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Wind Instruments for rotating mast


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Depending upon your CPU and whether you need serial input or not, you owe yourself a visit to the Honeywell website to look at their non-contact position sensors.  These are being used in many newer high end builds and once you see what they have to offer, the accuracy of these sensors, the reliability and the fact that you only calibrate once you may never look back at what the marine market has to offer for position sensors.  Here is one option...

https://sensing.honeywell.com/sensors/smart-position-sensors/arc

 

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6 hours ago, soma said:

We'd debated mounting a gyrocompass inside a mast and use the difference between the mast's heading and the boat's heading. Less room for error, but more $$$ presumably.

I've actually been wondering if I could do this with my B&G system.

Usually, B&G wants you to use a rudder feedback sensor, but that means it needs a mechanical connection to the mast... which sucks for many reasons.

Would my B&G accept one of their small compass sensors as the input instead, comparing it to the primary heading compass...

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23 hours ago, Floating Duck said:

I've actually been wondering if I could do this with my B&G system.

Usually, B&G wants you to use a rudder feedback sensor, but that means it needs a mechanical connection to the mast... which sucks for many reasons.

Would my B&G accept one of their small compass sensors as the input instead, comparing it to the primary heading compass...

B&G need a hercules H5000 system to do the calculations. You can use a stringpot or other sensing device to get the reading. The whole thing is a pain though

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Silva/Nexus used a compass mounted on the mast - you needed 2 compass units (one boat one mast)
 

B&G uses a 'rudder' sensor - make sure you get the right unit! and a mechanical link.
we have it on Buzz using kite surfer line and superglue to stop it slipping.
 

IMG_7045.jpg

IMG_7046.jpg

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On 9/16/2020 at 7:19 PM, trackday said:

Depending upon your CPU and whether you need serial input or not, you owe yourself a visit to the Honeywell website to look at their non-contact position sensors.  These are being used in many newer high end builds and once you see what they have to offer, the accuracy of these sensors, the reliability and the fact that you only calibrate once you may never look back at what the marine market has to offer for position sensors.  Here is one option...

https://sensing.honeywell.com/sensors/smart-position-sensors/arc

 

I use the Honeywell sensor on my rotating mast

http://f32thriller.blogspot.com/2019/05/rotating-mast-windsensor.html

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been asked where we got the 'string top' sensor - it is a B&G rudder unit ; removed the arm and had the 'string top' machined out of derilin plastic to same diameter

- i wish i could take all the credit for the clever stuff on Buzz, but it is down to my eldest son pete (yacht designer, whiz kid and designer of Hugo Boss IMOCA60) and Scotty Cavanough (rigger extraordinaire)

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On 9/17/2020 at 12:19 AM, trackday said:

Depending upon your CPU and whether you need serial input or not, you owe yourself a visit to the Honeywell website to look at their non-contact position sensors.  These are being used in many newer high end builds and once you see what they have to offer, the accuracy of these sensors, the reliability and the fact that you only calibrate once you may never look back at what the marine market has to offer for position sensors.  Here is one option...

https://sensing.honeywell.com/sensors/smart-position-sensors/arc

 

Does this work with B&G instruments ? Looks like the perfect solution to me .

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4 hours ago, Paul Koch said:

What brand of instruments are you using ?

Paul I use a LCJcapteurs CV7 see link, the advantage is the box can be connected to N2K bus the angle of 100 grade may be a bit to small a beter option is the 180 sensor but I don't know of LCJ is selling them. I the begin they sold them separately sensor and CV7 so I did buy the the sensor some were els.

I use Raymarine instrument but that does not matter You can use every instrument with N2K

 https://lcjcapteurs.com/en/girouette-anemometres-capteur-vent/cv7-rm-smart100-2/

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8 hours ago, Paul Koch said:

Does this work with B&G instruments ? Looks like the perfect solution to me .

Hi Paul, the Honeywell systems can be purchased  to work with N2K or analog systems.   The beauty is you should only have to calibrate the sensor once including restepping the mast.   No more string pot calibration or mechanical tiller sensor failure from, leaking, getting stepped upon or ripped off the deck. 
For a new project I am working on, I am planning  of using these rotation sensors for rudder position and autopilot.   The question is whether to head down the Madintec/ Mad Brain/ Bravo route or go with a FaRo sailing systems    

M.

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  • 5 months later...

Great thread.  All of our cruising friends were hating on the mast rotation sensor/correction issues for wind data and left us with the impression that for any reasonable budget it just wasn't doable in a reliable fashion.  Most of them had given up.  For this thread it sounds like maybe there is hope.

Great timing as I am about to install wind instruments on our tri but our plan to avoid that mess was to put them on the end of the sprit.  No need for mast rotation correction and easy to service and repair the unit.  Now as to how well its going to survive in that location... time will tell!

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I’ve used the Honeywell. It worked well. As for hooking up to Hydra...don’t know. I calibrated it via WTP3 and Deckman. It just outputs a voltage so I needed to assign degrees of rotation to the output voltage manually in Deckman. 

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

Great thread.  All of our cruising friends were hating on the mast rotation sensor/correction issues for wind data and left us with the impression that for any reasonable budget it just wasn't doable in a reliable fashion.  Most of them had given up.  For this thread it sounds like maybe there is hope.

Great timing as I am about to install wind instruments on our tri but our plan to avoid that mess was to put them on the end of the sprit.  No need for mast rotation correction and easy to service and repair the unit.  Now as to how well its going to survive in that location... time will tell!

Yeah mine would be gone on the first big upwind beat in swell.... 

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3 hours ago, PIL66 - XL2 said:

Yeah mine would be gone on the first big upwind beat in swell.... 

Yea I am curious to see how long this lasts LOL. We are cruising, not racing and I am supposed to reef anytime we get over 10 knots SOG. That said last week we went out for a winter sail and hit 20 knots sustained and the wife didn’t complain....

 

 

 

 

too much....

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43 minutes ago, cprinos said:

Check eBay... there were several listed at $95 when I got mine (I probably should have bought a few to resell :) )

 

Thanks , found one on ebay , hopefully it will actually arrive unlike the last one I ordered from a scammer in Hong Kong . Dont touch  www.ocean-components.com  

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On 9/16/2020 at 3:00 PM, Floating Duck said:

I've actually been wondering if I could do this with my B&G system.

Usually, B&G wants you to use a rudder feedback sensor, but that means it needs a mechanical connection to the mast... which sucks for many reasons.

Would my B&G accept one of their small compass sensors as the input instead, comparing it to the primary heading compass...

That’s what Tactick uses and I have NEVER got it to work.

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11 hours ago, gurok said:

Yes, I use it with an H5000 Hercules installation on Freshly squeezed

 

I sourced mine here - https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Honeywell/SPS-A100D-HAWS?qs=VPR2Pdj9HgAzdLnn7pUFgg%3D%3D

 

29EA6787-557E-459A-AAEE-3E237B8A1679.jpeg

I see that you put the sensor different as in mentioned in the manual, does it work ok this way?

I place mine  like this as in the manual

 image.png.f05765559ba2d916e2463883fe83b2f3.png

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2 hours ago, jdazey said:

That looks nice and tidy. Accurate?

Yes, seems to be. We made sure that the magnet component remained at the same distance (height) from the sensor throughout the whole of the arc of travel. We scribed a large protractor out on a flat bit of ply to check our results and it does seem very accurate.

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1 hour ago, mowgli said:

I see that you put the sensor different as in mentioned in the manual, does it work ok this way?

I place mine  like this as in the manual

 image.png.f05765559ba2d916e2463883fe83b2f3.png

Yes, it works very well in that orientation.

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Just had a (impractical) thought.

Have a small diameter carbon rod inside the mast, affixed to the top of the pivot point. It goes all the way to the top, exits out thru a loosish bearing, and the wind sensor sits on top of it. The rod does not rotate as the mast rotates around it.

Yeah, I know it would potentially bind up as the mast loads up and bends etc etc. Just a thought experiment.

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5 hours ago, Zonker said:

Just had a (impractical) thought.

Have a small diameter carbon rod inside the mast, affixed to the top of the pivot point. It goes all the way to the top, exits out thru a loosish bearing, and the wind sensor sits on top of it. The rod does not rotate as the mast rotates around it.

Yeah, I know it would potentially bind up as the mast loads up and bends etc etc. Just a thought experiment.

Interesting idea.

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Maybe for a smaller boat. For a 15m mast... I don't think I'd get accurate results. The rod would probably bind on a halyard and twist as the mast rotated etc etc.

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

Maybe for a smaller boat. For a 15m mast... I don't think I'd get accurate results. The rod would probably bind on a halyard and twist as the mast rotated etc etc.

Or start to get a lot of friction. We put a lot of bend in out mast with downhaul

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I got my sensor from Mouser.ca.

I am assuming i connect it to the analog input.

Can you help me to set up mast rotation on my WS310, H5000 Hydra and Zeus 3S? 

I have an analog mast sensor. (Honeywell smart position sensor SPS-A100D-HAMS).

It has-

Sensing range of 100°.

Output voltage: .5Vdc to 4.5Vdc. (10% to 90% of 5Vdc)

Supply voltage: 6VDC to 24VDC

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10 hours ago, sailboy007 said:

I got my sensor from Mouser.ca.

I am assuming i connect it to the analog input.

Can you help me to set up mast rotation on my WS310, H5000 Hydra and Zeus 3S? 

I have an analog mast sensor. (Honeywell smart position sensor SPS-A100D-HAMS).

It has-

Sensing range of 100°.

Output voltage: .5Vdc to 4.5Vdc. (10% to 90% of 5Vdc)

Supply voltage: 6VDC to 24VDC

Mine is wired directly into Analogue channel 1 on the H5000 CPU.

 

AD530DF6-2B11-4196-B333-F1C8D7F2CB99.thumb.png.340ef775b4611007a63f5151c93f2a3c.png

 

When you hit the configure button you are presented with a dialogue box that allows you to set Mast Rotation specifically

 

93C5FE55-C63B-4929-B2A9-FA64C9F49C4A.thumb.png.88498dd1e5174615debfeb623607165e.png

 

Configure from here allows you to set angle limits and will be specific to your setup. As I said in previous posts I created a large protractor to get the angle of rotation as accurate as I could. On my rig with no sails up ( and weight of wind forcing rotation ) that ended up being 42 degrees either side of center.

As soon as you have done this in the CPU mast rotation angle will be available to your other instruments.

 

Good luck.

 

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I did buy the 180 because the 100 was on the limit and have more than once that it was over the end and then the value change to the wrong numbers.

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On 3/8/2021 at 2:58 PM, Zonker said:

Just had a (impractical) thought.

Have a small diameter carbon rod inside the mast, affixed to the top of the pivot point. It goes all the way to the top, exits out thru a loosish bearing, and the wind sensor sits on top of it. The rod does not rotate as the mast rotates around it.

Yeah, I know it would potentially bind up as the mast loads up and bends etc etc. Just a thought experiment.

I tried this. Here is what I did and what I learned.

- I selected polycarbonate tubing as it had a lower rotational torque deflection than the same size carbon tubing.

- It was 1/2”OD and 3/8”ID 

- Mast length of 42ft. Carbon mast and bends about 4-6” under typical sailing loads.

- mounted a turntable ball bearing plate at mast top to which I attached a carbon plate to attach my B&G WS310

- at the mast base I attached a 90deg. elbow on the poly tube to control the direction.

Result:

The torque from the wind instrument was too great. The lever arm being 26” from the torque tube was too much so the polycarbonate tubing over the 42’ length would deflect and swing through a range of 6-10” in flat water. In waves it would have been far worse. Never went that far as it was immediately obviously a failure!

In hindsight if the WS310 was mounted straight up on axis with the torque tube maybe it would have worked but it was time to go racing so I drove a screw through the bearing plate to fix it’s position. It’s still like that today.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ab3cw-DYzMbN-UkiWEeh-hfPSRnN9Mog/view?usp=drivesdk
 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16Z-TXuI91FcYWmul7QK-H7xbLPnIY6nz/view?usp=drivesdk

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1apThBzByyq5mQ72zm7wKFpLeana8hOXu/view?usp=drivesdk

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On 3/8/2021 at 2:58 PM, Zonker said:

Just had a (impractical) thought.

Have a small diameter carbon rod inside the mast, affixed to the top of the pivot point. It goes all the way to the top, exits out thru a loosish bearing, and the wind sensor sits on top of it. The rod does not rotate as the mast rotates around it.

Yeah, I know it would potentially bind up as the mast loads up and bends etc etc. Just a thought experiment.

I tried this. Here is what I did and what I learned.

- I selected polycarbonate tubing as it had a lower rotational torque deflection than the same size carbon tubing.

- It was 1/2”OD and 3/8”ID 

- Mast length of 42ft. Carbon mast and bends about 4-6” under typical sailing loads.

- mounted a turntable ball bearing plate at mast top to which I attached a carbon plate to attach my B&G WS310

- at the mast base I attached a 90deg. elbow on the poly tube to control the direction.

Result:

The torque from the wind instrument was too great. The lever arm being 26” from the torque tube was too much so the polycarbonate tubing over the 42’ length would deflect and swing through a range of 6-10” in flat water. In waves it would have been far worse. Never went that far as it was immediately obviously a failure!

In hindsight if the WS310 was mounted straight up on axis with the torque tube maybe it would have worked but it was time to go racing so I drove a screw through the bearing plate to fix it’s position. It’s still like that today.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ab3cw-DYzMbN-UkiWEeh-hfPSRnN9Mog/view?usp=drivesdk
 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16Z-TXuI91FcYWmul7QK-H7xbLPnIY6nz/view?usp=drivesdk

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1apThBzByyq5mQ72zm7wKFpLeana8hOXu/view?usp=drivesdk

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Ah ha - never thought you'd put the instruments on an arm ahead of the mast with my stupid idea. Just figured for a cruising boat you'd be mounting it right on top of the mast.

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