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The happy conclusion of this thread is finally here!  Just took her out on her maiden voyage in San Diego.  Wonderful afternoon for a mellow shakedown sail; 4-6kts of boat speed in 5-10kts out of the

Update: funds have been transferred & documentation is complete!  We have a boat!   She should arrive here on Wednesday or Thursday; Driscoll yard will splash her and Rigworks will tension th

All packed up and ready to go.  Should arrive on Thursday!

Posted Images

1 hour ago, Crash said:

Nice! What is it?  Small Warschip?

 

Can’t find it on their website, gotta link?

No link, I made this ;). Here's what went into it:

My thinking was triggered by looking at videos of the Dehler 30OD and the L30, its complicated design and construction process and the myriad of lines you can twist and tweak to get it to speed in races like the Silverrudder. And then there is an avalanche of headsails: genoa, jib, staysail, Code 0, A2, A5, some boats have an Asym and a Sym. Furling, cableless or a jib with a reef? Anything goes. 

To me, that sounds overdoing it for amateur racing. You will find yourself changing sails so much because you fear you might lose 0.3 knots here or there. It is exhausting and lures you away from tactics and gaining miles by simply sailing well. It's also not much fun.

So: what is the simpliest way to do away with all that? And what would also be fun when tackling a 24-48 h race alone or with 2? I want to be able to tow it from my local lake, set it up in an hour and enjoy having time to look at weather and routing, while all the others are still fiddling with their ropes. Also, I believe it's a game of SA/D especially in the smaller classes. A catboat design, especially with three reefs and a wingmast should be very capable in all conditions, can provide safety like a large yacht and speed like a dinghy.

The idea above is a mixture of many designs I like a lot. Mainly they are:

The Hadron H 1 dinghy:

P1000830cs.jpg

It is ca. 4.20m and thus 2m smaller as my idea, but its construction is very close to what I have in mind. Of course, this is a centreboard, and is very, very light, just 80 kg for the hull. My design will weigh around 400 kg, which I think is doable at a length of 6.20m and a beam of ca. 2.2 m. 200kg / 50% will be in the bulb, ca. 1.40 m below. Keel and rudder should be lifting for ease of transport or even ramp launching.

Another design I like very much and from which I'd like to take some classic reminescences for the bow is the Pabouk

6797612d15aabb7048e8f74232ddd668.jpg

Here, the mast is extremely forward. But I still think it is a good idea to give catboat a slightly fuller bow. I would also like to have a watertight bulkhead in front of the mast that you can reach via a watertight hatch inside and also from the top. You could store things there for smaller trips, but in racing mode it would be filled with foam bags to ensure insubmersibility even in case of a hull cracking collision. 

The last design I looked at is the Marblehead 22, I mentioned earlier.

Zurn%20Marblehead%2022%20(3).jpg

I like how it looks classic, but I'm not as much a fan of Wishbone rigs. It's also pretty heavy for its length, and the aft sections are not good for a dinghy-like run. I think of ca. 18sq metres (194sq ft) main sail with three reefs on a carbon mast with three Dyneema stays (maybe even not). With 400kg of displacement, that gives us a SA/D of 33.7, that is more than a Farr 280.

Inside, it's very simple: two bunks below, with watertight sections below them. Another insubmersible section aft, below a slightly elevated aft deck, like in this Saffier. You can put large solar panels on in racing mode, or cushions for cruising. I would also give my design its extremely clever foldable windshield and roof for better protection.

DSC_2437.jpg

I think electrics would be something to closely look at. Propulsion should be electric, but I would also spend an extra dollar on a good navigation package and autopilot. The mainsheet could be splitted in a 1:2 part that goes to an electric captive winch, while the other end is for fine tuning.

Here is another version, with a slightly different bow, stern and mast position:

catboot2.thumb.jpg.7212c256b9223598aec787de26a7b6d0.jpg

 

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Lovely design, @Matagi.  Apart from the pot-catcher keel, I'd be very tempted.  Some of my own sketches go in that direction, but I haven't a fraction of your design skills.

15 minutes ago, Matagi said:

My thinking was triggered by looking at videos of the Dehler 30OD and the L30, its complicated design and construction process and the myriad of lines you can twist and tweak to get it to speed in races like the Silverrudder. And then there is an avalanche of headsails: genoa, jib, staysail, Code 0, A2, A5, some boats have an Asym and a Sym. Furling, cableless or a jib with a reef? Anything goes. 

To me, that sounds overdoing it for amateur racing. You will find yourself changing sails so much because you fear you might lose 0.3 knots here or there. It is exhausting and lures you away from tactics and gaining miles by simply sailing well. It's also not much fun.

I think there are two ways of looking at a racing boat.  One is to make to the best boat for collecting silverware.  If that's the prime goal, then the simplest way of collecting silverware is good.

The other way of looking at the purpose is to make the chase for silverware a spur for the priority of the fun of getting a group of people out on the water and keeping them busy working together. Teamwork feels good, and lots of string-pulling sail-trimming is good teamwork.

I have often peeked at boats on the docks and thought "too much string".  But OTOH, the boat with lots of string is best for teamwork, which is why for example the sail training vessels have deliberately labour-intensive rigs.

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Bob Perry's stout little 20' is for sale again...

https://www.sailingtexas.com/202101/sperry20101.html

...for pennies on the dollar. If I had the scratch I'd buy it!

Featured in Sailing:

https://sailingmagazine.net/article-797-perry-20.html

He posted here about it too.

 

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7 hours ago, blurocketsmate said:

Bob Perry's stout little 20' is for sale again...

https://www.sailingtexas.com/202101/sperry20101.html

...for pennies on the dollar. If I had the scratch I'd buy it!

I have a hunch that if that boat was shipped to somewhere there is more of a traditional boat culture, such as Maine or Port Townsend, it would fetch a higher price.

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20 hours ago, Matagi said:

No link, I made this ;). Here's what went into it:

My thinking was triggered by looking at videos of the Dehler 30OD and the L30, its complicated design and construction process and the myriad of lines you can twist and tweak to get it to speed in races like the Silverrudder. And then there is an avalanche of headsails: genoa, jib, staysail, Code 0, A2, A5, some boats have an Asym and a Sym. Furling, cableless or a jib with a reef? Anything goes. 

To me, that sounds overdoing it for amateur racing. You will find yourself changing sails so much because you fear you might lose 0.3 knots here or there. It is exhausting and lures you away from tactics and gaining miles by simply sailing well. It's also not much fun.

So: what is the simpliest way to do away with all that? And what would also be fun when tackling a 24-48 h race alone or with 2? I want to be able to tow it from my local lake, set it up in an hour and enjoy having time to look at weather and routing, while all the others are still fiddling with their ropes. Also, I believe it's a game of SA/D especially in the smaller classes. A catboat design, especially with three reefs and a wingmast should be very capable in all conditions, can provide safety like a large yacht and speed like a dinghy.

The idea above is a mixture of many designs I like a lot. Mainly they are:

The Hadron H 1 dinghy:

P1000830cs.jpg

It is ca. 4.20m and thus 2m smaller as my idea, but its construction is very close to what I have in mind. Of course, this is a centreboard, and is very, very light, just 80 kg for the hull. My design will weigh around 400 kg, which I think is doable at a length of 6.20m and a beam of ca. 2.2 m. 200kg / 50% will be in the bulb, ca. 1.40 m below. Keel and rudder should be lifting for ease of transport or even ramp launching.

Another design I like very much and from which I'd like to take some classic reminescences for the bow is the Pabouk

6797612d15aabb7048e8f74232ddd668.jpg

Here, the mast is extremely forward. But I still think it is a good idea to give catboat a slightly fuller bow. I would also like to have a watertight bulkhead in front of the mast that you can reach via a watertight hatch inside and also from the top. You could store things there for smaller trips, but in racing mode it would be filled with foam bags to ensure insubmersibility even in case of a hull cracking collision. 

The last design I looked at is the Marblehead 22, I mentioned earlier.

Zurn%20Marblehead%2022%20(3).jpg

I like how it looks classic, but I'm not as much a fan of Wishbone rigs. It's also pretty heavy for its length, and the aft sections are not good for a dinghy-like run. I think of ca. 18sq metres (194sq ft) main sail with three reefs on a carbon mast with three Dyneema stays (maybe even not). With 400kg of displacement, that gives us a SA/D of 33.7, that is more than a Farr 280.

Inside, it's very simple: two bunks below, with watertight sections below them. Another insubmersible section aft, below a slightly elevated aft deck, like in this Saffier. You can put large solar panels on in racing mode, or cushions for cruising. I would also give my design its extremely clever foldable windshield and roof for better protection.

DSC_2437.jpg

I think electrics would be something to closely look at. Propulsion should be electric, but I would also spend an extra dollar on a good navigation package and autopilot. The mainsheet could be splitted in a 1:2 part that goes to an electric captive winch, while the other end is for fine tuning.

Here is another version, with a slightly different bow, stern and mast position:

catboot2.thumb.jpg.7212c256b9223598aec787de26a7b6d0.jpg

 

I could show you a fistful of my own sketches. (And I DO mean sketches, pencil only alas) They all follow these same identical thoughts and ideas.      Someday.... they may become a reality.... someday...!

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15 hours ago, blurocketsmate said:

Bob Perry's stout little 20' is for sale again...

https://www.sailingtexas.com/202101/sperry20101.html

...for pennies on the dollar. If I had the scratch I'd buy it!

Featured in Sailing:

https://sailingmagazine.net/article-797-perry-20.html

He posted here about it too.

 

I love this in Bob's @Bob Perry review:

"Dr. Rob just wanted the porta potty but I could see myself cruising the San Juans in this boat so I added a mini-galley, some V-berths, racks for binoculars, ChapStick, flashlight and a corn cob pipe or two and some lockers for the Dinty Moore."

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On 1/24/2021 at 3:28 PM, Matagi said:

No link, I made this ;). Here's what went into it:

My thinking was triggered by looking at videos of the Dehler 30OD and the L30, its complicated design and construction process and the myriad of lines you can twist and tweak to get it to speed in races like the Silverrudder. And then there is an avalanche of headsails: genoa, jib, staysail, Code 0, A2, A5, some boats have an Asym and a Sym. Furling, cableless or a jib with a reef? Anything goes. 

To me, that sounds overdoing it for amateur racing. You will find yourself changing sails so much because you fear you might lose 0.3 knots here or there. It is exhausting and lures you away from tactics and gaining miles by simply sailing well. It's also not much fun.

So: what is the simpliest way to do away with all that? And what would also be fun when tackling a 24-48 h race alone or with 2? I want to be able to tow it from my local lake, set it up in an hour and enjoy having time to look at weather and routing, while all the others are still fiddling with their ropes. Also, I believe it's a game of SA/D especially in the smaller classes. A catboat design, especially with three reefs and a wingmast should be very capable in all conditions, can provide safety like a large yacht and speed like a dinghy.

The idea above is a mixture of many designs I like a lot. Mainly they are:

The Hadron H 1 dinghy:

P1000830cs.jpg

It is ca. 4.20m and thus 2m smaller as my idea, but its construction is very close to what I have in mind. Of course, this is a centreboard, and is very, very light, just 80 kg for the hull. My design will weigh around 400 kg, which I think is doable at a length of 6.20m and a beam of ca. 2.2 m. 200kg / 50% will be in the bulb, ca. 1.40 m below. Keel and rudder should be lifting for ease of transport or even ramp launching.

Another design I like very much and from which I'd like to take some classic reminescences for the bow is the Pabouk

6797612d15aabb7048e8f74232ddd668.jpg

Here, the mast is extremely forward. But I still think it is a good idea to give catboat a slightly fuller bow. I would also like to have a watertight bulkhead in front of the mast that you can reach via a watertight hatch inside and also from the top. You could store things there for smaller trips, but in racing mode it would be filled with foam bags to ensure insubmersibility even in case of a hull cracking collision. 

The last design I looked at is the Marblehead 22, I mentioned earlier.

Zurn%20Marblehead%2022%20(3).jpg

I like how it looks classic, but I'm not as much a fan of Wishbone rigs. It's also pretty heavy for its length, and the aft sections are not good for a dinghy-like run. I think of ca. 18sq metres (194sq ft) main sail with three reefs on a carbon mast with three Dyneema stays (maybe even not). With 400kg of displacement, that gives us a SA/D of 33.7, that is more than a Farr 280.

Inside, it's very simple: two bunks below, with watertight sections below them. Another insubmersible section aft, below a slightly elevated aft deck, like in this Saffier. You can put large solar panels on in racing mode, or cushions for cruising. I would also give my design its extremely clever foldable windshield and roof for better protection.

DSC_2437.jpg

I think electrics would be something to closely look at. Propulsion should be electric, but I would also spend an extra dollar on a good navigation package and autopilot. The mainsheet could be splitted in a 1:2 part that goes to an electric captive winch, while the other end is for fine tuning.

Here is another version, with a slightly different bow, stern and mast position:

catboot2.thumb.jpg.7212c256b9223598aec787de26a7b6d0.jpg

 

I agree about thee T-bulb being an issue if you are somewhere where there are weed issues. Have you seen Mark Ellis' Naiad? It is an open 18' Nonsuch basically. I am a fan of the wishbone does simplify things. Thirty five years ago (I must of been very young at the time) I sailed the first of these which was a custom cold-moulded boat, built for Gordon Fisher who commissioned the original Nonsuch 30. They only built about 20 f/g ones, I think because they were pricey.

 

 

146716619_ScreenShot2021-01-25at5_46_43PM.thumb.png.55f3ffac49403f9fa05a515132b180f5.png 

 

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That is a very nice looking boat, it reminds me of Hubert Raudaschl's 'Spirit of Piran', or 'RN 20'.

It's ca 6m long, 1,75m wide and weighs just 150 kg, it has a lifting keel with ballast.

Raudaschl is sailmaker and gave this boat a latin sail and later on a junk rig of sorts, very cool.

rn20_2.jpg

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5 hours ago, Matagi said:

That is a very nice looking boat, it reminds me of Hubert Raudaschl's 'Spirit of Piran', or 'RN 20'.

It's ca 6m long, 1,75m wide and weighs just 150 kg, it has a lifting keel with ballast.

Raudaschl is sailmaker and gave this boat a latin sail and later on a junk rig of sorts, very cool.

rn20_2.jpg

The sails for my Wayfarer were built by Raudaschl, the top boats used them or North. 

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38 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

The sails for my Wayfarer were built by Raudaschl, the top boats used them or North. 

The toronto Raudaschal, sailmaker rausaschal also fronted a small keel boat design...late '80's???...20 ft, open keel boat??

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That's why we make it fast enough never to go DDW ;)

But it's easier in a dinghy to play with weight. That's why I think, there is a size limit around 20 to 22 ft where qn essentially large Hadron with a keel would still work. Above that, other weight factors dominate.

You can do a lot with mast positioning, rake and fwd volume, though.

 

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17 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

The only thing worse than a boat that doesn’t sail to weather is one that won’t go down wind. Cat rigs suck DDW. Gotta balance the COE somehow. 

If you trim the main a little, the force off the sail includes a vector pulling the bow to leeward, partially reducing weather helm. This trick does not work in sloops because the mast is too far aft.

A good catboat design has enough sail area that you can afford to trim for balance,  not for best aerodynamic efficiency. 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, SemiSalt said:
17 hours ago, Kenny Dumas said:

The only thing worse than a boat that doesn’t sail to weather is one that won’t go down wind. Cat rigs suck DDW. Gotta balance the COE somehow. 

If you trim the main a little, the force off the sail includes a vector pulling the bow to leeward, partially reducing weather helm. This trick does not work in sloops because the mast is too far aft.

A good catboat design has enough sail area that you can afford to trim for balance,  not for best aerodynamic efficiency. 

Besides, it's a catboat. If stuff like that bothers you, don't get one.

Or, you can set a blooper.

FB- Doug

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22 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Besides, it's a catboat. If stuff like that bothers you, don't get one.

Or, you can set a blooper.

I like the idea of a catboat with blooper.  A fine way to screw with the heads of onlookers

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On 1/28/2021 at 5:10 AM, bmiller said:

I'm too lazy to scroll up, what ever happened with the A28 in Idaho?

We're in the process of buying her!  Updates soon.  

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On 1/28/2021 at 5:24 AM, SemiSalt said:

If you trim the main a little, the force off the sail includes a vector pulling the bow to leeward, partially reducing weather helm. This trick does not work in sloops because the mast is too far aft.

A good catboat design has enough sail area that you can afford to trim for balance,  not for best aerodynamic efficiency. 

 

 

 

Indeed, also, if you practice on a Laser, you'll figure out how to make it go downwind. DDW, no. By the lee? oh yeah.

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On 1/29/2021 at 11:38 AM, Bull City said:

How did the survey happen?

I found a well reputed local shipwright to take a close look at her and spend an hour on the phone with me running through the boat.  I'll get an insurance survey done once she arrives here.  I also did a bunch of research into the owner & the yard where she's kept which made me comfortable enough to recommend moving forward.  

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3 hours ago, socalrider said:

I found a well reputed local shipwright to take a close look at her and spend an hour on the phone with me running through the boat.  I'll get an insurance survey done once she arrives here.  I also did a bunch of research into the owner & the yard where she's kept which made me comfortable enough to recommend moving forward.  

That sounds like a very sensible approach. You were dealing with a well regarded production boat, not too old, and not a lot complicated systems.

Please post photos of Mom and Dad sailing her! :D

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

That sounds like a very sensible approach. You were dealing with a well regarded production boat, not too old, and not a lot complicated systems.

Please post photos of Mom and Dad sailing her! :D

Exactly - and the price was good enough that we'll still be in good shape even if there are a few surprises.  

49 minutes ago, Alan H said:

Yeah, I want to see her sailing in San Diego, with mom and dad aboard, too.

Me too!  I'll certainly take some pics once we're up and running.  Still have to get her here, re-rigged, deal with the trailer, etc. etc...  But the parents are very excited.  Even though it's 10x the price of an older plastic boat, she's beautiful, and should be easier for them to manage.  She's small and straightforward enough that my daughters should be able to take them out sailing as well once they've got her figured out.  

Edit: checking back to my original post 6 pages ago the A28 was the first serious candidate I mentioned.  Thanks all for the input - this is a great thread.  

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13 hours ago, socalrider said:

Exactly - and the price was good enough that we'll still be in good shape even if there are a few surprises.  

Me too!  I'll certainly take some pics once we're up and running.  Still have to get her here, re-rigged, deal with the trailer, etc. etc...  But the parents are very excited.  Even though it's 10x the price of an older plastic boat, she's beautiful, and should be easier for them to manage.  She's small and straightforward enough that my daughters should be able to take them out sailing as well once they've got her figured out.  

Edit: checking back to my original post 6 pages ago the A28 was the first serious candidate I mentioned.  Thanks all for the input - this is a great thread.  

Congratulations. Beautiful boat.

Is it a done deal?

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3 hours ago, Ripply said:

It's like somebody read the title of this thread. 

"KISS22:  The daysailer for every senior racing sailer"

Kiss22-sailplan.jpg

https://www.kiss22-daysailer.info/

 

They pat themselves on the back for finally coming up with the solution...

Apparently, they missed the Marblehead 22. (Discussed previously in this thread, as was this one also mentioned).  It’s for ‘senior’ sailors but has a cockpit for young’ uns.  There’s no comfort there.  Back to the drawing board boys and also add about 8 or 10’ loa.  (But you’re on the right track...)

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5 hours ago, Veeger said:

They pat themselves on the back for finally coming up with the solution...

Apparently, they missed the Marblehead 22. (Discussed previously in this thread, as was this one also mentioned).  It’s for ‘senior’ sailors but has a cockpit for young’ uns.  There’s no comfort there.  Back to the drawing board boys and also add about 8 or 10’ loa.  (But you’re on the right track...)

Whoops I missed that one being mentioned earlier.  Good point about comfort- have to agree there.  Squeezing into that interior looks like a young person's game also.  And seniors certainly don't need lifelines or pulpits, right?  ;) 

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23 hours ago, Ripply said:

It's like somebody read the title of this thread. 

"KISS22:  The daysailer for every senior racing sailer"

Kiss-D.jpg

https://www.kiss22-daysailer.info/

 

Yeah, I had seen that, it is very close to what I had in mind. I'm not sure of the progress of this project, though, last I saw was that the yard in question is building a Waarschip 30 CR, not something like this. They also have the Waarschip 700, which is very close to the proportions of this one. Might just as well change the rig and off you go.

A lifting keel and rudder would help ramp launching it. I'm not a fan of Wishbone rigs, I think much of what you gain aerodynamically with an unstayed mast gets lost with turbulence created from this boom that sits right across where most lift is created.

catboot3.thumb.jpg.ee1069daf2d75e5757ee93af511e4b1b.jpg

Edit: 

Btw: The idea is not that new, the Wyliecat 17 is a very similar concept, much smaller of course.

Wyliecat-17-Sail-Data_1.jpg?resizeid=3

img4255.jpg

Wyliecat-17-Sail-Data_1.jpg?resizeid=3 

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Update: funds have been transferred & documentation is complete!  We have a boat!  

She should arrive here on Wednesday or Thursday; Driscoll yard will splash her and Rigworks will tension the rig, then we'll take her over to her slip at Harbor Island West.  

Just so happens we came to the top of the wait list for a mooring ball for our trawler at America's Cup Harbor last week after seven years!  So I will keep the A28 and a dinghy at HIW and the trawler on the mooring - for a total moorage of about 30% what it would be at Kona Kai.  That buys a lot of boat parts.  

Couple of pics from the seller attached.  I'll take some fresh ones once she's back in salt water.  

DSCF9487 2.jpeg

IMG_0455.jpeg

DSCF9485.jpeg

dsc_0443_2 2.jpg

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2 hours ago, Bull City said:

Sweet. Looks like she had been home ported in Naples, Florida.

Yup. One owner, in FL until moved to ID four years ago. 

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On 2/4/2021 at 12:12 PM, socalrider said:

Update: funds have been transferred & documentation is complete!  We have a boat!  

She should arrive here on Wednesday or Thursday; Driscoll yard will splash her and Rigworks will tension the rig, then we'll take her over to her slip at Harbor Island West.  

Just so happens we came to the top of the wait list for a mooring ball for our trawler at America's Cup Harbor last week after seven years!  So I will keep the A28 and a dinghy at HIW and the trawler on the mooring - for a total moorage of about 30% what it would be at Kona Kai.  That buys a lot of boat parts.  

Couple of pics from the seller attached.  I'll take some fresh ones once she's back in salt water.  

DSCF9487 2.jpeg

IMG_0455.jpeg

DSCF9485.jpeg

dsc_0443_2 2.jpg

Congrats. One of my favourites boats of all time.  Also love the name Boadicea, which happens to be the name of my gravel bike!  That was woman with stones!

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1 hour ago, Son of Hans said:

Altair is looking forward to meeting her sister! 

Thanks so much for letting us take a look at her!  Not sure we would have had the confidence to buy remotely if it wasn’t for your generous offer to show us your baby!

Lets start a one design fleet!  :)

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6 hours ago, kinardly said:

Looks great. You've got to be besides yourself with anticipation.

We are. Been a rough year, but the parents are vaccinated now and we have a boat on the way. Things are looking up. 

CA7C3A87-B39C-499D-80FB-5D45604F3736.jpeg

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19 hours ago, socalrider said:

All packed up and ready to go.  Should arrive on Thursday!

image.png.c04cc781f699d5c3d66961829f1a7582.png

Impressive job prepping the boat for a road trip. I like the custom built cradle carrying the mast, fits nicely around the jib boom.

 

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2 hours ago, Bull City said:

@socalrider She looks beautiful. Who's going to keep up the brightwork? ;)

Well so far we've had mixed results in our varnish training program for 7-12 year old girls.  Wife seems to genuinely enjoy it, though mostly I suspect because it pulls her away from all the other 7-12 year old girl training programs to which she has been committed, and of course commits me to said programs in her stead.  Which drives me in turn to develop a previously undiscovered affinity for brightwork.  

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Like the look of that boat, it looks most suitable.

Love the name, well I would living in Bouddicca's Iceni tribe homeland.. Which is Norfolk, UK..

Coincidentally this picture is taken at Norfolk Broads Yacht Club,  I've sailed there occasionally. image.thumb.png.05a161feab28c593d04137d364df4644.png

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34 minutes ago, socalrider said:

Well so far we've had mixed results in our varnish training program for 7-12 year old girls.  Wife seems to genuinely enjoy it, though mostly I suspect because it pulls her away from all the other 7-12 year old girl training programs to which she has been committed, and of course commits me to said programs in her stead.  Which drives me in turn to develop a previously undiscovered affinity for brightwork.  

Brightwork as escape. I like it.

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32 minutes ago, The Q said:

Like the look of that boat, it looks most suitable.

Love the name, well I would living in Bouddicca's Iceni tribe homeland.. Which is Norfolk, UK..

Coincidentally this picture is taken at Norfolk Broads Yacht Club,  I've sailed there occasionally. image.thumb.png.05a161feab28c593d04137d364df4644.png

that's one seriously hot dinghy...what is it?

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  • 1 month later...

So, where to begin on this thread.  I don't mind one bit sitting "on the boat" as oppressed to "in the boat".  How can you possibly see and be aware of what is going on around you your sitting "in the boat"!

I just purchased the ESSE 850 listed and pictured on this thread here.  Should have her here in about two weeks.  I can hardly wait!  We will race in the Puget Sound (Seattle) area.   As quite literally a life long sailor, primarily racer since I was 10yo and about to become 76 on May 1.  The discussion on this thread was intriguing so I thought I will add a few more thoughts. 

Having raced so many different designs ( dinghies & keel boats up to a Santa Cruz 50 and everything imaginable in between) over the years a few things really resonate with me.  Following are my personal thoughts.

A light weight, maneuverable boat is much more easily driven, fun and enjoyable to sail, race then a, well you know where I am going with that.  I 100% subscribe to Bill Lee's comments of some years ago in the early years of the ULDB.  Quite simply put Bill said "Fast is Fun"!  So very simple and true.  The ESSE rates ~72 in PHRF all over the country, same as a J35 and Express 38.  The ESSE can be raced with a crew of 3, the J35 & the Express 37, depending where your racing a crew of 7 or 8 is typical.  When I raced my J35 on SF bay, spring & summer we always had 9 to 11 crew.  That's a lot of sandwiches and beer every weekend. LOL

So, to close on this, look at the specifications of the ESSE 850 on https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/esse-850

With a ballast/displacement of 56% and a sail area/displacement 41.21 you know it is going to be stiff and speedy.  Add a PHRF rating of ~70's it will be no slouch.  Only downside all the boats you will be racing against will be much larger, wait is that really a downside?  Remember small light weight boats sit "on the water" whereas big boats sit "in the water"!

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1 hour ago, 1963Stingray said:

So, where to begin on this thread.  I don't mind one bit sitting "on the boat" as oppressed to "in the boat".  How can you possibly see and be aware of what is going on around you your sitting "in the boat"!

I just purchased the ESSE 850 listed and pictured on this thread here.  Should have her here in about two weeks.  I can hardly wait!  We will race in the Puget Sound (Seattle) area.   As quite literally a life long sailor, primarily racer since I was 10yo and about to become 76 on May 1.  The discussion on this thread was intriguing so I thought I will add a few more thoughts. 

Having raced so many different designs ( dinghies & keel boats up to a Santa Cruz 50 and everything imaginable in between) over the years a few things really resonate with me.  Following are my personal thoughts.

A light weight, maneuverable boat is much more easily driven, fun and enjoyable to sail, race then a, well you know where I am going with that.  I 100% subscribe to Bill Lee's comments of some years ago in the early years of the ULDB.  Quite simply put Bill said "Fast is Fun"!  So very simple and true.  The ESSE rates ~72 in PHRF all over the country, same as a J35 and Express 38.  The ESSE can be raced with a crew of 3, the J35 & the Express 37, depending where your racing a crew of 7 or 8 is typical.  When I raced my J35 on SF bay, spring & summer we always had 9 to 11 crew.  That's a lot of sandwiches and beer every weekend. LOL

So, to close on this, look at the specifications of the ESSE 850 on https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/esse-850

With a ballast/displacement of 56% and a sail area/displacement 41.21 you know it is going to be stiff and speedy.  Add a PHRF rating of ~70's it will be no slouch.  Only downside all the boats you will be racing against will be much larger, wait is that really a downside?  Remember small light weight boats sit "on the water" whereas big boats sit "in the water"!

Great decision, looking forward for pictures!

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6 hours ago, Matagi said:

Great decision, looking forward for pictures!

+1!  I’m jealous - that Esse is a sexy beast. Keep us posted!

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A few pics, enjoy.  Yes it has a 15hp inboard Yanmar diesel.  Water skiing, wake boarding anyone...

1.jpg

2.jpg

4.jpg

14.jpg

15.jpg

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We will do a formal name change ceremony also, don't want any ghosts on board.

New name will be;

SHAKEN NOT STIRRED  

 

16.jpg

17.jpg

18.jpg

19.jpg

25.jpg

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On 10/3/2020 at 2:28 PM, SemiSalt said:

Shields Class. S&S design, probably the last racing boats of any popularity with "full keel", i.e. fin keel with attached rudder. I think they race with 4 or 5 aboard. It's got approx 350 sq ft of sail on approx 4500 lbs displacement. 

No engine, of course, and putting an OB one would would be worse vandalism than Bull having an OB on an H-boat.

I used to race a Shields. They are wonderful sailors, but they would be a handful for a couple in their 70s (says a guy in his 70s) unless they have been sailing their whole lives.

My vote would be the Alerion 20. Nice looks, easy handling, sails beautifully. 

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On 12/14/2020 at 9:23 AM, socalrider said:

Thanks guys.  I suspect coamings are a requirement, much as I love the Esse myself.  J/27 is a possibility.  

There's a Synergy 1000 listed up in SF.  Bigger, ,more protected cockpit, 33', 4300lbs, small inboard, asking $55k.  Could set it up with a dutchman and maybe even rig a self-tacker with a small jib.  And secretly plot a Transpac run...

 

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This thread started with comparing the ESSE to the Synergy 1000.  The Synergy 1000 is a great boat, make no mistake about that.  I raced against several of them for years in SF Bay.  They are fast and sail to their rating, (40's typically) providing you have 7 to 10 of your best friends for rail meat.  The ESSE can be raced competitively with total crew and skipper of only 2 or 3, so.  Also worth noting the ESSE rates (70's typically) an approximately 30 sec/mile difference which is significant.

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On 10/7/2020 at 8:17 PM, socalrider said:

Neither am I!  :)  

I think you've nailed it...this is what's in my Mom's head:

image.png.f6286f62289d0f3b03effc23cf9e36df.png

That may be the most honest post I’ve ever seen on SA....

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On 11/10/2020 at 3:48 PM, SemiSalt said:

I can't identify this one. I think it's not any of the Alerions; they all seem to have teak handholds on the cabin top.

20201110_144313.jpg

Oh shit!    ........oh, it’s light blue.....

Almost jumped in the car there....

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On 11/23/2020 at 2:51 PM, Norm01 said:

the Marblehead look great - how would it sail with a bit of breeze and that cat rig ? 

Kind of heavy.....

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On 12/23/2020 at 8:50 AM, TwoLegged said:

I think a 2:1 purchase is much easier than hanging over the coaming to grind a winch.  YMMV.

Self-tacking jibs are handy, but unless you use a Hoyt job boom, you end up with a job which is useless offwind.

Overlapping genoas are the work of the devil.  A curse on whoever made you have one

There’s something to that.  With our Hoyt Jib on the 40er, and multipart sheets we really could get rid of 2 winches.  Still, a dedicated upwind deck scraper and an off wind smallish (but bigger than a blade) flying something would be neat too.  

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On 12/23/2020 at 9:46 AM, socalrider said:

Yup. 

Alerion, J/100 (none on W. Coast), or... there's a Wyliecat 30 in Marina del Ray!  I love those boats.  They're asking a pretty penny but it looks great.  And no varnishing.  

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1997/wyliecat-30-3708018/

If only the Wylie’s would come with a real light air sail.  Like a really taller mast.  No Cetol..... mmmmmm.......

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On 1/20/2021 at 9:33 AM, socalrider said:

I think that's right.  Another good rule for me at least (maybe exceptions for liveaboards & full-time cruisers) is that having a boat should be pure pleasure.  If you're stressed about maintenance costs, docking fees, making rent, etc. then your boat is contravening this objective.  So whatever boat you buy for this purpose should be cheap for you, meaning a total loss won't be ruinous.

Your point reinforces this rule: if a $50,000 boat stresses you out, a $5,000 boat will give you 80-90% of the enjoyment, so get the cheaper one.  Or join a club.  Or crew.  Worst thing you can do is sit around waiting until you can "afford" the expensive one.  

Some of my most enjoyable sailing was pooting around in our little Trinka 10 dinghy in 5kts when my girls were little.  

Beetle Cat! :wub:

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On 12/23/2020 at 2:36 PM, Raz'r said:

They sail surprisingly well. The only time I ever raced it we were given a J24 rating and finished first in the little boat class.  But it's not a racer, and that course particularly favored us with a DDW start, then two tight reaches home.  It wouldn't do well on a WL, but reaching? Fun!

But if it went upwind as well as, say, a Finn, the advantage would be that you could tack on every gust cell, have shape control without asking, see the whole sail without running from size to side, with no rude gestures from the crew!  Or mutinies.....  That would something....

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On 1/24/2021 at 12:28 PM, Matagi said:

No link, I made this ;). Here's what went into it:

My thinking was triggered by looking at videos of the Dehler 30OD and the L30, its complicated design and construction process and the myriad of lines you can twist and tweak to get it to speed in races like the Silverrudder. And then there is an avalanche of headsails: genoa, jib, staysail, Code 0, A2, A5, some boats have an Asym and a Sym. Furling, cableless or a jib with a reef? Anything goes. 

To me, that sounds overdoing it for amateur racing. You will find yourself changing sails so much because you fear you might lose 0.3 knots here or there. It is exhausting and lures you away from tactics and gaining miles by simply sailing well. It's also not much fun.

So: what is the simpliest way to do away with all that? And what would also be fun when tackling a 24-48 h race alone or with 2? I want to be able to tow it from my local lake, set it up in an hour and enjoy having time to look at weather and routing, while all the others are still fiddling with their ropes. Also, I believe it's a game of SA/D especially in the smaller classes. A catboat design, especially with three reefs and a wingmast should be very capable in all conditions, can provide safety like a large yacht and speed like a dinghy.

The idea above is a mixture of many designs I like a lot. Mainly they are:

The Hadron H 1 dinghy:

P1000830cs.jpg

It is ca. 4.20m and thus 2m smaller as my idea, but its construction is very close to what I have in mind. Of course, this is a centreboard, and is very, very light, just 80 kg for the hull. My design will weigh around 400 kg, which I think is doable at a length of 6.20m and a beam of ca. 2.2 m. 200kg / 50% will be in the bulb, ca. 1.40 m below. Keel and rudder should be lifting for ease of transport or even ramp launching.

Another design I like very much and from which I'd like to take some classic reminescences for the bow is the Pabouk

6797612d15aabb7048e8f74232ddd668.jpg

Here, the mast is extremely forward. But I still think it is a good idea to give catboat a slightly fuller bow. I would also like to have a watertight bulkhead in front of the mast that you can reach via a watertight hatch inside and also from the top. You could store things there for smaller trips, but in racing mode it would be filled with foam bags to ensure insubmersibility even in case of a hull cracking collision. 

The last design I looked at is the Marblehead 22, I mentioned earlier.

Zurn%20Marblehead%2022%20(3).jpg

I like how it looks classic, but I'm not as much a fan of Wishbone rigs. It's also pretty heavy for its length, and the aft sections are not good for a dinghy-like run. I think of ca. 18sq metres (194sq ft) main sail with three reefs on a carbon mast with three Dyneema stays (maybe even not). With 400kg of displacement, that gives us a SA/D of 33.7, that is more than a Farr 280.

Inside, it's very simple: two bunks below, with watertight sections below them. Another insubmersible section aft, below a slightly elevated aft deck, like in this Saffier. You can put large solar panels on in racing mode, or cushions for cruising. I would also give my design its extremely clever foldable windshield and roof for better protection.

DSC_2437.jpg

I think electrics would be something to closely look at. Propulsion should be electric, but I would also spend an extra dollar on a good navigation package and autopilot. The mainsheet could be splitted in a 1:2 part that goes to an electric captive winch, while the other end is for fine tuning.

Here is another version, with a slightly different bow, stern and mast position:

catboot2.thumb.jpg.7212c256b9223598aec787de26a7b6d0.jpg

 

I’d nominate adding the Finn to the influences, 25 ~ 30’, some sort of foil mast.  Somebody did a larger Finn in Germany (from a yard that does monotypes too?) a few years back, having that kind of sail control might be fun..... do a Finot type swiveling keel like the Pogos have....  keep the blister... (either that or an Int 110 hull with Swedish sitting out wings, unstayed main and an off wind sail of sorts..... blister like Forte did with the turboed 110...)  Another way to go would be using a U20 hull mold - weight would be in the 400kg ballpark, and with a big enough single sail, she’d be spunky.  Just before Abbott burned, I talked to them if it was feasible, and he seemed to like it.  I’ve moved on since then, but it seemed like a neat idea, given the shape of the U 20 hull.  You might say the same thing about the Antrim 27 mold, which they just used to do a carbon version, but the bow is a bit fuller there..... that would blow the Wylie 30 out of the water?  :rolleyes:

 

2AFAC224-6B4E-4375-A1B6-3DDE41AB68DD.png

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2 hours ago, Amati said:

Oh shit!    ........oh, it’s light blue.....

Almost jumped in the car there....

Looks a LOT like a J 100 :wub:  I could be wrong, wont be the first time.

Amati, just FYI I was raised in Marblehead, learned to sail / race at the Eastern YC jr. program. when I was ~10, still at it 66 years later, so ya I am 76yo.  The one thing which I feel is sad is that I was taught to sail & race by men my age now.  They consistently tried to instill in all of us the "Corinthian Spirit" of what sailboat racing was all about.  Sadly, this has been lost over the years with too much, all the emphasis on winning, no matter what!  Sooo very sad!

I sincerely hope others reading this post will take to heart my comments r.e. the "Corinthian Spirit"!

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On 1/24/2021 at 12:28 PM, Matagi said:

No link, I made this ;). Here's what went into it:

My thinking was triggered by looking at videos of the Dehler 30OD and the L30, its complicated design and construction process and the myriad of lines you can twist and tweak to get it to speed in races like the Silverrudder. And then there is an avalanche of headsails: genoa, jib, staysail, Code 0, A2, A5, some boats have an Asym and a Sym. Furling, cableless or a jib with a reef? Anything goes. 

To me, that sounds overdoing it for amateur racing. You will find yourself changing sails so much because you fear you might lose 0.3 knots here or there. It is exhausting and lures you away from tactics and gaining miles by simply sailing well. It's also not much fun.

So: what is the simpliest way to do away with all that? And what would also be fun when tackling a 24-48 h race alone or with 2? I want to be able to tow it from my local lake, set it up in an hour and enjoy having time to look at weather and routing, while all the others are still fiddling with their ropes. Also, I believe it's a game of SA/D especially in the smaller classes. A catboat design, especially with three reefs and a wingmast should be very capable in all conditions, can provide safety like a large yacht and speed like a dinghy.

The idea above is a mixture of many designs I like a lot. Mainly they are:

The Hadron H 1 dinghy: