam.

 

Can someone explain why when building a relatively expensive higher end boat they don't use an epoxy resin?

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On 10/29/2020 at 10:54 AM, tumbleweed314 said:

Foam core installation on top of completed first layer of fiberglass (which is, in turn, on top of the outer layer of gelcoat).  Seeing the measurement precision is good for the soul. The level of craft is sky high.  

 

foamcore.png

So outer skin is hand laid? Or infused ? Or bagged?   Surprised not infused as one unit (outer skin,  core and inner skin)

 

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1 hour ago, Upp3 said:

Tight fit, if you put the boat sideways. Maximum width is 78 feet and length 740. Also Draft is limited to 27 feet and air draft to 116. https://greatlakes-seaway.com/en/the-seaway/facts-figures/;)

Thanks,

Being on the other side of the pond, I never had really realised how important these canals were....

Ours look like this :

49147326623_e49c8f039a_c.jpg

you can transit after dismasting assuming the draft is less than 1.5m (5 feet) if lucky....

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12 hours ago, LeoV said:

Vinylester is good enough stuff for the hull, and the polyester good enough for deck and structures, epoxy overkill, spend the money on the mast.

Good enough if you are happy with a shit job! Can’t understand why they aren’t using epoxy for a boat of this size. If money is so tight that this is the reason, do a pogo 48 and do it properly.

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1 hour ago, Chimp too said:

Good enough if you are happy with a shit job! Can’t understand why they aren’t using epoxy for a boat of this size. If money is so tight that this is the reason, do a pogo 48 and do it properly.

I was surprised to see this. As an example a well respected boat builder turned out a bunch of dinghies 20 years ago. You could opt for the epoxy upgrade.  Initially all the boats looked and performed the same. After 5 years the epoxy one were clearly holding up better. They looked better, held loads better, and were quicker.  Today the epoxy boats are still good cheap entry to the class options, low maintenance. The poly ones are landfill.

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22 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Sorry for the naive question, but can you bring to Chicago a big boat like this by water ?

Yes. 

Inbound to Great Lakes via canals, outbound via st lawerence. I’ve heard current in st lawerence can be 3-4 knots, which makes motoring up it a real beast. 

However, my hope is to spend a lot of time on the Atlantic. Then a couple two-tree years in Chicago and back out again and towards Scandinavian waters.

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Congrats to you - the person that actually laid out serious cash to purchase what you want from a builder with experience and a good reputation.  Unfortunately, as it always seems to happen, you will hear some noise from the sideline spectators along the way. 

Thanks for the updates and photos.  It will be fun to watch the progress and timeline.  Something I think very few of us will get the chance to experience first hand.

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2 hours ago, tumbleweed314 said:

Yes. 

Inbound to Great Lakes via canals, outbound via st lawerence. I’ve heard current in st lawerence can be 3-4 knots, which makes motoring up it a real beast. 

However, my hope is to spend a lot of time on the Atlantic. Then a couple two-tree years in Chicago and back out again and towards Scandinavian waters.

Ta.

Certainly the right boat to cross the Atlantic multiple times!

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10 hours ago, Chimp too said:

Good enough if you are happy with a shit job! Can’t understand why they aren’t using epoxy for a boat of this size. If money is so tight that this is the reason, do a pogo 48 and do it properly.

If you know so much tell us how many world class boats you build per year.

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11 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Thanks,

Being on the other side of the pond, I never had really realised how important these canals were....

Ours look like this :

49147326623_e49c8f039a_c.jpg

you can transit after dismasting assuming the draft is less than 1.5m (5 feet) if lucky....

I'm on the same side off the pond. This is the canal I'm most familiar: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saimaan_kanava

 

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10 hours ago, Autonomous said:

If you know so much tell us how many world class boats you build per year.

The ones I work on these days tend to take 3-5 years to build. Not touched poly or vinylester for over 25 years, even for the cheapest of tooling. I tend to work on builds meant to last more than a couple of years before losing their spring. Just saying.

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On 10/15/2020 at 6:11 PM, tumbleweed314 said:

Have you had any experience with them? I haven't been able to find much.   "Seems superior" is exactly right, given their marketing.  The only posts I see about them extending past "I got them six months ago" is that they have splits and gaps in the material after 4-5 years. Hard to justify this big of a spend given the scant amount of anecdotal (or hard) evidence out there.

The one sail that lasted the longest with good shape control that we had made when we had Amati built was the main, Lidgard, Spectra (ancient tech now I know ^_^) and it was based on a ~ 40’ NZ IMS (?) racing design, and built like Open 50/60 sails that had turned out to have longevity for multiple long races. Looked like crap color wise after a while, but shape was pretty good for 7-8 years.  Not a racing sail, really, but we don’t race. IIRR, taffeta over the spectra? One tear in a reefing grommet in a 40 k gust, and that was my bad. Repaired well, went on for years.  So you might check out Open class sail tech/experience these days, since your Pogo is in that neck of the woods.  Call up Finot (they designed your boat, so they might at least have a vested interest, you’d think, or maybe they’re just stoked another Pogo 50 is being built) , find out who they like, maybe some of the Open boat teams/skippers, and pester the specific Vendee/Open sailmakers and sail designers.  I’d also pester the mast designers/builders, find out what they like. (That can get weird) With any luck they may give you some of the pros and cons.  Are you going for an electric winch for the main halyard?  Our main was not exactly lightweight :lol:, but it worked well in light air, and if I got a good run at it holding on to the boom, I could get the battens to flip in 1-2 knots TW SH. Looking for some new sails now, and with so many trade offs as far as material, it’s a bit intimidating.  But I get the feeling it’s supposed to be that way.

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7 hours ago, Chimp too said:

The ones I work on these days tend to take 3-5 years to build. Not touched poly or vinylester for over 25 years, even for the cheapest of

tooling. I tend to work on builds meant to last more than a couple of years before losing their spring. Just saying.

I'm not super familiar with the differences between them --which is probably obvious from my initial post, since I conflated epoxy to mean all resins-- Doing some research over the last couple days, most of the non-manufacturer-biased whitepapers suggests that:

1)epoxy does a better job resisting water intrusion/replacement of internal molecular bonds than vinylester, which is far superior to polyester

2) vinylester bonds better with foam, and epoxy with wood.  This boat is foam core.

The builder thinks this is the best material for the job.  It's not about the price. Honestly, the difference in price is a rounding error , and there are other places to cut costs other than hull integrity (i.e., the cost of all of the resin is probably less than a single harken 70.3 performa winch) . They specifically stated that the vinylester mix they are using is water impermeable at the molecular level, which I take to mean that it does not have the same issues that the internet thinks make vinylester inferior. 

Makes sense to me. They seem to know what they are talking about.  

 

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1 minute ago, tumbleweed314 said:

I'm not super familiar with the differences between them --which is probably obvious from my initial post, since I conflated epoxy to mean all resins-- Doing some research over the last couple days, most of the non-manufacturer-biased whitepapers suggests that:

1)epoxy does a better job resisting water intrusion/replacement of internal molecular bonds than vinylester, which is far superior to polyester

2) vinylester bonds better with foam, and epoxy with wood.  This boat is foam core.

The builder thinks this is the best material for the job.  It's not about the price. Honestly, the difference in price is a rounding error , and there are other places to cut costs other than hull integrity (i.e., the cost of all of the resin is probably less than a single harken 70.3 performa winch) . They specifically stated that the vinylester mix they are using is water impermeable at the molecular level, which I take to mean that it does not have the same issues that the internet thinks make vinylester inferior. 

Makes sense to me. They seem to know what they are talking about.  

 

And there’s material tech and build tech.  Interesting dance there.  We’re what I’d call medium tech materials (foam/wood/epoxy) but a fairly high tech build.  Within 10% weight of carbon, for less bucks, holding up well after 20 years.  Care, love, and feeding.....$$$$$$

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Ever look a Comanche in the carbon?

It was/is mind twisting just sitting at the dock,  powered up and going past, you really didn't get time to take it all in!

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On 11/12/2020 at 7:08 PM, European Bloke said:

Can someone explain why when building a relatively expensive higher end boat they don't use an epoxy resin?

I don t know. Perhaps a bunch of trade off.

I am not sure polyester gelcoat and epoxy resin mix well. Epoxy gelcoats have problems with UV. PU paints have a shorter life than gelcoats.

If you mix polyester parts and epoxy parts, I do not know how you can bond them or laminate them (secondary lamination) together. So you will have to do all in epoxy.

The pogo 50 is the high end for Structure yard. Other boats are smaller, where epoxy may be a pricey option. They have a full team, tooling and knowledge for processing polyester/vinilester. The cost for switching to epoxy only for higher end models would be much more than the price of the resin itself.

 

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23 minutes ago, fcfc said:

I don t know. Perhaps a bunch of trade off.

I am not sure polyester gelcoat and epoxy resin mix well. Epoxy gelcoats have problems with UV. PU paints have a shorter life than gelcoats.

If you mix polyester parts and epoxy parts, I do not know how you can bond them or laminate them (secondary lamination) together. So you will have to do all in epoxy.

The pogo 50 is the high end for Structure yard. Other boats are smaller, where epoxy may be a pricey option. They have a full team, tooling and knowledge for processing polyester/vinilester. The cost for switching to epoxy only for higher end models would be much more than the price of the resin itself.

 

I assumed there was a good reason for it, I'm not just throwing stones.

I'm sure it's not purely cost, these boats don't seem to be built to a price point. I know early on we had trouble with epoxy bonding to stuff that wasn't epoxy, but we seem to have worked that out.

I was interested to hear the considerations from someone with experience of building performance boats.

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On 11/14/2020 at 12:26 AM, Chimp too said:

The ones I work on these days tend to take 3-5 years to build. Not touched poly or vinylester for over 25 years, even for the cheapest of tooling. I tend to work on builds meant to last more than a couple of years before losing their spring. Just saying.

You still haven't answered how it is you allegedly know so much more than Pogo about composite boat building.

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1 hour ago, European Bloke said:

I'm sure it's not purely cost, these boats don't seem to be built to a price point....

 

I fear most boats are built to a price point, including the Pogo 50.

Otherwise, it would have looked like this : https://en.finot-conq.com/fc3-53-n1

Similar design from the same architect, but slightly longer, and in carbon/corecell/nomex.

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3 hours ago, fcfc said:

 

I fear most boats are built to a price point, including the Pogo 50.

Otherwise, it would have looked like this : https://en.finot-conq.com/fc3-53-n1

Similar design from the same architect, but slightly longer, and in carbon/corecell/nomex.

When you manufacture/engineer stuff very often there is a point beyond which extra money/sophistication gives you diminishing returns. I suspect that this is the point Structures is aiming for.... So boat is not quite as stiff / fast as a full carbon no expenses spared racing machine but the difference isn't big for a budget that is much much more reasonable.

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Yes epoxy and vinyl have diff performance characteristics - but often vinylester has better tensile elongation, higher flexural strength. A properly designed and built hull should never go remotely close to its ultimate strength - so really who cares? If you're building with PVC foam & fiberglass, you use vinyl. If you're building with marine ply - epoxy. If you're building with carbon and paper core products? Epoxy. 

If you got a epoxy boat you paint it - the new marine coatings are very good and you get beautiful color options. If you want gelcoat? You use vinylester. 

It is all fine - the boat is not going to suddenly break apart and sink because of one or the other. The hull is always barrier coated/primed and antifouled anyway. You want to spend the $ on better winches, cushions and a watermaker or the money on a hull that'll never suffer with either during your natural sailing lifetime?

 

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Agree with Miffy. The problem is that with a poly deck and vinylester hull, it will go saggy much quicker than if engineered and built with epoxy. You can spend the little saving on fancier winches, but don’t be surprised when the runner loads get harder and harder to attain as the boat bends more as the micro racking increases.

And Autonomous, I wasn’t asked for my boat building CV, I was asked how many boats I build each year. I answered that, but ain’t posting my CV here.

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When you declared the Pogo a shit build your credibility went out the window. It's not a world class racer. The choice of poly or vinyl resin where appropriate demonstrates the engineers are balancing structural, budget and production realities. Same with the PVC and SAN core choices which again suggests smart engineering rather then a blind adherence to one size fits all.

"Hull built by vacuum infusion, female mould, made of high density S.A.N. foam core, multiaxial fibreglass and vinylester resin.
Deck built by vacuum infusion, female mould, SAN&PVC foam core, fibreglass, polyester resin.
Interior structures built by vacuum infusion, female mould, fibreglass/ polyester resin and PVC foam."

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1 hour ago, Autonomous said:

When you declared the Pogo a shit build your credibility went out the window. It's not a world class racer. The choice of poly or vinyl resin where appropriate demonstrates the engineers are balancing structural, budget and production realities. Same with the PVC and SAN core choices which again suggests smart engineering rather then a blind adherence to one size fits all.

"Hull built by vacuum infusion, female mould, made of high density S.A.N. foam core, multiaxial fibreglass and vinylester resin.
Deck built by vacuum infusion, female mould, SAN&PVC foam core, fibreglass, polyester resin.
Interior structures built by vacuum infusion, female mould, fibreglass/ polyester resin and PVC foam."

I didn’t say it is a shit build. I just don’t understand why you would build a boat of this size and type with such inferior resin systems. There is a reason this boat will be alone as a performance 50 built with these materials in the last 30 years. The material choice just doesn’t make sense to me. 

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On 11/13/2020 at 3:08 AM, Chimp too said:

Good enough if you are happy with a shit job! Can’t understand why they aren’t using epoxy for a boat of this size. If money is so tight that this is the reason, do a pogo 48 and do it properly.

OK, you said a shit job which seems pretty similar.

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13 minutes ago, whydah_gally said:

Also you could just have used the latest imoca official cad plans and downsize to 50, while tweaking and making structural reinforcements and long term blue water mods.

Have you seen the inside of an Imoca 60? No standing headroom and a 'living' area of like 2x6 meters just behind the mast. The rest of the boat is just bulkheads and sail storage in light air. Do you really think the average cruising couple knows how to handle a wing mast and 3 headsails? I almost think there couldn't be a worse boat to base a cruising boat off of

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2 minutes ago, whydah_gally said:

it's the hull  and bow shape and the type of structural reinforcement configuration what matters in the imoca. As I said in the post you can make tweaks in the design..... to live aboard as cabin size increase and height and bulkhead modification, etc.

I would rather use two or three light masts, what reduces structural reinforcement weight and center of mass

You have already proven you don't know shit from shinola. Why are you commenting here?

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7 minutes ago, whydah_gally said:

it's the hull  and bow shape and the type of structural reinforcement configuration what matters in the imoca. As I said in the post you can make tweaks in the design..... to live aboard as cabin size increase and height and bulkhead modification, etc.

I would rather use two or three light masts, what reduces structural reinforcement weight and center of mass

Hang on, just to get this straight, you want a:

- Carbon Fibre, Scow bow, brigantine (3 masts) rigged, Imoca 60 with a cabin top on it? Is it foiling too? 

Have you ever seen a boat in real life mate? 

You're nuts.

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2 minutes ago, whydah_gally said:

that boat is also based in a racer, the TP52, but with modifications to make it livable

https://www.mcconaghyboats.com/all4onetp52

 

I'm not answering to your straw man arguments, ignored.

You have nothing to offer this thread, so just put everyone on ignore. And we will ignore you.

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Just now, Israel Hands said:

You have nothing to offer this thread, so just put everyone on ignore. And we will ignore you.

Gotta say im a bit sad that im ignored, im so intrigued as to how one would make a three masted imoca

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Just now, Fintho said:

Gotta say im a bit sad that im ignored, im so intrigued as to how one would make a three masted imoca

If you go over to his "diy" thread, you will see that you've joined an honorable list of ignorees. :)

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If y’all haven’t noticed the OP has paid the down payment + 1/3 to commence a build for a Pogo 50. If you’re dreaming of winning the lottery and building some phantom freak show? There’s plenty of aspirational threads in cruiser forum - IOW the OP has more $ and time than you and probably knows more than you too. STFU with alternate boat pitches and let 314 have his thread. 

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