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Jules Verne Trophy 2020


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43 minutes ago, kaptah said:

To me it looks that they use it just as a handle. Look at the end of the clip where guy is filming with selfie stick. He is hanging on that rope with his other hand. I don't think that he would be trimming anything while filming with the other hand.

It wasn't there in this video. Strange to have a flexible handle like that. I wondered if it is connected to the manual control for the central foil, so the helm can adjust central ride height if noone is in the "hot" seat. They seem to be moving the line, rather than the line being static.

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23 minutes ago, hump101 said:

It wasn't there in this video. Strange to have a flexible handle like that. I wondered if it is connected to the manual control for the central foil, so the helm can adjust central ride height if noone is in the "hot" seat. They seem to be moving the line, rather than the line being static.

AT on Hugo Boss had that set up for his mainsheet. So it can be eased slightly when a gust comes in, but does not need to go into a self tailor. 

Not saying this is the mainsheet, but traveller or sheet would make sense.

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14 minutes ago, Potter said:

AT on Hugo Boss had that set up for his mainsheet. So it can be eased slightly when a gust comes in, but does not need to go into a self tailor. 

Not saying this is the mainsheet, but traveller or sheet would make sense.

It does look like a tail from something, but the line appears to go forward, and all the sail controls on Sodebo are aft of the helm. Could be led aft somewhere else?

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I really hope this will work out for Sodebo, but they could end up hundreds of miles behind by the time they get to New Zealand... They only entered Indian ocean and have already lost more than half of the initial advantage.

Now I understand, why it was critical for Gitana to reach Cape of good hope in less than 12 days.

Are there any fast lanes opening up in the coming days? How does the forecast for Pacific look like?

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7 hours ago, Raked Aft\\ said:

That was an expensive little jaunt north prior to the gybe.

  looks like they lost ~200nm.  and are ~10kts off Idecs pace.

Yeah, I saw they had to gybe, but I didn't correctly calculate how unfavored the unfavorable gybe would be.  I thought they would be able to gradually slide north to IDEC's track.  Not head off at 50 degrees (not sure if it is mag or true).

16 hours ago, Lakrass said:

Don't forget that those distances are the one covered by the boat and not "distance made good", Sodebo might actually lose more than that while keeping 770 nm average as they have to pass North of Kerguelen. Would be interesting to have the trace of IDEC ahead as well to see how straight they were.

Excellent point.  I did realize that.  What I didn't anticipate was the gybe was such a bad heading and that they had to stay on it for so long.  I think I was lured in by IDEC's track and assumed (incorrectly) that the lion's share of the miles would be straight down the track.

16 hours ago, Airwick said:

Turn this on:
image.png.632bf72f96bd9ea13b5fbab27cd21a95.png

They sailed on one jibe pretty much straight across all the way past NZ...

As we can see, they sailed as straight as possible on the rhumb line to past New Zealand.  It is why I called the Cape of Good Hope to Cape Leeuwin reference time "almost unassailable."  In fact, to break the record you need to be ready to sail about 8000 miles in about 10 days just to stay even ...

7 hours ago, silvestert said:

Now I understand, why it was critical for Gitana to reach Cape of good hope in less than 12 days.

 

 

That dove tails into the point I was trying to make "up thread."  It is a near meaningless figure to measure yourself against IDEC's time from the Start to the Equator and the Equator to the Cape of Good Hope because of their explosive performance across the Southern Ocean.  You have to be 38 to 40 hours ahead at Cape of Good Hope AND average 840 miles a day from the Cape to Leeuwin just to stay even. 

That is why I was talking about Sprindrift's 4 days 20 hours to the Equator and Garbart's 5 days 23 and 1/2 hours Equator to Cape of Good Hope time as a rough measure of progress.  Those times combined, 10 days, 20 hours would put you about 48 hours ahead of Joyon's time of approximately 12 days, 20 hours.  Then you stay even with Joyon in the Indian Ocean and you are 10 hours ahead at Leeuwin.  Ten hours isn't a lot, but it keeps you in the game.

 

Can't help but feel bad for the Sodebo crew as they lose all those miles.  Being chased by a ghost that you know won't experience a bad wind shift or get cold or tired.  A ghost that just keeps reeling off miles.  It reminds me of when Reese explains what The Terminator is to Sarah Connor.  Just substitute IDEC for "The Terminator."

Kyle Reese : Listen, and understand! [IDEC] is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop... ever, until [it sails past you] !

Lead now down to 272 nm.

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15 hours ago, Lakrass said:

Don't forget that those distances are the one covered by the boat and not "distance made good", Sodebo might actually lose more than that while keeping 770 nm average as they have to pass North of Kerguelen. Would be interesting to have the trace of IDEC ahead as well to see how straight they were.

It's a lot easier to say this now than 15 hours ago (like you) but I think Sodebo will pass Kerguelen from the south side, and stay there all the way until 115 degrees east. Otherwise they will almost stop their progress before Cap Leeuwin due to less than 10 knots of wind. They need to use latitude 55 degrees south to have a reasonable wind at 115 degrees east longitude.

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Yeah hopefully the ice situation isn't too bad and they can stay on starboard jibe for the next 3 days in some wind. Regadless there will be a b it of a transition around Leuwin where they will have to throw in some jibes, hopefully they can stay is some good breeze but they will be a ways behind Idec for sure...

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7 hours ago, Former MDR Vandal 1 said:

not sure if it is mag or true

Good question. A true source is required for AIS A, but not for AIS B. I would bet its true though, as my position estimation tracking calculations are based on them being true and they match to sub 1nm.

Then again these trackers seem to report hdg and cog being the same all the time, so maybe it is actually cog which naturally is true.

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In today's video they explain it's been very rough for the last 2-3 days and that conditions change frequently so they have to constantly adapt and often slow down due to sea state.

Makes sense as Idec was riding a front ahead of a big weather system but they are on the back side of it. They don't say anything about what's coming up next though...

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On 12/1/2020 at 11:54 PM, noaano said:

 

On 12/1/2020 at 1:32 PM, tama_manu said:

Great videos.  It looks like Charal is coming up soon on Sodebo's bow right now, but the big trimaran is heading about 10 degrees further downwind, so unless the boats change course this first crossing may not be so close.  29 more chances though.

Shame Charals AIS is transmitting so badly if at all, so we do not know for sure, but I estimate Charal to be at 33.78W and Sodebo at 33.87W when they crossed, that means distance of around 5 nm.

It happened around one hour ago I think, hard to tell exactly.

Now: LAT/LON:    -17.184500      -33.878400   SPD/DHG:    28.6    168     

All out of chances now, 0/28 close passes, Sodebo's weather will keep them south of the VG ice limits / fleet - and bouncing hard.  Glad those guys haven't hit anything.  They must really be hoping for a better sea state so they can pace Joyon's record.

 

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1 hour ago, TheDragon said:

On pace now with a clean line ahead for a couple of days.

It doesn't look like they will be able to get much more than 700miles per day for the next couple of days as they are catching up with that light patch.

Could get messy with that low forming south of Oz in 3-4 days... hopefully they can squeak under it without running into ice or light winds.

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14 hours ago, Airwick said:

It doesn't look like they will be able to get much more than 700miles per day for the next couple of days as they are catching up with that light patch.

Could get messy with that low forming south of Oz in 3-4 days... hopefully they can squeak under it without running into ice or light winds.

I like how we are now talking in terms of 700 mile/day being not all that great or in terms of "Only..."  :P

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8 minutes ago, Varan said:

Oh boy, a new boat to break.

 

 

But the media coming off the boat would likely be excellent. 

polaRYSE > ATR

Also Spindrift's media on their JV attempt was fantastic.

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Couple of annoucements today:

  • The first MACIF was officially sold to Actual Leader (see photo) with Yves Le Blevec as a skipper. Programme includes the next Transat Jacques Vavre in 2021 and short races like Fastnet. Main objective will be Route du Rhum 2022. No mention of Jules Verne or round the world as yet.

 

  • The current Actual Leader (former Sodebo) has also be sold, buyer not disclosed yet.

 

Source: https://twitter.com/JacquesGuyader

2020 09 26 Lo (11).jpg

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3 hours ago, Bebmoumoute said:

Would you really give AT a £10 million foiling trimaran ???

Regardless of the skipper, why not a foiling catamaran instead?

3 foils in each hull, center one located close to the forward one, thus it could function as a flap during takeoff. Both maximum wing area and high coefficient of lift as needed.

When at speed, use forward L-foil and rudder T-foil at leeward side, and central L-foil only at windward side. Thus minimum possible wetted surface when there is no need for more area. Also center of lift of forward foil is located further forward than during takeoff conditions by 2 foil combination. That compensates for bow down pitchng moment needed for safety in offshore boat, that inshore foiling cats ignore and thus sometimes pitchpoles when rudder downforce is not available. When done right, 3 foil design (in each hull) never needs downforce from rudderfoil, making it safe enough as required.

No need for different size foils for different conditions like used on sailGP or previously AC50 cats, but still same benefits, which trimarans with 6 foils total lack.

 

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3 hours ago, Bebmoumoute said:

The first MACIF was officially sold to Actual Leader (see photo) with Yves Le Blevec as a skipper. Programme includes the next Transat Jacques Vavre in 2021 and short races like Fastnet. Main objective will be Route du Rhum 2022. No mention of Jules Verne or round the world as yet.

Thats old news, been in the works all year and I can't wait to see Yves with a new stead.

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25 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:

Regardless of the skipper, why not a foiling catamaran instead?

3 foils in each hull, center one located close to the forward one, thus it could function as a flap during takeoff. Both maximum wing area and high coefficient of lift as needed.

When at speed, use forward L-foil and rudder T-foil at leeward side, and central L-foil only at windward side. Thus minimum possible wetted surface when there is no need for more area. Also center of lift of forward foil is located further forward than during takeoff conditions by 2 foil combination. That compensates for bow down pitchng moment needed for safety in offshore boat, that inshore foiling cats ignore and thus sometimes pitchpoles when rudder downforce is not available. When done right, 3 foil design (in each hull) never needs downforce from rudderfoil, making it safe enough as required.

No need for different size foils for different conditions like used on sailGP or previously AC50 cats, but still same benefits, which trimarans with 6 foils total lack.

 

Been discussed at length several times in these forums in the past. 

Comes down to people far more educated and experienced that you or I making the decision. 

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Just now, Bebmoumoute said:

Well it's been signed today... so not that old

It was announced much earlier in the year, even if finally signed today, so somebody must have jumped the gun!

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57 minutes ago, ALL@SEA said:

Been discussed at length several times in these forums in the past. 

Comes down to people far more educated and experienced that you or I making the decision. 

I've got a feeling with the pocket books of some of these syndicates, that has long been explored and shot down and its not at all as beneficial as our armchair ultim designer here thinks it is. ;) 

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1 hour ago, ALL@SEA said:

Been discussed at length several times in these forums in the past. 

Comes down to people far more educated and experienced that you or I making the decision. 

Link to any one of them?

Would be better to post this in the correct thread if it would be known.

 

The most interesting part is why those people you mention are making a decision to use trimaran planform, not that they currently are.

There have been several cats successfully taking Jules Verne trophy or just breaking the record. I think they were all *) designed and engineered by educated and experienced people.

Number of hulls in the air is not even relevant when fully foiling for any other reason than structural efficiency for connecting the parts still relevant.

 

*) = Although Team Phillips might have been an exemption of that, if it wasn't the construction that went wrong. 

 

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41 minutes ago, TPG said:

I've got a feeling with the pocket books of some of these syndicates, that has long been explored and shot down and its not at all as beneficial as our armchair ultim designer here thinks it is. ;) 

You are calling designers like Gilles Ollier, Pete Melvin, Gino Morrelli as armchair designer. I'm sure they all had a lot more experience and education in the field than you a long time ago when designing cats for round the world record task.

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17 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:

Number of hulls in the air is not even relevant when fully foiling for any other reason than structural efficiency for connecting the parts still relevant.

 

This is _the_ point. When flying, who cares how many hulls you have airborne?

And if you're not foiling, someone is going to go faster than you.

Foiling changes everything. Exotic layouts become much more feasible.

Btw, I quite like the idea of multiple foils with dedicated function. One for takeoff, another for cruise part of the flight.

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16 minutes ago, NotSoFast said:

You are calling designers like Gilles Ollier, Pete Melvin, Gino Morrelli as armchair designer. I'm sure they all had a lot more experience and education in the field than you a long time ago when designing cats for round the world record task.

No, I'm calling you an armchair designer, if you can't follow along, please don't try to join the adults table. I'm sure at one point or another all of them have been consulted and decided against cats.

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Back on topic...

Sodebo is keeping pace with Idec while on starboard tack. What are the chances that they can catch onto, and stay ahead of the HUGE low that appears to be forming south of Australia?
If they can catch that train, it looks like the mother fuckin’ polar express!!!

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1 hour ago, TPG said:

No, I'm calling you an armchair designer, if you can't follow along, please don't try to join the adults table. I'm sure at one point or another all of them have been consulted and decided against cats.

The primary reason for this is weight; regardless if the boat is a trimaran or catamaran, you need a stiff central support structure for the rig. On a catamaran, this results in a fairly heavy main beam layup and central longeron structure. This is replaced by a relatively small main hull on a trimaran, that is inherently stiff, plus provides a centralized, protected location for basic human needs, i.e sleeping, cooking, weather routing etc. At the scale of an Ultim, when all factors are added up, the trimaran ends up being lighter than the catamaran. Weight is the enemy of a performance vehicle, especially one that flies.

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Discussion with router from Sodebo team today went over concerns about trailing Idec at this point.  He feels they are going to be able to stay close to Idec's pace now, and then really stretch out in the Pacific. Waves are slowing them considerably now, approaching Australia. He also mentioned how getting back up the Atlantic after Cape Horn can be tricky.  Skipper said they saw a couple of icebergs near Kerguelens. 

  

 

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2 hours ago, PaulK said:

Discussion with router from Sodebo team today went over concerns about trailing Idec at this point.  He feels they are going to be able to stay close to Idec's pace now, and then really stretch out in the Pacific. Waves are slowing them considerably now, approaching Australia. He also mentioned how getting back up the Atlantic after Cape Horn can be tricky.  Skipper said they saw a couple of icebergs near Kerguelens. 

  

 

My prediction:

By the time they get to western hemisphere, they are at least 24 hours behind Idec.

At present they are slowed down by both seastate and wind direction forcing them sailing at VMG downwind angle,

then by not enough wind and then again by seastate. Any good conditions in between are too short to make a difference.

Idec on the other hand had excellent conditions almost all the way to Cap Horn, just one significantly slower day in between.

In order to have enough lead at the equator to allow breaking the record, Sodebo needs much better south Atlantic run from Horn to equator, which is realistically still quite possible and at least some catching up between NZ and Cap Horn.

 

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3 hours ago, samc99us said:

 you need a stiff central support structure for the rig. 

Exactly, unless you try the Team Phillps approach:

imageResize.jpg.a5c1f38b97202d38cc214d1415640656.jpg

That didn't work out, the front fell off, so also need supports for the bow.  Trimaran again seems to be lighter in that regard. Plus I don't see that rig going 40 knots.  And then with lifting foils?  Weren't even trying such foils back then, we've come a long way baby.  The proof is in the performance, we're seeing it.  Sorry about thread drifting.

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Looks like they have been at that speed for a while too - somewhere more than an hour, but less than 3 (if I am reading it right).  Still seems like a long time to be off the pace. Fingers crossed for them - they are a looong way from anywhere atm

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4 hours ago, tama_manu said:

Exactly, unless you try the Team Phillps approach:

 

That might be interesting to see as a foiling version. With more modern rig of course, maybe wingmasts?

Turn the pod around, so its facing forwards, and add a canopy. You'll have a nice flight deck with good sightlines :) 

A quick render of the inside of the cockpit navigating southern ocean icebergs:

download.jpg

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13 minutes ago, b3nharris said:

 

Rudder damage on Sodebo. Game over I guess.

Not necessarily. It probably is if they hit something, but it could "just" be mechanical failure of a part that can be replaced - which is not easy in big seas at the end of one of the side hulls.

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39 minutes ago, Bebmoumoute said:

Not necessarily. It probably is if they hit something, but it could "just" be mechanical failure of a part that can be replaced - which is not easy in big seas at the end of one of the side hulls.

But even if they can fix it they're bleeding miles - any hope they had of making up time in the Pacific/Atlantic to 'catch up' with IDEC is getting very slim. Do they just give up at that point? (Though can't really turn back now I guess).

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5 hours ago, noaano said:

 

That might be interesting to see as a foiling version. With more modern rig of course, maybe wingmasts?

Turn the pod around, so its facing forwards, and add a canopy. You'll have a nice flight deck with good sightlines :) 

A quick render of the inside of the cockpit navigating southern ocean icebergs:

download.jpg

The Pod on Team Phillips was getting smacked with waves.  They didn't anticipate this.  So jack it up another 10ft.

Here's some Ultime Cat vaporware for you: https://www.ultimboat.com/pegasius-project

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I wonder how they'll get it home.  The IMOCAs in Cape Town (aside from maybe Sam) apparently will be shipped home.  But they're most of the way to Australia, and...  how does shipping one of these things compare to shipping an IMOCA?  Would it make sense to just do a repair in AUS and have a delivery crew sail it home?

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1 minute ago, Your Mom said:

I wonder how they'll get it home.  The IMOCAs in Cape Town (aside from maybe Sam) apparently will be shipped home.  But they're most of the way to Australia, and...  how does shipping one of these things compare to shipping an IMOCA?  Would it make sense to just do a repair in AUS and have a delivery crew sail it home?

Story on the Sodebo site says they are heading to Reunion (makes sense with the NW heading) to make the boat safe before heading back to Lorient. Assume that's sailing it back, but not completely clear.
Sodebo Ultim 3 met fin à sa tentative de Trophée Jules Verne - Sodebo - Trophée Jules Verne

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36 minutes ago, serialsailor said:

Aaaand they're out. Too bad.

 

That's such a shame, and sorry for them.  Great attempt up to this point.  Glad all are safe and sound, and can get everything squared away in some form to get back and try again some other time.

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Hmmm. Gitana's delay might be just right. Verdier's comment about the VG foilers works for Gitana

Quote

According to Team New Zealand forecaster, there is a seasonal weather lag of almost three weeks: summer in the Deep South is just setting in, they arrived too early! This is why we are observing these constant fronts and these erratic zones passing by, the more stable flow is being set up for the boats behind.  

 

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So they go  to La Réunion to fix the boat, what will be the way back ? Cargo ? Sailing through the red Sea and Suez ? Or Sailing back around good hope ?

Suez would be cool, (except for the pirates around the horn)

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7 hours ago, Bebmoumoute said:

 

Very moving video... with "live" decision to give up...

For a while they find the boat harder to steer, and even the autopilot makes mistakes. They discover a problem on the starboard rudder; The rudder is moving up and down on its collars. They find big bearing balls inside the ama, and small bits of carbon fiber... François Duguet, the boat captain tries to repair, with help from the rest of the crew and technical support from the team on shore. They sent pictures of the damage to get some technical advice.

François Duguet completes a makeshift repair after spending 6 hours inside the ama... I guess the blue strap you see at 3:15 is to try to hold the rudder in place.

At 3:40, François Duguet explains that making this type of repair in the shop, on the workbench is not easy, so you can imagine inside an ama, moving around, even if they reduced the boat speed to make it more comfortable...

At 3:50, François Duguet seems cautiously optimistic, they put everything back together (even if they may have lost a few balls of the bearing...) and lock the up and down motion of the rudder with a makeshift repair... He even says at 4:15 "we are going to get back to speed, and if it is holding, we are back on track!"

At 4:20, he proposes to Thomas Coville, "let's put it under load for 2 hours and see what happens; we may have a good surprise..."

To which Thomas answers: "it is not a walk in the park; we still have a half around the world sail to make... Everybody is reacting well, I had no dougt about that, but how everybody is reacting is just the proof of that. It is really hard to tell you that, but my duty is also to bring you home, and to bring back the boat to its owner. We were not out of the game; we did great until the Kerguelen Islands, we were on time. But I just not want to get carried away by ego, pride, or will, to complete the round trip just to say that we completed the round trip...

I want to give you an "appointment" for the next try... Then you will decide if you want to come back. We should not be daredevil. It is not the kind of boat you put in those areas if it is not 100%... There is no kind of boat for that... If we continue like this without being at 100%..."

Thomas is trailing off here... and the rest of the video shows the disappointment of the crew, especially Thomas Rouxel...

 

Tough decision taken by a true captain, IMHO.

 

 

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On 12/12/2020 at 2:44 AM, Laurent said:

They need to find a sorcerer in La Réunion to de-jinx that rudder. As far as I know, it is the same one that broke during the Brest Atlantiques Race...

Indeed!, awfull coincidence... Was the rudder problem caused by a structural issue or just again another OFNI ?

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In the last article posted on the official Sodebo website, they explain why La Réunion island instead of Australia and the near term future.

La Réunion was chosen because the weather was easier to get there, and it is a French Départment (administrative area). The shore team can fly from metropolitan France and work on the boat without any quarantine delays and concerns. If they had gone to Australia, they would have had to isolate for 14 days...

Regarding the near term future...

<<

The stop at Port Réunion on the North West of the island should last a few days. Then the crew will sail for about three weeks to come back to Lorient, where they should arrive around mid-january. Would a new start for a Jules Vernes trophy attempt this year be possible then? Jean-Christophe Moussard, the team-manager answers "No, we will not go again this year. By the time we arrive, the boat will have done a number of miles equivalent to a full around the world sail. She must be checked, inspected carefully. But we will take advantage of the return trip to learn how to perform even better on this young boat, splashed in March 2019."

>>

 

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19 hours ago, Laurent said:

In the last article posted on the official Sodebo website, they explain why La Réunion island instead of Australia and the near term future.

Countries keep bases on remote islands for all kinds of reasons related to "national interests".

For some it's to project the dominance of their military, for others it's to project the dominance of their around the world racing programs!!!

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