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Nicely done.  I like your sailplan with boomless main.  The jib seemed to have a longer overlap than I've seen on other F22s.  Good video.

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My old boat!!!! ,Corsair Sprint 750 Mk1. They sailed it like the devil and deserved to beat us by 10 seconds. They’re faster upwind and we’re faster downwind. Great competition and on the same handicap. 

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On 10/6/2020 at 1:14 AM, MultiThom said:

Nicely done.  I like your sailplan with boomless main.  The jib seemed to have a longer overlap than I've seen on other F22s.  Good video.

I don’t like the boomless main. This is the cruising rig mast and the original sailplan was hopeless from a performance perspective. The main wasn’t powerful enough having quite a small head and the foot length wrong to match the designed traveller position. Without a boom the clew to traveller angle has to be exactly right so that the foot and leech tension are balanced. Just like getting the sheeting angle of a screecher right. A boom solves all those problems. 
The standard Cruising rig jib is too small to pull the boat through chop in anything below 15 knots. I went from the 9.9sqm furled jib to a hanked  fully battened 13.1sqm jib and it transformed the boat. I couldn’t get the extra area with luff length because of the shorter cruising mast so had to increase the foot length and overlap significantly. It works well except for the occasional hook up on the spreaders in quick tacks. Good crew work and awareness solve the problem. 
Ideally I would have the R rig with a carbon mast and a boom. What I’ve been able to do with work arounds though has resulted in a pretty nice rig and a very fun boat to race. 

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33 minutes ago, WetnWild said:

I don’t like the boomless main. This is the cruising rig mast and the original sailplan was hopeless from a performance perspective. The main wasn’t powerful enough having quite a small head and the foot length wrong to match the designed traveller position. Without a boom the clew to traveller angle has to be exactly right so that the foot and leech tension are balanced. Just like getting the sheeting angle of a screecher right. A boom solves all those problems. 
The standard Cruising rig jib is too small to pull the boat through chop in anything below 15 knots. I went from the 9.9sqm furled jib to a hanked  fully battened 13.1sqm jib and it transformed the boat. I couldn’t get the extra area with luff length because of the shorter cruising mast so had to increase the foot length and overlap significantly. It works well except for the occasional hook up on the spreaders in quick tacks. Good crew work and awareness solve the problem. 
Ideally I would have the R rig with a carbon mast and a boom. What I’ve been able to do with work arounds though has resulted in a pretty nice rig and a very fun boat to race. 

Maybe you can find another F22 owner with the race rig, who just wants to cruise and would be happy to swap

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That’d be good. I’m not entirely unhappy as I’ve developed the rig to better suit the mast. No original sails on it. Decent big head main, jib as above, nice big screecher and masthead kite. But bigger carbon mast is nirvana. 

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16 hours ago, WetnWild said:

I don’t like the boomless main.

Without a boom the clew to traveller angle has to be exactly right so that the foot and leech tension are balanced.

A boom solves all those problems. 

I also prefer a boom to assist with shaping the sail.

On our F-82R we use a simple soft shackle around the boom to connect the mainsheet to the clew, with the outhaul connected directly to the clew. 

The vertical leech tension passes right around the boom via the soft shackle, and the only purpose of the boom is to resist the horizontal outhaul loads - like a giant batten. 

With this setup it's easy to twist off the top of the main to depower, or harden the leech to get more point as required. 

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I understand why a race oriented boat would prefer a boom (although you gotta ask all those F25C owners why they don't switch).  My last three boats have been boomless and I prefer the safety of boomless.   Many deaths in sailing are from 1) boom to the back of the head or 2) falling off the boat.  Nice to be able to eliminate one.  I also like the fact that with boomless you really don't need a mast rotation limiter since there's nothing pushing the mast (upwind anyway).  I do know that it is nice to have more things to have crew to do (outhaul, mast rotation) but a single hander (like me) appreciates the simplicity.  I don't miss messing with outhaul and repairing/replacing outhaul sheaves.  Don't miss the extra weight either.  I do miss the ease of reefing.

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23 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

I understand why a race oriented boat would prefer a boom (although you gotta ask all those F25C owners why they don't switch).  

As with most things in sailing everything is a compromise.

The main reason (no pun intended) that more boats don't switch between boom and boomless is because the traveler position is different (see plans below). 

Our boat has a glassed bulkhead in the cockpit adjacent to the aft beams to support the traveler, and there is currently nothing but air in the aft traveler position required for a boomless main, so we'd have to modify the boat to go boomless.

 

 

image.png

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Why wouldn't an owner leave the traveler "back there" and get a longer boom and bigger mainsail?  I suspect it has something to do with compression loads which is why you typically put the traveler close to the beam attachments.  Anyway, absolutely correct, sailing (and sailboats) is one of those compromise activities.

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I'm not a boat or sail designer, but I understand that the center of effort (COE) of the overall sail plan needs to match the COE of the daggerboard.

Getting a bigger boom and mainsail would move the COE of the overall sail plan aft, which would result in significant weather helm and an un-balanced boat.

To compensate you would somehow need to move the COE of the daggerboard aft to compensate, or increase the COE of the foresail plan to match the mainsail.

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19 minutes ago, gspot said:

I'm not a boat or sail designer, but I understand that the center of effort (COE) of the overall sail plan needs to match the COE of the daggerboard.

Getting a bigger boom and mainsail would move the COE of the overall sail plan aft, which would result in significant weather helm and an un-balanced boat.

To compensate you would somehow need to move the COE of the daggerboard aft to compensate, or increase the COE of the foresail plan to match the mainsail.

Or rake the mast forward, or change the COE of the mainsail to further forward (move camber placement forward and/or change camber %), or move forestay higher...lots of stuff to fiddle with.   Not that you'd want to do any of those things, F25C and F8x are pretty good boats the way they are.  Excellent performance in light and heavy winds.  Decent accommodations.  Shame there aren't more of them.  

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I totally agree - I'm thrilled with the F82R.

It kind of seems like the F-22 was intended to be the current production answer to the F25C and F8x boats, but that seems to be going more slowly than expected, so many thanks to WetnWild for posting the video so we can see it in action!!!

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19 hours ago, gspot said:

I totally agree - I'm thrilled with the F82R.

It kind of seems like the F-22 was intended to be the current production answer to the F25C and F8x boats, but that seems to be going more slowly than expected, so many thanks to WetnWild for posting the video so we can see it in action!!!

I am curious about the note on boomless reefing on the graphic you posted.  Seems a good idea never to need to release the mainsheet from the main clew, but I've never seen a rope clutch small enough to put on a clewboard (even a spinlock would be pretty bulky).   Wet'n'wild, have you had to reef with your boomless main?  A clutch would be cool.  

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1 hour ago, MultiThom said:

I am curious about the note on boomless reefing on the graphic you posted.  Seems a good idea never to need to release the mainsheet from the main clew, but I've never seen a rope clutch small enough to put on a clewboard (even a spinlock would be pretty bulky).   Wet'n'wild, have you had to reef with your boomless main?  A clutch would be cool.  

I've also never seen such a small clutch. I think Matt Scharl has a reasonable approach to boomless reefing on page 278 of How to Maintain an F-Boat:

Reefing – F-25C, Gamera

1st version, parts necessary line with shackle on it, short double loop strop and a block with a shackle attached.

Attach strop and block to traveler (above main traveler), line through block and attached to bottom clew. Tighten open end of line to winch and release main-sheet, lower main halyard to reef point and reattach main sheet to second reef point. Sounds good in theory, then try it in the double-hand race 3 years ago when the wind went from 0 to 40 knots in under 5 minutes. Main flying around like crazy, bottom line doesn't work. Should have hove to like Ron did.

2nd version, parts necessary, same as above but two additional short lines. Take the 2 short lines and attach each to 1st and 2nd reef points, assume 6 foot slabs, tie a bowline or splice 4 1/2 feet below reef point, attach bungee cord to splice and to bottom clew and 1st reef point. This is to keep lines from flying around. Ok reef now, attach strop and run line through block, but instead of the 1st reef point go to lower splice attached to the bungee cord. tighten with winch, release main-sheet, lower main halyard, tighten reef line more, reattach main sheet to 1st reef point. No more flying around main clews. Worked well, but, I'm a perfectionist. Sail solo often, Chicago to Mac solo race in June among others. Just can't stand losing a second.

3rd version, Parts: buy 2 fiddle blocks, both with shackles and one with a cam cleat, kinda like an old vang. Optional: replace your halyards and use an old piece of spectra for the line, or old line laying around. Now reef, one fiddle(the one with the cleat) to strop on traveler the other to the splice on the reef line, tighten, remove main-sheet, lower halyard, tighten more, reattach main-sheet. clean up lower slab. DONE, less than 2 minutes, solo, no hove too, no change in course.

A note on when to reef…. Upwind the boat can handle 20 knots in flat water, no problem, downwind you better have a good team (I have this) with weight way back. Waves are different, I like to be reefed by 22knots, there is a very fine line here. Downwind in bigger waves reefing early is good, less stabbing, can climb back up the front of waves better, meaning the wave you just surfed down. The boat is very top heavy in big wind downwind in waves, wants to dig, the 31's don't seem to have this problem. The F-25Cs, while more responsive, need extra care, with the right systems in place no conditions are impossible.

Matt

Gamera

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Never considered reefing without heaving to.  Heaving to with self tacking jib takes some additional tackle so I'm interested in doing this even though I have no crew to play with the cunningham and halyard (single hand my boat).  My mainsail is much smaller than an F25C, so I probably don't need a lot of power to bring the clew down from the reefing strap-especially since I could be feeding the mainsheet out at the same time.  Don't want to unshackle the mainsheet, though; that's why the idea of a rope clutch is so attractive.   

Safest is to; furl jib, head to wind, release halyard, bring sail down so cunningham reaches reef grommet, secure reef strap to mainsheet (this is where the rope clutch would be cool--would only take seconds and not have to release mainsheet from clew); rehoist main; clean up and start sailing again.  

Might try...head to wind, bring reef strap down to mainsheet by releasing mainsheet and hauling down on reef strap with ??? and tie off/cleat (again, would be nice to have a rope clutch), release halyard to drop reef grommet down far enough to hook cunningham.  Raise halyard and secure, sheet mainsail, fall off to start sailing again, clean up.  

 

 

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On 10/8/2020 at 1:56 AM, MultiThom said:

I understand why a race oriented boat would prefer a boom (although you gotta ask all those F25C owners why they don't switch).  My last three boats have been boomless and I prefer the safety of boomless.   Many deaths in sailing are from 1) boom to the back of the head or 2) falling off the boat.  Nice to be able to eliminate one.  I also like the fact that with boomless you really don't need a mast rotation limiter since there's nothing pushing the mast (upwind anyway).  I do know that it is nice to have more things to have crew to do (outhaul, mast rotation) but a single hander (like me) appreciates the simplicity.  I don't miss messing with outhaul and repairing/replacing outhaul sheaves.  Don't miss the extra weight either.  I do miss the ease of reefing.

Agree 100% if I were a cruiser. But my idea of a cruise is getting from the marina to the start line. And my crew understand that if they fall off we’ll come back after the race and see if they’re still around. They also remain busy all the time adjusting sails, rotation, cunningham, tidying ropes, moving weight distribution, looking for shifts/pressure on the water, planning and setting up for the next tack/gybe/mark rounding and checking where the opposition is and what they are doing. Of course they would also be attending to the needs of the skipper!!!!

i also like to be able to control mast rotation as it critical for efficiency on a wing mast and big head sail. Without a boom it’s set up on the cabin top and positive rather than restrictive. To windward I’m  looking to maximise flow and can power up with more or depower with less. Downwind max rotation to get the mast in the strong plane with the masthead kite. I don’t run backstays 

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On 10/8/2020 at 2:59 AM, gspot said:

I'm not a boat or sail designer, but I understand that the center of effort (COE) of the overall sail plan needs to match the COE of the daggerboard.

Getting a bigger boom and mainsail would move the COE of the overall sail plan aft, which would result in significant weather helm and an un-balanced boat.

To compensate you would somehow need to move the COE of the daggerboard aft to compensate, or increase the COE of the foresail plan to match the mainsail.

That’s exactly what I did. Bigger main and bigger headsail. 

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5 hours ago, MultiThom said:

I am curious about the note on boomless reefing on the graphic you posted.  Seems a good idea never to need to release the mainsheet from the main clew, but I've never seen a rope clutch small enough to put on a clewboard (even a spinlock would be pretty bulky).   Wet'n'wild, have you had to reef with your boomless main?  A clutch would be cool.  

We go first reef at just over 20 and second reef at over 25 and to the bar at over 30. I have roller furling around a bottom batten exactly like the Corsair Sprint/Dash around their booms. So reefing is quick and easy. I have two clips on 150mm and 200mm dyneema on the top Mainsheet block which attach to the end swivel fitting and the clew plate. So ease sheet, Cunningham hook out, Clew clip out, ease halyard to reefing point while rolling up sail with handle then clew clip in to webbing on reinforced leech Reefing point. Cunningham back in then sheet on and go. We can do it in under a minute. 

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On 10/8/2020 at 1:51 PM, gspot said:

I've also never seen such a small clutch. I think Matt Scharl has a reasonable approach to boomless reefing on page 278 of How to Maintain an F-Boat:

 

Turns out it is a full size clutch.  On my much smaller mainsail I can get bye with a camcleat and fairlead or a spinlock; which I will add, so thanks for posting that graphic since it will simplify my reefing!!

boomless f25c reefing clutch.png

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On 10/8/2020 at 6:11 PM, WetnWild said:

i also like to be able to control mast rotation as it critical for efficiency on a wing mast and big head sail. Without a boom it’s set up on the cabin top and positive rather than restrictive. To windward I’m  looking to maximise flow and can power up with more or depower with less. Downwind max rotation to get the mast in the strong plane with the masthead kite. I don’t run backstays 

Granted our boats are wildly dissimilar; I only have one datum for mast rotation and it occurred due to a mistake in setting the rig up.  I neglected to remove the mast stabilizer fitting (part of the mast raising gear) that holds the mast from rotating.  On that sail, I had much more weather helm than normal for my boat.  It sorta makes sense since that would move the COE of the mainsail aft (as well as provide a lot of turbulence at the luff).  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Here’s some more F22 fun with video taken from a nice 38 foot Grainger Spoonbay Tri. The 22 is up to windward just after the start and later on with a double reef where wind was ranging in the 24 to 27 knot area. We stayed ahead in the windward conditions but couldn’t match them downwind where we couldn’t run our masthead kites and they could. 

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