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Covid Misinformation Time-Outs


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I just banned BlatantEcho until 10/1 for posting fake information about COVID. I'm not sure why he wants people to die while he takes advantage of the the pandemic to take a low-cost sex tourism trip through eastern europe, but it doesn't matter.

Anyone else who posts pretend science from history professors, pretend epidemiology from demon sperm docs or stem cell promoters, or posts monday morning numbers over and over again to try to prove that the we are 'rounding the corner'  is going to get the boot for at least a few weeks.  If it looks like you are deliberately trying to get people to stop protecting themselves or others, longer.

 

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Just now, MR.CLEAN said:

tanks?  

 

You're welcome.

Ironically the only person who had been asking for tanks in DC has been the bone spur in chief. The Army and DC logistics folks have been saying the 60+ ton abrams will hurt roads and bridges. 

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14 hours ago, Ishmael said:

There are consonants to burn, so feel free. If you have some spare vowels, you can send them to Poland, where there is an acute shortage.

I will gladly send a box of assorted vowels to our dear neighbours and I will send them with thanks. :) 

 

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On 9/14/2020 at 9:40 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

I just banned BlatantEcho until 10/1 for posting fake information about COVID. I'm not sure why he wants people to die while he takes advantage of the the pandemic to take a low-cost sex tourism trip through eastern europe, but it doesn't matter.

Anyone else who posts pretend science from history professors, pretend epidemiology from demon sperm docs or stem cell promoters, or posts monday morning numbers over and over again to try to prove that the we are 'rounding the corner'  is going to get the boot for at least a few weeks.  If it looks like you are deliberately trying to get people to stop protecting themselves or others, longer.

 

MINNEAPOLIS (The Borowitz Report)—Scientists have discovered a powerful new strain of fact-resistant humans who are threatening the ability of Earth to sustain life, a sobering new study reports.

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7 hours ago, LB 15 said:

A recent university study has shown that Trump supporters who contract the virus show no ill effects and their dicks grow huge. 

Was it Trump U that did the study?

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On 9/14/2020 at 9:40 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

I just banned BlatantEcho until 10/1 for posting fake information about COVID. I'm not sure why he wants people to die while he takes advantage of the the pandemic to take a low-cost sex tourism trip through eastern europe, but it doesn't matter.

Anyone else who posts pretend science from history professors, pretend epidemiology from demon sperm docs or stem cell promoters, or posts monday morning numbers over and over again to try to prove that the we are 'rounding the corner'  is going to get the boot for at least a few weeks.  If it looks like you are deliberately trying to get people to stop protecting themselves or others, longer.

 

I will keep it simple:

  • CV19 is more infectious than most version of flu.  We know as a fact that it is more infectious than the flu.  We postulate that this is for 3 reasons (i) The host can be infectious before displaying symptoms  (ii) CV19 has a very high rate of shedding. A host sheds hundreds of thousands of Cv19 molecules and (iii) The molecule is quite robust in different climates.  However the reasons for the rate of infection is still being researched
  • CV19 has a significantly higher mortality rate than flu. We know this as a fact.

Blatant struggled with these facts, advocating that CV19 was no worse than an average flu. 

However in our favor,

(1) The attachment is inefficient so masks really reduce infection. The degree of correlation between wearing masks and lower rate of infection appears to bear this out.

(2) At least 6 clinical stage vaccines produce encouraging levels of antibodies. 170 vaccines are being worked on. There are grounds for optimism that a vaccine will be found.

Personally I disagree with the CDC representative testimony today that masks are more effective than a vaccine....but that is probably cause for debate elsewhere.

Eye!

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15 minutes ago, EYESAILOR said:

Personally I disagree with the CDC representative testimony today that masks are more effective than a vaccine....but that is probably cause for debate elsewhere.

You and Trump.

“It’s just incorrect": Trump contradicts CDC director’s testimony to Congress about COVID-19 vaccine, SEPTEMBER 16, 2020
“I think he misunderstood the questions," Trump says as he contradicts his own CDC head on masks and vaccines
https://www.salon.com/2020/09/16/its-just-incorrect-trump-contradicts-cdc-directors-testimony-to-congress-about-covid-19-vaccine_partner/

Quote

[CDC Director Robert Redfield] told Congress on Thursday that a vaccine may be approved by the end of the year, but it will only be available at that time for a narrow group of people.

"There will be a vaccine that will initially be available sometime between November and December, but very limited supply and will have to be prioritized," he told lawmakers. "If you're asking me when is it going to be generally available to the American public so we can begin to take advantage of vaccine to get back to our regular life, I think we're probably looking at late second quarter, third quarter 2021."

He also stressed why a mask can be superior to a vaccine: "I might even go so far as to say that this face mask is more guaranteed to protect me against COVID than when I take a COVID vaccine, because the immunogenicity may be 70%. And if I don't get an immune response, the vaccine is not going to protect me. This face mask will."

 

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12 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

Personally I disagree with the CDC representative testimony today that masks are more effective than a vaccine....but that is probably cause for debate elsewhere.

The CDC Head Said Masks Are Better Than Vaccines. Here’s What He Meant. September 16, 2020 by Kiera Butler, Senior Editor
Robert Redfield could work on his delivery, but he has a point.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/09/the-cdc-head-said-masks-are-better-than-vaccines-heres-what-he-meant/

Quote

This is an essential concept for everyone in the world to understand—because if we continue to think of the vaccine as a silver bullet, the results could be disastrous. Let’s say it’s next spring, and a group of family and friends all gets the vaccine just in time for an Easter gathering. Thinking they’re no longer at risk of spreading the virus, they go to church, where they sing and socialize, then enjoy a meal together at someone’s house—all without masks. If the vaccine is only 60 percent effective, this group unwittingly could be spreading the virus far and wide.

 

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13 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I will keep it simple:

  • CV19 is more infectious than most version of flu.  We know as a fact that it is more infectious than the flu.  We postulate that this is for 3 reasons (i) The host can be infectious before displaying symptoms  (ii) CV19 has a very high rate of shedding. A host sheds hundreds of thousands of Cv19 molecules and (iii) The molecule is quite robust in different climates.  However the reasons for the rate of infection is still being researched
  • CV19 has a significantly higher mortality rate than flu. We know this as a fact.

Blatant struggled with these facts, advocating that CV19 was no worse than an average flu. 

However in our favor,

(1) The attachment is inefficient so masks really reduce infection. The degree of correlation between wearing masks and lower rate of infection appears to bear this out.

(2) At least 6 clinical stage vaccines produce encouraging levels of antibodies. 170 vaccines are being worked on. There are grounds for optimism that a vaccine will be found.

Personally I disagree with the CDC representative testimony today that masks are more effective than a vaccine....but that is probably cause for debate elsewhere.

Eye!

As a medical professional, do you have any concerns that vaccine testing is being rushed or that negative effects are being suppressed or glossed over in an attempt to get a vaccine into production for political reasons?

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14 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I will keep it simple:

  • CV19 is more infectious than most version of flu.  We know as a fact that it is more infectious than the flu.  We postulate that this is for 3 reasons (i) The host can be infectious before displaying symptoms  (ii) CV19 has a very high rate of shedding. A host sheds hundreds of thousands of Cv19 molecules and (iii) The molecule is quite robust in different climates.  However the reasons for the rate of infection is still being researched
  • CV19 has a significantly higher mortality rate than flu. We know this as a fact.

Blatant struggled with these facts, advocating that CV19 was no worse than an average flu. 

However in our favor,

(1) The attachment is inefficient so masks really reduce infection. The degree of correlation between wearing masks and lower rate of infection appears to bear this out.

(2) At least 6 clinical stage vaccines produce encouraging levels of antibodies. 170 vaccines are being worked on. There are grounds for optimism that a vaccine will be found.

Personally I disagree with the CDC representative testimony today that masks are more effective than a vaccine....but that is probably cause for debate elsewhere.

Eye!

Do you have any insights concerning this recently developed Therapeutic  ?

https://www.pittwire.pitt.edu/news/pitt-scientists-discover-tiny-antibody-component-highly-effective-preventing-and-treating-sars

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26 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Do you have any insights concerning this recently developed Therapeutic  ?

These sorts of announcements set off alarm bells. They skipped the peer review (see Cold Fusion) and went straight to the university marketing department: Ab8 == Abate. Too clever to be an accident.

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

The CDC Head Said Masks Are Better Than Vaccines. Here’s What He Meant. September 16, 2020 by Kiera Butler, Senior Editor
Robert Redfield could work on his delivery, but he has a point.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/09/the-cdc-head-said-masks-are-better-than-vaccines-heres-what-he-meant/ 

In a perfect world he would be right, if everyone was to wear masks the virus would die out in 14 days.  Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world so we also need a vaccine.

Some cultures like Asia have a high uptake of masks and they have the virus under control but Europe and the USA seem to have a death wish.

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48 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

if everyone was to wear masks the virus would die out in 14 days.  Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world so we also need a vaccine.

We should probably have this discussion elsewhere and avoid drifting this thread any further...

However, like masks, vaccines require a high rate of adoption.  It may be that some of those unwilling to wear masks will go for a vaccine but even so, it will take a long time to vaccinate 50% of the population.  If the vaccine immunogenicity is only 70% (I believe I read that emergency approval requires only 50%?) then 70% times 50% of the population is only 35% of people effectively immunized - and 65% still vulnerable.

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Stupid: “mAsK vs nonexistent vAcCine? wHich iS mOre eFfective?”

 

Sensible: multilayered response that mitigates each response strategy’s weaknesses until we have this disease under control?

Hey look there’s a leak in the ship. The bilge pumps aren’t keeping up. *hammers in a bung and random oakum and bilge pumps keep up*

Stupid: “maYbe we should instead tig weld a plate over the leak in the drydock?”

 

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6 hours ago, Ajax said:

As a medical professional, do you have any concerns that vaccine testing is being rushed or that negative effects are being suppressed or glossed over in an attempt to get a vaccine into production for political reasons?

There is another thread on this started by me.

In brief:

1. The time from pre clinical to approved vaccine is unusually short. I do not believe that the fundamental reason for this is political. I realize that some of the publicity around the vaccines are almost certainly affected by politics. I think it is inexcusable that the vaccine has become a political football and I agree that is distasteful and inappropriate, hopefully voters can see through this.

2. I dont believe the primary driver to timely vaccines is political. I think it is driven by Medical Need (This is a genuine health crisis), Previous Experience (The Vaccines for SARS1 arrived too late) and mostly a realization that pandemics can happen and due to some secular trends will happen again. We have to get better at this and one way is a faster route to vaccines. We have the science to develop vaccines faster and so now we need to plan how to execute. 

3. The way we got faster is :

(i) Genomics and BioTech allowed us to identify the DNA of CV19 molecule almost immediately

(ii) Parallel Trials.  We embarked on each phase before the prior phase was fully finished. It actually makes sense because we have the results of phase 2 before we finish phase 3 and the phase 2 trials inform the phase 3 trials in real time.

(iii) Operation warp speed which funded "at risk" production of several vaccines before any trials completed which no commercial venture would risk that capital. It makes sense for government because building and later jettisoning the factory of an unsuccessful vaccine candidate is a drop in the ocean compared to the weekly losses to the economy.

I do not believe it is political because the rapid trials are being conducted all around the world in countries of different political persuasion.

I have concerns but I also have a genuine trust of the individuals supervising the trial results. I have posted their names on the other thread. Good people who will not be swayed by political persuasion.

 

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20 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I will keep it simple:

  • CV19 is more infectious than most version of flu.  We know as a fact that it is more infectious than the flu.  We postulate that this is for 3 reasons (i) The host can be infectious before displaying symptoms  (ii) CV19 has a very high rate of shedding. A host sheds hundreds of thousands of Cv19 molecules and (iii) The molecule is quite robust in different climates.  However the reasons for the rate of infection is still being researched
  • CV19 has a significantly higher mortality rate than flu. We know this as a fact.

Blatant struggled with these facts, advocating that CV19 was no worse than an average flu. 

However in our favor,

(1) The attachment is inefficient so masks really reduce infection. The degree of correlation between wearing masks and lower rate of infection appears to bear this out.

(2) At least 6 clinical stage vaccines produce encouraging levels of antibodies. 170 vaccines are being worked on. There are grounds for optimism that a vaccine will be found.

Personally I disagree with the CDC representative testimony today that masks are more effective than a vaccine....but that is probably cause for debate elsewhere.

Eye!

No its not.

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21 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

I will keep it simple:

  • CV19 is more infectious than most version of flu.  We know as a fact that it is more infectious than the flu.  We postulate that this is for 3 reasons (i) The host can be infectious before displaying symptoms  (ii) CV19 has a very high rate of shedding. A host sheds hundreds of thousands of Cv19 molecules and (iii) The molecule is quite robust in different climates.  However the reasons for the rate of infection is still being researched
  • CV19 has a significantly higher mortality rate than flu. We know this as a fact.

Blatant struggled with these facts, advocating that CV19 was no worse than an average flu. 

However in our favor,

(1) The attachment is inefficient so masks really reduce infection. The degree of correlation between wearing masks and lower rate of infection appears to bear this out.

(2) At least 6 clinical stage vaccines produce encouraging levels of antibodies. 170 vaccines are being worked on. There are grounds for optimism that a vaccine will be found.

Personally I disagree with the CDC representative testimony today that masks are more effective than a vaccine....but that is probably cause for debate elsewhere.

Eye!

This drives me crazy- when you say masks reduce infections, do you mean

-Universal masking?  

-Reduced infection if you’re wearing a mask and others aren’t?  

-Reduced infection if others are wearing a mask, and you aren’t?

Less than ~ 50% of the population are masking. 
 

When you say masks, are you including respirators?

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1 hour ago, EYESAILOR said:

I do not believe that the fundamental reason for this is political.
[...]
I dont believe the primary driver to timely vaccines is political.
[...]
I do not believe it is political because the rapid trials are being conducted all around the world in countries of different political persuasion.

Everything you say makes good sense and is appreciated EXCEPT your insistence that Trump's wish to announce a vaccine before the election is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant.  This is just simple situational awareness, nothing more.  In politics (indeed, in many aspects of human endeavor), perception matters more than truth. 

More Than Half of Americans Worry That White House Pressure Will Lead to a Rushed Coronavirus Vaccine, SEPTEMBER 11, 2020
https://time.com/5887777/rushed-vaccine-democrats-republicans/

Most Americans worry coronavirus vaccine will be rushed by political pressure, new poll finds, September 10, 2020
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/09/10/coronavirus-covid-live-updates-us/

COVID-19 Vaccine May Pit Science Against Politics, August 27, 2020
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/08/27/906240454/covid-19-vaccine-may-pit-science-against-politics

Poll: Most Americans believe the Covid-19 vaccine approval process is driven by politics, not science, AUGUST 31, 2020
https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2020/08/31/most-americans-believe-the-covid-19-vaccine-approval-process-is-driven-by-politics-not-science/

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7 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

In a perfect world he would be right, if everyone was to wear masks the virus would die out in 14 days.  Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world so we also need a vaccine.

Some cultures like Asia have a high uptake of masks and they have the virus under control but Europe and the USA seem to have a death wish.

I loved it- Redfield held up a crumpled mask in his fingers, and it looked like he put the same mask on later.  That does not look like proper mask handling- I didn’t see him even using a hand sanitizer.  If this is how an MD handles his mask, what can you expect of everyone else?  Add to that his sloppy use of the word mask.  Did he lump the term respirator in with the word mask?  You have to watch these Trumpaloos- they like to tacitly play with word meanings.
 

Arrogant condescension, pure and simple.  Ban Redfield.  Ban him now.

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I sort of agree with the idea that a push for a vaccine is not all politics but I do think its more about profit. The scientists doing the work may be doing it for all the right reasons but the company bosses are just looking at the money.

There are many promising treatments being studied, some are having remarkable results in their early trials but media is almost silent on it.

Successfully treating the infected, by reducing the severity of their illness, cuts massively into the profits that could be made from a vaccine.

remdesivir was approved as a treatment pretty rapidly with some less than miraculous effectiveness, other treatments that have shown better effectiveness and less side effects are being stalled in the CDC approval or recommendation stage. Even the Remdesvir makers seem to be gaming it.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/14/gilead-should-ditch-remdesivir-and-focus-on-its-simpler-safer-ancestor/

Vaccines are just too valuable to the industry to allow people to get the idea that there are other approaches that might be just as good if not better.

Even eye here drops his blind allegiance to the experts advice when it deviates from the vaccine path.

Lets see some more talk about treatments.

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14 minutes ago, Amati said:

Redfield held up a crumpled mask in his fingers, and it looked like he put the same mask on later.  That does not look like proper mask handling

A crumpled cloth mask still does its job.  We aren't doing surgery.  For most of us, frequent use of hand sanitizer is overrated.

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5 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

A crumpled cloth mask still does its job.  We aren't doing surgery.  For most of us, frequent use of hand sanitizer is overrated.

It’s job of protecting others? It’s job of protecting you?  The question becomes if you pick up some COVID crumbs (I know they’re not crumbs, so please bear with me) with your hand, from a table, handle the inside of your surgical mask with that hand, then put the mask on your face so your nose and mouth are touching the inside with said crumbs, do you suck those crumbs into your lungs when you breathe in?  Has the mask been tested for faulty seams, did you look at it to check the seams?  Any damage to the material?  Say around the edges?  Lack of specificity is more that inconvenient here.

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A high-level tRump administration other than Fauci finally promotes basic mask-wearing as a valuable Covid-19 mitigation and there are people who want to criticize him for his technique.  Did he extend his pinky-finger too far when he was putting it on?  

After 7 months of failure, this isn't a country that needs schooling on the fine points mask wearing or hand-sanitizer use.  We should just cheer for anyone who wants to contradict the lies and buffoonery coming out of the Orange Deathstar.  

My uneducated take on all of this:

We know masks reduce transmission.  We will be wearing them for a long time.  A vaccine will reduce transmission and protect most who get it from Covid-19.  But it isn't going to change much in the short, mid or even long term.  

Even if we get the vaccine, and even if it gets widely distributed, until the numbers start dropping and stay down, you still better hope everyone in your city is wearing their masks if you want a re-opened economy.  

Get to be good friends with your mask.  You'll be wearing one for another year if we want to beat this thing.

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@EYESAILOR Thanks for your insight.

There's a lot of grumbling about whether or not people will get vaccinated and why.

My unscientific take on it is this:  There are many vaccines being developed and tested by multiple nations and companies. The companies developing them want the prestige of being first, being effective and being safe. It would take a conspiracy on a massive level to hide the fact that a vaccine is unsafe. It would take a conspiracy on a large level to cover up the fact that a vaccine is not effective, but probably safe.  Although profit is a huge motivator, the pharma companies know they stand to lose huge amounts of money and prestige if their vaccines end up killing people or making them sick.  Based on all of this, I feel safe taking a US and/or EU developed vaccine. 

Another factor that makes me feel safe is the fact that I'll be one of the last people to receive the vaccine. I'm not a candidate for early vaccination. I'm not really in an "at risk" category, I'm not a front-line responder or a teacher.  I'm a middle aged, middle class white guy who by many peoples' definitions should be at the very back of the line for vaccination. As such, I figure any glaring problems with the vaccines will manifest themselves long before I ever get it.

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Keep in mind also the vaccine pharmaceuticals have essentially offloaded the opportunity cost of setting up a production line to national governments in exchange for a domestic supply of vaccines - and if they were counting on making more $$$, the vaccine needs to be sellable product going forward and also internationally. 
 

Getting FDA approval is only the first hurdle - winning the international and subsequent season vaccine market is how you actually monetize. 

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22 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Crazy how quickly the conservative texan will 'go socialist' when someone explains to them how private enterprise actually works. 

'but muh freedoms' says Texas man.

lmao are you really talking about me making a wise crack? i swear you are the softest lil bitcc in the world.

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1 hour ago, Mark Set said:

lmao are you really talking about me making a wise crack? 

talking about you being, like all texans, a cuck and a snow flake. You sit in the corner while Trump throws the mushroom head into your lady.  

 

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5 hours ago, Ajax said:

@EYESAILOR Thanks for your insight.

There's a lot of grumbling about whether or not people will get vaccinated and why.

My unscientific take on it is this:  There are many vaccines being developed and tested by multiple nations and companies. The companies developing them want the prestige of being first, being effective and being safe. It would take a conspiracy on a massive level to hide the fact that a vaccine is unsafe. It would take a conspiracy on a large level to cover up the fact that a vaccine is not effective, but probably safe.  Although profit is a huge motivator, the pharma companies know they stand to lose huge amounts of money and prestige if their vaccines end up killing people or making them sick.  Based on all of this, I feel safe taking a US and/or EU developed vaccine. 

Another factor that makes me feel safe is the fact that I'll be one of the last people to receive the vaccine. I'm not a candidate for early vaccination. I'm not really in an "at risk" category, I'm not a front-line responder or a teacher.  I'm a middle aged, middle class white guy who by many peoples' definitions should be at the very back of the line for vaccination. As such, I figure any glaring problems with the vaccines will manifest themselves long before I ever get it.

Makes sense

I would also add that although we are all focused on politics etc. The reality is that many people with long careers at the OVRR and FDA place more importance on their reputation and relationships within the scientific community and sleeping well at night to get involved with any fraud.  Scientists at the FDA who have worked there for 15+ years are mostly honest people who want to be proud of doing good work. They will reject a vaccine that is unsafe and recommend approval of a vaccine that is both safe and effective.  I think it highly unlikely that an unsafe vaccine rejected by the study can somehow get pulled out from the process and approved.

More likely is that a preliminary approval is given for a vaccine that is safe and appears initially to be effective but we dont really know precisely how effective it is and how long it lasts.  The OVRR will probably be very transparent and explain that it is safe but until the trial has gone on for longer we dont know how long it will remain effective. That is okay right? Better to take something now that is safe. Control CV19 and figure out when we next need a booster down the line.

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HAHA!

Wouldn't EVERYONE who posts on this topic need to be banned since there's no real information, just the bullshit you're being fed by whores trying to sell you shit?

 

99% of it is hand wringing and pants pissing over virtually nothing, so who really gives two strokes of a limp dick anyways?

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29 minutes ago, Hatin' life said:

HAHA!

Wouldn't EVERYONE who posts on this topic need to be banned since there's no real information, just the bullshit you're being fed by whores trying to sell you shit?

 

99% of it is hand wringing and pants pissing over virtually nothing, so who really gives two strokes of a limp dick anyways?

Jaysus Karl, you really are a "glass half empty" kind of guy aren't you!

I think it's unnecessary and uncalled for to describe helpful contributors like Eyesailor as "whores", and I don't see that he/she is trying to sell anyone anything.

If you choose to ignore helpful contributions and call them pissing and moaning, that's up to you - but your view is pretty firmly in the minority, so don't bother continuing to try to sell YOUR particular brand of bullshit.

Thanks.

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The networks selling advertising are the whores.  Anything to keep you glued to the idiot box to buy something.

 

And I follow the Gary Larson approach to kinds of people.

Those that say the glass is half full, those that say it is half empty, and those who say they ordered a cheeseburger....

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1 hour ago, Hatin' life said:

HAHA!

Wouldn't EVERYONE who posts on this topic need to be banned since there's no real information, just the bullshit

Meanwhile

Quote

COVID-19 Conspiracy Theories Are Spreading Rapidly—and They're a Public Health Risk All Their Own

 

In a University of Pennsylvania Annenberg Public Policy Center study published Monday in Social Science & Medicine, researchers surveyed a group of 840 U.S. adults—first in late March, and then again in mid-July—to determine how Americans’ beliefs and actions regarding the pandemic changed over time. Overall, they found that COVID-19 conspiracy theories are not only commonplace, they’re gaining traction. Back in March, 28% of people believed a debunked rumor that the Chinese government created the coronavirus as a bioweapon; that number rose to 37% by July. About 24% believed that the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention exaggerated the virus’ danger to hurt Trump politically despite a lack of evidence; by July, that figure rose to 32%. And in March, about 15% of respondents said they believed that the pharmaceutical industry created the virus to boost drug and vaccine sales—another unfounded theory—compared to 17% in July.

Whether or not someone thinks NASA hired Stanley Kubrick to fake the moon landing has little bearing on the world beyond that person. But in the case of a pandemic—which requires people to follow public health guidance in order to keep one another safe—conspiratorial thinking can have disturbing consequences

Furthermore, people who believe COVID-19 conspiracy theories were 2.2 times less likely to say they wanted to receive a vaccine in March; by July, they were 3.5 times less likely to want to be vaccinated.

https://time.com/5891333/covid-19-conspiracy-theories/

 

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2 hours ago, Hatin' life said:

The networks selling advertising are the whores.  Anything to keep you glued to the idiot box to buy something.

 

...

What’s a network?  
What is TV advertising?

Something my kids study in their history books.

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On 9/18/2020 at 1:06 AM, d'ranger said:

Owning Libs is hard work.  Mostly cuz they just don't cooperate very well and keep wandering off.  And refuse to keep their opinions to themselves.  And always keep asking why?

image.png.ed614f8f3c280cd7163d372169a9b500.png

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2 hours ago, Hatin' life said:

The networks selling advertising are the whores.  Anything to keep you glued to the idiot box to buy something.

 

And I follow the Gary Larson approach to kinds of people.

Those that say the glass is half full, those that say it is half empty, and those who say they ordered a cheeseburger....

While I don't necessarily disagree with your first statement, it's drawing a long bow to say that it follows that there is no real information.  I think there's plenty of information and knowledge about COVID out there to assist people to protect themselves (assuming you live in a country that believes in science) and on which governments can base public policy (assuming you live in a country where the government recognises science).

There are also malicious and/or ignorant people spreading bullshit, for whatever twisted reason that I don't understand, and I applaud Clean stomping on that - would that your president adopted the same approach.

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2 hours ago, Recidivist said:

There are also malicious and/or ignorant people spreading bullshit, for whatever twisted reason that I don't understand,

Most are good at it in that they source buried whackjob information or reconstruct real data to misrepresent it. That is a concerted effort to misinform not ignorance. Being easily promoted as a old people's disease is fertile ground, particularly where strong division already exists.

The "why" looks to be tribal so the usual suspects, big brother, me not wees and a political flavour from the right, but not necessarily all countries. Some conservative Governments are even split on setting response levels.

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On 9/16/2020 at 9:34 PM, EYESAILOR said:

Personally I disagree with the CDC representative testimony today that masks are more effective than a vaccine....but that is probably cause for debate elsewhere.

COVID can morph, just like the flu, to the point another vaccine has to be created.  Masks don't care about how much a virus morphs.  They always reduce the amount of germs we spew from our nose and mouth and they always reduce the amount of germs coming back in. 

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On 9/14/2020 at 6:40 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

I just banned BlatantEcho until 10/1 for posting fake information about COVID. I'm not sure why he wants people to die while he takes advantage of the the pandemic to take a low-cost sex tourism trip through eastern europe, but it doesn't matter.

Anyone else who posts pretend science from history professors, pretend epidemiology from demon sperm docs or stem cell promoters, or posts monday morning numbers over and over again to try to prove that the we are 'rounding the corner'  is going to get the boot for at least a few weeks.  If it looks like you are deliberately trying to get people to stop protecting themselves or others, longer.

 

Just saw this, & FWIW, thanks for resisting, esp when it makes a formal difference.

Clint Watts will be smiling.  Well, as much as he can.....

https://www.amazon.com/Messing-Enemy-Surviving-Terrorists-Russians/dp/1982528788

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5 hours ago, Amati said:

Just saw this, & FWIW, thanks for resisting, esp when it makes a formal difference.

Clint Watts will be smiling.  Well, as much as he can.....

https://www.amazon.com/Messing-Enemy-Surviving-Terrorists-Russians/dp/1982528788

All of my favorite bars won't serve me.  And I seem to find someone who will accept my sick ass.

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3 hours ago, apophenia said:

Good.

Masks work: Taiwan is still sitting at 7 deaths, ~24M people in a highly urbanized subtropical island and no lockdown.

Too bad they have almost no sailing culture, I'm ready to start learning Mandarin.

Both Taiwan and Iceland had a few elements in their plans that would be to "Socialist" for America or Australia.

The Taiwanese government acted quickly to control its borders. It activated a Central Epidemic Command Centre (CECC) on January 20 to coordinate cooperation across different government ministries and agencies, and between government and businesses. The CECC also coordinates big data analytics, testing, quarantine and contact tracing.

Taiwan’s National Health Insurance Administration and National Immigration Agency worked together to identify suspected cases for COVID-19 testing, integrating their databases of citizens’ medical and travel history. Since late March, all new arrivals must quarantine for 14 days.

CECC also partnered with police agencies, local officials and telecom companies to enforce quarantine with the support of mobile phone tracking. Local officials would call quarantined citizens to ask about their health and bring them basic daily supplies if required. Along with a 24-hour helpline, Taiwan’s Center for Disease Control collaborated with two tech companies  HTC and LINE) – to create a chatbot which allowed people to report their health status and get advice about the virus.

To avoid the panic buying of face masks, the government rationed their distribution and ramped up production. In February, the government partnered with the Machine Tool & Accessory Builders’ Association and manufacturers, investing in new machinery to produce surgical face masks. In return, manufacturers have to sell the masks back to the government at an agreed price.

Iceland’s strategy

Iceland provides another example of a country which used a cooperative strategy to manage the pandemic. As of June 29, Iceland had recorded 10 deaths and 1,838 confirmed COVID-19 infections, of which 1,816 have fully recovered. Its success can be explained by the government’s quick action in activating the National Crisis Coordination Center on January 31 to coordinate the country’s response to COVID-19 through mass testing, quarantine and tracing close contacts of infected citizens.

A public-private partnership between the National University Hospital of Iceland and deCODE Genetics enabled Iceland to carry out aggressive testing from February.

The Directorate of Health worked with the Department of Civil Protection and Emergency Management to create a team of 60 contact tracers in February, drawn from police investigators and healthcare workers. In this collaboration, the police contributed their expertise in traditional detective methods and enforced quarantine rules.

The governments of both Taiwan and Iceland have secured high levels of public trust for their responses to coronavirus. In Taiwan, YouGov polls in May showed that public trust in the government and healthcare professionals on COVID-19 was very high – at over 80%. A combination of transparency and effectiveness may explain polling in April which suggested that 84% of Icelanders were willing to sacrifice some human rights if it helps to prevent the spread of the virus.

https://theconversation.com/what-coronavirus-success-of-taiwan-and-iceland-has-in-common-140455

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Xi is quite literally a Neo-Maoist who hopes to withdraw China from the world, and yet the average person has far more physical freedom in the PRC right now than the USA.

With paycheck protection and Amazon and Instacart becoming defacto official essential services, I find the idea that mask production is too much to ask for to be perplexing.

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1 hour ago, apophenia said:

Xi is quite literally a Neo-Maoist who hopes to withdraw China from the world, and yet the average person has far more physical freedom in the PRC right now than the USA.

Xi withdraw China from the world??? That is way, way off base.

Xi Jinping's marxism is based on out-thinking the West with China's version of capitalism, using practical power and ideas, insisting on deepening globalization, strengthening economic growth and tipping a bucket on isolationism.

Things like trade bloc participation, establishing the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (AIIB) and One Belt One Road strategy etc etc are not those of a China withdrawing from the world. If any country has been withdrawing from the world it has been the US.

This is recognised as many allies of the US are now hedging their bets on their support between China and the US. The only thing slowing that is some appalling domestic human rights issues in China and their methods of projecting power using developing countries.

This shift in support is driving the Trump administration mental. Hence the White House rhetoric attached to the China virus. 

That is pretty weird as it was the WH who pulled the trigger by withdrawing from Paris accord, walking away from trade bloc deals, tipping shit on the WHO and seeking to blow up the WTO and capped that off with a trade war with China, albeit justified in certain areas had a negative impact globally. 

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4 hours ago, apophenia said:

Xi is quite literally a Neo-Maoist who hopes to withdraw China from the world, and yet the average person has far more physical freedom in the PRC right now than the USA.

 

 

20201004_150240.jpg

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I remember a few years ago a CCP money at any cost to promote kind of guy called me a bunch of names for saying Xi Jinping is diff and doesn’t buy into the collective rule precedent respected by those that followed Deng. He said I didn’t know what I was talking about but I’m pretty sure he wasn’t fluent in mandarin, only rubbed shoulders with the $ from a small region and avoided politics or criticism of the CCP. 
 

Didn’t give anyone a heads up re what he was experiencing in the PRC from December to March either. 

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1 hour ago, Miffy said:

I remember a few years ago a CCP money at any cost to promote kind of guy called me a bunch of names for saying Xi Jinping is diff and doesn’t buy into the collective rule precedent respected by those that followed Deng.

You only need to go to his upbringing and rise as first CCP General Secretary born after the establishment of the People's Republic.

Son of a Chinese Communist veteran he was exiled following his father's purge during the cultural revolution, and lived in a cave where he joined the CCP and worked as the party secretary. Rose through the ranks in coastal provinces. Party Secretary of outward looking Shanghai (also ironically birth place of the CCP nearly 100 years ago with Mao at the back of the room) the big break before getting a place in the Politburo. Still in the top job and only in his 60's. Vast majority of the west still ignorant of what makes he and China tick.

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15 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

You only need to go to his upbringing and rise as first CCP General Secretary born after the establishment of the People's Republic.

Son of a Chinese Communist veteran he was exiled following his father's purge during the cultural revolution, and lived in a cave where he joined the CCP and worked as the party secretary. Rose through the ranks in coastal provinces. Party Secretary of outward looking Shanghai (also ironically birth place of the CCP nearly 100 years ago with Mao at the back of the room) the big break before getting a place in the Politburo. Still in the top job and only in his 60's. Vast majority of the west still ignorant of what makes he and China tick.

When Honda wanted to leave F1 - they enabled Brawn GP and cheered them on. 

When state industry DF enters VOR - it just wants to win, move finishes into silly places, promote big China and as soon as they get a trophy say haha hahahaha fuck sailing. 

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35 minutes ago, Miffy said:

When state industry DF enters VOR - it just wants to win, move finishes into silly places, promote big China and as soon as they get a trophy say haha hahahaha fuck sailing.

Miff you know my thoughts on RTW and China ... ratfuckers and RO's who have gotten willingly ratfucked since the Green Dragon over a decade ago. No different than this on a small scale. 

6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

..and their methods of projecting power using developing countries.

 

images - 2020-10-05T014401.695.jpeg

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And there’s no competitive sporting spirit - someone gets killed in HK? Yay let’s celebrate “Chinese 1-2”

Didn’t care for your boat and need a haul out on a stage specifically saying you can’t? Put pressure on OA to pretend the rule isn’t there because “we’re only here to win not to have sport”

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On 9/14/2020 at 9:40 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

Anyone else who posts pretend science from history professors, pretend epidemiology from demon sperm docs or stem cell promoters, or posts monday morning numbers over and over again to try to prove that the we are 'rounding the corner'  is going to get the boot for at least a few weeks. 

I wish our local paper would do the same thing.  I just read a letter to the editor that made bullshit claims, as if they were facts.

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On 10/4/2020 at 6:36 PM, apophenia said:

Xi is quite literally a Neo-Maoist who hopes to withdraw China from the world, and yet the average person has far more physical freedom in the PRC right now than the USA.

Seriously? Everyday people make memes mocking trump and put them up on social Media. Try making and uploading one about Xi having a small, orange mushroom shaped dick standing in downtown Beijing. You will be put in the back of an unmarked van and have your nuts wired to a car battery before you can say sweet and sour pork. 

If you like it so much then fuck off and live there.

You Goatish pox-marked Codpiece.

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Two days ago, three epidemiologists (Harvard, Stanford and Oxford) released a statement about how bad current Covid policies are.
Since it's release, 6,000 medical professionals (MDs, PhDs, etc) have added their names to it.
 

Great Barrington Declaration

 

"As infectious disease epidemiologists and public health scientists we have grave concerns about the damaging physical and mental health impacts of the prevailing COVID-19 policies"

 

 

***
I realize you guys all disagree with me (and mostly resort to name calling)
I'll also accept, I don't always articulate points well, no question - I'm human.
 

But, at a certain point, the body of evidence building against current lockdown policies, becomes overwhelming.

An age targeted approach is called for here. 

You have some of the smartest names in science openly calling for it.
Why don't we consider it?


Currently, we're trying to put out a raging forrest fire with a nuclear bomb.
 

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24 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

But, at a certain point, the body of evidence building against current lockdown policies, becomes overwhelming.


Guess it depends upon how much you value the life of your countrymen and women, and how you roundly reject the wankers insisting on a bullshit premise of freedom. A notion reinforced by a lily livered President who is obsessed with his own re-election and nothing else.

 

In New Zealand, from Jan 3 to 3:07pm CEST, 6 October 2020, there have been 1,502 confirmed cases of COVID-19 with 25 deaths

 

New Zealand Situation

DailyWeekly
1,502confirmed cases
Jan 31Feb 29Mar 31Apr 30May 31Jun 30Jul 31Aug 31Sep 30020406080
25deaths
Source:World Health Organization
Jan 31Feb 29Mar 31Apr 30May 31Jun 30Jul 31Aug 31Sep 3001234

 

New Zealand Situation

DailyWeekly
1,502confirmed cases
Jan 31Feb 29Mar 31Apr 30May 31Jun 30Jul 31Aug 31Sep 30020406080
25deaths
Source:World Health Organization
Jan 31Feb 29Mar 31Apr 30May 31Jun 30Jul 31Aug 31Sep 3001234
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9 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

Guess it depends upon how much you value the life of your countrymen and women, and how you roundly reject the wankers insisting on a bullshit premise of freedom. A notion reinforced by a lily livered President who is obsessed with his own re-election and nothing else.

 

In New Zealand, from Jan 3 to 3:07pm CEST, 6 October 2020, there have been 1,502 confirmed cases of COVID-19 with 25 deaths

 

New Zealand Situation

 
DailyWeekly
1,502confirmed cases
Jan 31Feb 29Mar 31Apr 30May 31Jun 30Jul 31Aug 31Sep 30020406080
25deaths
Source:World Health Organization
Jan 31Feb 29Mar 31Apr 30May 31Jun 30Jul 31Aug 31Sep 3001234

 

New Zealand Situation

 
DailyWeekly
1,502confirmed cases
Jan 31Feb 29Mar 31Apr 30May 31Jun 30Jul 31Aug 31Sep 30020406080
25deaths
Source:World Health Organization
Jan 31Feb 29Mar 31Apr 30May 31Jun 30Jul 31Aug 31Sep 3001234

So I assume you feel each life is of some  figure that can never be thought of. Better get hold of the NZ transport folk, they have a number they work on. Tell them to up. Also Pharmac, they work on a value of life. Give them a call and tell them to just fund it all.

Also hand over all your cash to help save every life that you seem to deem so important. Or is that a little to far for you. Safe in your life, no worries, all set up. Just don't ask me to fund the cost.

 

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11 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

No, there are many other very good reasons for using an "escort out of the premises" policy.

Can understand to much to drink and knocking over tables,but spreading shit? Anyone dumb enough to fall for the crap deserves whatever happens. 

Covid is not a black and white issue, despite how many seem to view it. I am happy to listen, and reject, various points of view. There is an ignore function available without Clean telling me what I should be exposed to.

My leader tells me to 'be kind' as if I am a child, then does the opposite. Anarchy should allow us to at least pretend we are grownups. Fuck the time out for unsettling people's sensitivity. Bunch of soft cocks.

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7 minutes ago, Gissie said:

So I assume you feel each life is of some  figure that can never be thought of. Better get hold of the NZ transport folk, they have a number they work on. Tell them to up. Also Pharmac, they work on a value of life. Give them a call and tell them to just fund it all.

Also hand over all your cash to help save every life that you seem to deem so important. Or is that a little to far for you. Safe in your life, no worries, all set up. Just don't ask me to fund the cost.

 

Agree that this is going to cost and certainly I have concerns about just where the money is going to come from for some of the pixie dust promises that have been made but that is not really the question here.

What sort of attrition is acceptable?  I am certainly disgusted at Donnies ambivalent it is what it is approach  and a nation that cannot function normally because of idiots.

Most people in the US are one car crash or one bad medical event away from living in a car or less on the street before Covid.

Should a life become a commercial decision ever?

Pharmac for those reading outside NZ fund most of the drugs for our national medical needs however there are the outliers and rare cases usually in the realms of a rare cancer that are not cost effective to fund.

Equally NZ transport and yes they have figures that are based upon Road Deaths.

However we are talking about a virus that if allowed to run rampant would affect a significant portion of a relatively small population whilst I do not agree with everything this current Labour Govt has done, I do agree with their approach in this case.

Protecting a population that can help trade out of the costs incurred by contributing hopefully a little more than the 750 bucks a couple of years of Donnies taxes will help go a long way.

I am in business and I have not sought Govt handouts like some nevertheless things are tough as they are in most parts of the world.

If I had all the answers  I would be in a much better place but this is a world wide problem and I am thankful everyday that I can enjoy a freedom that many countries right now can only dream about.

I wonder how much some of those taxpayers would be prepared to pay to enjoy that same freedom.

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On 9/14/2020 at 11:40 PM, MR.CLEAN said:

I just banned BlatantEcho until 10/1 for posting fake information about COVID. I'm not sure why he wants people to die while he takes advantage of the the pandemic to take a low-cost sex tourism trip through eastern europe, but it doesn't matter.

Anyone else who posts pretend science from history professors, pretend epidemiology from demon sperm docs or stem cell promoters, or posts monday morning numbers over and over again to try to prove that the we are 'rounding the corner'  is going to get the boot for at least a few weeks.  If it looks like you are deliberately trying to get people to stop protecting themselves or others, longer.

 

That's an excellent start.  Well done, but he is allowed back?  I know people who have been perma-banned for no reason supplied.

So you ban people for posting misinformation about COVID-19, but those who have repeatedly posted misinformation about subjects that threaten human life on earth ... that could kill us all, are allowed to post as much as they like?

Mmmmm

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10 minutes ago, astro said:

I know people who have been perma-banned for no reason supplied.

 

Randumb - you were so fucking stupid that providing a reason was considered completely pointless - much like you.

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1 minute ago, Dark Cloud said:

Randumb - you were so fucking stupid that providing a reason was considered completely pointless - much like you.

OblongInconsequentialConure-size_restric

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