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Dylan's New Boat Anarchy


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17 minutes ago, Alan H said:

Whoah!...and I thought we had "current" in San Francisco Bay!  Yeah, you have to time it properly!

That dinghy sail around the bar is wonderful!  How far up the river can you go in the dinghy?

There are two rivers

 

Butley creek and the alde

 

You can get around 15 miles up until you get into the reeds

 

But you need to turn around just before  the top of the tide otherwise you will get to spend 10 hours sitting on the mud... been there and done that

Lots of birds to watch while you wait.

 

The weird thing is that as an East coaster I thought our tides were just tides.

We raced GP14s as kids.... I had four brothers and we had three of them in the family....wish I had thanked my dad properly for keeping three boats in racing condition.

Dinghy racing over here is less about boat speed and more about either avoiding the tide by sticking to the shallow bits when going against the tide or exploiting them by sailing down the middle. The courses were set by old blokes in Brightlingsea sailing clubs.... man they tested us... cunning bastards. Never heard of triangular courses until we started campaigning for the nationals.. where we got a good spanking by the guys with boat speed.

When working the shore the crew keeps a finger on the centre plate to feel when you touch... thecrew calls the tack and raises the centre plate as you roll the boat off ground.

 

d

 

Ps... writing this at anchor in pyefleet creek on the Colne where we sailed as kids

 

 

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decided to make a night of it   left grimsby fish dock at first light friday port side light went west - but I had a set of temporary ones on board motorsailed all day then tw

I used to sail one of these   then in mid life one of these   now...... a telephone box on small tug    

four  words I do not care

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Was up at maldon at the top of the Blackwater today

Ran aground a bit

 

As I was riding the ebb back down the engine started running a bit hot and steamy

 

I checked the intake filter

 

Worms...

Then I checked the impeller... that was fine

 

But engine still running hot

 

Dismantled the intake down to the through Hull

 

It was also blocked

 

Worms and strange tubes

 

Fek

https://ibb.co/4dTZqSB

20210528-205536.jpg

 

Fek

 

Must be more diligent

 

engine now running fine

 

d

 

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26 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

Was up at maldon at the top of the Blackwater today

Ran aground a bit

 

As I was riding the ebb back down the engine started running a bit hot and steamy

 

I checked the intake filter

 

Worms...

Then I checked the impeller... that was fine

 

But engine still running hot

 

Dismantled the intake down to the through Hull

 

It was also blocked

 

Worms and strange tubes

 

Fek

https://ibb.co/4dTZqSB

 

 

Fek

 

Must be more diligent

 

engine now running fine

 

d

 

OK, sailing in brackish water and drying out is losing it's allure...

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52 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

I think I will have to use the outboard for the shallow stuff

 

D

How low is your intake? I know you say you bumped, did the intake touch bottom?

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Brought a boatload of those tube critters back from Melbourne about ten years ago, the shells are hard and tough, there was a slug inside them that looked like something out of Dune..

Had that crap inside the cooling channels on the saildrive, that was fun..

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5 hours ago, dylan winter said:

I googled tube weed

Got a page full of advice about spliffs

D

Yes, don't buy tube weed. Apart from your wildlife (what there is left of it) not eating people, you have it pretty good there.

 

Also living on the mud for days on end would be a little depressing.

 

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And don't get me started on that Commander's seat at the exterior helm. 

My point was that it's a pilot house dreadnought. 

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10 hours ago, Ajax said:

This is the boat Dylan should have bought. 

 

It is quite a thing for sure

And thank you for thinking of me

It does have certain lumpen similarities with the as yet un-renamed fisher 25

however

Few things against it

It costs a bit more than 18k

It is outside the 35 foot size limit for the moorings in waldringfield

Nowhere for the outboard bracket for when I get fisherman's crud around the prop or when the volvo 3030 decides to go pop and start eating yet more  spares made of unobtainium

And.....way too much of a requirement for anal fettling for a boat that is ready for action 365 days a year in a wetish coldish country

D

 

 

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1 hour ago, dylan winter said:

And.....way too much of a requirement for anal fettling for a boat that is ready for action 365 days a year in a wetish coldish country

Yeah this. The sight of all that wood makes me feel like I need some good drugs and a nice quiet lie down. I'd not want that boat as a gift - well maybe but I'd sell it ASAP.

FKT

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  • 7 months later...

this morning on the Deben was a real cracker.

 

Jill hates the diesel engine and I am no great fan of it. It is smelly. It is demanding. Every journey starts witrh lifting the floorboards under the wheel house and hanging upside down like a bat. In the past year I have  replaced four fuel filters....diesel bug now vanquished. Two oil filters, the impeller x 2. The gearbox is using oil so to fix that the engine has to come out - and I do not want to  put it  back in.

 

So I have been in touch with the bloke from here

https://lightningcraft.co.uk/

this 10kw (14hp) unit will fit on the old engine beds.

3.png

 

 

It needs 48 volts.

I have access to a pair of these

https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products/batteries/power-24-3500/2106-00.html

which will run in series. The chargers are 350 watts. and will fully charge the batteries in 8 to 12 hours.

I have room for two 100 watt solar panels

When travelling I can often use marinas but I usually keep my boat on a mooring.

I am thinking of buying a 2kw suitcase generators for when shore power and solar let me down.....

\i sm not sure i could life with a wind generator.

For long calm days I have a 6hp long shaft Tohatsu outboard that at half chat shoves the boat through flat water at 3.5 knots.

 

Dylan

 

PS I only have one more leak to fix and I planning on getting a pair of  legs for the boat.

 

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DON'T DO IT DYLAN!!!

The Whale is a motor-sailer, not an auxiliary sailboat. You cannot make enough electrons to push the Whale along. If you were sailing a boat like Bull's, easily driven and tied to a dock every night for charging, sure. But you're not.

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7 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

DON'T DO IT DYLAN!!!

The Whale is a motor-sailer, not an auxiliary sailboat. You cannot make enough electrons to push the Whale along. If you were sailing a boat like Bull's, easily driven and tied to a dock every night for charging, sure. But you're not.

Having sailed her for a year I have learned a lot. 

As you say, she is a motor  sailor and as such she motorsails astonishingly well. Reaching, fetching and beating with the main engine on tickover or the outboard at a third revs really gets the apparent wind going.

Think of the quiet.... unless the genset is running.

D

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20 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

DON'T DO IT DYLAN!!!

The Whale is a motor-sailer, not an auxiliary sailboat. You cannot make enough electrons to push the Whale along. If you were sailing a boat like Bull's, easily driven and tied to a dock every night for charging, sure. But you're not.

Have to agree here Dylan, "our boat" isn't really suited to a genset cluttering things up, that and the fact you can't just top it up from a jerrycan to get you home, electric doesn't work like that.

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1 minute ago, 167149 said:

Have to agree here Dylan, "our boat" isn't really suited to a genset cluttering things up, that and the fact you can't just top it up from a jerrycan to get you home, electric doesn't work like that.

I have the Tohatsu - which does just need a jerry can to get me home.  A tank full at half chat will run her at nearly four knots for ten hours.

With pilot running and me sitting on the foredeck I can hardly hear  it.

I agree though, 36 hours bashing into a headwind and oncoming seas will not be possible. Running away, hunkering down and waiting will be the chosen reaction.  To spend 36 hours with the engine on is a failure of planning.

 

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I expect to keep the boat for another decade - fitness willing.

The engine would be unlikely to last that long - besides it has to come out for the gear box leak.

A  decade without the smell of hot engine and a happy wife is a small price to pay for any depreciation,

D

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53 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

four  words

I do not care

With you on that one.

If your use-case means that you plan on spending a fair amount of time in marinas, you have adequate range to get from one to the next regardless of method (ie the o/b in a pinch) then what the hell. Go for it.

The PV panels will contribute the SQRT(Fuck_all) to engine power consumption/range so better calculate the hotel loads and make adequate provision for them. I have 2 x 130A AGM batteries and 400W of PV panels for my hotel load. That's plenty for a small 22 litre refrigerator, LED cabin lighting and my array of electronic crap. Separate start battery.

Were it me I'd remove the engine & g/box, wash them down thoroughly, flush thoroughly and then wrap in industrial Glad Wrap. Store in shed. Sell with the boat in the future.

Who knows, if battery tech keeps improving and costs drop then the range issue becomes less of a factor - PROVIDED you're hopping from one land base to another. Wouldn't work where I live but sounds like it might well where you are.

I'd love to graft an electric drive to the front of my Sabb controllable pitch prop & transmission. Just for fun.

FKT

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4 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

If you weren't going to keep the diesel, you may be able to make a deal with a diesel service place - they take it out neatly and they can keep it.

the yard here has done fisher engine transplants. The boats  are bastards as the engine has  to come out through the offset companionway.  A lot of the engine has to be dismantled to get it out.

D

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1 minute ago, dylan winter said:

This is my second off centre companion way deathtrap vessel

Do you ever get the feeling that you're being stalked by nameless existential doom?

I can see how that might be kind of a kinky thrill.

- DSK

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I see new opportunities for KTL wildlife footage. Everybody knows you see more wildlife undersail, especially in glassy conditions.

This 5 minute vid of small boats under paddle and e-propulsion is delightful and shows a close encounter with a heron. No way you'd get this footage with  gas outboard. The music and soft voices are wonderful. 

 

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16 hours ago, dylan winter said:

I expect to keep the boat for another decade - fitness willing.

The engine would be unlikely to last that long - besides it has to come out for the gear box leak.

A  decade without the smell of hot engine and a happy wife is a small price to pay for any depreciation,

D

This is why I say he should do it. Resale value doesn't enter into the equation, really. Dylan is on his pension, not striving for retirement like most of us.  Hell, a stroke could catch him in the next 10 years. (I bite my tongue as I say this) 

What makes an electric auxiliary successful is whether the owner has the luxury of time. Time to wait out currents, tides and doldrums for conditions that favor the boat's limitations. Dylan has this luxury. He also has skill and experience with the crazy tides and currents.

If these anonymous members of the Reform Club wish to sponsor the conversion, we should just stay out of the way and enjoy the show.

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9 minutes ago, Ajax said:

If these anonymous members of the Reform Club wish to sponsor the conversion, we should just stay out of the way and enjoy the show.

Wot?  This is Cruising Anarchy.  Predicting plague, pestilence and other forms of doom are our lifeblood.

It's obvious that applying volts to the temples of Dylan's electric motor will cause the thing to take life like Frankenstein, form murderous intent as it exists the companionway of doom, and then suck the blood from every living soul.

It would be wicked of us not to warn Dylan of this, because without prior notice he not have his camera running might film his demise in the Great Fisher Massacre.

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16 minutes ago, Ajax said:

This is why I say he should do it. Resale value doesn't enter into the equation, really. Dylan is on his pension, not striving for retirement like most of us.  Hell, a stroke could catch him in the next 10 years. (I bite my tongue as I say this) 

What makes an electric auxiliary successful is whether the owner has the luxury of time. Time to wait out currents, tides and doldrums for conditions that favor the boat's limitations. Dylan has this luxury. He also has skill and experience with the crazy tides and currents.

If these anonymous members of the Reform Club wish to sponsor the conversion, we should just stay out of the way and enjoy the show.

More Garrick types than Reform I should think.

Discussions about forum reactions are often on the agenda at their  second Thursday meet ups.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

More Garrick types than Reform I should think.

Discussions about forum reactions are often on the agenda at their  second Thursday meet ups.

 

 

 

I have limited exposure to classic literature. You should be impressed that I was able to make even that weak joke. :)

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2 hours ago, dylan winter said:

This is my second off centre companion way deathtrap vessel

If they're off-set to opposite sides you have nothing to worry about.

On the other hand...

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21 hours ago, dylan winter said:

this morning on the Deben was a real cracker.

 

Jill hates the diesel engine and I am no great fan of it. It is smelly. It is demanding. Every journey starts witrh lifting the floorboards under the wheel house and hanging upside down like a bat. In the past year I have  replaced four fuel filters....diesel bug now vanquished. Two oil filters, the impeller x 2. The gearbox is using oil so to fix that the engine has to come out - and I do not want to  put it  back in.

 

So I have been in touch with the bloke from here

https://lightningcraft.co.uk/

this 10kw (14hp) unit will fit on the old engine beds.

3.png

 

 

It needs 48 volts.

I have access to a pair of these

https://www.torqeedo.com/en/products/batteries/power-24-3500/2106-00.html

which will run in series. The chargers are 350 watts. and will fully charge the batteries in 8 to 12 hours.

I have room for two 100 watt solar panels

When travelling I can often use marinas but I usually keep my boat on a mooring.

I am thinking of buying a 2kw suitcase generators for when shore power and solar let me down.....

\i sm not sure i could life with a wind generator.

For long calm days I have a 6hp long shaft Tohatsu outboard that at half chat shoves the boat through flat water at 3.5 knots.

 

Dylan

 

PS I only have one more leak to fix and I planning on getting a pair of  legs for the boat.

 

That's clever, it makes electrifying older boats relatively easy... the cost of batteries issue stays so only OK if your engine is truly auxiliary. You can't recharge with the propeller so that's a minus for those who cross oceans.

Dylan, do you know how much does it cost in the UK to exchange an old 18 HP diesel for a new one?

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9 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

That's clever, it makes electrifying older boats relatively easy... the cost of batteries issue stays so only OK if your engine is truly auxiliary. You can't recharge with the propeller so that's a minus for those who cross oceans.

Dylan, do you know how much does it cost in the UK to exchange an old 18 HP diesel for a new one?

It comes with the terminals for 48 volt and a throttle.

 

Mine is 28 hp

But an engine swap is between 6 and 8 k Sterling.

Tidal charging would be marvelous but I doubt that 1.5 knots would generate much torque

D

 

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interesting little math calculator to covert HP to Amps.

https://www.inchcalculator.com/horsepower-to-amps-calculator/

A bit trickier to guesstimate how much power needed to get to hull speed - one heuristic is 1hp/ton of boat displacement. 

on a 5 ton boat, therefore 5 HP, you're using 95 amps.  So an 800 AH bank would run you 8 hours. FLA is gonna be quite heavy...

Now, on my boat, where I need something like an ability to motor at hull speed for 8 hours (race requirements) and I'm more like 9 tons, I'd need to be using 175amps, or a 1400AH battery bank. $13k worth, and 460 pounds of LIFEPO4 batts.  Unfortunately, electric propulsion isn't ready for that use-case.

Might be the sweetest thing ever for Dylan.

 

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7 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

..you're using 95 amps.  So an 800 AH bank would run you 8 hours. FLA is gonna be quite heavy...

iiuc, FLA only allow 40% discharge. So 8 hours needs a 2,000 AH FLA bank.

9 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I'd need to be using 175amps, or a 1400AH battery bank. $13k worth, and 460 pounds of LIFEPO4 batts.  Unfortunately, electric propulsion isn't ready for that use-case.

I'm amazed its that cheap. just 13 boat bucks. I wonder what your existing auxiliary (plus tanks, fuel, exhaust, etc) all weighs in as. Of course - charging all that an entirely different matter. lol.

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29 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

interesting little math calculator to covert HP to Amps.

You can't convert horsepower into Amps, that's a bit like converting apples into oranges...

HP is a unit of power and Amperes a unit of electrical intensity.

The calculator seem to be geared toward alternative current, but you can trick it by into a continuous current calculator by using a power factor of 1 and a single phase.

Or more simply 1 HP = 732 Watt

P = U x I

so I = P / U

For dylan, it's all SI, no need to convert so very simply : I = 10 000 / 48 = 208A then add 10% for inefficiency and call it 250A to be sure!

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1 hour ago, dylan winter said:

It comes with the terminals for 48 volt and a throttle.

 

Mine is 28 hp

But an engine swap is between 6 and 8 k Sterling.

Tidal charging would be marvelous but I doubt that 1.5 knots would generate much torque

D

 

So not like for like but if you have to pay for everything, you can forego the smell and the noise at the price of less power for a slightly bigger budget.

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8 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

For dylan, it's all SI, no need to convert so very simply : I = 10 000 / 48 = 208A then add 10% for inefficiency and call it 250A to be sure!

so. 250A for 8 hours requires 2,000 AH?

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3 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

..you can forego the smell and the noise at the price of less power for a slightly bigger budget.

also vibration. don't forget the teeth rattling vibration.

and heat. heat too. although in Dylan's case this is probably a positive.

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13 minutes ago, floater said:

so. 250A for 8 hours requires 2,000 AH?

That's at full power so it is suitable for dimensioning wiring, not for estimating average consumption, nobody in his right mind would run an electric engine powered by batteries at full power for a long time.

If you say that he cruises @5HP that's about 3.5kW (3 or 4 knots may be, not sure), the battery he linked to are at 3.5kW.h so he needs one battery per hour of autonomy... thus it gets expensive pretty quick if he wants/needs some range. With his setup, he's got probably about 2 hours at a slow cruising speed.

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2 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

Dylan should strike up a friendship with a guy who races cars. Those guys take engines apart all the time. No big deal.

'Zacty - Top Fuel teams strip a blown Hemi to the bare block and rebuild it in 45 minutes. :D

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

'Zacty - Top Fuel teams strip a blown Hemi to the bare block and rebuild it in 45 minutes. :D

First though they have to remove all the pipes n belts and the gear box and then bring the engine up through the pilot house floor, out the door and out the cockpit.

That will slow them up a bit I imagine

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

You can't convert horsepower into Amps, that's a bit like converting apples into oranges...

Not really.

Volts X Amps = Watts

Watts ~= HP

So with any 2 numbers you can calculate the 3rd which gives you a HP equivalent.

HP to Amps is kinda like HP to torque

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I think we're running the risk of turning Dylans electric Fisher into a diesel cock-up. 

Forget your diesel sailing life, Dylan. That's all gone (the stink and 5 kts into oblivion). 

Your are in a new world of energy conservation. Just do it, be that person. Take the pledge. 

Honda generators and Toohotso outboards are failure. 

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37 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Not really.

Volts X Amps = Watts

Watts ~= HP

So with any 2 numbers you can calculate the 3rd which gives you a HP equivalent.

HP to Amps is kinda like HP to torque

Yes but that's not a conversion as the 2 numbers aren't separated only by inconsistent units.

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50 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

I think we're running the risk of turning Dylans electric Fisher into a diesel cock-up. 

Forget your diesel sailing life, Dylan. That's all gone (the stink and 5 kts into oblivion). 

Your are in a new world of energy conservation. Just do it, be that person. Take the pledge. 

Honda generators and Toohotso outboards are failure. 

Agree.

I shall try not to use either of them.

It should add to the challenge and satisfaction.

I am currently mothering about mppt controllers and panels in series

D

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33 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

Agree.

I shall try not to use either of them.

It should add to the challenge and satisfaction.

I am currently mothering about mppt controllers and panels in series

D

and rowing sweeps, don't forget rowing sweeps!

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Seriously Dylan, you should try to get some sponsorship from a lithium battery maker, you have a high enough profile and your project is a lot closer to the reality of most sailors than the usual YouTube warriors…

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

and rowing sweeps, don't forget rowing sweeps!

Ha ha - even Kevin of 'How to sail Oceans' fame broke down & fitted an outboard to 'RUTH AVERY'...

FKT

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One thing people forget when converting diesel hp to electrical watts is losses. 

Your diesel engine feeds a gear box, a lot of power is lost there. It also feeds alternators. Water pumps, and other ancillaries . You get nowhere near the rated power at the prop.

An electric drive has none of those losses, though they aren't 100% efficient, you get a lot more of the rated power at the prop.

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12 hours ago, dylan winter said:

First though they have to remove all the pipes n belts and the gear box and then bring the engine up through the pilot house floor, out the door and out the cockpit.

That will slow them up a bit I imagine

Then they'll realise that the tool they need is in the car, parked at the top of the hill behind The Maybush, and they need to row ashore again. Oh, and the tide's doing the best part of 2 knots.

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On 1/13/2022 at 8:44 AM, dylan winter said:

A  decade without the smell of hot engine and a happy wife is priceless

FTFY

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12 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Ha ha - even Kevin of 'How to sail Oceans' fame broke down & fitted an outboard to 'RUTH AVERY'...

FKT

In Kevin's defense, he's been sailing that same boat for YEARS with no engine and circumnavigated it that way. He has recently fitted the outboard bracket and a hard dodge because he's getting older and things aren't as easy for him as they used to be.

It's different than a sailing newbie who sails sans engine for 6 months and then realizes he can't do it.

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23 hours ago, dylan winter said:

First though they have to remove all the pipes n belts and the gear box and then bring the engine up through the pilot house floor, out the door and out the cockpit.

That will slow them up a bit I imagine

I take the point, but what stimulated the thought was this comment on another forum:

I helped a friend haul out a seized up 3 cyl gen from the bilge of his Gulfstar this fall. We removed most of the bits we could (head, flywheel, etc.) and he had a chainfall to get it up the companionway, and then we just ooched it around the cockpit on 2x6s and other bits of wood and finally onto a furniture dolly on the finger pier. The hardest part was getting it up in the back of the pickup. It was still heavy as crap.

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7 hours ago, Ajax said:

In Kevin's defense, he's been sailing that same boat for YEARS with no engine and circumnavigated it that way. He has recently fitted the outboard bracket and a hard dodge because he's getting older and things aren't as easy for him as they used to be.

It's different than a sailing newbie who sails sans engine for 6 months and then realizes he can't do it.

All true but the point remains.

He demonstrated that he could do it.

Then didn't want to. Too much aggravation going against the tide in confined spaces, too much hassle picking up a mooring ball etc.

The Pardeys were quite notorious for their attitude to motors - and cadging tows from those with one of those infernal devices.

Anyway, it's all personal choice and everyone is quite entitled to change their minds if personal circumstance changes.

FKT

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14 hours ago, The Q said:

One thing people forget when converting diesel hp to electrical watts is losses. 

Your diesel engine feeds a gear box, a lot of power is lost there. It also feeds alternators. Water pumps, and other ancillaries . You get nowhere near the rated power at the prop.

An electric drive has none of those losses, though they aren't 100% efficient, you get a lot more of the rated power at the prop.

Well, that's easy. Put an alternator on the electric motor and it can generate its own power. Why hasn't anyone thought of that before?

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34 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Well, that's easy. Put an alternator on the electric motor and it can generate its own power. Why hasn't anyone thought of that before?

I am perpetually amazed that no one has done that.

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11 minutes ago, slap said:
46 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Well, that's easy. Put an alternator on the electric motor and it can generate its own power. Why hasn't anyone thought of that before?

I am perpetually amazed that no one has done that.

Oh, they've done it. But nobody's heard about it because Big Energy gets to them first. Same deal with the 80mpg carburetor. And cow magnets. 

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11 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

So Dylan is calling us a bunch of thespians?

He didn't need to get insulting.

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