Dylan's New Boat Anarchy

[slap 445]

4 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

We all own a piece of her. 

Except for the fuel tank.

[SloopJonB 8,862]

And the head compartment now that Dylan has scrubbed it a few times.

[IStream 2,484]

And an 8" diameter circular section of the cockpit sole.

[Sharon MS Kylin 4]

Ha ha, yeah definitely not the fuel tank, although I’m selling a 45’ MOBO right now with a similar problem. This thread has been really useful, can’t get access to the tanks so giving Dylan’s Marine 16 a shot.

[Ajax 2,141]

The boat looks much bigger than 25 feet. 

[Ishmael 6,675]

28 minutes ago, Ajax said:

The boat looks much bigger than 25 feet. 

It also weighs much bigger than 25 feet. It's close to the design displacement of our boat.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fisher-25-ms

[Panope 394]

1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

It also weighs much bigger than 25 feet. It's close to the design displacement of our boat.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fisher-25-ms

47% ballast.

I don't recall ever seeing a motor sailor with that much.

Impressive.

[Ishmael 6,675]

48 minutes ago, Panope said:

47% ballast.

I don't recall ever seeing a motor sailor with that much.

Impressive.

Yup, it will go to the bottom like a stone.

[Panope 394]

2 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Yup, it will go to the bottom like a stone.

...and remain perfectly upright for the whole trip.

[TwoLegged 1,224]

1 hour ago, Panope said:

3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Yup, it will go to the bottom like a stone.

...and remain perfectly upright for the whole trip.

So no need to worry about the offset companionway  

[Ishmael 6,675]

1 hour ago, Panope said:

...and remain perfectly upright for the whole trip.

That's what the sails are for, it's like fletching on an arrow.

[SemiSalt 221]

With SA/Disp = 9.5, it will give new meaning to the phrase "sticky in the light." 

We should keep in mind that the owner isn't complaining about the boat's sailing characteristics. 

[TwoLegged 1,224]

3 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

With SA/Disp = 9.5, it will give new meaning to the phrase "sticky in the light." 

I read a review which said that the sails helped the boat move at a steady, slow plod so long as you were off the wind in at least force 4 ... and that in other conditions the sails are a stabilising device.

As you note, the owner is happy with that as the trade-off for a heated wheelhouse.

Personally, I find being in an enclosed space in close proximity to a diesel engine to be a miserable experience.  I'd like it with a silent drive system, but the noise and vibration of being indoors with a diesel does my head in.

[The Lucky One 47]

Every boat's a compromise...

[SloopJonB 8,862]

2 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

With SA/Disp = 9.5, it will give new meaning to the phrase "sticky in the light." 

We should keep in mind that the owner isn't complaining about the boat's sailing characteristics. 

He's sailing in the North Sea - I don't think light wind figures into the equation.

[Steam Flyer 5,449]

1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

2 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

With SA/Disp = 9.5, it will give new meaning to the phrase "sticky in the light." 

I read a review which said that the sails helped the boat move at a steady, slow plod so long as you were off the wind in at least force 4 ... and that in other conditions the sails are a stabilising device.

As you note, the owner is happy with that as the trade-off for a heated wheelhouse.

Personally, I find being in an enclosed space in close proximity to a diesel engine to be a miserable experience.  I'd like it with a silent drive system, but the noise and vibration of being indoors with a diesel does my head in.

Wonder why, I don't mind a low RPM diesel chugging along in the back ground. Turbo screeching and heavy vibration, yeah hate it. I worked around loud machinery most of my life and strongly dislike the sound of vroom-vroom engines etc etc.

Alignment and good motor mounts make a BIG difference.

Just now, SloopJonB said:

He's sailing in the North Sea - I don't think light wind figures into the equation.

Yeah but it still happens. Having an extra boost in a tideway or head winds, or even just having the extra steering authority of the prop stream over the rudder... all reason to have a RELIABLE diesel tucked in there. And that's not a big ask or a difficult achievement IMHO

FB- Doug

[TwoLegged 1,224]

17 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Wonder why, I don't mind a low RPM diesel chugging along in the back ground. Turbo screeching and heavy vibration, yeah hate it.

Cos I go out on the water to enjoy the sensations of the sea, including the sounds.  The noise of an an engine wrecks that for me

[Elegua 965]

1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Cos I go out on the water to enjoy the sensations of the sea, including the sounds.  The noise of an an engine wrecks that for me

Not just engine noises, but any appliances like electrical gadgets.  This is the nice thing about having foot pumps and hand coffee grinders. I think it's taken me 10 years to put 3-400hrs on my engine. 

[Ajax 2,141]

1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Cos I go out on the water to enjoy the sensations of the sea, including the sounds.  The noise of an an engine wrecks that for me

Dylan is on a documentary mission.  When he's home be sails like the rest of us. 

[SloopJonB 8,862]

1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Yeah but it still happens. Having an extra boost in a tideway or head winds, or even just having the extra steering authority of the prop stream over the rudder... all reason to have a RELIABLE diesel tucked in there. And that's not a big ask or a difficult achievement IMHO

FB- Doug

In a motorsailer like a Fisher I'd say the diesel takes precedence over the sails - that's why it comes first in the name.

I'd expect the engine is going to save your ass more often than the sails. 

[Ishmael 6,675]

3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

In a motorsailer like a Fisher I'd say the diesel takes precedence over the sails - that's why it comes first in the name.

I'd expect the engine is going to save your ass more often than the sails. 

Plus "sailermotor" sounds stupid.

[dylan winter 1,575]

21 hours ago, SemiSalt said:

With SA/Disp = 9.5, it will give new meaning to the phrase "sticky in the light." 

We should keep in mind that the owner isn't complaining about the boat's sailing characteristics. 

I sailed one of these for five years

I have the patience of Job

plus i have the tides on my side

that aside the fisher sails far better than expected

The long low rig and long keel means that she sails on rails. She is closer winded than I thought too.

The radar is going, the dodgers are off, the life raft on the cabin top has gone, I am contemplating removing the lower safety rail, I have an oversize genoa.

Point the boat where you want it to go, set the sails, bungee the tiller in the middle and she will steer by the wind for hours and through a decent chop.

I will also be towing my little clinker dinghy just to slow things up even more

If I was in a rush I would have bought a small  cat

Hirondelle mk 3

dylan

[IStream 2,484]

Goodonya, Dylan.

[Kris Cringle 1,254]

I just texted with a GenXer friend. Caught between how to books and Youtube at his age. He's trying to hook up a smart thermostat but is confused by instructions (which can be confusing). 

 

In a couple of blocks of text, I explained what he needed without all the other crap that instructions have to have, because I know where he 'is' in his mind.

 

He texted back: Makes sense. Thanks. Saved me hours on YouTube. 

 

Youtube, the great new timewaster with the addition that what you click, may be totally wrong. 

 

Did anyone ever write a successful How To book, that was all wrong? 

 

 

[ride2live 43]

56 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

I just texted with a GenXer friend. Caught between how to books and Youtube at his age. He's trying to hook up a smart thermostat but is confused by instructions (which can be confusing). 

 

In a couple of blocks of text, I explained what he needed without all the other crap that instructions have to have, because I know where he 'is' in his mind.

 

He texted back: Makes sense. Thanks. Saved me hours on YouTube. 

 

Youtube, the great new timewaster with the addition that what you click, may be totally wrong. 

 

Did anyone ever write a successful How To book, that was all wrong? 

 

 

Hooking up smart thermostats is easy, figuring out how to use said thermostat not so much....

[TheDragon 586]

I hate ours, installed by my wife while I was away (tolerating this kind of thing is required to keep a marriage intact). Basically I now use it like the old mercury-switch manual it replaced, just regularly walk past it and change it to what I want. The only utility so far is that if we head off on a trip and I forget to set it way down, my wife can do it using her smartphone.

[IStream 2,484]

On the bright side, there's a good chance you've now got a microphone monitoring your household for entities unknown.

Only half joking. 

[Ajax 2,141]

57 minutes ago, IStream said:

On the bright side, there's a good chance you've now got a microphone monitoring your household for entities unknown.

Only half joking. 

Although Google Nest thermostats can be hacked, they do not contain microphones or cameras (thank goodness.)

If hacked, the hackers would gain access to the details of your home's environment such as your use of the HVAC system, humidity and temperature, and of course whatever descriptive name you gave your thermostat.

Tesla "gifted" me a Nest thermostat when I had my solar panels and Powerwall installed. I have mixed feelings about it. I do not have a Ring doorbell or any Nest cameras, especially not looking inward into the house.

[IStream 2,484]

https://www.cnet.com/news/google-calls-nests-hidden-microphone-an-error/

Okay, technically not the thermostat but Google has a checkered history of disclosure on this.

[Ajax 2,141]

6 minutes ago, IStream said:

https://www.cnet.com/news/google-calls-nests-hidden-microphone-an-error/

That's Nest, not the thermostat. The problem is, the thermostat presents an easily hacked attack surface in your home network with which everything else can be hacked.

https://www.computerworld.com/article/2476599/black-hat-nest-thermostat-turned-into-a-smart-spy-in-15-seconds.html

If you don't have anything else in the house that uses cameras or microphones like the Nest, Alexa, Ring, etc. then the risk is low.  I don't and won't have any of those devices in my house. I put a dot of tape over my laptop camera.

I have a couple of security cameras that look outward around my property. I know my shit isn't secure enough and I'm working on that. I might start paying for a VPN.

[toddster 517]

About as smart as my thermostat gets:

In the morning, open the damper and throw some small pieces of pine in the fire.

Before bed, throw a big piece of oak in the fire and close the damper way down.

Oh, and it turns out I have to take off the "smart" Apple Watch before I split any firewood.  "It looks like you've taken a bad fall! I'm calling 911 unless you scroll down the screen and press the OK button."  Of course, it waits until you've gathered up a big armload of wood and can't reach the damned watch before it starts going apeshit.

Some technologies just don't mix well.

[IStream 2,484]

I'd say a big splitting maul and an Apple watch go well together under certain circumstances.

[Ajax 2,141]

The sad thing is, like @toddster, I use a wood pellet stove for my winter heat. It is not tied to the Nest thermostat at all. In the summer, we barely run the air conditioning. Makes me wonder why I bothered to install the thing at all.

Probably because it was free.

[IStream 2,484]

26 minutes ago, Ajax said:

That's Nest, not the thermostat. The problem is, the thermostat presents an easily hacked attack surface in your home network with which everything else can be hacked.

https://www.computerworld.com/article/2476599/black-hat-nest-thermostat-turned-into-a-smart-spy-in-15-seconds.html

If you don't have anything else in the house that uses cameras or microphones like the Nest, Alexa, Ring, etc. then the risk is low.  I don't and won't have any of those devices in my house. I put a dot of tape over my laptop camera.

I have a couple of security cameras that look outward around my property. I know my shit isn't secure enough and I'm working on that. I might start paying for a VPN.

I've got my IoT stuff on a separate VLAN that's walled off from the sensitive stuff but it's a neverending game of whackamole with updates to keep things relatively secure. 

We were gifted an Amazon Echo by a friend who works for Amazon. My wife and kids insisted on installing it but the shine wore off pretty quickly and it started having "network problems" one day. I figured that if they complained I'd fix the "network problems" but they never did. Now it sits collecting dust and unpowered.

[olaf hart 647]

I am married to a smart thermostat, her temperature range tolerance is half of mine...

And she knows everything that’s going on in the house.

[dylan winter 1,575]

55 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

I am married to a smart thermostat, her temperature range tolerance is half of mine...

And she knows everything that’s going on in the house.

I am happy at low temps

Celtic blood

Jill needs higher temps than me

but then I have thermal inertia on my side

d

Epic Fred drift here ... you guys make me proud

it is one of the endearing aspects of this place

[Kris Cringle 1,254]

Smart thermo's are handy to keep tabs on a few buildings I take care of. I can know at a glance if the heat is working. Being a builder, subzero temperatures make me nervous. Frozen pipes are one of my nightmares. 

Oh, and now mice make me nervous. Not because they chew Romex wire down to the copper at random, for fun. It's that they also can eat your Pex tubing, just for something to do.

Once they chew deep enough and it starts leaking, they stop (probably startled, eh?).

Then water sprays out for several feet in all directions, in a very fine mist, in your ceiling or wall cavity. You don't hear it or even see it for several days. It takes a long time for all that moisture to slowly leech through plaster and wallboard. Maybe weeks. Then like a horror movie in the room, everything turns soggy. 

 

[Fah Kiew Tu 2,189]

22 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Smart thermo's are handy to keep tabs on a few buildings I take care of. I can know at a glance if the heat is working. Being a builder, subzero temperatures make me nervous. Frozen pipes are one of my nightmares. 

Oh, and now mice make me nervous. Not because they chew Romex wire down to the copper at random, for fun. It's that they also can eat your Pex tubing, just for something to do.

Once they chew deep enough and it starts leaking, they stop (probably startled, eh?).

Then water sprays out for several feet in all directions, in a very fine mist, in your ceiling or wall cavity. You don't hear it or even see it for several days. It takes a long time for all that moisture to slowly leech through plaster and wallboard. Maybe weeks. Then like a horror movie in the room, everything turns soggy. 

 

You've just confirmed my prejudice against that stuff. I'll stick to running copper water pipes through my wall cavities.

FKT

[Panope 394]

3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

You've just confirmed my prejudice against that stuff. I'll stick to running copper water pipes through my wall cavities.

FKT

Me Too.

I came THIS close to going with Pex a couple years ago on a new house build.  Ultimately, copper won that decision.

We don't often have pipe freezing weather.

But then again, I don't let rats into my walls, either.

[European Bloke 513]

11 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

Smart thermo's are handy to keep tabs on a few buildings I take care of. I can know at a glance if the heat is working. Being a builder, subzero temperatures make me nervous. Frozen pipes are one of my nightmares. 

Oh, and now mice make me nervous. Not because they chew Romex wire down to the copper at random, for fun. It's that they also can eat your Pex tubing, just for something to do.

Once they chew deep enough and it starts leaking, they stop (probably startled, eh?).

Then water sprays out for several feet in all directions, in a very fine mist, in your ceiling or wall cavity. You don't hear it or even see it for several days. It takes a long time for all that moisture to slowly leech through plaster and wallboard. Maybe weeks. Then like a horror movie in the room, everything turns soggy. 

 

When we refurbed our house the plumber offered copper or PEX. I chose copper. Half way through the job he admitted to me that he's now managed to get virtually all of the PEX out of his own house and he'll be much happier when it's all gone. Then he launched into a series of long stories of all the PEX disasters he attends...

[Ajax 2,141]

I have copper rough-ins to all of my service points, so there are no plastics inside the walls. Then, I have that gray Qest polybutylene plumbing throughout the crawl space.

LOL...I can already hear the gasps and head shaking. Yes, I know this stuff is bad. The reason it fails is because it's not chemically cross linked to withstand chlorine. I'm on an unchlorinated well, which is why it is unaffected. I plan on replacing all the Qest with PEX. When I have a failure, all that happens is the crawlspace gets wet. I have hot and cold water manifolds. I just shut the valve for the affected segment. It's all easily accessible and repairable.

[eric1207 180]

Now you tell me!  

I hadn't heard about mice and pex during my research.  I ran it all thru my house replacing the 75 year old galvanized pipe.  We've never had rodent issues but we had a cat til the kids grew up.  It died some 8 years ago.  Still haven't seen any mice but rats have started making visits to our outside potting shed, even though our pest service has those black boxes nearby.  GRRR.  I never realized what great service our cat provided til she was gone.   

Oh yeah, I do like Dylan's Fisher

[Kris Cringle 1,254]

2 hours ago, eric1207 said:

Now you tell me!  

I hadn't heard about mice and pex during my research.  I ran it all thru my house replacing the 75 year old galvanized pipe.  We've never had rodent issues but we had a cat til the kids grew up.  It died some 8 years ago.  Still haven't seen any mice but rats have started making visits to our outside potting shed, even though our pest service has those black boxes nearby.  GRRR.  I never realized what great service our cat provided til she was gone.   

Oh yeah, I do like Dylan's Fisher

I wouldn't panic, I've put in miles of it in buildings, old and new. Copper is going the way of paper charts.

 

Research shows that the rodent/Pex problem exists but I think it's pretty rare. I think Romex wiring takes the bulk of rodent damage, rats, mice and squirrels. I had squirrels destroy all the ceiling wiring in a seasonal place this spring. They established a runway through the ceiling and can't help themselves chewing the casing off Romex.  

On the Pex leak I replaced, the damage was where the tubing went through a wall plate (wood 2X4). The tubing ran through a 1 1/2" hole. The hole was large enough, or maybe almost large enough for the mouse to pass through. Rodents all chew around their passages (it looks to me) to widen them or whatever they're thinking. The hole had been chewed all around the Pex also took some shaving down. 

But the rodents might like Pex soft texture or something, once they start. Give them no food source and with squirrels, get rid of them pronto. 

[The Q 484]

I've had a rat recently trying to chew its way through the conservatory door into the house... As for mice I found a fried one, in the loft, strapped across the mains inside a lighting junction box..

 

[olaf hart 647]

I heard the problem is some sort of soy based environmentally friendly plastic formula, is that correct?

[2airishuman 124]

16 hours ago, Ajax said:

I have copper rough-ins to all of my service points, so there are no plastics inside the walls. Then, I have that gray Qest polybutylene plumbing throughout the crawl space.

Some years ago I owned a house in north Georgia that was on a community well.  The water was pH 4.0 coming out of the tap. Great flavor and safe to drink but corrosive to copper.  All the houses in the development, including mine, that shared the well were plumbed with copper when new.  This was the late 1980s and polybutylene was thought to be the gold-card answer to difficult plumbing problems.  My house was full of it, replaced by the former owner one piece at a time as the original copper was eaten through by the acid water.

The line coming in from  the street had corroded and sprung a leak right where it came into the house but with removal of some cinder block and careful patching I was able to get it to stop until I sold the house, leaving me several thousand dollars richer than I would have been had I made the call to the guy with the backhoe.

Qest.  Great stuff for its time.

House I have now is all pex but I have a cat so I guess it's ok.

[Panope 394]

 

[10thTonner 287]

22 hours ago, olaf hart said:

I heard the problem is some sort of soy based environmentally friendly plastic formula, is that correct?

The phenomenon of rodents or martens chewing through cables and hoses has been known long before soy plastic was invented. I think it is the softeners in “classic” plastic that somehow attracts them. 

[Kris Cringle 1,254]

This is the Scottish thread, sort of.

Working on some old photos, I stumbled on this one of the man-made harbor in Craille Scotland. I've never noticed dry laid stones on a vertical like this and it's been driving me crazy. I'm fascinated by the stone building in this area of the world. But I couldn't fathom why someone would take on the extra labor of laying stones on a vertical access.

There isn't even structural reason, like the running bond of stones laid horizontally, that makes any sense. But the extra labor! Can you imagine? 

Anyway, because there are several posters from across the pond here, does anyone know (without googling), the reasoning behind this laborious practice? 

(I found the answer but want to know if this is common elsewhere before devulging). 

[Steam Flyer 5,449]

3 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

This is the Scottish thread, sort of.

Working on some old photos, I stumbled on this one of the man-made harbor in Craille Scotland. I've never noticed dry laid stones on a vertical like this and it's been driving me crazy. I'm fascinated by the stone building in this area of the world. But I couldn't fathom why someone would take on the extra labor of laying stones on a vertical access.

There isn't even structural reason, like the running bond of stones laid horizontally, that makes any sense. But the extra labor! Can you imagine? 

Anyway, because there are several posters from across the pond here, does anyone know (without googling), the reasoning behind this laborious practice? 

(I found the answer but want to know if this is common elsewhere before devulging). 

If I had to guess, I'd say that the workers laying the stone in place thought it was worth the extra trouble because it got them up out of the muck sooner

FB- Doug

[dylan winter 1,575]

The stevenson family

http://robert-louis-stevenson.org/lighthouses/

built lots of harbours and lighthouses along the east coast of scotland

they cut the blocks and assembled them ashore and then made the harbours and lighthouses as the weather allowed

they employed the fisnest stonemasons from around thw world - blokes who normally built cathedrals

I first noticed the weird block placement on the harbour at Anstruther

https://www.fife.gov.uk/facilities/beaches-and-harbours/anstruther-harbour

where I spent a winter with the trailer sailer

I really enjoyed my winter in the firth of forth

Anstruther it is a drying harbour so it is a bit weird

I was told that the block placement was to allow the sea water to drain out because flat laid blocks allow water to puddle and when it freezes the ice forces the blocks apart and breaks up the harbour wall.

Dylan

 

PS done without the internet

PPS Louis Stevenson - the man with the donkey in  France - was regarded by the rest of the heavy engineering down to earth family as a bit of a flibbertygibbet

It turned out apart from us sailors,  who still use their lighthouses as a navigation aide, Victor was the most famous because he walked through france with a pack donkey!

There are some films about Anstruther .... somewhere

 

 

 

[Kris Cringle 1,254]

37 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

The stevenson family

http://robert-louis-stevenson.org/lighthouses/

built lots of harbours and lighthouses along the east coast of scotland

they cut the blocks and assembled them ashore and then made the harbours and lighthouses as the weather allowed

they employed the fisnest stonemasons from around thw world - blokes who normally built cathedrals

I first noticed the weird block placement on the harbour at Anstruther

https://www.fife.gov.uk/facilities/beaches-and-harbours/anstruther-harbour

where I spent a winter with the trailer sailer

I really enjoyed my winter in the firth of forth

Anstruther it is a drying harbour so it is a bit weird

I was told that the block placement was to allow the sea water to drain out because flat laid blocks allow water to puddle and when it freezes the ice forces the blocks apart and breaks up the harbour wall.

Dylan

 

PS done without the internet

PPS Louis Stevenson - the man with the donkey in  France - was regarded by the rest of the heavy engineering down to earth family as a bit of a flibbertygibbet

It turned out apart from us sailors,  who still use their lighthouses as a navigation aide, Victor was the most famous because he walked through france with a pack donkey!

There are some films about Anstruther .... somewhere

 

 

 

That may be, too (draining).

But I found a Scottish stone mason/engineer/historian who claims the practice is used in areas where surf or current tend to wash the fines out from between the dry-laid stones.

A vertical joint, which lies perpendicular to the flow, doesn't wash out as readily. That makes sense. Here is his example that accompanied the explanation. 

Could be the area of the Craille seawall had washed out prematurely and was later constructed in this manner. Those tiny, man-made harbors along the coast there, take a beating. 

 

 

[TwoLegged 1,224]

9 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

But I found a Scottish stone mason/engineer/historian who claims the practice is used in areas where surf or current tend to wash the fines out from between the dry-laid stones.

A vertical joint, which lies perpendicular to the flow, doesn't wash out as readily. That makes sense. Here is his example that accompanied the explanation. 

Could be the area of the Craille seawall had washed out prematurely and was later constructed in this manner. Those tiny, man-made harbors along the coast there, take a beating. 

These explanations are all very interesting and plausible.  Thanks for posting them.

But here's the thing that puzzles me.  If this vertical alignment of the stones is really such a good idea, why wasn't it used elsewhere?

(I am not being sarcastic. Sometimes good ideas don't travel)

[Kris Cringle 1,254]

39 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

These explanations are all very interesting and plausible.  Thanks for posting them.

But here's the thing that puzzles me.  If this vertical alignment of the stones is really such a good idea, why wasn't it used elsewhere?

(I am not being sarcastic. Sometimes good ideas don't travel)

Even if this method does work, it would likely be much more expensive. I'm no stonemason but I think if I were estimating a request to lay stones vertical, I'd double the horizontal figure and add 15%. Not only does it look like tedious work, it looks dangerous with the bigger stones. 

 

Looking at another photo from that harbor (this was 2009), I'm guessing the vertical stone area - right - washed out in the past and was replaced. The lower stone wall, laid on the horizontal, looks part of the left half of the photo. 

No way you could get this work done around here. We don't have the skills with stone. 

 

[dylan winter 1,575]

48 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

That may be, too (draining).

But I found a Scottish stone mason/engineer/historian who claims the practice is used in areas where surf or current tend to wash the fines out from between the dry-laid stones.

A vertical joint, which lies perpendicular to the flow, doesn't wash out as readily. That makes sense. Here is his example that accompanied the explanation. 

Could be the area of the Craille seawall had washed out prematurely and was later constructed in this manner. Those tiny, man-made harbors along the coast there, take a beating. 

 

 

Two parts to that....I had assumed that the blocks were so perfect that no fines or fillers or mortar was ever used

And, if fines or fillers were used why would the fines be less likely to wash out of a vertical crack than a straight one

D

 

[TwoLegged 1,224]

23 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Even if this method does work, it would likely be much more expensive. I'm no stonemason but I think if I were estimating a request to lay stones vertical, I'd double the horizontal figure and add 15%. Not only does it look like tedious work, it looks dangerous with the bigger stones. 

Interesting thought, Kris, but that still leaves me curious.   If it is much more arduous and expensive, then why did it persist in that area?

[Raz'r 3,553]

Wonderful detour, but I read something interesting this weekend, in the manual for my common-rail Yanmar.

"Don't use biocide"

Probably only an issue for these electronic beasties, but I was surprised.  And I've got 2 bottles of biocide if anyone needs some!

[Kris Cringle 1,254]

20 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Interesting thought, Kris, but that still leaves me curious.   If it is much more arduous and expensive, then why did persist in that area?

Beats me. Hopefully, Dylan will solve the mystery when he returns. 

All I know is, the masons there are maintaining buildings that (some) have survived millenniums. They must do it for a good reason, even if it is only to show off.

We were there in 2009 and returned in 2013 to watch our daughter graduate from St. Andrews. 

The fact that her class was the 600th to graduate, is still astonishing to me. 

[European Bloke 513]

Perhaps you can lay part of a few columns at low water and then complete them as the tide rises, thereby working all tide.

If you build in rows then to start with you can only build at very low tide. So better utilisation of time.

I made that up...

[SloopJonB 8,862]

39 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Beats me. Hopefully, Dylan will solve the mystery when he returns. 

All I know is, the masons there are maintaining buildings that (some) have survived millenniums. They must do it for a good reason, even if it is only to show off.

We were there in 2009 and returned in 2013 to watch our daughter graduate from St. Andrews. 

The fact that her class was the 600th to graduate, is still astonishing to me. 

If nothing else, the UK does old better than almost anywhere.

Not long ago I read about a family hardware store that had been in operation - by the same family - for hundreds of years.

Camper & Nicholson has been in operation building boats for about 300 years.

[dylan winter 1,575]

Wife jill went to st Andrews

Bloody cold

It left her with a lifetime sweater fixation

My kids went to this place

https://www.royallatin.org/history/

1400s   it was just a school

 

this was my school  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woolverstone_Hall_School

 

[TwoLegged 1,224]

24 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

If nothing else, the UK does old better than almost anywhere.

That's mostly due to fighting its wars elsewhere.  The last successful invasion of Britain was in 1689, and that wasn't much of fight, so there was very little destruction of buildings.  Before that, it was 1066, after which everything was trashed and remodelled.   The Luftwaffe did some remodeling in the 20th century, but most of their targets were industrial stuff.

OTOH, the Brits were very good at fighting wars elsewhere, trashing much of those other places.  So they kinda hobbled the competition in the old-places stakes.

[kinardly 216]

Couldn't help being curious enough to google St. Andrews University. What a history! What a lot of mold growing on those damp stones! The other two look like private, secondary boarding schools, which I was always told were called public schools over there. I was a USAF brat in England in the 50s going to  US run school for dependents and part of the music curriculum included learning that Eton Rowing Song. I remember the verse, "Harrow may be more clever, Rugby may make more row, ......" and so on.

[dylan winter 1,575]

1 minute ago, kinardly said:

Couldn't help being curious enough to google St. Andrews University. What a history! What a lot of mold growing on those damp stones! The other two look like private, secondary boarding schools, which I was always told were called public schools over there. I was a USAF brat in England in the 50s going to  US run school for dependents and part of the music curriculum included learning that Eton Rowing Song. I remember the verse, "Harrow may be more clever, Rugby may make more row, ......" and so on.

Both Latin and wolverstone state run schools

Pupils had to pass an entrance exam

No fees to be paid

Wolverstone was started by a socialist council in London

How does that sound

confounds a few preconceptions

 

[kinardly 216]

I also remember living in an old farm house without central heat through two winters. That was where I formed the opinion that the famous British stiff upper lip stoicism actually came from wearing that damned itchy, wool underwear and Viyella school uniform shirts from September to May.

(Just yanking your chain, Dylan)

[SloopJonB 8,862]

1 hour ago, kinardly said:

I also remember living in an old farm house without central heat through two winters. That was where I formed the opinion that the famous British stiff upper lip stoicism actually came from wearing that damned itchy, wool underwear and Viyella school uniform shirts from September to May.

Sodomy and the lash contributed as well.

[Jackett 27]

11 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Interesting thought, Kris, but that still leaves me curious.   If it is much more arduous and expensive, then why did it persist in that area?

You also see thirds method used in parts of Cornwall - not just for quay walls, but also for low retaining walls alongside roads, forming terraces in sloping gardens etc. The land based uses implies it's not used due to washout of material under wave action. 

Walls built like this all seem to have relatively crudely cut stones I.e. not cut with perfectly flat faces. I did wonder whether this method let's you get away with this, and so save time (cutting stones to shape by hand being much slower than actually laying the stones). By laying the stones vertically, their weight wedges them in place between the adjacent courses. Where's if laying horizontally, without the use of a lot of relatively stiff mortar imperfectly cut stones with slightly slipping top or bottom faces would tend to slide off of one another. 

[The Q 484]

13 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

If nothing else, the UK does old better than almost anywhere.

Not long ago I read about a family hardware store that had been in operation - by the same family - for hundreds of years.

 

Probably this one.. https://www.odellandco.co.uk/page-2-about-us.aspx which is not that From Dylan looking at the address  on a photo WAAAY back in this thread, used to be my go to place, when I lived in MK.

Just having read this thread from start to finish it's a tour of places, I've been / sailed and some of the problems. Though it's 22 ish years since we put into Blyth.

Our motor boat had diesel bug, which I solved with marine 16, and a home made Fuel polisher. 

I don't trust radar.. I'm a trained radar technician..

If you'd scanned that Photo of St Andrews left, you have got a couple of the hotels I used to regularly in St Andrews, enjoyed a lot of visits there for work..

That Fisher won't get under Potter Heigham bridge for the 3 Rivers Race.

 

 

[dylan winter 1,575]

1 hour ago, The Q said:

Probably this one.. https://www.odellandco.co.uk/page-2-about-us.aspx which is not that From Dylan looking at the address  on a photo WAAAY back in this thread, used to be my go to place, when I lived in MK.

Just having read this thread from start to finish it's a tour of places, I've been / sailed and some of the problems. Though it's 22 ish years since we put into Blyth.

Our motor boat had diesel bug, which I solved with marine 16, and a home made Fuel polisher. 

I don't trust radar.. I'm a trained radar technician..

If you'd scanned that Photo of St Andrews left, you have got a couple of the hotels I used to regularly in St Andrews, enjoyed a lot of visits there for work..

That Fisher won't get under Potter Heigham bridge for the 3 Rivers Race.

 

 

The mirror did though

Lovely place to sail

 

I am hoping to take the fisher around the outside of Ireland and then up the Shannon

D

 

 

[TwoLegged 1,224]

15 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

I am hoping to take the fisher around the outside of Ireland and then up the Shannon

I think that you will have to drop your masts to get through Limerick, but you can raise them again once you are on Lough Derg.

[dylan winter 1,575]

18 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I think that you will have to drop your masts to get through Limerick, but you can raise them again once you are on Lough Derg.

Tabernacle

Good eh

D

[TwoLegged 1,224]

13 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

33 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I think that you will have to drop your masts to get through Limerick, but you can raise them again once you are on Lough Derg.

Tabernacle

Good eh

Very good.  You chose that boat wisely ...

... at least wrt mast lowering.  The wheelhouse will of course be a bit uncomfortable in the searing heat of a typically arid Irish summer  

[Steam Flyer 5,449]

17 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

37 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

56 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I think that you will have to drop your masts to get through Limerick, but you can raise them again once you are on Lough Derg.

Tabernacle

Good eh

Very good.  You chose that boat wisely ...

... at least wrt mast lowering.  The wheelhouse will of course be a bit uncomfortable in the searing heat of a typically arid Irish summer   

Yes, sometimes it gets so darn hot, you want to take off your sweater!

But it sounds like a lovely trip, I've been wanting to go back and do more sailing and/or a canal trip. Mrs Steam would vote more for the canal trip, I think. But we had a marvelous time around Kinsale, some years ago.

FB- Doug

 

[The Q 484]

4 hours ago, dylan winter said:

The mirror did though

Lovely place to sail

 

I am hoping to take the fisher around the outside of Ireland and then up the Shannon

D

 

 

That's a trip I'd like to do,

I've done separately,

part of the outer Hebrides,

Ullapool round the top to  Blyth, 

An area around Scarborough,

A large part of the channel,

The Three Rivers Race many times..

Galavanting round bits of coast are unlikely now, I now sail and prop up a bar between races or a quiet sail round bits of the broads.

[TwoLegged 1,224]

3 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

But it sounds like a lovely trip, I've been wanting to go back and do more sailing and/or a canal trip. Mrs Steam would vote more for the canal trip, I think. But we had a marvelous time around Kinsale, some years ago.

If you can find a boat which will handle both canals and coast, you could do a circuit of Munster, using the Barrow navigation, the Grand Canal, and then the lower Shannon.

If you can stand the searing heat and the risk that you might have expose your thermal shirt to the sun  

[sculpin 113]

On 1/21/2021 at 11:00 AM, Steam Flyer said:

Yes, sometimes it gets so darn hot, you want to take off your sweater!

But it sounds like a lovely trip, I've been wanting to go back and do more sailing and/or a canal trip. Mrs Steam would vote more for the canal trip, I think. But we had a marvelous time around Kinsale, some years ago.

FB- Doug

 

I already made fun of Dylan for having a bottle of SPF50 sunblock in one of his Scotland videos.  Textbook definition of optimist.

 

[TwoLegged 1,224]

18 minutes ago, sculpin said:

I already made fun of Dylan for having a bottle of SPF50 sunblock in one of his Scotland videos.  Textbook definition of optimist.

It's all about preparedness.  You never know hen a huge storm may strike and drive you south to the equator.

My favourite thing about the Scottish climate is the midges, which helpfully torment the British Army who use the Highlands for their war games.  After extensive testing, they wisely settled on Avon Skin So Soft as the best midge repellent (yes, it really is good).  I love the notion of Lizzie Windsor's hard men preparing to go on exercise: ammo loaded, bayonets fixed, minds set to kill kill kill ... and Skin So Soft applied 

[The Q 484]

Yep, I've had bottles of "skin so soft"  on standby by for years, both for use in Scotland and sailing on the Norfolk Broads. If you're drifting along the edge of a river having a quiet sail, the last thing you want is some hungry insect coming out of the reeds to make a meal of you..

Horse flies have a nasty bite, and can give you an infected wound..

[Black Sox 810]

On 1/21/2021 at 2:01 PM, TwoLegged said:

I think that you will have to drop your masts to get through Limerick, but you can raise them again once you are on Lough Derg.

Going through Limerick, I’d be more concerned for your wallet than your rig. Don’t stop, no matter what.

()

[Kris Cringle 1,254]

I took my vertical stones curiosity questions to the land of stones. 

Posting the pics of the vertical stones in Crail Harbor, Fife, on the Sailing Cruising Scotland FB group, I've had 25 comments so far. 

It turns out the practice is quite common, Cromwell Harbor in Dunbar, Wick Harbor, Frescoe, Sandside, Keiss to name a few. Apparently there was an engineer by the name of Thomas Telfords who used the practice often especially at the top areas of sea walls. 

I still don't have one definitive answer for the practice, but several plausible reasons. This answer received the most likes: 

'It’s just because they didn’t have any horizontal stones left, had to use the vertical ones.

Fair enough (and funny). There was only one direct mention of protection from wave action, my presumed theory(from one source).  

'A lot of Telfords jetties have vertical stones - especially around the top. I always presumed it was to lessen the impact of the waves coming down on each stone and increase the water runoff down the gaps (he didn't use cement). With emphasis on "I always presumed".

The most common theme supporting the practice of the vertical joints involved drainage. I thought this response carried the most weight: 

'Shared the pics with my son, who is an ocean engineer. His comments were that the horizontal stones would have better structure/strength, where the vertical allow for drainage. Notice that the part of the wall that gets submerged from the tides/storms have no mortar, allowing the drainage, and the parts of the wall above the tides do have mortar.

There were several other comments about the mortar-less stones absorbing wave actions. Naturally, water moves through the warf wall and has to exit. The vertical joints, almost a continuous slot, drains far better than multiple horizontal steps. Also testaments to the longevity of the vertical stone lay up. 

Anyway, that's what I'm sticking with, drainage. It's all about drainage. 

They were very helpful to this curious Yank, who builds with sticks. 

 

 

 

[TwoLegged 1,224]

3 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

Anyway, that's what I'm sticking with, drainage. It's all about drainage. 

They were very helpful to this curious Yank, who builds with sticks. 

Thanks. Kris.  That sounds very plausible. 

But I remain fascinated by how the technique remains so localised.  Since even small harbours are transport hubs, I would expect an idea for harbour construction to spread if it was successful.

[Kris Cringle 1,254]

3 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Thanks. Kris.  That sounds very plausible. 

But I remain fascinated by how the technique remains so localised.  Since even small harbours are transport hubs, I would expect an idea for harbour construction to spread if it was successful.

Good question. Perhaps the success of the practice is subjective as to it adding longevity. As a builder, I look at it and wonder if it would go the category of 'over building'. 

We have none of the practice here that I've seen. It makes me think though: We're wrestling with our harbor walls beginning to deteriorate at the top partly due to sea level rise. OUr practice is generally machine laid wharf walls of big cut stones and pilings (because our stone work doesn't hold without them). Now, town crews are trying to extend their life by cabling the stones together. But now that the water (at high tide and storm conditions) is at the top, I can see the wave action going behind stones and working them loose. 

It's a lost battle, once you are at the rim... 

 

 

[Jim in Halifax 270]

I rebuilt my wharf a couple of years ago as the stone-filled cribs had exceeded their design lifespan. The original wharf was 35 years old, built by a farmer without heavy machinery - a tribute to how they got things built. Anyway after exploring a lot of costly options, I went with piles. We left the old ballast rock where it was to prevent erosion of the beach. I would love to have stonework like that in some of the Scottish harbours.

The new wharf deck is a metre higher than the old one. Sea level is definitely on the rise.

[TwoLegged 1,224]

3 hours ago, Black Sox said:

Going through Limerick, I’d be more concerned for your wallet than your rig. Don’t stop, no matter what.

()

Wise advice, Sox.

Unless you got a horse

 

[Kris Cringle 1,254]

37 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

I rebuilt my wharf a couple of years ago as the stone-filled cribs had exceeded their design lifespan. The original wharf was 35 years old, built by a farmer without heavy machinery - a tribute to how they got things built. Anyway after exploring a lot of costly options, I went with piles. We left the old ballast rock where it was to prevent erosion of the beach. I would love to have stonework like that in some of the Scottish harbours.

The new wharf deck is a metre higher than the old one. Sea level is definitely on the rise.

Good you can rise with it. Our natural granite harbor is deep, the town rises above,  but the wharf tops are beginning to go under when any blow pushes a high tide in here.

I'm now seeing videos around the area of storm drains, backing up. When your street drains run backwards, you know you are beat. 

This is our boat club on town lands. The little geysers behind the stone wharf squirt skyward under the pressure. Moving water is relentless. 

Another problem, the ramps and docks were never hinged, to go up. 

Down the coast a mile, the Rockland breakwater regularly goes under during a modest blow at high water. 

Someone asked where those stairs lead. That's elementary (I thought), those stairs lead to the future.