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Dimension Polyant Aramid Sport


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There are a couple of Corsair trimarans at our club that have sails made from this fabric.  Shape looks good, no problems that I'm aware of.  But your question is a bit vague...  What kind of boat do you want to use it on?

 

119104011_10223736554984510_5686755276189389031_n.jpg

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2 minutes ago, gbkersey said:

There are a couple of Corsair trimarans at our club that have sails made from this fabric.  Shape looks good, no problems that I'm aware of.  But your question is a bit vague...  What kind of boat do you want to use it on?

I sail a Sun Fasy 32i, a displacement monohull just over 31ft.

I will switch from foil and furler to hanks for shorthanded racing and I need new headsails. My sailmaker suggested this, in 2 different weights, as it stands better flogging and rougher handling, which comes with single and doublehanding. It comes at 5.9 and 6.6oz, so slightly heavier than other options, but it seems promising...on paper.

I wonder if anyone can confirm it or had any problems with creep, elongation, and so on.

 

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Intro'd as a budget alternative to GPL, so there's the fact it's less expensive than GPL going for it.  But it's also not nearly as strong or light a product...  GPL's been around for many years, why mess with success?

We had GPL main and genoa on a previous boat, after four years of limited shorthanded racing use the cloth was still in excellent condition.  I've seen heavily used GPL that age that didn't look much worse.  On the other hand, I've seen a two year old Aramid Sport genoa off a J/35 that I wasn't particularly impressed with the shape or wear of the cloth.

Just my opinion...

Cheers!

 

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Sounds like a little confusion on this thread - 

The original style - GPL & GPL Lite Skin - Technora x/y scrim with Carbon warp inserts

Carbon Sport - This style uses a Black Polyester x/y scrim with Carbon warp inserts.  Yes more economical than GPL and more suitable for inshore racing.

* the above 2 styles are available in a film/film version or with Lite Skin exterior (covering the film)

Aramid Sport is an all Aramid product (no carbon fiber) with Lite Skin on both sides

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My sailmaker says that the price of Aramid has gone up so much to make it not much cheaper than carbon and not really worth using any more. At least that was his argument for getting our class to allow carbon jibs.

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4 hours ago, TDalbora said:

Sounds like a little confusion on this thread - 

The original style - GPL & GPL Lite Skin - Technora x/y scrim with Carbon warp inserts

Carbon Sport - This style uses a Black Polyester x/y scrim with Carbon warp inserts.  Yes more economical than GPL and more suitable for inshore racing.

* the above 2 styles are available in a film/film version or with Lite Skin exterior (covering the film)

Aramid Sport is an all Aramid product (no carbon fiber) with Lite Skin on both sides

Oopsy, Tom's right, I was thinking Carbon Sport not Aramid Sport.  My bad...

Cheers!

 

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Yeah, it is a bit confusing as Aramid Sport is a relatively new product. The usual downside with aramid fibers is that they degrade very fast with UV exposition. However by being enclosed in Light Skin layers they should be protected.

My sailmaker says that it should be a better option for shorthanded racing, especially off-shore where it may be subject to rough handling, flogging and so on. 

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There's actually a fair bit of UV protection in the laminate including the outside layer of the Lite Skin. The inserts tend to be more forgiving with flex and folding that the older scrim based styles we made 15-20 years ago.  This is the same for the carbon inserts .. very durable.  You get a little more stretch in the primary, but overall a more durable product.  

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16 hours ago, TDalbora said:

Sounds like a little confusion on this thread - 

The original style - GPL & GPL Lite Skin - Technora x/y scrim with Carbon warp inserts

Carbon Sport - This style uses a Black Polyester x/y scrim with Carbon warp inserts.  Yes more economical than GPL and more suitable for inshore racing.

* the above 2 styles are available in a film/film version or with Lite Skin exterior (covering the film)

Aramid Sport has a polyester base and Aramid inserts (no carbon fiber) with Lite Skin on both sides

 

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On 9/14/2020 at 12:39 PM, VeloceSailing said:

Hi there,

anyone who has tried out Dimension Polyant's relatively new fabric "Aramid Sport"?

https://www.dimension-polyant.com/portfolio/aramid-sport/?lang=en

 

Opinions?

 

Whats the price difference to Carbon Sport, GPL, or a proper membrane?  Stepping over dollars to save pennies most likely.

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I can't comment on the membrane prices, but GPL is the most expensive.  Carbon Sport & Aramid Sport are about the same prices - maybe about 35% less than the GPL styles.  Construction costs on all three fabrics would be about the same.

When Carbon Sport was developed, we were thinking that there were some applications where the low stretch of carbon was great, but the GPL styles were overkill.  I have a friend with a Laser 28 - all inshore racing.  GPL would make really fine sails, but Carbon Sport is also up to the task with some savings.  Now a 40' offshore boat that tends to reef & do more blue water sailing might be a better candidate for GPL.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Bad Andy said:

Whats the price difference to Carbon Sport, GPL, or a proper membrane?  Stepping over dollars to save pennies most likely.

From my recent experience, GPL is about the same price as a membrane string sail, maybe a hair less but close enough that most sailmakers will push you to a membrane string sail.  CArbon sport is about 20% less than GPL and Aramid sport was actually more than carbon sport.  Most likely due to volume pricing on CS material vs special run of the Aramid sport.  There are lots of variables that factor into sail prices but these examples are from the same sailmaker so there is a somewhat apples to apples comparison.  

 

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5 hours ago, Bad Andy said:

Whats the price difference to Carbon Sport, GPL, or a proper membrane?  Stepping over dollars to save pennies most likely.

I did not request an offer for membrane, however I happened to see some pricing.

A mainsail in Aramid Sport is about 70% of the same mainsail in membrane with the same sailmaker. As a main has more labor into it, I assume that a headsail would have a slightly higher price difference. No idea about GPL, however I was discouraged by the sailmaker to consider Carbon Sport, in spite of a price just a tad higher

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Remember that Aramid has FOUR problems not just one:

1) UV sensitivity, as already mentioned.

2) Absorbs water aggressively. This is why Kevlar hulls were such a horribly bad idea.

3) Aramid shrinks after being under load. This damages the shape and structure (attachment of filaments to skins). GPL sails last forever perhaps due to this giant advantage of carbon over aramid.

4) Aramid is much heavier sail, compared to carbon. Much heavier.

So I went with GPL lite skin. Price difference was insignificant in the grand scheme of things, much lighter and therefore easier to handle sails, perfect shape, and they last much longer, based on actual experience and not brochure claims.

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52 minutes ago, VeloceSailing said:

I did not request an offer for membrane, however I happened to see some pricing.

A mainsail in Aramid Sport is about 70% of the same mainsail in membrane with the same sailmaker. As a main has more labor into it, I assume that a headsail would have a slightly higher price difference. No idea about GPL, however I was discouraged by the sailmaker to consider Carbon Sport, in spite of a price just a tad higher

Interesting, unless you plan to abuse your sails the carbon will be better.  I'd usually only go with an Aramid sail for headsails that are going to get abused.  Otherwise the price difference is so small to Carbon that its a no brainier.  That being said as long as they have decent membranes they're always going to be a far better sail in the long run if made right.

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1 hour ago, T sailor said:

From my recent experience, GPL is about the same price as a membrane string sail, maybe a hair less but close enough that most sailmakers will push you to a membrane string sail.  CArbon sport is about 20% less than GPL and Aramid sport was actually more than carbon sport.  Most likely due to volume pricing on CS material vs special run of the Aramid sport.  There are lots of variables that factor into sail prices but these examples are from the same sailmaker so there is a somewhat apples to apples comparison.  

 

That's my experience as well.  GPL can make a great sail but a membrane made right will be better any day of the week.  There is a large step up from Carbon Sport to GPL or membrane that is usually worth it unless you are at the edge of your budget.

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36 minutes ago, storosis said:

I have an aramid sport lite skin heavy Genoa on my 36ft boat.
The material is good but is heavy compare to film option.
For heavy sails and offshore sailing is good, when the extra weight is not a real issue.

Thanks!

 

If I take the largest genoa on my 32 footer displacing over 4.2 tons, the area is about 29 square meters.

The lightest Aramid Sport, called AS06 weighs 5.9 sm-oz, which is about 253,7 gr/sqm > about 7.34 kg

A suitable GPL GraphX for that area and deplacement is the GPL05 at about 4,4 sm-oz, or 75% of AS06, for a total sailcloth of 5.06 kg

The appropriate Carbon Sport cloth is CS10 at 5.3 sm-oz means sailcloth for 6.59 kg.

 

The latter was really discourage, it is only marginally lighter and slightly more expensive than Aramid Sport, so that is excluded.

GPL looks like a great option, but considering that clew, hanks, luffrope, seams weigh the same on all options (and are not in the calculation above) the 2.28 kg extra on the aramid sport may be worth in durability (I race solo/shorthanded, inshore/offshore), provided form stability is the same and the "light skin" keeps water away from the aramid fibers. Anyone who noticed creep, elongation or other such behaviors?

Another aspect is that, given the price I have on hand and being aramid sport at 30% lower price than GPL GraphX, those 2.28 kg cost 830 USD each :blink: 

 

 

 

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I am

22 hours ago, VeloceSailing said:

Thanks!

 

If I take the largest genoa on my 32 footer displacing over 4.2 tons, the area is about 29 square meters.

The lightest Aramid Sport, called AS06 weighs 5.9 sm-oz, which is about 253,7 gr/sqm > about 7.34 kg

A suitable GPL GraphX for that area and deplacement is the GPL05 at about 4,4 sm-oz, or 75% of AS06, for a total sailcloth of 5.06 kg

The appropriate Carbon Sport cloth is CS10 at 5.3 sm-oz means sailcloth for 6.59 kg.

 

The latter was really discourage, it is only marginally lighter and slightly more expensive than Aramid Sport, so that is excluded.

GPL looks like a great option, but considering that clew, hanks, luffrope, seams weigh the same on all options (and are not in the calculation above) the 2.28 kg extra on the aramid sport may be worth in durability (I race solo/shorthanded, inshore/offshore), provided form stability is the same and the "light skin" keeps water away from the aramid fibers. Anyone who noticed creep, elongation or other such behaviors?

Another aspect is that, given the price I have on hand and being aramid sport at 30% lower price than GPL GraphX, those 2.28 kg cost 830 USD each :blink: 

 

 

 

I am great fun of DP FLEX sailcloth there is a new version of it (they call it FLEX Sport)  which is worth to check it
It's a technora cross cut material which suits best boats up to 35ft.
There is no stitching between panels just clue giving a very smooth sail.
Finaly cost less because needs less labor and less cloth for the same size of sail compare to a radial.
Its not a string sail but its the next best think, assuming that will cost significantly less than the Aramid Sport

dp_Produktflyer_Flex_Sport_E_Web_rz.pdf

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  • 10 months later...

Is there any updates from anyone on this post?

I am contemplating replacing my 36.7 main with a Radial Cut, Aramid Sport Lite Skin from DP.

It's going into a boom-bag, for club racing and some cruising.

I don't want a "hardcore racing sail", I just want a fair sail with a healthy race and cruise life. I'm racing against Melges 32s and Foundation 36s and obviously no material is going to get me to the front of the fleet.

My membrane headsail has already begun delaminating despite not being that old, so I am a hesitant to go that exotic.

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its fucking ridiculous. when i went to get a 100% jib the range of possibilities forced me to create a spreadsheet of names, variants, weights, constructions, applications, characteristics and costs etc. the amount of internet research required was sort of silly.

on the plus side all the salesmen / women were helpful, informative & hard workers.

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There’s no doubt that sailcloth options can be confusing – there’s many different styles on the market with different performance, weight, and durability characteristics.  We can’t forget about price points as well –

 

The sailmakers have a difficult job trying to size up your requirements quickly.   How do you use the boat?  What are your expectations for the life of the sail?  What is your normal sail replacement schedule?  While there are no magic bullets – most sailmakers can make a determination and provide you with 1, 2 or 3 accurate quotes.

 

I saw on a post that someone actually takes the time to make a chart of the different styles.  While this may sound extreme, it’s actually a smart way to look at things in a matrix form.  I’ve been selling sailcloth for 29 years and I still go through this exercise when customers are trying to look for the correct options for a boat owner.

 

I saw a question about Aramid Sport above – We have not sold any of this style domestically in the USA (yet), but Lite Skin products tend to age more gracefully than the older film/film styles.  This does come with a weight gain – the overall sail weight will be heavier.  My current mainsail on my boat (First 36.7) is GPL14 LS / GPL10 LS.  Its several pounds heavier than my older GPL14 (film/film) sail, but much lighter and lower stretch than my Dacron cruising mainsail.  I don’t tend to think about the weight all that much until my wife & I have to flake the darn thing on the boom! 

 

Tom D’Albora

Dimension Polyant USA

 

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2 hours ago, TDalbora said:

There’s no doubt that sailcloth options can be confusing – there’s many different styles on the market with different performance, weight, and durability characteristics.  We can’t forget about price points as well –

 

The sailmakers have a difficult job trying to size up your requirements quickly.   How do you use the boat?  What are your expectations for the life of the sail?  What is your normal sail replacement schedule?  While there are no magic bullets – most sailmakers can make a determination and provide you with 1, 2 or 3 accurate quotes.

 

I saw on a post that someone actually takes the time to make a chart of the different styles.  While this may sound extreme, it’s actually a smart way to look at things in a matrix form.  I’ve been selling sailcloth for 29 years and I still go through this exercise when customers are trying to look for the correct options for a boat owner.

 

I saw a question about Aramid Sport above – We have not sold any of this style domestically in the USA (yet), but Lite Skin products tend to age more gracefully than the older film/film styles.  This does come with a weight gain – the overall sail weight will be heavier.  My current mainsail on my boat (First 36.7) is GPL14 LS / GPL10 LS.  Its several pounds heavier than my older GPL14 (film/film) sail, but much lighter and lower stretch than my Dacron cruising mainsail.  I don’t tend to think about the weight all that much until my wife & I have to flake the darn thing on the boom! 

 

Tom D’Albora

Dimension Polyant USA

 

Thanks for the reply Tom.

Really, I am looking for a sail which is lighter than Dacron but has a decent racing life.

I don't find for me or my 36.7 a set of 15k 3DI sails to be worth it at all, nor a 3k set of cross cut Dacron sails to be worth it.

Once I was suggested a few alternatives I looked into it and honestly the marketing gibberish is just absurd. As Parma said there are too many options and after talking to 5 different sail makers I had about 10 sails priced up, none used the same material for a single quote, so I wasn't even comparing like for like.

Eventually I called the DP rep in Aus after the Aramid Sport was suggested as a possibility and he concurred, along with CROSS CUT, not even radial cut which the sailmaker suggested. 

It sounds like a go... but it also sounds like I'll be the first of this kind of boat here to get it (also a 36.7). So it's a bit hard to commit at the moment, I have no points of reference and have no idea if it's worth the extra money to Radial-cut over Cross-cut.

Hell, it's 30% less than the GPL, which looks excellent... but maybe not as suitable for me. I'm more on the club race side than the Grand Prix side of racing here.

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I’m sure we could come up with 10+ options for a boat in the 35’ range – Most sailmakers want to build you a good sail and most of them also have a comfort zone using certain fabrics on particular applications. 

 

Radial – loads are lined up a bit better and the strong threadline (fabric warp) is on the best load path.  Sailcloth manufactures (like us) can make these fabrics a bit lighter.  That’s the good news.  The bad news – more cloth waste as the sailcloth is cut into smaller sections.  More seams = more labor.

 

Cross-Cut – We’ve had a product called FLEX for many years.  The fabric tends to be a bit heavier and more costly, but there is far less fabric waste, less seams, and lower labor costs in construction.  We have a new product called FLEX Sport or FLEX LS.  This is an all aramid product with Lite Skin on both sides.   I think the FLEX styles make nice sails for mainsail & #3 applications.  I think I’d rather have a radial sail in an overlapping genoa, but that’s just my opinion. 

 

Shoot me an email at tom.dalbora@dimension-polyant.com and I’ll do a small matrix for you so you can compare things.  Again – no magic bullets, but we should be able to find an option that will mesh with your expectations. 

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We're pretty happy with our Carbon Sport with Liteskin mainsail - it's a bit stiff when flaking, but trims well and really holds it's shape.

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  • 2 months later...
On 7/20/2021 at 12:59 AM, Whoa Nelly said:

Is there any updates from anyone on this post?

I am contemplating replacing my 36.7 main with a Radial Cut, Aramid Sport Lite Skin from DP.

It's going into a boom-bag, for club racing and some cruising.

I don't want a "hardcore racing sail", I just want a fair sail with a healthy race and cruise life. I'm racing against Melges 32s and Foundation 36s and obviously no material is going to get me to the front of the fleet.

My membrane headsail has already begun delaminating despite not being that old, so I am a hesitant to go that exotic.

 

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So what main sail did you put on your First 36.7?  I am in Nuevo Vallarta Mx and we also have tropical weather here. I was told laminate sails don’t hold up in the tropical weather. I need a new main for club racing and cruising 

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why has carbon as a material stayed at a very high cost per pound ?

as more is produced and used in stuff like bikes fishing rods general sports stuff ect

the cost does not look to be dropping much over time

sure the labor and molds ect add costs esp with sails

but there looks to be very little progress in bringing down the costs of the materials

be it used in a mast , cloth for a hull or hatch or sail material

raw carbon is very very cheap and eazy to get in large quantity

is the process of turning raw carbon into usable fibers that costly or complex ?

or are there a limited amounts produced ?

are there new better cheaper ways being developed to make CF ?

 

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On my 36.7 - mainsail is GPL14 Lite Skin / GPL10 Lite Skin.  4 full seasons of sailing and still looks pretty darn good.  Regarding prices - all this stuff is a moving target just now.  The internal Technora x/y scrim is very expensive and those prices have escalated over the past few years.  Depending on your sailing, maybe get very good results using the Carbon Sport in these sails - these styles have reduced fabric costs.

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18 hours ago, nota said:

why has carbon as a material stayed at a very high cost per pound ?

as more is produced and used in stuff like bikes fishing rods general sports stuff ect

the cost does not look to be dropping much over time

sure the labor and molds ect add costs esp with sails

but there looks to be very little progress in bringing down the costs of the materials

be it used in a mast , cloth for a hull or hatch or sail material

raw carbon is very very cheap and eazy to get in large quantity

is the process of turning raw carbon into usable fibers that costly or complex ?

or are there a limited amounts produced ?

are there new better cheaper ways being developed to make CF ?

 

I think the issue is that CF producers are cautious about flooding the market with product. Back in like 2005 or so there was actually a pretty big shortage of CF which essentially double its price. So the notion that as more things are made out of CF, the cheaper CF will become.
There are different grades of CF with the higher end fiber being stiffer, more brittle and the lower end fibers being more compliant. All has to due with the temperature it is cooked at and the duration of the process. Top end CF is very, very black in color while lower end CF may appears slightly brown under a bright light source in its raw state.
Way back when, when CF was first developed, it was sort of accidental. There was a need to clean out crude/bulk oil carriers. The sludge, which IIRC was referred to as Panex, was super heated, burned at like several thousand degrees Celsius. The result or goal was to burn off the hydrocarbons with the byproduct being carbon shards. So to get rid of the residual carbon shards, some industrious folks started spinning it into fibers and making different gauge tows out of it. It sold rather cheaply until other industrious people started to realize it could be used for all sorts of manufacturing project/processes.
As for a cheaper or more better ways to make CF. My understanding is they have move on from using Panex>Carbon Fiber. That now a days they bake Rayon to burn off the hydrocarbons and the resultant is modern Carbon Fiber.

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18 hours ago, Parma said:

Wait...are you saying ...what are you saying?

whatareyousaying.jpg.314d7f9efbc7b7e89e4704958322739a.jpg

lots of promise but very high cost for such a cheap common material as carbon

predictions of DIAMOND strong fibers or nano tubes of carbon and films to coat with diamonds have been slow to become  useful in the real world and costs are not dropping for the carbon fibers we do have available

those are strong but not as strong as the nano tube diamond bonds hipped but unseen outside the labs  

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Okay, I get you now. For a minute there it sounded like you were wondering why the cost of CF sails was not falling over time. (But that would be nice: remember when a 36" flat screen TV was $4,000?)

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On 10/15/2021 at 9:33 PM, TDalbora said:

On my 36.7 - mainsail is GPL14 Lite Skin / GPL10 Lite Skin.  4 full seasons of sailing and still looks pretty darn good.  Regarding prices - all this stuff is a moving target just now.  The internal Technora x/y scrim is very expensive and those prices have escalated over the past few years.  Depending on your sailing, maybe get very good results using the Carbon Sport in these sails - these styles have reduced fabric costs.

Tom, out of curiosity, what percentage does the cost of materials contribute to the cost of a sail? I would think between the design and R&D costs, the sales commissions, the labor and the material landing costs (shipping), the actual sail cloth would be a relatively small contributor to the overall cost of that nifty new main... 

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WITH COMMON DACRON

eazy to add the sq yards with a factor for waste

fittings and bits rope headboard slugs ect maybe 20 to 25%  I guess

then labor machines rent ads ins to the SHOPS  real world costs ect

with the nobody sells raw  laminated sail materials RETAIL who knows

or the costs of most glue string ect OR MOLDS

 

how much BIG GUYS race rent an PRO SAILING  experts factor into advertising cost promotion  COSTS

IS THE BIG UNKNOWN

 

and one wonders how much a non racer benefits from the costs of newest fastest race tricks far too many of which look to be very temporary and fade fast

vs a sail that lasts longer with retained usable shape not just for one race series or season

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8 hours ago, George Dewey said:

Tom, out of curiosity, what percentage does the cost of materials contribute to the cost of a sail? I would think between the design and R&D costs, the sales commissions, the labor and the material landing costs (shipping), the actual sail cloth would be a relatively small contributor to the overall cost of that nifty new main... 

This might be a better question for a sailmaker, but we might guess 25% to 30%.

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A good deal of the cost depends on sail type. Butch Ulmer used to say he made next to nothing on mains and spinnakers had the most profitable. Had to do with the amount of finishing work.

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On 10/15/2021 at 10:25 PM, Jazzy2 said:

So what main sail did you put on your First 36.7?  I am in Nuevo Vallarta Mx and we also have tropical weather here. I was told laminate sails don’t hold up in the tropical weather. I need a new main for club racing and cruising 

I went with a Flex LS main.

I liked it so much I have ordered a Flex LS number 3.

I like the volume of Aramid material in the sail and how it's laid out, which leads me to think it'll be a durable sail for my use. I don't mind it being slightly heavier than far more expensive materials. And of course cost, it was between 50-75% the cost of competing sails.

I race PHS, so if I am 2 seconds a mile slower it doesn't matter, and I am far happier spending $2k a year on sails instead of $6k a year on fancy string sails. They also feel bulletproof to me. Much more "hardy" than my old laminate sails.

I wouldn't use the cross cut for overlapping sails. But on the high aspect main and 95% headdy I am happy.

Tom above was very helpful. It was easy to choose the couple products he suggested over competing products, the challenge was choosing between the couple different options he suggested. I believe they are fairly priced products after reading through all the technical information provided.

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Thanks for this.  The new FLEX LS did exceed my expectations after I saw a few sails.  We did beef up the fill and the stretch numbers do look good on each of the 3 weights we have produced.  A good friend of mine did a small R/F blade on his C&C 99 .. still looks new after 2 years.

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On 10/17/2021 at 1:06 AM, Parma said:

Okay, I get you now. For a minute there it sounded like you were wondering why the cost of CF sails was not falling over time. (But that would be nice: remember when a 36" flat screen TV was $4,000?)

Rayon is a fiber from regenerated cellulose, generally derived from wood pulp. Rayon is usually made from eucalyptus trees, but any plant can be used (such as bamboo, soy, cotton, etc). To produce the fiber, the plant cellulose goes through a process involving a lot of chemicals, energy and water.
 
I THOUGHT RAYON WAS FROM OIL
but it grows
 

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