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Dip pole gybe - keep lazy sheet on top pole


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14 minutes ago, akhcheung said:

Advise needed!!

More often than not after a dip pole gybe, after we square the pole back, we discover that the lazy spin sheet has gone under the pole

Any tips to avoid this?

give the lazy sheet a bit of slack and loop/swing it up and over the guy/brace, it should wind around it and just stay there.  Find an old bowman to show this and other tricks.;):P

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When first hoisting the spinnaker, put both sheets inside the pole end, that'll save you on the first jibe.

And when you do this first jibe and all the rest of them, inmediately grab the new lazy sheet after putting the new guy in the pole end (it'll be still loaded and above  at the beginning)  and make sure it never goes below the pole end and the new guy by pulling it towards the boat.

Worked for me every single time for decades.

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After the new guy is made, keep tension on the old sheet.  Don't raise the pole all the way, keep it slightly low. Let the bowman get back after clipping in the new guy, roll the lazy sheet around the tensioned new guy.  Raise the pole to preferred position and you're done.

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41 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

When first hoisting the spinnaker, put both sheets inside the pole end, that'll save you on the first jibe.

And when you do this first jibe and all the rest of them, inmediately grab the new lazy sheet after putting the new guy in the pole end (it'll be still loaded and above  at the beginning)  and make sure it never goes below the pole end and the new guy by pulling it towards the boat.

Worked for me every single time for decades.

The first part is the key.  Do that,and you will be fine 99% of the time (unless the cockpit really messes up their end). 

The tension in the soon-to-be new lazy sheet while the guy is being brought on keeps it above the guy as the pole comes up and back.

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Burden here is really on the cockpit.   The kite should be kept flying and full through the jibe, meaning that both sheets are drawing.  Really good to have one person with a sheet in each hand, focusing on nothing except keeping the kite full and properly rotating around the forestay while someone else takes care of the guys.  This keeps boat speed up, which reduces apparent wind (assuming the driver is nicely keeping downwind through the process), and also makes it very natural that the pole and new guy lift up to the newly lazy sheet.  On a 40-foot boat, I figure on free-flying the kite off of both sheets for around 10 seconds, and then slowly trading tension with the new guy as it is cranked back.   That tension -trade is another 5 seconds.      The bow and mast team should be able to switch the guys in a very relaxed and unloaded manner if the kite trimmer is doing a good job.     

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59 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

When first hoisting the spinnaker, put both sheets inside the pole end, that'll save you on the first jibe.

Yeah... I personally have never liked this approach. 

First, it's not necessary (it's a simple matter to flick the lazy sheet on top of the pole as part of the normal clean-up after the set...and/or as the bow person goes forward for the next gibe). 

But more than that, it can lead to disasters.  I've seen big loops of lazy-sheet get sucked into the pole-end as the guy is brought back, and it can create a real mess. 

 

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46 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I've seen big loops of lazy-sheet get sucked into the pole-end as the guy is brought back

Never, ever had that problem, if the boat's big enough to use double sheets, the bowman should be free to pull both while the mastman hoists the chute. If it's the bowman who hoists, then you should probably be using single sheets.

 

46 minutes ago, sledracr said:

First, it's not necessary (it's a simple matter to flick the lazy sheet on top of the pole as part of the normal clean-up after the set...and/or as the bow person goes forward for the next gibe). 

Not on a big boat, when you pull up the pole the lazy sheet will get under it, and you don't want your bowman on the pointy end, unless it is strictly necessary (like for dousing the jib) especially in big winds. Neither do you want him to spend some time moving around trying to put the lazy sheet on top of a pole end that's a few meters away from the boat.

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16 minutes ago, jackolantern said:

make sure the sheet is clipped on the ring above the guy. 

I always clipped the sheet to the sail, and clipped the guy to the ring end of the sheet snap-shackle.  Makes it easier to flip/keep the lazy sheet on top of the pole.

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6 minutes ago, sledracr said:

I always clipped the sheet to the sail, and clipped the guy to the ring end of the sheet snap-shackle.  Makes it easier to flip/keep the lazy sheet on top of the pole.

And it allows you to remove the lazy guy in light air

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For the past 40 years I’ve simply whipped a stiff  1/2 ID black rubber hose ... perhaps 130 mm long ..to the foreguy eye on the bottom of the pole 

this little rubber finger faces foreword

 

it works.  Perhaps 75 percent success rate for keeping the sheet from slipping off the pole tip when using lightweight modern sheets  

this is the style pole end I use 

 

0373F1E4-6803-4ABB-AA84-D6796A252D9A.jpeg

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

For the past 40 years I’ve simply whipped a stiff  1/2 ID black rubber hose ... perhaps 130 mm long ..to the foreguy eye on the bottom of the pole 

this little rubber finger faces foreword

 

it works.  Perhaps 75 percent success rate for keeping the sheet from slipping off the pole tip when using lightweight modern sheets  

this is the style pole end I use 

 

0373F1E4-6803-4ABB-AA84-D6796A252D9A.jpeg

Does that have a trigger?, Doesn't look like it

 

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2 hours ago, sledracr said:

No need to go to the bow to flick the lazy sheet over the pole.  A competent bow-monkey can do it from the shrouds.

Yeah..., you may not want to have the monkey there either.

Certainly not at any serious level of racing and certainly not on anything larger than 35-40 feet.

 

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6 hours ago, sledracr said:

Yeah... I personally have never liked this approach. 

First, it's not necessary (it's a simple matter to flick the lazy sheet on top of the pole as part of the normal clean-up after the set...and/or as the bow person goes forward for the next gibe). 

But more than that, it can lead to disasters.  I've seen big loops of lazy-sheet get sucked into the pole-end as the guy is brought back, and it can create a real mess. 

 

tape the sheet and guy 1.5 m back and the lazy sheet problem goes away

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4 minutes ago, hobot said:
6 hours ago, AnotherSailor said:

Just sail a smaller boat so you don't need separate sheets and guys. 

The Foredeck Union would like to have a word with you....

AS, staye in welle litted publice spaces.....    juste sayeng.                             :)

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5 hours ago, sledracr said:

No need to go to the bow to flick the lazy sheet over the pole.  A competent bow-monkey can do it from the shrouds.

A competent trimmer can do it from near the turning block and still not lose sight of the spin trim

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7 hours ago, some dude said:

Foredeck rodeo.  A lost art. 

Cowboying the lazy sheet from the shrouds is the ticket.  Flicking a nice loop that drops over the pole end as the bow walks forward for the jibe is an art.  Probably a lost art

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4 hours ago, sledracr said:

I always clipped the sheet to the sail, and clipped the guy to the ring end of the sheet snap-shackle.  Makes it easier to flip/keep the lazy sheet on top of the pole.

Never, ever clip the sheet to the guy.  Both go on the sail independently, sheet on top. 

Lets you flick the sheet, lets you drop off the lazy guy, and gives you a back-up if the sheet shackle opens on a flog. 

Bowhuman Class 201.  

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1 minute ago, hobot said:
5 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

AS, staye in welle litted publice spaces.....    juste sayeng.                             :)

Hey, I'm not the Ian Dubin type!

I cane appreciatte that, butte you didde saye 'The Unione' wantned to speake with AS, I dointe no the ortheres.                               :)

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Yup, Guy clipped to sheet, as mentioned earlier one needs to have the ability to easily remove the Guy in Light air situations.

A-Sail Bowmen have no idea what they're missing....

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8 minutes ago, Snaggletooth said:

I cane appreciatte that, butte you didde saye 'The Unione' wantned to speake with AS, I dointe no the ortheres.                               :)

Our Shop Steward...

 

20150530_140704_zpsdwzc2nvp.jpg

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1 hour ago, hobot said:

Yup, Guy clipped to sheet, as mentioned earlier one needs to have the ability to easily remove the Guy in Light air situations.

A-Sail Bowmen have no idea what they're missing....

Nope.  You've got a high-load guy shackle clipped to a mid-range sheet shackle, or your sheet shackle is too heavy.  And if you shake loose the sheet shackle, you've got an expensive flag.   

See Post 31 for the right way to do it ... on my bow.   

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34 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Nope.  You've got a high-load guy shackle clipped to a mid-range sheet shackle, or your sheet shackle is too heavy.  And if you shake loose the sheet shackle, you've got an expensive flag.   

See Post 31 for the right way to do it ... on my bow.   

If the sheet and guy are each clipped to the sail, then don't you have two shackles to blow when dousing?  I've always used two high end Tylaskas for the job, and clipped the guy to the sheet.

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1 minute ago, Expat Canuck said:

If the sheet and guy are each clipped to the sail, then don't you have two shackles to blow when dousing?  I've always used two high end Tylaskas for the job, and clipped the guy to the sheet.

As Hobot said, we all have different ways of doing things.  Mine is probably more of an offshore than a round-the-buoys technique.

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You also need a pit man that doesn't understand what a topping lift actually does so every gybe its either to low and hits the pullpit or too high and hits you in the head.  He can then repeat that in the drop buy blowing it while you on the bow and hit you in the head again.

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3 hours ago, Expat Canuck said:

If the sheet and guy are each clipped to the sail, then don't you have two shackles to blow when dousing?  I've always used two high end Tylaskas for the job, and clipped the guy to the sheet.

Nah if you blow them you to make a trip to the bow on the next beat to re-run them.  Makes the cockpit dwellers fussy.  Ease guy behind the Genoa, use the lazy guy to start pulling down the aft leach either on the bow, or under main foot and over boom.  Then clip them all together while the sewer dude repacks/bands the kite and eats as many cookies as possible

Also, clipping sheet and guy both directly to the clew keeps the clew closer to the pole.  Guy shackle into sheet shackle makes the clew twice as far from the end of the pole.  Dont forget, we're using the pole to hold that corner of the sail nice and still. 

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5 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

An anchore totteng crazey olde man, withe suppossed millitarey/intellgilence/lawe enforcemente connectiones that fancies hisselfe an invincibelle enforcere ist the shoppe stewarte?         :)

Fuck I love this place.

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16 minutes ago, AnotherSailor said:

Oops, yeah did foredeck on a few boats, but forgot to pay the dues...

My card was confiscated!

Can't have had anything to do with my name.

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6 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:

An anchore totteng crazey olde man, withe suppossed millitarey/intellgilence/lawe enforcemente connectiones that fancies hisselfe an invincibelle enforcere ist the shoppe stewarte?         :)

Snaggy, the Fordeck Union is a bad ass group, Lord Dubin is one of the easy going ones.

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50 minutes ago, Mid said:

https://store.offshorespars.com/products/tylaska-intrepid-ii-outboard-pole-end

better pic , mouse over for detail

$1,12204  :o

LOL, I was going to mention I find Tylaska too expensive, but that is just ridiculous, you can get a small boat for that money...

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7 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

You also need a pit man that doesn't understand what a topping lift actually does so every gybe its either to low and hits the pullpit or too high and hits you in the head.  He can then repeat that in the drop buy blowing it while you on the bow and hit you in the head again.

Try being out on the pole end when instead of the gear being eased it is let go, first class ticket to the forestay

I learnt to stand on the opposite side of the forestay so you would not get clocked by the pole swinging thru and collecting the side of your head.

BTW I recall being on the end of a pole with the fitting photo above and when I spiked the kite the knuckle on the pole fitting snagged the clew ring and stretched the jaw fitting almost straight.

Never a dull moment on the bow of a big boat.....:D

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1 minute ago, Navig8tor said:

I learnt to stand on the opposite side of the forestay so you would not get clocked by the pole swinging thru and collecting the side of your head

Never a dull moment on the bow of a big boat.....:D

That was a very early lesson. So much less dangerous these days with assys.

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Double beak the pole on the hoist, make sure someone pulls the lazy sheet through as you work the guy back; this will solve your first trip.

From then on, post gybe make sure the lazy sheet is monitored whilst squaring the pole back as not to loose it under the pole. Once comfortable then flick the sheet around the guy in a few wraps to hold in place.

Its an art form, bloody good action!

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35 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:
1 hour ago, pickeringsv said:

That crazy old man Ian Dubin was a pretty good pitman in his youth and has been a good friend to me for over thirty years .... 

Too fukin bad for you! 

Did you go on long strolls in the alley with him, you shit slinging monkey! 

Winneng frendes and influenceng peopel aronde the globe................                       :)

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3 minutes ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

Double beak the pole on the hoist, make sure someone pulls the lazy sheet through as you work the guy back; this will solve your first trip.

From then on, post gybe make sure the lazy sheet is monitored whilst squaring the pole back as not to loose it under the pole. Once comfortable then flick the sheet around the guy in a few wraps to hold in place.

Its an art form, bloody good action!

I'm fairly sure that cowboying the lazy sheet has to be done with expert nonchalance, whilst lighting a smoke on the back off the bow.

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29 minutes ago, V21 said:

I'm fairly sure that cowboying the lazy sheet has to be done with expert nonchalance, whilst lighting a smoke on the back off the bow.

Hahaha

What I was trying to get to was to avoid the Cowboying.... Whilst the sheet is still in the on top missionary position you wrap is lazy end around the guy to avoid it falling off....

I quite fancy some symmetric sailing talking about all this  

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14 hours ago, Snaggletooth said:
14 hours ago, hobot said:

Our Shop Steward...

20150530_140704_zpsdwzc2nvp.jpg

An anchore totteng crazey olde man, withe suppossed millitarey/intellgilence/lawe enforcemente connectiones that fancies hisselfe an invincibelle enforcere ist the shoppe stewarte?         :)

That's him Snaggs, watch out for moonlit strolls. 

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10 hours ago, Bill E Goat said:

You also need a pit man that doesn't understand what a topping lift actually does so every gybe its either to low and hits the pullpit or too high and hits you in the head.  He can then repeat that in the drop buy blowing it while you on the bow and hit you in the head again.

A walk back to the pit with a winch handle can help to reinforce this lesson.

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2 hours ago, pickeringsv said:

That crazy old man Ian Dubin was a pretty good pitman in his youth and has been a good friend to me for over thirty years .... 

How's Gracie?

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6 hours ago, chuso007 said:

LOL, I was going to mention I find Tylaska too expensive, but that is just ridiculous, you can get a small boat for that money...

It is meant for boats 50ft and above, after all.

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This thread is giving me the chills.... meeting your mastman on the first day of a weekend, dip (penalty) pole gybes with a-kites, hearing the pole clatter on the forestay and just KNOW that the pit is now going to blow the topper.... good times....

 

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Back in the old days when you needed 6 guys on the foredeck we fixed that problem by having 2 poles. It was too hard to dip pole with a fixed inner forestay.

Each pole 33feet long and weighed in at about 80lbs each.

 

PS that wet soggy Dacron #Genoa weighed in at 275lbs1883124209_Ondine1980SORC.thumb.jpg.6cd57c9393229df9b4f42a1e854397cc.jpg

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21 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Nope.  You've got a high-load guy shackle clipped to a mid-range sheet shackle, or your sheet shackle is too heavy.  And if you shake loose the sheet shackle, you've got an expensive flag.   

See Post 31 for the right way to do it ... on my bow.   

If you're that shit at your job you can't close clips properly and they shake loose you're welcome to your bow. I don't want you near mine.

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1 hour ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

If you're that shit at your job you can't close clips properly and they shake loose you're welcome to your bow. I don't want you near mine.

Thank you for your comment on my abilities.  Clearly you are superior in all things nautical.  Unfortunately there seems little risk of our paths crossing, much to my personal loss, I'm sure.

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One of my best sailing moves ever was in Sydney Harbor.  We had chartered a Frers 42 to do the Sydney-Hobart in 1996.  Ron Jacobs had arranged for the charter and we were out practicing gybes.  I'm on the foredeck, we're about the gybe, and he says:  We're not ready.  But actually I am ready, grab the lazy sheet that was under the pole tip, and say:  Yee Haw, and send a loop in the sheet that flips over the end of the pole.  Clearly he had never been in the American West.  

To compound things, there was a submarine leaving the wharf directly in front of us.  ALL of the sailors had their backs to us and were waving goodbye to loved ones.  The clunk on their hull would have been monumental if the gybe had failed.

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