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CS36, C&C 33-2, Ericson 35-3, Cal 33-2...


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I just sold my Olson 29 and am looking for a little more comfort. I race Weds nights, some BYC/Mac, double handed and single handed as well as overnights and weekends with my partner. Don't plan on sailing the world but would like something fairly capable. Budget is about 30k USD. PHRF of 110 to 135ish. 

This is what I'm liking so far: CS36, C&C 33-2, Ericson 35-3, Cal 33-2. I like the C&C mk3 as well but the price is starting to get out of my range. Willing to ship from the US within reason (I'm in Canada on the great lakes), which leaves west coast boats out.  

Any reason to not choose any of the listed options or suggestions? Is buying a US boat based on a surveyor without actually seeing it a really bad idea?

 

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consider a 35-2. we love ours. and yes, you should see the boat. i didn't and even though i had it surveyed and had a good friend check it out with like 100 pics, i should have gone to see it - i woulda ground the price down more!

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I'm going to answer the last question first.

 

As a Certified Marine Surveyor (NAMS-Global since 1995), my opinion is, it is a very bad idea to buy a boat based on a surveyors report only.  You really ought to do your due diligence on any boat purchase before you hire a surveyor and then you really need to be there for the survey so that you can see in person what the surveyor is finding.  

Out of the boats you listed the top for my list would bee the Ericson 35-3 followed by the Call 33-2, then may be the C&C 33-2.

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17 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

Out of the boats you listed the top for my list would bee the Ericson 35-3

Me too.  If a little smaller is okay, the Ericson 32-III has worked out to be a great boat for me.  Big enough to go places, small enough I can easily do everything singlehanded, and sails great.  ~2 feet shorter than the 35-3, and something like 3500 lbs lighter.

Another good choice in that range is the C&C-34

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Buy the Cal 33 for the interior, amazing.  Cockpit is a bit small and it sails nice, but the interior is great!  I like the C&C 35MKIII but was told by an industry pro to stay away from that vintage C&C, so I never did look at one.  

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2 hours ago, Editor said:

consider a 35-2. we love ours. and yes, you should see the boat. i didn't and even though i had it surveyed and had a good friend check it out with like 100 pics, i should have gone to see it - i woulda ground the price down more!

Not sure I want to go that old especially without being able to view one as all that I’m seeing are in the US.  

2 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

I'm going to answer the last question first.

 

As a Certified Marine Surveyor (NAMS-Global since 1995), my opinion is, it is a very bad idea to buy a boat based on a surveyors report only.  You really ought to do your due diligence on any boat purchase before you hire a surveyor and then you really need to be there for the survey so that you can see in person what the surveyor is finding.  

Out of the boats you listed the top for my list would bee the Ericson 35-3 followed by the Call 33-2, then may be the C&C 33-2.

I was wondering about this. So a surveyor isn’t a reliable source for advice on whether a boat is reasonably priced relative to other boats of that style and vintage? Are there any ethical issues involved? Zero experience with surveys. 

 

16 minutes ago, Will said:

Buy the Cal 33 for the interior, amazing.  Cockpit is a bit small and it sails nice, but the interior is great!  I like the C&C 35MKIII but was told by an industry pro to stay away from that vintage C&C, so I never did look at one.  

I’m going to look at a Cal 33-2 next weekend. I am personally more concerned with how well it sails and interior comes second. No reason to not have both though, right?

2 hours ago, sledracr said:

Me too.  If a little smaller is okay, the Ericson 32-III has worked out to be a great boat for me.  Big enough to go places, small enough I can easily do everything singlehanded, and sails great.  ~2 feet shorter than the 35-3, and something like 3500 lbs lighter.

Another good choice in that range is the C&C-34

The Ericson 35-3 is currently my preference. That said, they are all in the US and I’m therefore unable to view them in person. The C&C 34 is a little slow for a 34’er which is why I listed the 33-2. 

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16 minutes ago, inneedofadvice said:

Not sure I want to go that old especially without being able to view one as all that I’m seeing are in the US.  

I was wondering about this. So a surveyor isn’t a reliable source for advice on whether a boat is reasonably priced relative to other boats of that style and vintage? Are there any ethical issues involved? Zero experience with surveys. 

 

I’m going to look at a Cal 33-2 next weekend. I am personally more concerned with how well it sails and interior comes second. No reason to not have both though, right?

The Ericson 35-3 is currently my preference. That said, they are all in the US and I’m therefore unable to view them in person. The C&C 34 is a little slow for a 34’er which is why I listed the 33-2. 

Any good surveyor is going to give you cold hearted facts. Those facts look very different on a report versus crawling around the boat yourself. The simple answer is you want both. No matter how much you kid yourself, a boat purchase is an emotional choice. The surveyor is the voice of reason, but can’t honestly tell you if you’ll like the boat. 

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1 hour ago, inneedofadvice said:

 

 So a surveyor isn’t a reliable source for advice on whether a boat is reasonably priced relative to other boats of that style and vintage? Are there any ethical issues involved? Zero experience with surveys. 

 

 

Not at all.  In fact I often consult with buyers about the expected range they should be looking at for purchase.  A good surveyor will have a subscription with BUC Valu-Pro and Soldboats.com (not cheap!).  So that could be useful for you going into your Pre-survey inspection (Due Diligence). The surveyors final valuation will include the condition of the vessel at the time of survey.

What I am trying to be clear about is that you really ought to be present for the survey itself. You are making a significant investment.  Don't cheap out on the purchase process.  

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The surveyor is there to stop you buying the boat you love this week but will hate for the rest of your life!

Think of him as your wife,  but giving you a written report.

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CS 36 is a very capable boat. But then I am happily biased. If you are GL-based you should talk to Pat Sturgeon of the  eponymous brokerage.. He was with the company as senior commissioning officer and knows them inside and out. Spent many wintters south cruising with his family on them and was his boat of choice.No slug around the cans either.

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4 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

What I am trying to be clear about is that you really ought to be present for the survey itself. You are making a significant investment.  Don't cheap out on the purchase process.  

^^^^This.  You will learn a metric butt ton about boats in general, and about “your” boat specifically.  I’ve never missed a survey over 6 boat purchases.  Backed away from 2 boats as a result.  Learn more each time.  It’s well worth the price in money and time to be present at the survey.

 

if your considering Ericsson 35-3s, you should also look at the 34-2 which is the same Hull, with a more chopped off transom....

I also like the Ericson 33 (Ron Holland IOR design), and the Frers 33 though they are at the very top of your price range...

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12 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

 

Out of the boats you listed the top for my list would bee the Ericson 35-3 followed by the Call 33-2, then may be the C&C 33-2.

I am just SHOCKED, HURT and FLABERGASTED!!!    How in the name of Tim Hortons could you not list the CANADIAN SAILCRAFT 36 !!!!   What is wrong with the CS 36???

 

I have to wonder just how easier it has become to sell an Ericson 35 since the Editor bought one.

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6 hours ago, Crash said:
10 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

What I am trying to be clear about is that you really ought to be present for the survey itself. You are making a significant investment.  Don't cheap out on the purchase process.  

^^^^This.  You will learn a metric butt ton about boats in general, and about “your” boat specifically.  I’ve never missed a survey over 6 boat purchases.  Backed away from 2 boats as a result.  Learn more each time.  It’s well worth the price in money and time to be present at the survey.

 

if your considering Ericsson 35-3s, you should also look at the 34-2 which is the same Hull, with a more chopped off transom....

I also like the Ericson 33 (Ron Holland IOR design), and the Frers 33 though they are at the very top of your price range...

Yes. Looking over the surveyor's shoulder as he goes through the boat is an education in itself. And you definitely want to know what kind of stuff he goes "hmmmm" over but passes.

Also, agree on the CS 36. They built good boats.

FB- Doug

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All good info. I hadn't thought of being there while the surveyor did their thing. Seems obvious once you say it.

The biggest issue I'm up against is the limited selection of boats that I can see in Canada. That leaves three options:

Waiting until the border opens. I'm not predicting that'll be any day soon. I also think (possibly unfounded) that people are likely to be more willing to negotiate more in the fall as in the spring.

Buy based on a surveyors opinion. Seems the consensus so far is that's not a great plan.

Deal with limited selection. That leaves the Ericson 35-2 out which was my original leaning. There are some CS36's around though.

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14 hours ago, Will said:

Buy the Cal 33 for the interior, amazing.  Cockpit is a bit small and it sails nice, but the interior is great!  I like the C&C 35MKIII but was told by an industry pro to stay away from that vintage C&C, so I never did look at one.  

What did the pro say about the C&C MKIII? I raced on one for several years and know several other people with them and never really noticed or heard much negative about them. 

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I've always liked the look of the C&C 33-2 , but the 3 I've looked at in salt water all had bad blister problems. If you like the look of the Cal 33 it might be worth a glance at the Pearson 33-2 and Sabre 34-2. Both really nice boats, although the Sabre has a price premium for the name.

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12 hours ago, Zonker said:

I think the build quality of the CS is miles above the Cal and probably above the C&C. Friends of ours sailed theirs from CA to Australia and didn't have too many issues except the V-drive.

Does it really weigh 15,500 lbs? Seems like a lot for a 36' that rates 123 phrf. https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/cs-36

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11 minutes ago, Tax Man said:

There are two CS36 models

Original/traditional - build like a tank but not quite as fast

Merlin - less solid but faster

I find this interesting and assumed the same before I started looking. The traditional rates 123 and the merlin from 132-141 based on which of the 3 keels you happen to have, shoal, wing, deep and performance bulb .

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11 hours ago, Kent H said:

I am just SHOCKED, HURT and FLABERGASTED!!!    How in the name of Tim Hortons could you not list the CANADIAN SAILCRAFT 36 !!!!   What is wrong with the CS 36???

 

 

LOL. I’ve never seen one.  So can’t opine!

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7 hours ago, Slick470 said:

What did the pro say about the C&C MKIII? I raced on one for several years and know several other people with them and never really noticed or heard much negative about them. 

It was related to how they were built and core rot.

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2 hours ago, Will said:
10 hours ago, Slick470 said:

What did the pro say about the C&C MKIII? I raced on one for several years and know several other people with them and never really noticed or heard much negative about them. 

It was related to how they were built and core rot.

Core rot has not been a problem in any C&C 35-3's I know of, apart from isolated incidents with owners not bedding fittings very well. I have owned a C&C 29-2 from that era, and a 35-3 from the same year, over 20 years+. There are some known issues with the boats, but there are with most boats.

To the OP: If you're looking at C&C 33-2's you need to seriously look at the 35-3's. The increase in habitable space is surprising, especially in the V-berth. The 33-2's always felt a little crowded.

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49 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Core rot has not been a problem in any C&C 35-3's I know of, apart from isolated incidents with owners not bedding fittings very well. I have owned a C&C 29-2 from that era, and a 35-3 from the same year, over 20 years+. There are some known issues with the boats, but there are with most boats.

To the OP: If you're looking at C&C 33-2's you need to seriously look at the 35-3's. The increase in habitable space is surprising, especially in the V-berth. The 33-2's always felt a little crowded.

To expand on that: C&C 34 owners come on our boat and say "Where did all this space come from?"

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IMHO. I would shop only Canadian or Canadien boats that spent their life in fresh water.  Whose owners only drank Brew brewed in Canada.  Why go to America for a salt water damaged boat priced in the wrong, highly over valued dollar? 
 

Those people use high fructose corn syrup on their breakfast.   How can you trust them to use the right materials to build your boat? 
 

 

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17 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Core rot has not been a problem in any C&C 35-3's I know of, apart from isolated incidents with owners not bedding fittings very well. I have owned a C&C 29-2 from that era, and a 35-3 from the same year, over 20 years+. There are some known issues with the boats, but there are with most boats.

To the OP: If you're looking at C&C 33-2's you need to seriously look at the 35-3's. The increase in habitable space is surprising, especially in the V-berth. The 33-2's always felt a little crowded.

Yup.  I call BS on the rot being caused by construction issues.  Probably a few cases of knuckledheads mis-treating their boats and that "data" is extrapolated across a marque.   I have owned a 1981 for 16 years and it is bone dry.  Yea one dont make a trend but I know many a C & C owner and that is just not an issue. 

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5 hours ago, sledracr said:

Generally speaking, yes.  But let's refine the question.... what's wrong with the C&C-34?  I have a friend with one and it has a great boat for him.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/cc-34

  • short boom
  • cabin top mainsheet
  • long pole/masthead kite
  • undersized rudder with a wheel
  • hull form that won't go straight under power

Will round up in a sneeze and might be capable of death rolls at the dock.

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6 minutes ago, Tax Man said:
  • short boom
  • cabin top mainsheet
  • long pole/masthead kite
  • undersized rudder with a wheel
  • hull form that won't go straight under power

Will round up in a sneeze and might be capable of death rolls at the dock.

I believe all the boats listed above with the exception of the S2 10.3 have a cabin top mainsheet/traveler. Not ideal but it seems to be pretty much the norm in 33-35'ers in this price range of cruiser/racers. The cockpits are already small enough with all that furniture down below. That and wheels rather than tillers.

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6 hours ago, Tax Man said:
  • short boom
  • cabin top mainsheet
  • long pole/masthead kite
  • undersized rudder with a wheel
  • hull form that won't go straight under power

Will round up in a sneeze and might be capable of death rolls at the dock.

Sound like just about any old cruiser the IOR period!

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2 hours ago, TUBBY said:
9 hours ago, Tax Man said:
  • short boom
  • cabin top mainsheet
  • long pole/masthead kite
  • undersized rudder with a wheel
  • hull form that won't go straight under power

Will round up in a sneeze and might be capable of death rolls at the dock.

Sound like just about any old cruiser the IOR period!

The 34 is noted as a tender boat even for the time.

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2 hours ago, inneedofadvice said:

So between the CS36(123), the Ericson 35-3(123) and the Cal 33-2(132), which is likely to sail to its rating all other things being equal?(sail condition etc)

There's a Ericson 35-3 that races (Spin Class) on San Diego Bay named Sea Maiden that is very successful, and of course the Ed is about to start racing A5 (Ericson 35-1).  One of the biggest challenges you will face with any of the boats your are looking at is that something like 99.9% of them are used strictly as cruisers.  Getting them set up to race so that they can sail to their rating will take some time, effort and cash.  I'm going thru that now with a First 310 I bought.

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You had an Olson 29.  Something inside you really wants an Olson/Ericson 34 or Express 34 that would be more fun to sail/race and have a bunch more comfort below than the O29. 

Sorry for joking and the thread drift. :D  Surprised nobody said it earlier.

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28 minutes ago, yoyo said:

You had an Olson 29.  Something inside you really wants an Olson/Ericson 34 or Express 34 that would be more fun to sail/race and have a bunch more comfort below than the O29. 

Sorry for joking and the thread drift. :D  Surprised nobody said it earlier.

Sounds great. Where do I get one?;-)

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What about something built in your hometown? Sweet-handling boats, reasonably quick, well built, and even look a bit like an Olson.

The one in the first ad (Rewind) has a brand new engine, too.

https://www.yatco.com/yacht/36-33-abbott-36-yacht-1985-kincardine-ontario-261235/

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/abbott-36-3569094/

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3 hours ago, inneedofadvice said:

Sounds great. Where do I get one?;-)

That's the hard part.  Glad you realized my post was just for fun.  Generally with my luck something I want only becomes available right after I buy something else.  In the end it all works out.  Sounds like you have some choices close to you that you like.  Good luck with your search.

I'd have a hard time pulling the trigger without seeing the boat in person.

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Take a look at a Express 35. Looks like a C&C 35, sails like a J. Made in Canada by Goman yachts, designed by Steve Killing. PHRF base of 102. Not many made but you should be able to find one on the lakes.

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18 hours ago, krikkitman said:

What about something built in your hometown? Sweet-handling boats, reasonably quick, well built, and even look a bit like an Olson.

The one in the first ad (Rewind) has a brand new engine, too.

https://www.yatco.com/yacht/36-33-abbott-36-yacht-1985-kincardine-ontario-261235/

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1985/abbott-36-3569094/

@Peacefrog Familiar with either of these? Especially the first one?

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On 9/26/2020 at 9:45 AM, Peacefrog said:

@inneedofadvice the first one is the boat that Mellon's owned few a year or two. and the other one was one of Abbott's personal boats when it was new.

Thanks Tac, I’ll reach out to Brian. 

 

9 hours ago, PeterSailor said:

There is a C&C 33-2 available in the 1000 Island region for $30k. I know the boat, he was my neighbour at the club. She need new sail and a little tlc.

Thanks Peter. Any links, or know where it’s listed?

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On 9/24/2020 at 9:48 AM, damcoyote said:

How about an S2 10.3?

There is a clean looking 10.3 in Michigan, on Yachtworld, with an asking price in your range. I have raced on a friend's 10.3 for a number of years and would unhesitatingly buy one as a racer/cruiser. Well built, roomy, and fast in all conditions- easily sails to its rating here in the WLIS area. As mentioned, the cockpit traveller is a big plus compared to cabin-top setups, IMO. The only real caveat is that some of them had mast-step problems. Somebody else mentioned the Frers 33- I own one, so I'm a bit prejudiced. Really fun boat, but they tend to trade a little higher than your price range.

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Having owned an S2 9.1, and assuming they built them mostly the same way,  the 3 caveats I would throw out there are Mast steps, (though most have likely been repaired by now), mast partners (in the 9.1 an aluminum alloy plate was glassed in around the partners that expands as it corrodes and cracks the deck), and finally wet core in deck and cabin top (as S2 didn't isolate the core around any deck fittings).

That said, I loved my 9.1 even though I had to deal with 2 of the 3 issues.  It made me look like a way better sailor and racer than I am.  I have always had a 10.3 on my list of eligible boats, and wouldn't hesitate to buy one given the right timing, etc!

I was the guy who said Frers 33...they are also on my list...

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The Abbott 36 looks sweet!

Something very noticeable about my Olson 40, which is almost as narrow as an Abbott 36, is that narrow boats move MUCH more smoothly through a seaway than the more typical 3:1 length-to-beam ratio “typical” boats. The difference between a J or Catalina and mine, when going through a tugboat wake for example, is quite remarkable.

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Abbot 36 sounds like.a good boat for you.  Good performance, good shorthanded capabilities.  I think the one I used to race against had running backstays, which puts some people off 

If this doesn't pan out I think if you're patient you can find a decent boat in Ontario.  80s C&C 33 and 35 are nice boats, and lots around, many with club racing gear and inventories.  This boat has been for sale forever and still catches my eye - haven't seen it, but a tiller might be ok for small crews.

 https://www.rcryachts.com/print/used/cc-33-mkii-1530115038

Nice meeting you at Bridgeview a few weeks ago.  Good luck with the hunt!

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It is important to know what surveyors do and do not do.  They are generally pretty good at structural issues and detecting moisture in cored decks and hulls.  They also do a complete inventory of the boat's equipment.  They will check some systems, like the rudder, through-hulls and the prop if the boat is hauled for the survey.

They do not go up the rig to check the mast and rigging.  They do not test all the boat systems for proper function.  They do not check the mechanical state of the engine.

Buying a boat without being present for the survey could be very costly.

With older boats, it is worth having a rigger go up and check the rigging, and a mechanic check the motor.  If you are present during the survey, you can ask the broker to demonstrate the function of the systems to you, or you can do that on the sail trial.  On a boat with a lot of systems (propane, heat, hot water, AC charging, solar, etc. etc. this is fairly critical, as repairing or replacing those systems can run into thousands of dollars.

None of these boats were on the radar for my latest purchase except the C&C 33 MK II. Take a look at the CS 34.  Rates very close to the CS 36, rates faster than the C&C 33 Mk II, almost as fast as the Ericson 35-3, and has a much nicer interior layout than the others. Hard to find one - but I would have bought one if I could find one.

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11 hours ago, Jeff F said:

Abbot 36 sounds like.a good boat for you.  Good performance, good shorthanded capabilities.  I think the one I used to race against had running backstays, which puts some people off 

If this doesn't pan out I think if you're patient you can find a decent boat in Ontario.  80s C&C 33 and 35 are nice boats, and lots around, many with club racing gear and inventories.  This boat has been for sale forever and still catches my eye - haven't seen it, but a tiller might be ok for small crews.

 https://www.rcryachts.com/print/used/cc-33-mkii-1530115038

Nice meeting you at Bridgeview a few weeks ago.  Good luck with the hunt!

Thanks, Jeff. Sadly, the Olson was in an accident on it's way home to California. Made it to Louisville Kentucky. Really bummed me out.

 

IMG_1320.jpg

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My personal guess is it wasn't locked on the ball. Likely unhooked to get food while at a hotel and either forgot or got distracted while hooking up again and drove away. Towed a lot of trailers and it's easy to do. The boat caught the girder and spun a 180 on the trailer, truck wasn't damaged.

IMG_1321.JPG

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Probably as good a guess as there can be.  If you tow frequently, eventually, something will bite you.  I remember riding with my dad as a kid, and watching the trailer pass us in the oncoming traffic lane one day on our way back from the dump.  Pin was inserted, but hitch bar wasn't in all the way!  Fortunately, their was no oncoming traffic, and trailer slowed and served on to shoulder and came to a stop.  I'm obsessive about checking my tow connections now as a result.  :unsure:

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Oh!!, as a O29 owner myself that is a terrible sight to see.  I had mine towed down from interior BC and was pretty nervous the whole time.  Made sure the hauler knew exactly the height.  I was really happy to see it come in the marina driveway.  So sorry, must have been very hard to see it like that.  How many 29's are still around  i wonder.  I know of five  around the bay area and maybe two in the pacific northwest. Bolt was the only one I know of that had an inboard. I think only 25 or 27 were made.

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On 10/6/2020 at 8:20 AM, inneedofadvice said:

Liked it a lot. Made an offer but the owner decided not to sell it until he finds another boat as that’s been really difficult without being able to view anything in the US. 

What is he looking for?

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On 9/22/2020 at 4:48 PM, Editor said:

consider a 35-2. we love ours. and yes, you should see the boat. i didn't and even though i had it surveyed and had a good friend check it out with like 100 pics, i should have gone to see it - i woulda ground the price down more!

Yeah, but you seem happy as fuck with it!

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On 9/29/2020 at 10:40 PM, Jeff F said:

Abbot 36 sounds like.a good boat for you.  Good performance, good shorthanded capabilities.  I think the one I used to race against had running backstays, which puts some people off 

If this doesn't pan out I think if you're patient you can find a decent boat in Ontario.  80s C&C 33 and 35 are nice boats, and lots around, many with club racing gear and inventories.  This boat has been for sale forever and still catches my eye - haven't seen it, but a tiller might be ok for small crews.

 https://www.rcryachts.com/print/used/cc-33-mkii-1530115038

Nice meeting you at Bridgeview a few weeks ago.  Good luck with the hunt!

This boat was the prototype and as such was built in the custom shop.  Construction and interior differs from the production version.  At some point in time the current owner, enclosed the head.  I would seriously consider this boat.  

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On 10/6/2020 at 5:20 AM, inneedofadvice said:

Liked it a lot. Made an offer but the owner decided not to sell it until he finds another boat as that’s been really difficult without being able to view anything in the US. 

That's a shame. What about the other one (Rewind)?

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9/26/2020 at 8:25 AM, jfdubu said:

Take a look at a Express 35. Looks like a C&C 35, sails like a J. Made in Canada by Goman yachts, designed by Steve Killing. PHRF base of 102. Not many made but you should be able to find one on the lakes.

I know of one of these that might be a private sale in the spring.....30-35 K cdn ( Ontario )

great boat to cruise and race.  

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  • 7 months later...

I have a Ericson 34-2. One of the better 'sailing' sailboats that I have owned and sails extremely well to its rating.

No matter what you select, it is hard to compare one with another, as you will need to put some money into it for any type of racing. Good sails, clean bottom and proper running rigging makes a huge difference (if you want to be competitive). You can have a good solid racer / cruiser but with blown out or worn out sails, you will not have fun.

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I ended up with a Santana 35. Not exactly on or very close to the original list, but the price was right. So far really liking it. I ignored my own advice and bought it without seeing it, but it worked out to be as good or better than the seller had represented. Thanks for all the input.

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