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Jules Verne Trophy 2020


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I think experience increases your chances of getting lucky...
But the fact is they were only able to achieve their amazing run in the Indian because they had the perfect weather for it and that definitely requires luck as they could not control this, or even know with any precision what would happen when they crossed the start.

So yes, you definitely need experience but still need some level of luck to be successful.

Looks like Gitana's is going to catch the low pretty nicely and looks like they'll be pretty close to Idec's "day 10" position in about 24h so a bit more than 1 day ahead. However looking forward a couple days after that it looks like they are going to have to start gybing as the bit with the NW wind moves really fast and is too far South for them to stay in it. Based on what we've seen they seem to need to sail fairly hot angles too (compared to Idec and Sodebo) so that's not going to help.

They are not going to stay ahead long if they can't stay on one gybe!

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I flew a 747 for last 23 years of my career, when I retired my wife bought me a DJI drone as a gift, had to climb a tree to retrieve it the first day. My wife and daughters find this extremely hu

Very moving video... with "live" decision to give up... For a while they find the boat harder to steer, and even the autopilot makes mistakes. They discover a problem on the starboard rudder; The

FWIW I had the pleasure of getting to know Fossett pretty well at the time he was campaigning Stars and Stripes and trying to set the Chicago Mackinac Race record (which he did set the all time race r

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12 hours ago, serialsailor said:

I think it might be wrong to think Gitana is much faster than IDEC in all conditions. From what we've seen, it seems Gitana is indeed much faster in medium conditions, because they can get foiling when IDEC couldn't, but i think this gap is reduced in heavy conditions, where foiling becomes complicated and which IDEC with its small mast was optimised for. I still think gitana is a faster boat overall, but that is more due to their excellent speeds in transitional zones with foiling conditions (allowing them to get to another system without slowing down to much which is a big advantage!) than their top high speed averages. We havent seen a boat break the 24 h record in 10 years but i hope Gitana is the one that does it.

IDEC's run in the Indian cannot be understated, 6 days at more than 35 knots in front of the low is amazing. It is also hard to beat because you have to stay in the front to have those speeds. It has to have the right speed and travel with you. Maybe some day we'll see Gitana, Sodebo or one of the incoming Ultims sailing several days at 40 knts in the right front but you do have to get really lucky.

Gitana in the same low that Idec had a few years ago probably wouldn't have been faster on that amazing run because IDEC never fell behind the front, they just slowed down and gybed when it fizzled out. I remember them saying that it was a lot of work staying in front of the low, and that they almost fell behind at one point, so Gitana might have had an easier time staying in front, but hardly could have gone faster in the same low because the farther forward you are, the less wind there is.

Some day we will get boats able to punch in front through the next system, but we haven't seen Gitana do that (yet ;) )

 

Absolutely.  My point was just that it is pretty tough to make a claim that Gitana HAD to be ahead of IDEC by X amount in the first 1/3rd of the course in order to have a chance of beating Idec's JVT time.  Who knows, maybe Gitana will absolutely rip across the Pacific, hit the coast of Brazil perfectly....There are plenty of opportunities for a faster boat to beat IDEC's time, regardless of how hard it may be to overcome Idec's great track across the Indian ocean.  Now, if Gitana was a slower boat, it would b a monumentally harder feat to overcome Idec's Indian crossing.

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Of course you need luck in the weather to break the record. No doubt about that. But as said by others, you create your luck. With the current forecast capabilities, they are all looking at not only how long to get to the equator, but which low pressure system to latch on in the South Atlantic.

Do they know before they cross the start line how fast that South Atlantic low pressure system will travel across the Indian Ocean? Most probably not.

But, while in the South Atlantic, recognizing the situation and knowing to maintain pedal to the metal for 10 days without breaking anything, without stuffing it and losing precious hours that make you lose the cold front, this is not luck.

So stating that the record was 90% luck is just plain stupid.

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18 hours ago, Laurent said:

TJV

TJV is Transat Jaques Vabre

:lol:

Looks like a solid 3 days with this low, possibly longer looking at euro. Their 4 hour speed is sitting right at 24h record pace.

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2 hours ago, TPG said:

TJV is Transat Jaques Vabre

:lol:

Looks like a solid 3 days with this low, possibly longer looking at euro. Their 4 hour speed is sitting right at 24h record pace.

My BAD !!

I tried to initialize Trophée Jules Verne... but bad choice of letters since it is already taken...

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44 minutes ago, Laurent said:

My BAD !!

I tried to initialize Trophée Jules Verne... but bad choice of letters since it is already taken...

in true Pulp Fiction style, maybe we should call it "le GéVé"

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2 hours ago, Laurent said:

My BAD !!

I tried to initialize Trophée Jules Verne... but bad choice of letters since it is already taken...

My first cup of coffee brain was melting thinking "who gives a shit about the TJV? Franck both won it and set the record!" :lol:

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Looks to me as though they will be going full throttle for coming days. Currently 35knots and dont look like slowing for the ext 4 days. Cant imagine what it must be like for them on board. 

The whole teams preparation, experience and ability has created a lot of luck for them this far! Lets hope it continues.

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775 miles in the past 24hrs!!!

Fuck Yeah!

almost 600 miles ahead also! 
As much as I’d love to see Francis Joyon hold on to this record FOREVER (I personally think he is THE MAN of men, in the entire sailing world!!!), I’m loving what Gitana is doing right now! Absolutely incredible!! 

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How do you beat a boat (IDEC) that did 700 mile days? 
... you do 800 mile days!!! 
WOW!!!

B24482F0-8E1D-4B3B-B911-48706BC5E5CE.jpeg

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How fast can they be going and be able to launch and retrieve the drone?  Can they be going at full-tilt 40+ knt speeds in the Southern Ocean and pull that feat off?  I wanna see some drone footage of them going full-tilt.

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10 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

How fast can they be going and be able to launch and retrieve the drone?  Can they be going at full-tilt 40+ knt speeds in the Southern Ocean and pull that feat off?  I wanna see some drone footage of them going full-tilt.

I don't have an answer, but I'd guess it helps to be going downwind...  Theoretically, the important number in this question is the maximum apparent wind...  Which should be the same as the maximum ground wind you could fly in if you were standing in an open field.  (Aside from the impact of sea state and spray on the takeoff/landing processes).  This makes me wonder what apparent windspeeds a boat like this actually encounters when broad reaching in 20-30 kts windspeed...  My rough math says actually quite moderate...  like 10-15 kts...

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1 minute ago, Your Mom said:

I don't have an answer, but I'd guess it helps to be going downwind...  Theoretically, the important number in this question is the maximum apparent wind...  Which should be the same as the maximum ground wind you could fly in if you were standing in an open field.  (Aside from the impact of sea state and spray on the takeoff/landing processes).

Hoping they have extra drones, seem high likelihood of a drone going for a swim.

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18 minutes ago, Jean-Baptiste said:

Hoping they have extra drones, seem high likelihood of a drone going for a swim.

Yann didn't lose one in the VOR. He knows what he's doing.

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31 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

How fast can they be going and be able to launch and retrieve the drone?  Can they be going at full-tilt 40+ knt speeds in the Southern Ocean and pull that feat off?  I wanna see some drone footage of them going full-tilt.

Yann uses a racing drone (it'll do 50 easy) for the high speed shots and the pretty shots are Mavic 2 Pro

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Depends on the drone... You need a high end one with enough top end speed, my cousin ran into that on Actual where his drone (a DJI of some sort) couldn't keep up when going much over 30kt...

26 minutes ago, Your Mom said:

This makes me wonder what apparent windspeeds a boat like this actually encounters when broad reaching in 20-30 kts windspeed...  My rough math says actually quite moderate...  like 10-15 kts...

Pretty sure it's quite a bit higher than that, they don't sail very deep angles.

 

1 hour ago, Solarbri said:

How do you beat a boat (IDEC) that did 700 mile days? 
... you do 800 mile days!!! 
WOW!!!

As crazy fast as they are going right now, IDEC did pull 5 consecutive days at over 850 (yes, 8, not 7!) per day (about 4300miles in 5 days or 861 miles per day!) so they would still get reeled in slowly over the next few days at that speed!

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The next two days should see Gitana's lead / buffer grow significantly as they are relatively light runs for IDEC, only making sub 400nm and then sub 600nm down the rhumb line over the next 48 hours.

Gitana looks fully hooked into this front and can hopefully keep the 800nm days rolling! 

So possibly a 1200nm buffer by the time IDEC hit their straps on Day 11/12?... Right on that 1-2 day buffer the Gitana team were seeking from their routing by Cape of Good Hope. 

The apparent wind math works out differently when you're going that much faster that the breeze. In the last video update off the boat the TWA was approx 90 degrees, and they were doing approx 37 knots BS. For argument's sake if it was blowing 17 knots TWS (as per the wind on the tracker) then they've got at least 40 knots over the deck in AWS. Even if they sail as deep as 130 TWA they'll still have 30 knots AWS. 

 

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56 minutes ago, point said:

The apparent wind math works out differently when you're going that much faster that the breeze. In the last video update off the boat the TWA was approx 90 degrees, and they were doing approx 37 knots BS. For argument's sake if it was blowing 17 knots TWS (as per the wind on the tracker) then they've got at least 40 knots over the deck in AWS. Even if they sail as deep as 130 TWA they'll still have 30 knots AWS. 

I was thinking about angles of 140-150, and was just roughing it out in my head.  These numbers sound more likely to be accurate than what I was thinking, thanks.

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2 hours ago, TPG said:

Yann didn't lose one in the VOR. He knows what he's doing.

I flew a 747 for last 23 years of my career, when I retired my wife bought me a DJI drone as a gift, had to climb a tree to retrieve it the first day.

My wife and daughters find this extremely humorous.

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1 hour ago, Tropical Madness said:

Looks like they can stay with this 4-5 days... could see some records tumble!

it looks to me like they are going to be gybing about 2.5 days, at which point they will also be behind the front with presumably worse sea states so they will likely slow down.

They might have a shot at the 24h record over the next 48h depending on how hard they push but they'd have to pick up a couple extra nots of speed for that. I don't think they've broken 37kt over a 4h period yet so it's not looking very likely right now. Then again they probably don't want to take to much risk as they have a long way to go still and the 24h record isn't their primary objective...

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54 minutes ago, vokstar said:

Are there 48 hour and 7 day records? 

Don't think there are but Idec would have them for sure from their run...

39.1 on their last report! They are cooking pretty well!

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10 minutes ago, jimmyuk81 said:

Some more great drone footage... And a glimpse into how you “shower” on an Ultime...!

 

Deja vu, or is this old footage from a previous attempt? 

I'm sure I've seen it before.

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10 hours ago, Jean-Baptiste said:

I flew a 747 for last 23 years of my career, when I retired my wife bought me a DJI drone as a gift, had to climb a tree to retrieve it the first day.

 

Know the feeling. It would be a bummer to retrieve a perfectly good 747 from a tree.

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2 hours ago, ALL@SEA said:

Deja vu, or is this old footage from a previous attempt? 

I'm sure I've seen it before.

This one? (a year ago)

 

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24h 829 as of last report. 768nm advance. If they push up over a 1000 mile advance, losing 100 miles a day won't hurt so much with IDEC's run across the indian ocean.

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More info on site. Cammas confirms they are confident their pace means the Indian is worth a go, despite IDEC's time

Quote

Since the start of this 10th day of the record attempt, the wind has fleshed out as forecast, accompanied by a short, cross sea, it too becoming heavier. This afternoon, the latest of the Gitanas was sailing in a good NW’ly breeze of thirty knots or so, but she was continuing to power along towards the tip of South Africa. With a lead of 792 miles over Francis Joyon’s record, the men of Gitana Team know that they are sailing at the right tempo, but they remain clear-headed and particularly focused: “Idec had an exceptional Indian Ocean with an ideal gybe-free course and a series of days where they covered more than 800 miles… We knew we had to make it to the tip of South Africa with a good lead in order to do battle with them on an even footing”, explained Franck Cammas.

http://www.gitana-team.com/en/article.aspx?id=1290&type=actu

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Doesn't look like the 24h record is in danger, I think they have about 36h before they have to gybe I'm guessing shortly after they are past the cape (with lightening conditions near the end). Then they are going to be bleeding miles for a day and a half until a NW flow establishes itself again as they get close to the Kerguelens. Hopefully they can ride that on one gybe for a while (like to NZ or so)!

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Not that they’ll care, but very strong chance Gitana will smash the record to Cape of Good  Hope. Around 750nm to go and some 37 hours to do it in. 

After that is where they’re going to have to work harder for the miles!

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They still have about 550 miles to go but it looks like they are going to have to gybe before they get there and their VMG will be bad after that. Probably will still make it but not by that much.
They are about to transition from building their lead to bleeding it as well!

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On 1/18/2021 at 9:07 PM, Airwick said:

it looks to me like they are going to be gybing about 2.5 days, at which point they will also be behind the front with presumably worse sea states so they will likely slow down.

They might have a shot at the 24h record over the next 48h depending on how hard they push but they'd have to pick up a couple extra nots of speed for that. I don't think they've broken 37kt over a 4h period yet so it's not looking very likely right now. Then again they probably don't want to take to much risk as they have a long way to go still and the 24h record isn't their primary objective...

The other factor relative to how fast they want to push it on a RTW race, with these new boats, is cavitation damage on the foils.  Gitana is going to be particularly sensitive to this given they had to give up one race, already, due to cavitation damage.  No sense in going those few extra knotts that may compromise the foils in a race that is 40 days long.  They can always try to do a North Atlantic / 24h record attempt.

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1 hour ago, GauchoGreg said:

Gitana is going to be particularly sensitive to this given they had to give up one race, already, due to cavitation damage.

Wasn't that Seb Josse a couple years ago now?

23559764_1191120494322858_8676016501861275358_n.jpg

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Gitana is putting out podcasts, in FR, but the 5-clicks get EN auto translated subtitles. Seems to be more 'lifestyle' focus (based on 15-clicks and quick scans). Here's #3. 

 

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Next jibe should be about south of Cape of Good Hope, right?

Then maybe one long starboard tack to go really south, and then another gibe to pass South of Kerguelen Islands? Obviously, that depends on the ice limit they give themselves to stay safe.

Four days from now, IDEC would have been in the South of Kerguelen Islands. My wild ass guestimate is that they can match that, with the lead they currently have...

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12 minutes ago, Laurent said:

Next jibe should be about south of Cape of Good Hope, right?

Then maybe one long starboard tack to go really south, and then another gibe to pass South of Kerguelen Islands? Obviously, that depends on the ice limit they give themselves to stay safe.

Four days from now, IDEC would have been in the South of Kerguelen Islands. My wild ass guestimate is that they can match that, with the lead they currently have...

Not sure they are going to dive that deep South, looks like they want to be around there in ~48 (1300 miles from where they are now) but they are going to have to gybe very soon as their angle is bad and they are going towards lighter breeze...
 

image.thumb.png.a9ffad8a5edabe745dba1c4ac336c37c.png):
 

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36 minutes ago, Laurent said:

Next jibe should be about south of Cape of Good Hope, right?

Looks like it needs to be sooner than that at the heading their sailing. Their running out of northern wind real estate quickly. 

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8 minutes ago, GauchoGreg said:

Yep, have to figure their jibe will be VERY soon with a 32knt speed but only 6.5vmg, and the wind tailing off very soon.

That's for sure, VMG is suffering badly now so seems system isn't giving the kind of wind angle to go fast in the right direction.  In the last update looks like they are actually setting up for the "mouette" part to their jibe.  Plus the seas must be getting worse to slow them as they aren't on the leading edge of the LP any more.  Too bad the tracker does give actual wind speed (or apparent) as we get over on the Vendee side of things, or for that matter what Boris shares - so we could really geek out on what's happening. 

I really doubted that short mast on IDEC would be enough for the record, maybe because one of the catamarans I sail has a mast that's too short for an entirely different reason.  Joyon proved that it works in these conditions, happy to be proven wrong.  I hope Cammas and Gitana can figure out this tricky situation.

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To me it looks like their last gybe was a little late, they went a little deep into lighter winds, but maybe it just looks like that and the wind actually stayed strong enough.

 

But would have gybed like an hour earlier, just to be on a safe side.

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4 hours ago, noaano said:

To me it looks like their last gybe was a little late, they went a little deep into lighter winds, but maybe it just looks like that and the wind actually stayed strong enough.

 

But would have gybed like an hour earlier, just to be on a safe side.

The tracker wind plots are not very good compared to Windy etc. When they were in the doldrums it was showing way more wind than they had via Windy.

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Just now, TPG said:

The tracker wind plots are not very good compared to Windy etc. when they were in the doldrums it was showing way more wind than they had via Windy.

That explains, was wondering the same...

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1 minute ago, noaano said:

That explains, was wondering the same...

The tracker is fine for "huh, what are they doing?" but the wind resolution is not very good. :)

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3 minutes ago, TPG said:

The tracker is fine for "huh, what are they doing?" but the wind resolution is not very good. :)

Well, it is better than what Vesselfinder shows, which is quite anemic.

Would be nice to have a good WX + sat ais in one view. 

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I'm going to "set the cat among the pigeons"...

Contrary to what is said everywhere (as vastly admitted), very watchful observations this winter show that for transoceanic navigation, too much long to really choose the weather, these full foiling ultims are not quicker than the non foiling ultims (old of almost a decade ago).

Their speed suffers to much of the sea state, also they are slightly less able to heading near the wind direction (and obviously, less reliable).

Overall, in many ways, in the context of this type of navigations, I think that these full foiling boats reach some sort of glass ceiling... (and perhaps, a part of the solution will come of approaches developed for the AC75...).

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1 hour ago, symbio2 said:

I'm going to "set the cat among the pigeons"...

Contrary to what is said everywhere (as vastly admitted), very watchful observations this winter show that for transoceanic navigation, too much long to really choose the weather, these full foiling ultims are not quicker than the non foiling ultims (old of almost a decade ago).

Their speed suffers to much of the sea state, also they are slightly less able to heading near the wind direction (and obviously, less reliable).

Overall, in many ways, in the context of this type of navigations, I think that these full foiling boats reach some sort of glass ceiling... (and perhaps, a part of the solution will come of approaches developed for the AC75...).

I've explained at length in a previous post in which conditions I think these boats are faster or not faster than the previous generation.

Gitana and Sodebo seems faster in transitional zones, with just enough wind to foil and not much sea state. This makes it easier to switch systems. They are indeed not much faster in heavier conditions because it becomes hard to foil and their foils have to be big enough to lift off in light conditions, making them non ideal for max speed.

For example gitana can foil upwind or reaching in 15 knots of wind which is a gain on idec or BPV

Gitana max speed doesn't seem better than BPV 10 years ago but the boat overall is faster, the gains are just somewhere else.

The fact that this year's 3 runs to date all were faster down the atlantic somewhat shows the gains between idec and Sodebo/gitana, though 4 runs is obviously too small a sample too prove that empirically.

 

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53 minutes ago, symbio2 said:

I'm going to "set the cat among the pigeons"...

Contrary to what is said everywhere (as vastly admitted), very watchful observations this winter show that for transoceanic navigation, too much long to really choose the weather, these full foiling ultims are not quicker than the non foiling ultims (old of almost a decade ago).

Their speed suffers to much of the sea state, also they are slightly less able to heading near the wind direction (and obviously, less reliable).

Overall, in many ways, in the context of this type of navigations, I think that these full foiling boats reach some sort of glass ceiling... (and perhaps, a part of the solution will come of approaches developed for the AC75...).

Yeah, no.  If you have been following this for any period of time, you will know that all boats have always had failed attempts due to breakage, collisions, etc.  Every generation gets quicker, although yes there are more things that can break.  But the thing is you have to beat the previous generation, and to do that with anything other than luck, you need to be able to go faster, faster overall, not just in one sea state.  These boats are much faster in marginal conditions, not necessarily the worst or best conditions... they have the ability to transition faster, to be able to catch lows better, to skip to another system / avoid the worst seastate, etc.  A robust boat that can hold optimal speed even in rough sea state on a low is still captive to the pace of the low they are on... and if they are slower in marginal conditions to transition to the next low, they are going to get beat by a boat like Gitana, even if Gitana is not going any faster while riding the low. 

There is a reason why you can see on the plotter Gitana did MUCH better in the Atlantic than IDEC without ever reaching 24h record speeds (for reasons like preventing cavitation damage on a 40-day trip)... if they can just match or stay close to IDEC's performance in optimal conditions, then beat their performance when things are not optimal.... such as the couple of days in the Pacific when IDEC struggled, or on the way up the South Atlantic, when IDEC again struggled.  Yes, they may have exposure to a few more things to go wrong, but that is the way of racing.... there is a reason why all of the efforts are opting for similar boats.  But just as has always been the case, if they can avoid  hitting things or breaking things, get a bit of luck, Gitana will be the next trophy holder.

Is there a place for a renovated/modified Spindrift, which is a veritable tank, that might be more able to robustly deal with heavier seas?  Maybe.  But if you think it will come away from a collision with a shipping container or something similar, any better, I would not bet on it.

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2 hours ago, symbio2 said:

I'm going to "set the cat among the pigeons"...

Contrary to what is said everywhere (as vastly admitted), very watchful observations this winter show that for transoceanic navigation, too much long to really choose the weather, these full foiling ultims are not quicker than the non foiling ultims (old of almost a decade ago).

Their speed suffers to much of the sea state, also they are slightly less able to heading near the wind direction (and obviously, less reliable).

Overall, in many ways, in the context of this type of navigations, I think that these full foiling boats reach some sort of glass ceiling... (and perhaps, a part of the solution will come of approaches developed for the AC75...).

Indeed I think the cat option is very much on the table, (but not the AC75 at all), more the AC72 or 55 cat style with very long foil shafts (like 6 8m below the hull or something, 10 ?)

And in fact Gabart said somewhere they seriously considered the cat option, and the new banque pop seems to have much longer foil shafts.

But then the thing is that you avoid the crashes more and more, but when a crash happens it is more and more serious ..

But maybe with proper decision management like "the waves are too high, we don't try to fly", overall this would be the right direction.

(and true for tri or cat in fact)

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13 minutes ago, yl75 said:

But maybe with proper decision management like "the waves are too high, we don't try to fly", overall this would be the right direction.

Gitana and the current foilers are all fast enough to stay in "ideal" conditions longer though. The amount of time spent in top end or lower end conditions is lower therefore its not as much a concern. BPXI's foil choices have yet to be seen in any real world application if they are indeed longer than previously designed. I wouldn't trust what was seen in a 3D model to be a final decision.

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30 minutes ago, TPG said:

Gitana and the current foilers are all fast enough to stay in "ideal" conditions longer though. The amount of time spent in top end or lower end conditions is lower therefore its not as much a concern. BPXI's foil choices have yet to be seen in any real world application if they are indeed longer than previously designed. I wouldn't trust what was seen in a 3D model to be a final decision.

Yes for sure their speed potential opens new routing options somehow, but we still have to see them "jumping" from one low system to another in front in the Southern Ocean

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Tribute to Benjamin de Rothschild (and best time)

 

Quote

By leaving the longitude of Cape Agulhas in her wake this Thursday 21 January at 15h37’53’’ UTC, the Maxi Edmond de Rothschild has officially entered the Indian Ocean. After 11 days 14 hours and 3 minutes at sea, Franck Cammas, Charles Caudrelier and their four crew are attacking the Southern Ocean with a lead of more than 1 day 7 hours and 19 minutes over Francis Joyon and the men on Idec Sport. In so doing, they have become the fastest sailors in history on this descent of the Atlantic; a fantastic time which they naturally dedicate to Baron Benjamin de Rothschild, whose passing was announced a few days ago.

 

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36 minutes ago, yl75 said:

Yes for sure their speed potential opens new routing options somehow, but we still have to see them "jumping" from one low system to another in front in the Southern Ocean

Gitana is more or less falling off the back of this low pressure system.  If they were 1,500 miles ahead of their current position, they would still have the wind angle northerly enough to avoid jibes.  They only hooked into the system ~3 days ago, not possible to go 500 miles faster per day, this system is just moving too fast for the boat any sail boat.  I imagine if materials and designs allowed sailing 1,300 miles per day, that would be something else.

They are now already entering the ice limit for the Vendee, so ice will factor into the next jibe. Of course they are on their VMG jibe now, so will quickly lose ground when that time comes.

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Just now, yl75 said:

This Gitana team was/is really an exception in the French sailing scene, I hope it will continue

? (curious-- have always thought of Cammas and Caudrelier as major players in the FR sailing scene. What am I missing?)

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3 minutes ago, stief said:

? (curious-- have always thought of Cammas and Caudrelier as major players in the FR sailing scene. What am I missing?)

This was about Benjamin death, the initiator of the whole thing as I understand

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1 minute ago, yl75 said:

This was about Benjamin death, the initiator of the whole thing as I understand

I think I get it. He was an exceptional sponsor , and well appreciated as all the messages in the news lately showed.

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Yes, somehow Gitana team is the Closest to an Oracle Aemrica's cup campaign, for instance, the sponsor  and the owner being basically the same

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8 minutes ago, yl75 said:

Yes, somehow Gitana team is the Closest to an Oracle Aemrica's cup campaign, for instance, the sponsor  and the owner being basically the same

Makes me think about the Sodebo family.

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Schematically, these pure foiling Ultims, are just a tad quicker from around 70° to 130° of the wind, with a swell under about 2 meters. Beside that, these boat are significantly slower.

It's what the polar datas, along sea state, show.

Btw, the picture just above illustrating very nicely my view.

For the North Atlantic segment, while the weather was pretty nice with full tailwind up to the tradewinds who were really great (beside, with the tradewinds there is never serious swell to deal with), Gitana wasn't quicker than Idec.

Yes they partly preserved the boat, but it's because there is huge uncertainties on the reliability, while it's totally part of the performance equation.

In the South Atlantic, the weather was perfect for Gitana from start to the finish (while Idec struggled with larger doldrums, unstable tradewinds and transition with a low pressure system that needed some positioning adjustments). Among others, Gitana perfectly used the amazing accuracy of the latest developments in forecast and routing.

Now with the "south ocean", serious things starting.

 

The Sodebo attempt shown same problematics.

 

Some forget way to much that Idec was able to maintain an average day of 35nds (850nm by day) almost 10 days in a row, and on a direct VMG (while dealing with differents low pressure system...).

And so far these foiling Ultims can't do this (even with the exact same weather than Idec had to deal with, among others because as soon as that the sweel is above something around 2,5m the boat average speed decrease strongly).

Also I think, in the current "config", these foiling Ultims never will.

 

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2 hours ago, yl75 said:

Yes for sure their speed potential opens new routing options somehow, but we still have to see them "jumping" from one low system to another in front in the Southern Ocean

These boats are so so, so much, far from jumping from one low pressure system to another.

They can't even remain in a low pressure system, even when they start at the front of it.

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In the latest video they talk about how the boat could go much faster but they are throttling back (because they need to last 40days without breakage) and trying to find the right balance of preserving the boat without slowing down too much...

This is still early on so they are not going to take too much risk now. We might see them pushing harder if they are getting closer to the end and are behind!

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1 hour ago, symbio2 said:

Also I think, in the current "config", these foiling Ultims never will.

Think the Gitana team agrees with you? (I have no idea from the posts you've made if their Team will say "sssshhh. We know. We just wanted the job.")

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1 hour ago, symbio2 said:

 

It's what the polar datas, along sea state, show.

 

 

 

No, or show it to us. If you have both IDEC's and Gitana's polars now we're having an interesting conversation ;)

1 hour ago, symbio2 said:

Some forget way to much that Idec was able to maintain an average day of 35nds (850nm by day) almost 10 days in a row, and on a direct VMG (while dealing with differents low pressure system...). 

 

Idec had an amazing run ahead of ONE system. They stayed on one tack for 11 days, straight along the rhum line, on the low of a lifetime.

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2 hours ago, symbio2 said:

Schematically, these pure foiling Ultims, are just a tad quicker from around 70° to 130° of the wind, with a swell under about 2 meters. Beside that, these boat are significantly slower. 

It's what the polar datas, along sea state, show.

Btw, the picture just above illustrating very nicely my view.

For the North Atlantic segment, while the weather was pretty nice with full tailwind up to the tradewinds who were really great (beside, with the tradewinds there is never serious swell to deal with), Gitana wasn't quicker than Idec.

Yes they partly preserved the boat, but it's because there is huge uncertainties on the reliability, while it's totally part of the performance equation.

In the South Atlantic, the weather was perfect for Gitana from start to the finish (while Idec struggled with larger doldrums, unstable tradewinds and transition with a low pressure system that needed some positioning adjustments). Among others, Gitana perfectly used the amazing accuracy of the latest developments in forecast and routing.

Now with the "south ocean", serious things starting.

 

The Sodebo attempt shown same problematics.

 

Some forget way to much that Idec was able to maintain an average day of 35nds (850nm by day) almost 10 days in a row, and on a direct VMG (while dealing with differents low pressure system...).

And so far these foiling Ultims can't do this (even with the exact same weather than Idec had to deal with, among others because as soon as that the sweel is above something around 2,5m the boat average speed decrease strongly).

Also I think, in the current "config", these foiling Ultims never will.

 

" Schematically, these pure foiling Ultims, are just a tad quicker from around 70° to 130° of the wind, with a swell under about 2 meters. Beside that, these boat are significantly slower.

..."

Dude, you are trying way too hard to sound like you know what you are talking about, and doing so pissing against the wind of the very best offshore boat designers all coming around to the same design basis... foiling boats.  Fact of the matter, a LOT of the track for these offshore boats is in pretty ideal conditions for the foilers, and where it is not ideal, the data we have is that they can hold their own with all but possibly Spindrift.  Spindrift is the only tank around these days that might be able to push through in the much heavier conditions that would be truly boat-breaking for boats like Gitana and IDEC, alike.  Otherwise, we have not seen anything showing that Gitana could not sail right with IDEC (or the last Sodebo) in relatively rough conditions.  I could see the one sea state where the foilers may not be able to keep up with a boat like IDEC would be in REALLY light conditions, but not sure about that with IDEC when sporting the short mast.  Tradewind sailing, transition sailing, they appear to have a significant advantage.  Rough conditions, probably pretty equal... they just lose their advantage.  But another factor about these boats, we have not heard of any near pitchpoles... I believe the foils are helping tame the boats a bit. 
 

As for wind polars and performance... you best come with data to support your claims.

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Great new video.... clearly they are not going as fast as they possibly can, but rather they discuss the challenge of finding the right speed to go.

By the way, amazing how much more comfortable these boats are now in the Southern Ocean than just a few years ago.  Basically, even in the Roaring 40s, one guy has his head out in the elements, and the rest are almost always tucked away in a comfy cockpit with relatively light clothes on.

https://www.facebook.com/GitanaTeam2017/videos/225721242480049

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4 hours ago, symbio2 said:

Schematically, these pure foiling Ultims, are just a tad quicker from around 70° to 130° of the wind, with a swell under about 2 meters. Beside that, these boat are significantly slower.

It's what the polar datas, along sea state, show.

Btw, the picture just above illustrating very nicely my view.

For the North Atlantic segment, while the weather was pretty nice with full tailwind up to the tradewinds who were really great (beside, with the tradewinds there is never serious swell to deal with), Gitana wasn't quicker than Idec.

Yes they partly preserved the boat, but it's because there is huge uncertainties on the reliability, while it's totally part of the performance equation.

In the South Atlantic, the weather was perfect for Gitana from start to the finish (while Idec struggled with larger doldrums, unstable tradewinds and transition with a low pressure system that needed some positioning adjustments). Among others, Gitana perfectly used the amazing accuracy of the latest developments in forecast and routing.

Now with the "south ocean", serious things starting.

 

The Sodebo attempt shown same problematics.

 

Some forget way to much that Idec was able to maintain an average day of 35nds (850nm by day) almost 10 days in a row, and on a direct VMG (while dealing with differents low pressure system...).

And so far these foiling Ultims can't do this (even with the exact same weather than Idec had to deal with, among others because as soon as that the sweel is above something around 2,5m the boat average speed decrease strongly).

Also I think, in the current "config", these foiling Ultims never will.

 

Would like to see these polars you mentioned, sounds like BS to me. You forget that Idec, formerly Groupama 3, has been developed for over 12 years before the JV record, the Ultimes are in their infancy and will take time optimize. In the mean time, a reminder of G3 in their 2008 JV attempt. https://www.google.com/search?q=groupama+3+capsize&rlz=1C9BKJA_enCA864CA864&hl=en-US&prmd=ivn&sxsrf=ALeKk00RjhBvzsy-Dk8EBi0sTuCtj5eDXw:1611277448022&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiotrGfrK7uAhUVOH0KHaNUBeYQ_AUoAXoECAUQAQ&biw=1024&bih=653#imgrc=iTCrifsba6yzDM

 

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It's looking pretty good for them right now: if they can be about 650miles due E of where they are right now there is that new front forming with a nice Northwesterly that looks like it could carry them all the way to Aus (and hopefully further) at about 800 miles per day:
 

image.png.173c6d205e7f45f8fefc165b0fe367dc.png

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6 hours ago, symbio2 said:

 

Also I think, in the current "config", these foiling Ultims never will.

 

So basically you're implying the best designers on earth funded by one of the wealthiest families/private banks on earth designed a boat slower than the previous gen of ultimate.

You're fucking high.

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2 hours ago, TPG said:

So basically you're implying the best designers on earth funded by one of the wealthiest families/private banks on earth designed a boat slower than the previous gen of ultimate.

You're fucking high.

he's more like retarded.

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12 hours ago, symbio2 said:

Beside that, these boat are significantly slower.

 

What is the actual reason causing these boats to be "significantly slower"?

 

I can only think of extra drag caused by the foils in displacement mode. Can they be retracted, at least partially for sure?

 

Some hard data would help.

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