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its been a while...

this came up at a race (i wasnt involved nor do I have a dog in the fight) 

last race of the series, will determine overall standings.

Handicap racing, light wind start. The RC displays S flag and sounds correct horn signals (2)   BUT he sets up on the opposite side of the mark where they shortened to.  Some boats simply crossed the finish line from the direction of the last mark and others rounded the mark and crossed the line in the direction of the next mark. ALL the boats got a horn.  1 boat protested that some boats finished improperly and went through the wrong way.

Rule 28.2 was cited. It states, "A string representing the boat's track from the time she begins to approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she finishes shall, when drawn taught, a) pass each mark on its required side, b) touch each rounding mark." It is not clear that this rule specifies a required side for the marks defining the finish line. 
 
Rule 32.2 was cited. It states that, if the RC signals a shortened course, the finish line can be "at a rounding mark, between the mark and a staff displaying flag S." No side is required by this rule.
 
here is the kicker: (THIS IS FROM THE PC's decision)
In the interest of promoting friendly competition, we agree that  all competitors are justified in their various interpretations of how to finish, whether from the direction of the previous mark or after rounding this turning mark of the course.  This Protest Committee directs that all finishes should be allowed to stand as recorded. Any boat that attempted to finish twice (once in each direction) should be scored at the time they first crossed the finish line. 
 
 
 
How say you armchair PC?
 
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Actually had exactly this situation on Lake St. Clair about 25 years ago.  We were in the Tartan 10 fleet, along with a large phrf fleet race at the 9 mile tower.  As boats finished downwind under spinnaker, no one was getting a gun.  I realized what was happening and told the owner, and we actually went back upwind through the line, spun around the end of the line and finished - and got the first gun in the fleet.  It cause a disaster as the boats near the line realized what was going on and were trying to go back upwind and through the line to 'unwind the string', and the downwind boats didn't have a clue what was going on and were still trying to just cross the line in what most people consider the 'normal' direction.  Many collisions and much foul langauge.  The protest went quite high up the chain.  Unfortunately I lost track of it at the time.  I always figured the rules had changed to address the issue.

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See the definition of "finish"

"A boat finishes when any part of her hull, or or equipment in normal position, crosses the finish line from the course side. However she has not finished if after crossing the finish line she

a- takes a penalty under R44.2,

b- corrects an error under R28.2 made at the line, or

c- continues to sail the course"

Seems to me that both ways can't be "from the course side." You certainly cannot start from either side of the line.

We had this same discussion just a few weeks ago. Lucky there were no collisions between boats finishing the two different ways. It's easy to put the finish boat on the correct side of the mark so that this doesn't happen.

FB- Doug

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The key to that definition of finishes“ from the course side“ Which would mean finishing coming from the last mark if a boat goes around the finish line and back through it it is not finishing from the corect side which would mean finishing coming from the last mark if a boat goes around the finish line and back through it it is not finishing from the core side....no?

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32.2

If the race committee signals a shortened course (displays flag S with two sounds), the finishing line shall be,

  1. (a)  at a rounding mark, between the mark and a staff displaying flag S;

  2. (b)  a line the course requires boats to cross; or

  3. (c)  at a gate, between the gate marks.

The shortened course shall be signalled before the first boat crosses the finishing line.

 

The rule on shortening courses doesn't say which direction to finish in -- only that you have to go between the mark and the staff displaying flag S.  One might assume that it should be in the direction from the last mark, but it could appear that you could cross in either direction based just on 32.2 .  

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4 minutes ago, PaulK said:

32.2

If the race committee signals a shortened course (displays flag S with two sounds), the finishing line shall be,

  1. (a)  at a rounding mark, between the mark and a staff displaying flag S;

  2. (b)  a line the course requires boats to cross; or

  3. (c)  at a gate, between the gate marks.

The shortened course shall be signalled before the first boat crosses the finishing line.

 

The rule on shortening courses doesn't say which direction to finish in -- only that you have to go between the mark and the staff displaying flag S.  One might assume that it should be in the direction from the last mark, but it could appear that you could cross in either direction based just on 32.2 .  

Yes exactly that rule was changed I believe in the last racing rules of sailing. The wording of rounding the mark on the correct side was removed. I had this discussion with Dave Perry and Butch Ulmer on two different occasions  And both of them said that there’s no string rule when a short course flag is up and boats have to finish between a mark and a Flagstaff on the race committee boat finishing from the course side. 
To me that seems very clear regardless of which side the race committee boat is on you finished between the line between the Mark and the race committee boat Coming from the previous mark. 

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It's clear that the rules say you need to finish from the course side and the shorten means you don't go around the mark first. With that said, I've seen a similar issue (where the RC had the best of intentions but created confusion) where the fleet was 50/50 on how they sailed the course. Some were right, some were wrong. All were steadfast that they should be scored. After some heated discussion, the suggestion was made that the PRO simply abandon the race. All came to their senses and agreed that was fair. 

The protest committee should play by the rules and the definition. In the spirit of friendly competition, maybe a different consensus could give this situation an "out." 

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Standard Shorten Course vs Changing Course issue.  

Question is who to reward?  Boats who finished properly.  Or boats who didn't. Or decide it's handicap racing so they should just deliver rewards through the fleet at random. 

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2 hours ago, PaulK said:
...    ...

The rule on shortening courses doesn't say which direction to finish in -- only that you have to go between the mark and the staff displaying flag S.  One might assume that it should be in the direction from the last mark, but it could appear that you could cross in either direction based just on 32.2 .  

Sure, but then again, if you only look at ONE rule in the absence of all others, a race would be very very different.

The definitions have the force of rule. A boat must satisfy the definition of "finish" in order to be scored as finished.

The definition just says "from the course side." When the course is shortened, the former rounding mark is now a finish mark. It no longer has a side to round it.

The smart Race Committee will reduce opportunities for confusion by keeping that mark on the same side for both rounding and finishing.

I posted this cartoon in the thread a couple weeks ago.... here it is again:

image.png.e560edd4c2189461d4bc630a7d8b2339.png

Arguably, it could be worse to anchor the finishing RC boat in line to the last mark, so there is truly no way to tell which side to take the last mark. But if you anchor so that finishers have to take the last mark on the opposite side they were expecting to, it's predictable that some will try to "button hook finish."

IMHO reducing confusion is also most likely to reduce hard feelings later.

FB- Doug

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55 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Sure, but then again, if you only look at ONE rule in the absence of all others, a race would be very very different.

The definitions have the force of rule. A boat must satisfy the definition of "finish" in order to be scored as finished.

The definition just says "from the course side." When the course is shortened, the former rounding mark is now a finish mark. It no longer has a side to round it.

The smart Race Committee will reduce opportunities for confusion by keeping that mark on the same side for both rounding and finishing.

I posted this cartoon in the thread a couple weeks ago.... here it is again:

image.png.e560edd4c2189461d4bc630a7d8b2339.png

Arguably, it could be worse to anchor the finishing RC boat in line to the last mark, so there is truly no way to tell which side to take the last mark. But if you anchor so that finishers have to take the last mark on the opposite side they were expecting to, it's predictable that some will try to "button hook finish."

IMHO reducing confusion is also most likely to reduce hard feelings later.

FB- Doug

Some will try that with those people who do that are breaking the rules and have not finished. While the other boats that sell between the committee boat and the Mark have finished. 
What gets me is in the write up of the protest committee‘s decision.  it’s up to the competitors interpretation so everyone is correct.... that’s a load of horseshit

I know that this decision is getting appealed to us sailing. 

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From the US Sailing Appeals Book:

Rule 32.2, Shortening or Abandoning after the Start
appeal 109—a race committee boat may be used as a starting line or finishing line mark at either
end of the line. When the course is shortened at a rounding mark, that mark becomes a finishing
mark, and is no longer a rounding mark. in the definition Finish, “from the course side” means
from the side of the line where the boats sail from the mark that begins the last leg of the course
to the finishing line.
Case 129—When the course is shortened at a rounding mark, the mark becomes a finishing
mark. Rule 32.2(a) permits the race committee to position the vessel displaying flag S at either
end of the finishing line. a boat must cross the line in accordance with the definition Finish,
even if in so doing she leaves that mark on the side opposite the side on which she would have
been required to leave it if the course had not been shortened.

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2 hours ago, trt131 said:

Its time the RRS were written that compels  the race committee to set up on the correct side.  The way it is at the moment confuses a lot sailors and race committees.

No.

Theres a clear rule and a clear Case 129.  Dont mess with it.

Just finsh between the damn mark an the S flag.

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I realise there is a case for the rule but most sailors don't know this rule and how it is used.  It also catches race committees out, even though they should know better.  I cannot see a reason that the shortening rule does not compel a race committee to place the boat on the same side as the rounding would have been.  I have seen a case where half the fleet finished correctly and half did a hook finish, however the race committee only took the times of those who did the hook finish. A total cluster fuck.

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In a similar vein, here is the latest amendment to our centreboard courses for tomorrow.

If you're doing a "T" course, which way do you cross the finish line??? :wacko::lol:

image.png.e8960febf2a86c71760fb32f6d56a75f.png

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4 hours ago, Jethrow said:

In a similar vein, here is the latest amendment to our centreboard courses for tomorrow.

If you're doing a "T" course, which way do you cross the finish line??? :wacko::lol:

image.png.e8960febf2a86c71760fb32f6d56a75f.png

I don't get  finish#2  aligned 'straight up' from 6P when they've clearly aligned finish #1 perpendicular to the prior mark. Is it for catamarans, and thy take the finish mark between the hulls?

This would be a question for the Skipper's Meetings (if your club i still having those)

FB- Doug

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14 hours ago, trt131 said:

.  I cannot see a reason that the shortening rule does not compel a race committee to place the boat on the same side as the rounding would have been. 

Fixed lines for one.  The rule is straightforward and logical. 

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For clubs with fixed lines add a sailing instruction to tell the sailors how to finish.  The rest of the sailing world use a rule that has the finishing vessel on the same side as the rounding.  It is stupid to have a rule that is often confused by both competitors and officials just to satisfy the very few races that use a fixed line.

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On 10/9/2020 at 7:54 AM, dacapo said:

 

In the interest of promoting friendly competition, we agree that  all competitors are justified in their various interpretations of how to finish, whether from the direction of the previous mark or after rounding this turning mark of the course.  This Protest Committee directs that all finishes should be allowed to stand as recorded. Any boat that attempted to finish twice (once in each direction) should be scored at the time they first crossed the finish line. 
 

 

I think your PC deserves a beer. Yes, that was a bit of a fuck up, but instead of having some douche exploit that now and again in the future, they did not give them the opportunity. 

Now, the only problem here is that it might set a precedent. In the future sailors might say, "oh well, this side is a little bit faster, I will finish here, even while the line is set on the other side." 

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2 hours ago, AnotherSailor said:

 

I think your PC deserves a beer. Yes, that was a bit of a fuck up, but instead of having some douche exploit that now and again in the future, they did not give them the opportunity. 

Now, the only problem here is that it might set a precedent. In the future sailors might say, "oh well, this side is a little bit faster, I will finish here, even while the line is set on the other side." 

the PC should have gotten a kick i the nutsack for their ruling and US Sailing will overturn me thinks based on the other two rulings. The PC should have tossed the race if they couldn’t get their act together. Pathetic    

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29 minutes ago, dacapo said:

the PC should have gotten a kick i the nutsack for their ruling and US Sailing will overturn me thinks based on the other two rulings. The PC should have tossed the race if they couldn’t get their act together. Pathetic    

I agree, the race committee stuffs up and then the protest committee try to protect them.  Sail to the rules and race committees need to know the rules also even if the rule is not a good one.

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8 hours ago, MikeR80 said:

People who protest or seek redress over club / beer can races are dorky losers, sorry.

Who said this was just a club beer can race ? 
fuck off 

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I think the PC got the right result but got there the wrong way by recognizing everyone's individual "truth" about how to finish and saying we'll ignore the language in the rules just this once to keep it friendly. 

The RC gave a finishing horn both to boats that finished correctly and those that did not. This was an error by the RC that kept boats that didn't finish from recognizing that and finishing correctly (it seems likely that the RC, when they saw boats finishing different ways, were not themselves sure which was correct and which was not so they just decided to give everyone a horn). 

Redress of awarding all boats their recorded finishing times seems like the most fair result for all boats. It's likely that the resulting scores would be similar if everyone had finished correctly. 

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11 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

So what do you think about the RC yelling at people going the wrong way, "Hey! Idiot! Over here!" or something to that effect?

I think the RC yelling "Hey you idiot! You moron! You fucking JERK!" is probably well justified in many cases, but they should not give verbal instructions to racers.

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

I think the PC got the right result but got there the wrong way by recognizing everyone's individual "truth" about how to finish and saying we'll ignore the language in the rules just this once to keep it friendly. 

The RC gave a finishing horn both to boats that finished correctly and those that did not. This was an error by the RC that kept boats that didn't finish from recognizing that and finishing correctly (it seems likely that the RC, when they saw boats finishing different ways, were not themselves sure which was correct and which was not so they just decided to give everyone a horn). 

Redress of awarding all boats their recorded finishing times seems like the most fair result for all boats. It's likely that the resulting scores would be similar if everyone had finished correctly. 

Agreed, to some extent... it's nice to be all nice 'n shit. You don't want to drive people away, after all.

OTOH if this was an event where people expect a level of competition above the lowest rung, then they should expect to either know & follow the rules, or learn the rules.

I don't have a problem with lowest-rung, nicey-nice sailing events. It's about 99% of what our club(s) here have done over the past years. I just don't want that to become the -high- rung of the ladder!

FB- Doug

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51 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

OTOH if this was an event where people expect a level of competition above the lowest rung, then they should expect to either know & follow the rules, or learn the rules.

I agree with that (and wonder if there was a certified judge on the PC) but in this instance the RC screwed up not only in their placement of the S boat (bad practice but not against the rules) but misled boats that had not finished by giving them a finishing signal. So I feel like those boats may deserve redress. 

Although on reflection, I'm not sure the RRS call for a finishing sound signal and I don't recall seeing it in sailing instructions. So maybe the signal is just a courtesy without meaning under RRS. 

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There is no such thing as a finishing signal, so another thing the race committee got wrong.  The only answer from the protest committee should have been to give a finish time/place to the boats that finished correctly and the other boats score DNF

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10 hours ago, dacapo said:

Who said this was just a club beer can race ? 
fuck off 

oh ok, im sure it was the Intergalactic Shitbox Champs and it was the "last race of the series, will determine overall standings."

Eat a bag of Dildos.

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1 hour ago, trt131 said:

There is no such thing as a finishing signal, so another thing the race committee got wrong.  The only answer from the protest committee should have been to give a finish time/place to the boats that finished correctly and the other boats score DNF

There's no requirement for a signal but nothing that prevents an RC from sounding one and I think it's commonly interpreted as indicating a boat has finished. If the RC had sounded a signal only for the boats they regarded as finishing correctly I'd agree with you but since they sounded it for boats they did not think finished I feel like that's misleading and unfair. 

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6 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

I think the PC got the right result but got there the wrong way by recognizing everyone's individual "truth" about how to finish and saying we'll ignore the language in the rules just this once to keep it friendly. 

You're kidding?

'individual "truth"'?  This is a protest committee, not a metaphysical debating society.

The job of a protest committee is to decide protests according to the rules, not make up some new rules of its own.

There is one rule, rule 28 and it's authoritatively interpreted by Case 129 Validly protested boats that did not sail the course should be disqualified.

6 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

The RC gave a finishing horn both to boats that finished correctly and those that did not. This was an error by the RC that kept boats that didn't finish from recognizing that and finishing correctly (it seems likely that the RC, when they saw boats finishing different ways, were not themselves sure which was correct and which was not so they just decided to give everyone a horn). 

If it was a local practice to sound a horn for each boat finishing, then the race committee might have misled some competitors.  Even so, it might well have been doubtful that boats, in the absence of the sound signal would have recognised and corrected their error.

4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Agreed, to some extent... it's nice to be all nice 'n shit. You don't want to drive people away, after all.

OTOH if this was an event where people expect a level of competition above the lowest rung, then they should expect to either know & follow the rules, or learn the rules.

I don't have a problem with lowest-rung, nicey-nice sailing events. It's about 99% of what our club(s) here have done over the past years. I just don't want that to become the -high- rung of the ladder!

Good fences make good neighbours.

The fairest thing is to apply the rules, particualrly once it comes to a protest committee.

That's as nice as it gets.

How would we think the boats that had their valid protest dismissed , knowing that an Appeal Committee would belt that decision out over left field are feeling?

6 hours ago, TJSoCal said:

Redress of awarding all boats their recorded finishing times seems like the most fair result for all boats. It's likely that the resulting scores would be similar if everyone had finished correctly. 

I don't think that's a fair outcome.

Some boats sailed the course in compliance with the rules.  They deserve to be placed ahead of boats that broke the rules.

If it was accepted that boats that did not comply with rule 28 were misled into doing so by an improper action of the race committee, they could be scored, in their finishiing sequence, in places behind the last boat that sailed the correct course.

 

 

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5 hours ago, MikeR80 said:

oh ok, im sure it was the Intergalactic Shitbox Champs and it was the "last race of the series, will determine overall standings."

Eat a bag of Dildos.

Ha, I was going to write something similar!

WTF does the OP ask for our thoughts and then tells some of us to shut the fuck up. Asking for a friend, I guess... If you ask for advice that does not always mean you get the answer you want!

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5 hours ago, MikeR80 said:
16 hours ago, dacapo said:

Who said this was just a club beer can race ? 
fuck off 

oh ok, im sure it was the Intergalactic Shitbox Champs and it was the "last race of the series, will determine overall standings."

Eat a bag of Dildos.

Mike maye haffe to slappe sombodey, an when I saye slappe, I meane slappe. Plesae behaive evereybodey.........                 :)

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4 hours ago, Brass said:

You're kidding?

'individual "truth"'?  This is a protest committee, not a metaphysical debating society.

You misread me, I think. I completely agree that the reason given for awarding all boats finishing places in order to "promote friendly completion" was ridiculous, and "my truth" was tongue in cheek. 

But I felt that it was possible to grant redress based on confusing, inconsistent and possibly erroneous action by the RC. 

Also, in the OP it says that "one boat protested that some boats finished improperly." Did the protestor inform the protestees? Did they identify all of the offenders? Did the RC maintain a record of who crossed the finish line in which direction? 

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Damn irony font not working again.

Didn't think it was your usual form.

Problem of incomplete records, and had crossed my mind, together with possibility of not all offending boats being protested.

My view remains that the protest committee absolutely must disqualify all validly protested boats that did not sail the course.

Failure to do that, if appealed would be sure to be overturned.

Having done that, any redress contemplated should place boats given redress after boats that sailed the course properly.

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On 10/9/2020 at 10:54 AM, dacapo said:

its been a while...

this came up at a race (i wasnt involved nor do I have a dog in the fight) 

last race of the series, will determine overall standings.

Handicap racing, light wind start. The RC displays S flag and sounds correct horn signals (2)   BUT he sets up on the opposite side of the mark where they shortened to.  Some boats simply crossed the finish line from the direction of the last mark and others rounded the mark and crossed the line in the direction of the next mark. ALL the boats got a horn.  1 boat protested that some boats finished improperly and went through the wrong way.

Rule 28.2 was cited. It states, "A string representing the boat's track from the time she begins to approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she finishes shall, when drawn taught, a) pass each mark on its required side, b) touch each rounding mark." It is not clear that this rule specifies a required side for the marks defining the finish line. 
 
Rule 32.2 was cited. It states that, if the RC signals a shortened course, the finish line can be "at a rounding mark, between the mark and a staff displaying flag S." No side is required by this rule.
 
here is the kicker: (THIS IS FROM THE PC's decision)
In the interest of promoting friendly competition, we agree that  all competitors are justified in their various interpretations of how to finish, whether from the direction of the previous mark or after rounding this turning mark of the course.  This Protest Committee directs that all finishes should be allowed to stand as recorded. Any boat that attempted to finish twice (once in each direction) should be scored at the time they first crossed the finish line. 
 
 
 
How say you armchair PC?
 

Most of Stamford YC races are fucked up like this

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On 10/11/2020 at 6:30 AM, dacapo said:

Who said this was just a club beer can race ? 
fuck off 

There can't be anything other than beer can, hilbilly  racing on the Hudson

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1 hour ago, jesposito said:

There can't be anything other than beer can, hilbilly  racing on the Hudson

Skippers have to show a full set of teeth before they’re allowed to enter a regatta B)

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17 hours ago, Brass said:

My view remains that the protest committee absolutely must disqualify all validly protested boats that did not sail the course.

You may be right, but unless the RC has records of who finished which direction I can see this leading to a really ugly cascading protest hearing. As in:

  • Boat A validly protests B, C and D for not sailing the course correctly. PC decides on preponderance of evidence that they did not and disqualifies them. But B, C and D testify that E, F and G also didn't finish properly, so;
  • Close the hearing, make E, F and G parties and start over. E, F and G identify H, I and J who finished the same direction they did so;
  • Close that hearing, add H, I and J as parties, start over....;
  • And so on....

Doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do, but yeesh...RC would owe PC a year of beers for causing this stuff-up.

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it seems to me that if you are shortening the course at a mark, RC should (though it doesnt sound like they are required) set up the finish line along the normal route of the course. So, if the weather mark is normally left to stbd by the competetors, then the RC finish boat should set the finish line between the mark and the finish boat to the right of the weather mark. 

 

seems obvious but ive seen worse RC fuck-ups.

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2 hours ago, dacapo said:
4 hours ago, jesposito said:

There can't be anything other than beer can, hilbilly  racing on the Hudson

Skippers have to show a full set of teeth before they’re allowed to enter a regatta B)

Thast ussualltey notte that harde............

GettyImages-72539935_1503083394916_64463:)

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2 hours ago, Mark Set said:

it seems to me that if you are shortening the course at a mark, RC should (though it doesnt sound like they are required) set up the finish line along the normal route of the course. So, if the weather mark is normally left to stbd by the competetors, then the RC finish boat should set the finish line between the mark and the finish boat to the right of the weather mark. 

 

seems obvious but ive seen worse RC fuck-ups.

It's certainly a best practice (see SF's excellent cartoon in post #11) but for better or worse not required by the rules.

Unfortunately this RC's first error was to choose "Very Bad !!" for their position.

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2 minutes ago, trt131 said:

That was not an error of the RC.  The rules allow them to do it.

Yes, you're correct, it wasn't an "improper action" in the context of RRS 62.1(a) which is generally understood as the RC, PC, OA or TC doing something the rules don't allow them to do (as contrasted with an "omission" where the body fails to do something the rules require them to do).

I guess I meant "error" in a more informal sense - it was allowed but they still shouldn't have done that.

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2 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Like I said earlier in this thread the RRS should be written so it compels a RC to put the finish line on the obvious side.

That seems like an obviously good thing to do - I'd be interested in hearing the argument against, I can't think of one off the top of my head.

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48 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Like I said earlier in this thread the RRS should be written so it compels a RC to put the finish line on the obvious side.

Why? THe way the rules are now, a truly disgruntled racer can have it thrown out.

That's all he could do if there were a specific rule stating exactly what you want.

IMHO the rules are fairly short and simple, adding more is not the way to improve them.

- DSK

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There are I think a number of issues with such a rule.

If the RC does stuff up and put the boat on the wrong side what happens. Is the race abandoned? I'm not sure I can immediately think of an alternative. There are folk here who seem awfully keen to abandon races at the drop of a hat, but in reality it's a desperate last resort. There is also a Web pundit tendency to think only in terms of w/l courses in open water and not consider what might happen out in the real world at some of the more complex venues. 

I've already mentioned fixed lines. Do we want extra complication in writing SIs? What about multiple races and deep water anchor gear where shifting the CB is a significant exercise. Or fouled anchor and shortage of time? 

'there's no such thing as a hook finish'  or 'you cross a finish line, you don't round a finish mark' are not really hard concepts to get across. Is it really worth building in extra complication in the rules for sailors who haven't read the rule book? Especially as they won't read the extra complicated rules either? 

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1 hour ago, Snaggletooth said:

Easte Baye draweng allotte of Expo rath.                          :)

Nah, don't really give a crap about the hacks down there. 

Their super Big Tom Series didn't end up with anymore qualifiers than in the past.

They had more entries only because they lowered the entry fee to $150, so more cheap bastards signed up

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