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I'll be surprised if things open up before mid-2021, and that assumes a Biden win in November and a vaccine in Q1. If Trump wins, my money's on late 2021 because even with a vaccine you still need tes

As case numbers are surging throughout Europe again, countries try to avoid a full lockdown. Instead, local or national travel restrictions pop up all over the continent in a not very coordinated mann

Not even close. Charter boats in the MED? what are you trying to do? infect the Greek islands? There is talk of a Bubble Club between Europe and other countries that have responsibly managed

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5 hours ago, Tharsheblows said:

It seems like Europe is likely to open back up pretty soon.  Does anyone have any specific info yet?

My Bestie is flying from Cyprus to Kos this morning V Athens.

She and her husband are both Vaccinated and had a mandatory rapid test yesterday.

Kalymnos (the island next to Kos) went into full lockdown a week age.

You pay your money and take your chances. (oh, and get vaccinated and rapid tested.)

As the number of infection rates among the bloc saw a decrease in April and then in May, the EU started working towards the reopening of the borders and the removal of border controls.

While the EU Commission will decide on June 15 whether the closure of the external Schengen Area borders should end or be extended, for third-country nationals, it is up to the Member States to open their borders.

Most of these countries reopened/announced they would be opening their borders for travellers from the Schengen Area, and the non-Schengen EU states, often only to those with lower rates of infections. While some have imposed quarantine or negative COVID-19 test results, there are others that have permitted entry into their territory without any restrictions.

Following, find the complete list of opened countries for travellers, and dates of warned opening, in reverse chronological order.

https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/timeline-of-eu-member-states-reopening-their-borders/

 

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On 11/30/2020 at 11:56 AM, Ncik said:

It is interesting reading back over these threads...

Covid in Portugal went a bit nuclear after you left...

https://www.google.com/search?q=portugal+covid&rlz=1C1GIVA_en-GBAU913AU916&oq=portugal+covid&aqs=chrome..69i57.2735j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

image.png.79e30f57cca5d222402ccc2e49694724.png

That conspicuous bump in April/May in the old graph is nothing in the latest graphs. 

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On 10/15/2020 at 9:43 AM, Tharsheblows said:

My guess is that we are likely nearing the end of this craziness.

How's the guess holding up now? This is a self-assessment task.

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On 5/11/2021 at 7:06 AM, Tharsheblows said:

It seems like Europe is likely to open back up pretty soon.  Does anyone have any specific info yet?

Europe?

You'll need to get specific, some places will take you, others will be cautious.

On 5/11/2021 at 12:30 PM, Shortforbob said:

Kalymnos (the island next to Kos) went into full lockdown a week age.

Even neighbour islands are being affected, and handling things, differently.

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1 hour ago, Ncik said:

Europe?

You'll need to get specific, some places will take you, others will be cautious.

Even neighbour islands are being affected, and handling things, differently.

I think the Greek government prioritised islands with small populations for vaccination. 

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This will continue unless near-zero illnesses (let alone hospitalizations,deaths) instead of zero cases becomes the objective.  

And they need a better vaccine than AZ.  I wonder if part of it isn't covering up budgetary and vaccine choices and they are waiting to be able to afford a better vaccine in a couple of years after the rest of us have "tested" it. They also seem baffled by the notion of  boosters and periodic vaccinations. 

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Oh, we are improving, ever so slowly ...

Covid_Europe_12_May_2021.thumb.png.1afa06e6cbb759b3c80dd1f224dbdb1d.png

But for semi-adventurous tourists like West Coast or tharheblows going on a spreading spree in good old Europe might already a little dull. Why don't you try India? Much closer to the real action and a few poor souls over there might actually be dying for some of your dollars.

 

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4 hours ago, Grog said:

Oh, we are improving, ever so slowly ...

Covid_Europe_12_May_2021.thumb.png.1afa06e6cbb759b3c80dd1f224dbdb1d.png

But for semi-adventurous tourists like West Coast or tharheblows going on a spreading spree in good old Europe might already a little dull. Why don't you try India? Much closer to the real action and a few poor souls over there might actually be dying for some of your dollars.

 

You seem to have missed the part where West Coast tested negative before crossing borders.  

But you are welcome to stay in your basement for another 5 years if that makes you happy.  As for me, I will be off to Greece pretty soon as it is opening very shortly.  I will likely have to test negative before I go and before I come back but you will likely still accuse me of spreading COVID back and forth.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/greece-reopen-museums-next-week-ahead-tourism-2021-05-07/

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10 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

This will continue unless near-zero illnesses (let alone hospitalizations,deaths) instead of zero cases becomes the objective.

Last death was last month an arrival from PNG so more medivac

Has been near zero illness for ages with states regularly achieving zero community cases one month or more and hospitalisations nationwide less than half a dozen.

With those at risk now vaccinated that is bordering on "Elimination" already by WHO definition. So wait for more than a year for what?

10 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

And they need a better vaccine than AZ.  I wonder if part of it isn't covering up budgetary and vaccine choices and they are waiting to be able to afford a better vaccine in a couple of years after the rest of us have "tested" it.

Had MRNA to start with, then locally made AZ came on line, but it now recommended ONLY 50yo and older. Plenty of MRNA but trouble is not in quantity until starting in a few months time. Talk of building a MRNA facility as AZ only one.

10 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

They also seem baffled by the notion of  boosters and periodic vaccinations. 

Nah far from it. Supply problem as above.

High Vax country historically, annual flu jabs tailor made each year so take up not a problem.

The baffling bit is walking away from high volume quarantine model and putting all eggs in Vax basket, when Vax isn't a barrier and when things like this happen.

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Possibilities abound.

1) they weren't really vaccinated had fake CDC cards sold online 

2 ) they got vaccinated but were not fully vaccinated because too soon after last shot

3) they got a variant the vaccine is less protective for. 

4) 95% isn't 100%. Nothing is 100% including quarantine, apparently. Were they sick? If not, vaccine worked. 

 

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2 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Possibilities abound.

1) they weren't really vaccinated had fake CDC cards sold online 

2 ) they got vaccinated but were not fully vaccinated because too soon after last shot

3) they got a variant the vaccine is less protective for. 

4) 95% isn't 100%. Nothing is 100% including quarantine, apparently. Were they sick? If not, vaccine worked. 

 

It is also possible that while they were fully vaccinated they were recently heavily exposed.  Vaccines help you fight the virus but certainly do not provide absolute protection. 

This is not strong evidence of vaccine failure, we know that the vaccines provide good protection (in the short term at least).

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20 hours ago, Tharsheblows said:

You seem to have missed the part where West Coast tested negative before crossing borders.  

But you are welcome to stay in your basement for another 5 years if that makes you happy.  As for me, I will be off to Greece pretty soon as it is opening very shortly.  I will likely have to test negative before I go and before I come back but you will likely still accuse me of spreading COVID back and forth.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/greece-reopen-museums-next-week-ahead-tourism-2021-05-07/

 

Are you being deliberately thick? Or is that ignorance a natural thing?

Reread you own fucking thread and do check your questions vs the answers on a timeline of shit that actually did hit the fan! Quite a bit more violent than anticipated, too.

You were asking for travel advice when the second wave in Europe was building up to what turned out to be at least five fold the first impact in the spring of 2020, including travel restrictions, lock downs, closed borders and closed hotels. Here's a timeline to help you with connecting posts to happenings:

Rolling-7-days-Germany-from-2020.jpg.5d0d1554d9980bb237999f7210ca3ba5.jpg

That WC guy claimed to have travelled parts of the EU, always just ahead of states, counties, travel and tourism being locked down. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Somehow I have doubts on a loudmouthed big wave surfer escaping a rolling pandemic in Jason Bourne style, again and again. If I could be bothered I'd probably call bullshit on him.

Anyway: If this is your idea of a holiday, go ahead and book your flights, hotels and boat! Enjoy your trip and be safe (As in: don't infect anyone and don't be a burden to still stretched out health systems)!

Then again, why didn't you already? Some months ago? Maybe because you are full of shit and your only goal in "travelling" is to stir shit up on a fucking internet forum? Pray tell!

 

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3 hours ago, Grog said:

 

Are you being deliberately thick? Or is that ignorance a natural thing?

Reread you own fucking thread and do check your questions vs the answers on a timeline of shit that actually did hit the fan! Quite a bit more violent than anticipated, too.

You were asking for travel advice when the second wave in Europe was building up to what turned out to be at least five fold the first impact in the spring of 2020, including travel restrictions, lock downs, closed borders and closed hotels. Here's a timeline to help you with connecting posts to happenings:

Rolling-7-days-Germany-from-2020.jpg.5d0d1554d9980bb237999f7210ca3ba5.jpg

That WC guy claimed to have traveled parts of the EU, always just ahead of states, counties, travel and tourism being locked down. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Somehow I have doubts on a loudmouthed big wave surfer escaping a rolling pandemic in Jason Bourne style, again and again. If I could be bothered I'd probably call bullshit on him.

Anyway: If this is your idea of a holiday, go ahead and book your flights, hotels and boat! Enjoy your trip and be safe (As in: don't infect anyone and don't be a burden to still stretched out health systems)!

Then again, why didn't you already? Some months ago? Maybe because you are full of shit and your only goal in "travelling" is to stir shit up on a fucking internet forum? Pray tell!

 

I understand that it blows your mind (and all the other basement dwellers) that some people were/are not terrified to travel, but many people feel differently about the pandemic and thats not likely to change.

Greece is opening very soon even though the maps are still scary looking.  You probably think that is irresponsible...but many many people disagree with you which is why its opening.  Croatia and Turkey have been open for months...because many people disagree with you.

I didn't travel already because I don't have the time to be prepared to quarantine if I was required to so and that was a real possibility back then.  It becoming but less likely now.

I was never afraid of the virus mostly because I caught it very early and recovered and I assume that I likely gained some level of immunity for some period of time (which is a very science -based, reasonable assumption) and even if I were to catch it again it would likely just suck (like it did the last time) but I would probably just recover again eventually and be fine.  This is the experience of the vast majority of everyone under 65 or so who caught the virus so its also a reasonable, science-based assumption.  Sure, there is no guarantee that that would be my experience but there are rarely guarantees in life. 

WC did not "escape a rolling pandemic in Jason Bourne style"  he simply followed the rules wherever he went including taking multiple tests and was prepared to quarantine if he was required to do so.  He also kept himself informed as to the changing rues and planned accordingly.

It may surprise you that many people traveled through that time.  Here is a guy who travelled to Turkey in September 2020.  Somehow he is still alive.

 

And i'm sure you will blather on about the irresponsibility of traveling but with the COVID testing before and after flights, vaccines now, and natural immunity, many people think that travel is reasonably safe.  I think they are right.  I'm sure you disagree, but the good news is that if you disagree then you can stay home.

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Well, if it's safe for me to hang around a Cheesecake Factory unmasked, how bad can a plane be? Except the toilet plume, can't unhear that. Double masking forv that and tossing the outside one each trip to drain champagne. 

Vax up or mask up. Personal responsibility, right? Feel kinda bad for the losers on Astra Zenica but I expect they will have more mask rules than we will. 

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24 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

A better precaution by airlines would be check-in monitoring of body temperature and identification of symptomatic individuals.  

Oh TSA will keep us masked. Best hope airlines were not lying about improved air filtering. Toilet plume ya know. 

Body temp is theater. Asymptomatic have normal and spread like crazy. And who is going to say yeah I feel a bit poorly best not board. 

Once on the ground in the US

Your fear of vaccination is not my problem.

Your fear of needles is not my problem. 

Your country's failure to invest in r&d to develop great vaccines and choice of a crap one is not my problem. Best not to come.

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On 5/13/2021 at 10:28 AM, NeedAClew said:

Possibilities abound.

1) they weren't really vaccinated had fake CDC cards sold online 

2 ) they got vaccinated but were not fully vaccinated because too soon after last shot

3) they got a variant the vaccine is less protective for. 

4) 95% isn't 100%. Nothing is 100% including quarantine, apparently. Were they sick? If not, vaccine worked. 

 

 

On 5/13/2021 at 10:34 AM, Tharsheblows said:

It is also possible that while they were fully vaccinated they were recently heavily exposed.  Vaccines help you fight the virus but certainly do not provide absolute protection. 

This is not strong evidence of vaccine failure, we know that the vaccines provide good protection (in the short term at least).

From State weekly data. 

Between April 10 and May 1, six people in quarantine fully vaccinated were among the 150 overseas cases recorded. There were also 2 earlier in April but exposed within 14 days of 2nd shot. Since March 1, 12 returned travellers have tested positive after receiving one shot of a two-dose vaccine. 

Of the 6 one had received a one-shot vaccine, such as Johnson & Johnson, and the remaining cases had received both doses of a two-shot vaccine, such as Pfizer, AstraZeneca or Moderna.

Australia doesn't have Vax entry requirement so why fake and 6 fake?

Australia has 72 hour before exit country negative test entry requirement, but a lot can happen in between test, transit and test at day 0 or 1 in quarantine. Aircraft close quarters, long haul flights and ventilation (aerosol risk) make for higher than normal infection risk hazard.

Vax type for the 6 discounts higher variant risk.

NO vaccine is 100% effective, so expected that some people who had been vaccinated would test positive although they would most likely be asymptomatic, but still capable of transmitting, but at lower rate.   

My only point is Vaccine Passports have risk attached to them and should NOT replace quarantine for any country with a low cases/death threshold such as Australia with NEGATIVE excess deaths, which currently is their approach beyond the period the country being <80% vaccinated by mid next year.

 

FT Excess Deaths.jpg

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Vaccines aren't 100 percent people vary in their immune responses, too.  Australians best not ever GO anywhere, ever, even vaccinated with whatever cheap vax they use. A couple of percent could get sick overseas. 

 

Then they are stuck there for weeks. Stay home in the hermit kingdom where it's perfectly safe and nobody dies of diseases.

 

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4 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

From State weekly data. 

Between April 10 and May 1, six people in quarantine fully vaccinated were among the 150 overseas cases recorded. There were also 2 earlier in April but exposed within 14 days of 2nd shot. Since March 1, 12 returned travellers have tested positive after receiving one shot of a two-dose vaccine. 

Of the 6 one had received a one-shot vaccine, such as Johnson & Johnson, and the remaining cases had received both doses of a two-shot vaccine, such as Pfizer, AstraZeneca or Moderna.

Australia doesn't have Vax entry requirement so why fake and 6 fake?

Australia has 72 hour before exit country negative test entry requirement, but a lot can happen in between test, transit and test at day 0 or 1 in quarantine. Aircraft close quarters, long haul flights and ventilation (aerosol risk) make for higher than normal infection risk hazard.

Vax type for the 6 discounts higher variant risk.

NO vaccine is 100% effective, so expected that some people who had been vaccinated would test positive although they would most likely be asymptomatic, but still capable of transmitting, but at lower rate.   

My only point is Vaccine Passports have risk attached to them and should NOT replace quarantine for any country with a low cases/death threshold such as Australia with NEGATIVE excess deaths, which currently is their approach beyond the period the country being <80% vaccinated by mid next year.

 

FT Excess Deaths.jpg

The “ vaccine passport “ must be used in conjunction with preflight testing  and on arrival testing 

its important for national health authorities to establish this vaccine passport system 

corona is going to be around for a long time

Australia , or any country,  can’t hide out,  ignore the rest of  world and pretend to be safe 

 

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2 hours ago, slug zitski said:
6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

My only point is Vaccine Passports have risk attached to them and should NOT replace quarantine for any country with a low cases/death threshold such as Australia with NEGATIVE excess deaths, which currently is their approach beyond the period the country being <80% vaccinated by mid next year.

 

FT Excess Deaths.jpg

Expand  

The “ vaccine passport “ must be used in conjunction with preflight testing  and on arrival testing 

its important for national health authorities to establish this vaccine passport system 

corona is going to be around for a long time

Australia , or any country,  can’t hide out,  ignore the rest of  world and pretend to be safe

It will be interesting to watch how the future unfolds regarding the movement of people.

If you take as some say it will be 6 years before the world is 70% vaccinated, then countries are going to have FOUR choices outside do nothing.

For say the 1st 3 years

1. Rely solely on Vax Passport. 

2. Vax Passport PLUS exit testing. Those with reciprocal 'travel bubbles' or 'green zones' now will add #1 or this if not already a condition of entry.

3. Vax Passport PLUS exit testing PLUS arrival testing from high risk countries & Home Quarantine for ALL arrivals.

4. Vax passport, PLUS exit country testing PLUS State Quarantine of the 1% that arrive infected and Home Quarantine for the 99% that test negative upon arrival. Don't expect many in this tier and will probably migrate to #3 or even #2 after a short while.

Note: State Quarantine ALL arrivals is too expensive and has too smaller traffic flows. Using Australia as example they are targetting mid next year for it end. BUT that is election driven, not driven by Health advice. 

If you look at the above excess mortality chart the lower you go, the more stringent will be entry requirements.The investment has been made, why blow it.

Those currently with negative excess deaths ALL employ Quarantine pre vaccination, are not conditioned to high mortality and are already advanced in varying degrees with vaccine to achieve elimination (not eradication and cases will still occur. The only caveat is those with robust contact/trace/test programs can afford to take more risk. With the exception of NSW, Australia doesn't have that luxury.

Those further up the chart conditioned to higher mortality may be inclined to take more risk. 

The more risk the potential for higher traffic flows.

My guess is the majority of countries other than those with low or negative excess deaths will chose #2 and add #3 for travellers from higher risk countries.

For say the next 3 years or to end of year 6

What was adopted for the 1st 3 years will be adjusted according to outcomes, some may become less stringent, some become more stringent. The level of cases and any associated mortality and if elimination, within national borders is a priority or not, will drive decision makers.

I would be very surprised if ANY retain the most stringent tier #4 for any period of time. It is simply to costly and a brake on the economy.

As a guide today on who will do what and most obvious travel opportunities?

- The EU27 plus EEA countries that other than some selected periods haven't closed their borders to fellow members. Free movement is a pillar and economically are very interdependent.

- Countries with large services export sectors such as international tourism and education, reliance on skilled migrants etc will be also be less risk averse.

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3 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Didn't need a Vax passport after the Spanish Flu.

So you say that when testing and mass vaccine not available 100 years ago (started post WWII 25 years later in the US a place not occupied or under constant attack and robust economy)...

....and downvote that post.

Says a lot about you.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

It will be interesting to watch how the future unfolds regarding the movement of people.

If you take as some say it will be 6 years before the world is 70% vaccinated, then countries are going to have FOUR choices outside do nothing.

For say the 1st 3 years

1. Rely solely on Vax Passport. 

2. Vax Passport PLUS exit testing. Those with reciprocal 'travel bubbles' or 'green zones' now will add #1 or this if not already a condition of entry.

3. Vax Passport PLUS exit testing PLUS arrival testing from high risk countries & Home Quarantine for ALL arrivals.

4. Vax passport, PLUS exit country testing PLUS State Quarantine of the 1% that arrive infected and Home Quarantine for the 99% that test negative upon arrival. Don't expect many in this tier and will probably migrate to #3 or even #2 after a short while.

Note: State Quarantine ALL arrivals is too expensive and has too smaller traffic flows. Using Australia as example they are targetting mid next year for it end. BUT that is election driven, not driven by Health advice. 

If you look at the above excess mortality chart the lower you go, the more stringent will be entry requirements.The investment has been made, why blow it.

Those currently with negative excess deaths ALL employ Quarantine pre vaccination, are not conditioned to high mortality and are already advanced in varying degrees with vaccine to achieve elimination (not eradication and cases will still occur. The only caveat is those with robust contact/trace/test programs can afford to take more risk. With the exception of NSW, Australia doesn't have that luxury.

Those further up the chart conditioned to higher mortality may be inclined to take more risk. 

The more risk the potential for higher traffic flows.

My guess is the majority of countries other than those with low or negative excess deaths will chose #2 and add #3 for travellers from higher risk countries.

For say the next 3 years or to end of year 6

What was adopted for the 1st 3 years will be adjusted according to outcomes, some may become less stringent, some become more stringent. The level of cases and any associated mortality and if elimination, within national borders is a priority or not, will drive decision makers.

I would be very surprised if ANY retain the most stringent tier #4 for any period of time. It is simply to costly and a brake on the economy.

As a guide today on who will do what and most obvious travel opportunities?

- The EU27 plus EEA countries that other than some selected periods haven't closed their borders to fellow members. Free movement is a pillar and economically are very interdependent.

- Countries with large services export sectors such as international tourism and education, reliance on skilled migrants etc will be also be less risk averse.

 

the best response  is to require vaccine passports , then monitor the virus situation .  

 

Countries wishing to promote travel would be wise to establish a logical and easy to use corona testing system 

 

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2 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Didn't need a Vax passport after the Spanish Flu.

Well seeing as almost no one had a passport until after WW1 I'm not surprised.:rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

Countries wishing to promote travel would be wise to establish a logical and easy to use corona testing system

Well if they haven't got that sorted by now into year 2 good luck

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

.....Those further up the chart conditioned to higher mortality may be inclined to take more risk ................

As a guide today on who will do what and most obvious travel opportunities?

- The EU27 plus EEA countries that other than some selected periods haven't closed their borders to fellow members. Free movement is a pillar and economically are very interdependent...........

That might not age too well, remembering EU HQ in Brussels/Belgium sitting in upper EU mortality rate

But according to the Times, the EU is reportedly going to recommend a ban on travel into the bloc from countries which are not part of it, including the UK, which formally left the EU at end of 2020.

But at least nailed it with Portugal...what other summer holiday Med countries like Spain, Italy & Sth France think of this like Belgium in upper EU mortality numbers? 

3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

- Countries with large services export sectors such as international tourism and education, reliance on skilled migrants etc will be also be less risk averse

 

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:
3 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Didn't need a Vax passport after the Spanish Flu.

Well seeing as almost no one had a passport until after WW1 I'm not surprised

Meli you might have to rethink that & even with photos.

I will credit you with this to save your arse which cooks him.

3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

.....mass vaccine not available 100 years ago (started post WWII 25 years later......

I'm thinking KSFB's train of thought is in whatever travels behind the caboose 

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I've lost count of how many international boarders I've crossed since Jan 2020.  It's probably around 35 now.
Flew to a new one yesterday: Peru.
Zero issues, again.
 

How to do it:
You read the local rules, get an anti-gun (or PCR) test before getting on the plane, and enjoy.
On the plane, you watch some movies (they fed us full meals yesterday, which was cool), and in a few hours, you're in a new country.


I'm genuinely surprised how many people keep thinking it's more complicated than this?

My parents (close to their 70s) flew down and visited me and my fiancé in Mexico City last month.
I've had a bunch of US friends do the same around the world.
I visited the US last month for 5 days, then flew back down south.


Read the rules, get a negative test before flying.
It's *really* not more complicated than that for most of the world. 

We avoid the countries that still have borders closed, and spend our money in countries that are happy to have us.

*shrug*  I don't get why this is still a discussion?

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If you are vaccinated you need a specific antigen test to show the absence of covid. Because you have antibodies. I am in a serology surveillance trial and they run 2 kinds on my samples. 

If the vaccine passport show vaccination with a vaccine that means you are very very unlikely to transmit virus is exposed, bag the tests for them. Care about cases of sick people, not people with it but not transmitting it. Sounds a big step but really....how many of us would test positive for  MRSA if they swabbed our noses? We aren't transmitting flesh eating bacteria to people at home. (Tested pos for it in 2017, special protocol for my surgery. Mr Clew did not test positive in 2018. ) 

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4 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

If you are vaccinated you need a specific antigen test to show the absence of covid. Because you have antibodies. I am in a serology surveillance trial and they run 2 kinds on my samples. 

If the vaccine passport show vaccination with a vaccine that means you are very very unlikely to transmit virus is exposed, bag the tests for them. Care about cases of sick people, not people with it but not transmitting it. Sounds a big step but really....how many of us would test positive for  MRSA if they swabbed our noses? We aren't transmitting flesh eating bacteria to people at home. (Tested pos for it in 2017, special protocol for my surgery. Mr Clew did not test positive in 2018. ) 

 

DB5E79CD-F28C-4B95-9DF5-B28ADBFFCEAA.jpeg

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20 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

So the PCR test isn't reliable?

Not what I said.  If your blood is just screened for "antibodies" vaccinated people have antibodies and test positive on,, for example EuroImmun. They need to run Roche to see if the antibodies are or are not a response to Covid-19.  They do this for my blood once a month since I am in  screening trial.

Some fast screening tests cannot differentiate and if you are vaccinated that matters to your smooth travels. 

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21 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Not what I said.  If your blood is just screened for "antibodies" vaccinated people have antibodies and test positive on,, for example EuroImmun. They need to run Roche to see if the antibodies are or are not a response to Covid-19.  They do this for my blood once a month since I am in  screening trial.

Some fast screening tests cannot differentiate and if you are vaccinated that matters to your smooth travels. 

What's your point?  If you test negative to a PCR test are you not negative?  

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37 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

What's your point?  If you test negative to a PCR test are you not negative?  

What's your point?

Not every traveler airport screening test is a PCR brain swab. If you have a fast antibody test in some places when you are vaccinated, some places you then have to go stand in line to get a second test. Aloha?

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9 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Not every traveler airport screening test is a PCR brain swab. If you have a fast antibody test in some places when you are vaccinated, some places you then have to go stand in line to get a second test.

Some places where?

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

Rumour has it that Europe has opened up to non EU , vaccinated travelers,  starting  may 21 

double check 

No Brits in Portugal now on the piss. Others no idea.

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11 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

No Brits in Portugal now on the piss. Others no idea.

Got a txt message from a mate in Spain . He said the new Covid travel rules were posted in todays local newspaper 

expect the airports to be very busy 

taxi stands a kilometer long 

 

 

 

 

FA5A9E7C-0FF2-483A-B9BA-437099C1B2FC.png

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Yes, Europe will be fully open this summer.

Expect it to be bonanza.
Will be so good for all the people who suffered needlessly with a year of arbitrary lockdowns.

Hope everyone goes and spends a lot of money on travel this year.
The working class, blue collar folks, will appreciate your support.

 

 

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I don't plan to go until after all the blue collar working class Americans have taken their trips. Who wants to stand in line with them at the Louvre or worse, at the airport?

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

I don't plan to go until after all the blue collar working class Americans have taken their trips. Who wants to stand in line with them at the Louvre or worse, at the airport?

You miss the point.  You getting out of your hibernation which was facilitated by the working class and spending some of your money will help those workers in "non-essential" industries.  They won't be standing in queues to travel but they'll be facilitating your travel.

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3 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

I don't plan to go until after all the blue collar working class Americans have taken their trips. Who wants to stand in line with them at the Louvre or worse, at the airport?

Exactement.

Praise be for private jets. 

And private museums.

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Visited Machu Picchu yesterday.  Wildly empty.
 

That said, most of the local shops in this tiny town are closed.
The locals continue to suffer with a 90% drop in tourists.

IMG_2137.thumb.JPG.ba644eee2c25900a16fd2608d4af3127.JPG

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On 5/21/2021 at 3:26 AM, Kate short for Bob said:

You miss the point.  You getting out of your hibernation which was facilitated by the working class and spending some of your money will help those workers in "non-essential" industries.  They won't be standing in queues to travel but they'll be facilitating your travel.

Yes within bounds of safety and a post that can't be ignored.

However Kate you prefer they all travel around the globe unvaccinated to accelerate the spread of your herd immunity religion that also keeps mortality counters employed.

Maybe they should have anti-vaxer only planes where they take out the oxygen masks, go to 35,000 feet and crack a window open for 3 minutes for a Covid ICU simulation.

That would accelerate the vax rollout.

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10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Yes within bounds of safety and a post that can't be ignored.

However Kate you prefer they all travel around the globe unvaccinated to accelerate the spread of your herd immunity religion that also keeps mortality counters employed.

Maybe they should have anti-vaxer only planes where they take out the oxygen masks, go to 35,000 feet and crack a window open for 3 minutes for a Covid ICU simulation.

That would accelerate the vax rollout.

Rapid , uncontrolled , reopening will cause problems 

I see that unvaccinated UK travelers can arrive in Spain with no testing 

Trouble 

better to reopen slowly 

 

 make it difficult for mass tourism by requiring paperwork , tests and money 

FEE088B4-2CA1-42B3-98D2-950189CE7BF6.jpeg

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2 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Rapid , uncontrolled , reopening will cause problems 

I see that unvaccinated UK travelers can arrive in Spain with no testing 

Trouble 

better to reopen slowly 

 

 make it difficult for mass tourism by requiring paperwork , tests and money 

FEE088B4-2CA1-42B3-98D2-950189CE7BF6.jpeg

The Med tourism dependents are risking Covid Spikes V Economic Pain

Brits big is problem is return with or without quarantine cost/time being test dependent.

Cost of all tests is 3 X cost of EasyJet fare to Portugal.

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20 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

The Med tourism dependents are risking Covid Spikes V Economic Pain

Brits big is problem is return with or without quarantine cost/time being test dependent.

Cost of all tests is 3 X cost of EasyJet fare to Portugal.

Unfortunate 

those incoming hordes of lager louts and  Scandi hooligans will fuel  the critical  Guiri   mass needed to reignite southern  Covid 

locales are already worried 

 

5BABFCE5-FE52-4E9B-A660-EB81B94284DD.jpeg

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That's why we're not going to Europe even though we "can." 

It's not fear of us getting covid, it's the thought of mingling with people who invite the un vax or meh vax to come out of desperation and the ones who go out of greed for a bargain getaway.

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3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Unfortunate 

those incoming hordes of lager louts and  Scandi hooligans will fuel  the critical  Guiri   mass needed to reignite southern  Covid 

locales are already worried 

With the exception of Sweden (the herd immunity experiment gone wrong), the other Nordic 3 any country would welcome, providing they want to leave.

This new cases chart is a couple weeks old, but for relativity is still valid.

You can see why the UK Govt is politically keen (health pros not so keen) to reward its citizens with travel after a year of 3 lockdowns, the last the longest and they have, PLUS they have also embraced the vaccine rollout by lining up to get jabbed.

The UK the Nordic 3 and Portugal are a good fit. Spain followed by Italy are next in line.

Beyond those countries the UK should be more concerned about returning citizens from countries with relatively more new cases and having a lower vaccination penetration than the UK.

The problem for politician's is public perception.

The public are more Covid educated now to understand that Covid doesn't recognise borders. So they ask the question of their Govt, why is it OK to travel between England & Wales BUT not England & Portugal?

Pretty hard answer for any administration to give.

If they are concerned about returning travelers, because are still not Covid ready (ie. their Contact/Trace capacity is very limited), HOWEVER they can't publicaly admit to that Covid response failure.

There will be lots of head scratching going on for many Governments over Summer border control.

image.thumb.png.02acd3907882f1c4e8e9eb68dd8fe931.png

 

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8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

With the exception of Sweden (the herd immunity experiment gone wrong), the other Nordic 3 any country would welcome, providing they want to leave.

This new cases chart is a couple weeks old, but for relativity is still valid.

You can see why the UK Govt is politically are keen to reward its citizens with travel after a year of 3 lockdowns, the last the longest and they have PLUS they have also embraced the vaccine rollout by lining up to get jabbed.

The UK the Nordic 3 and Portugal are a good fit. Spain followed by Italy are next in line.

Beyond those countries the UK should be more concerned about returning citizens from countries with relatively more new cases and having a lower vaccination penetration than the UK.

The problem for politician's is public perception.

The public are more Covid educated now to understand that Covid doesn't recognise borders. So they ask the question of their Govt, why is it OK to travel between England & Wales BUT not England & Portugal?

Pretty hard answer for any administration to give.

If they are concerned about returning travelers, because are still not Covid ready (ie. their Contact/Trace capacity is very limited), HOWEVER they can't publicaly admit to that Covid response failure.

There will be lots of head scratching going on for many Governments over Summer border control.

image.thumb.png.02acd3907882f1c4e8e9eb68dd8fe931.png

 

Incoming  Covid carriers are only one part of the problem

increased tourism means increased labor force participation and interaction  among locals 

corona in person to person spread 

the country im presently in went ballistic and locked  down  one month ago after opening for pre tested tourists

they theorize that locals spread the corona 

 

best to go slow 

 

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I am not going anywhere that relies on tests for incoming people. Means their vax percentage is low and or they have bad vax data. I don't think I'll get it there, but no desire to waste mental energy on their safety theatre. Get the f vaxxed. Spend money on that. 

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31 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

I am not going anywhere that relies on tests for incoming people. Means their vax percentage is low and or they have bad vax data. I don't think I'll get it there, but no desire to waste mental energy on their safety theatre. Get the f vaxxed. Spend money on that. 

So is there anywhere is Europe that is open to ONLY vaccinated tourists.  
 

I keep watching articles that say various countries are now “open to vaccinated tourists” (implying that they are closed to unvaccinated tourists) but when I check the actually rules they seem to be open to: 1) vaccinated tourists; 2) tourists that who have confirmation of recent recovery; and 3) tourists that can show a negative on a COVID test (before or after or both).

 

So given your requirement as stated above, is there anywhere that you would go now?

 

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45 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

I am not going anywhere that relies on tests for incoming people. Means their vax percentage is low and or they have bad vax data. I don't think I'll get it there, but no desire to waste mental energy on their safety theatre. Get the f vaxxed. Spend money on that. 

But you have been vaccinated have you not?  So aren't you immune?  Why does it matter who is vaccinated, not vaccinated or Covid-19 Recovered?

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Posted (edited)

Not going to places that test vaccinated people. Means they have low vax rate or don't trust it. 

It's practical concern: if I test positive, I am stuck canceling even though am very unlikely to transmit it. Don't want stress and expense. It's more serene to trust my vax and perhaps my own mask as a security blanket to protect me against whatever rubes I run into here.

Am traveling in US, not Hawaii. 

Basically, I am very first world privilege. 

A year ago, testing positive I expected to die.

Now the only time I would be tested is potential travel. If I test positive going, I have to cancel. Stressful to worry about. If I test positive returning, stuck in some hellhole quarantine hotel. Not my idea of a holiday.

If they stop testing vaccinated people or determine vaxed can't transmit then those worries are gone. I do not expect to get sick.

 

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14 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

It's practical concern: if I test positive, I am stuck canceling even though am very unlikely to transmit it.

That is a Government rule.  Perhaps they should answer honestly the questions I asked you.  If you are vaccinated and test positive then the only people that should be worried are those that haven't Covid recovered or been vaccinated.

So when will the testing of vaccinated people stop?  Isn't THAT the constraint?  Actually aren't all the constraints Government regulations as opposed to the virus.

Or should the testing change to what it should have been from the start.  The testing of symptomatic people and testing for shedding and viral load.

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51 minutes ago, NeedAClew said:

Not going to places that test vaccinated people. Means they have low vax rate or don't trust it. 

It's practical concern: if I test positive, I am stuck canceling even though am very unlikely to transmit it. Don't want stress and expense. It's more serene to trust my vax and perhaps my own mask as a security blanket to protect me against whatever rubes I run into here.

Am traveling in US, not Hawaii. 

Basically, I am very first world privilege. 

A year ago, testing positive I expected to die.

Now the only time I would be tested is potential travel. If I test positive going, I have to cancel. Stressful to worry about. If I test positive returning, stuck in some hellhole quarantine hotel. Not my idea of a holiday.

If they stop testing vaccinated people or determine vaxed can't transmit then those worries are gone. I do not expect to get sick.

 

I can understand that perspective.  The hassle of being unintentionally stuck is partially why I didn't already travel to Croatia or Turkey even though they have been open to Americans for a awhile.

I thought you were saying that you would only go places that ONLY allowed vaccinated tourists.  I'm not sure there are any such places as of now.  Most places either don't allow tourists or allow tourist with one of a list of precautions that include vaccination. (I could easily be wrong and this is changing daily)

Another reason to support your current view is that the testing is not 100% accurate.  While rare, false positives are certainly possible and I highly doubt anyone would even entertain the argument that the positive result is possible false.

 

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41 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

That is a Government rule.  Perhaps they should answer honestly the questions I asked you.  If you are vaccinated and test positive then the only people that should be worried are those that haven't Covid recovered or been vaccinated.

So when will the testing of vaccinated people stop?  Isn't THAT the constraint?  Actually aren't all the constraints Government regulations as opposed to the virus.

Or should the testing change to what it should have been from the start.  The testing of symptomatic people and testing for shedding and viral loa

Only 15 percent of Spaniards are fully vaccinated

young people , the major  service economy participants ,  are not vaccinated

spreading  tourist euros   around during your one week fun in the sun holiday sounds good  ... unfortunately  when you fly  back home the pile of dead bodies you leave behind  will stink 

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1 minute ago, slug zitski said:

Only 15 percent of Spaniards are fully vaccinated

young people , the major  service economy participants ,  are not vaccinated

spreading  tourist euros   around during your one week fun in the sun holiday sounds good  ... unfortunately  when you fly  back home the pile of dead bodies you leave behind  will stink 

Why would that happen?  Is Spain not vaccinating the vulnerable first?

 

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41 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

That is a Government rule.  Perhaps they should answer honestly the questions I asked you.  If you are vaccinated and test positive then the only people that should be worried are those that haven't Covid recovered or been vaccinated.

So when will the testing of vaccinated people stop?  Isn't THAT the constraint?  Actually aren't all the constraints Government regulations as opposed to the virus.

Or should the testing change to what it should have been from the start.  The testing of symptomatic people and testing for shedding and viral load.

I doubt the testing of vaccinated people will stop anytime soon.  Not because vaccinated people are a serious risk now but because nobody really knows who is vaccinate and who is not. 

Much like the new rule of not having to wear a mask in a grocery story if you are vaccinated.  Nobody knows who is not wearing a mask because they are vaccinated and who just doesn't want to wear a mask.

Any attempt to automate vaccination confirmation internationally, like a vaccine passport, will likely feel strong push-back and a variety legal hurdles.

And in a about two years we will run into the problem of whether or not the vaccinated people still have any immunity.

 

Regarding the idea of testing only symptomatic people, that seems like a pretty reasonable policy if the goal is just to "reduce" the number of infected traveling, but one of the key attributes of COVID is the prevalence of an asymptomatic contagious stage so such a policy would be very open to legitimate criticism.

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25 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

Only 15 percent of Spaniards are fully vaccinated

young people , the major  service economy participants ,  are not vaccinated

spreading  tourist euros   around during your one week fun in the sun holiday sounds good  ... unfortunately  when you fly  back home the pile of dead bodies you leave behind  will stink 

Yes, but if a lack of vaccinated local people are going to create a "pile of dead bodies" if tourists visit then it would happen anyway because 15% is far below any herd immunity calculation.

Unless of course there is a larger group of local people who are now naturally immune (which is almost certainly true).  That and the fact that that COVID hardly threatens the lives of young people (maybe their grandparents but not them) makes your "dead bodies in the streets" prediction a little hyperbolic.  

Also, one would hope that that the 15% of vaccinated people in Spain include many of the most vulnerable people.

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6 minutes ago, Tharsheblows said:

And in a about two years we will run into the problem of whether or not the vaccinated people still have any immunity.

Yes that will be a key question for those that have been vaccinated but most likely not for those that are Covid Recovered going on the SARS-COV-1 research.

7 minutes ago, Tharsheblows said:

Regarding the idea of testing only symptomatic people, that seems like a pretty reasonable policy if the goal is just to "reduce" the number of infected traveling, but one of the key attributes of COVID is the prevalence of an asymptomatic contagious stage so such a policy would be very open to legitimate criticism.

But even the CDC are not sure about asymptomatic infection.  The amount of caution and alarm over asymptomatic transmission is exaggerated when looking at the science of how much infection was caused by asymptomatic people.

If we go down that path regarding preventing or restricting the movement of asymptomatic infected people why stop at Covid-19?  Why not test for every virus known to man?  If we did that no one would go out the door let alone leave town or the country.

For example 90% of the population has the Epstein-Barr virus.  In 2017 nearly one million people died from disease related to this virus.  The common name for this virus is Glandular Fever.

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16 minutes ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Yes that will be a key question for those that have been vaccinated but most likely not for those that are Covid Recovered going on the SARS-COV-1 research.

But even the CDC are not sure about asymptomatic infection.  The amount of caution and alarm over asymptomatic transmission is exaggerated when looking at the science of how much infection was caused by asymptomatic people.

If we go down that path regarding preventing or restricting the movement of asymptomatic infected people why stop at Covid-19?  Why not test for every virus known to man?  If we did that no one would go out the door let alone leave town or the country.

For example 90% of the population has the Epstein-Barr virus.  In 2017 nearly one million people died from disease related to this virus.  The common name for this virus is Glandular Fever.

Yes, I think we have all had a lesson on how quickly and easily the government can take away your freedoms in the name of safety (intentionally exaggerated or not) and how many people will go along with it or even advocate for more freedoms to be removed.

I believe that we will ultimately determine that the government reaction to COVID has killed and/or harmed as many people as COVID ever did.

If we were to start again from the beginning, it seems an "isolate your elderly and health compromised" policy would have been far more effective while letting the healthy 20-45 year olds who run the majority of our economy to carry on.

Moving forward, I think that we will likely test everyone traveling for a while because of concerns regarding who is vaccinated or how long vaccines last or who has taken the vaccine booster, but ultimately COVID related deaths will go way down as those who know they are vulnerable will likely take appropriate precautions and the issue will just become moot...or less important that the many other communicable diseases that we don't discuss either.

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5 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Incoming  Covid carriers are only one part of the problem

increased tourism means increased labor force participation and interaction  among locals 

Nailed it.

Overarching protection tailored & scaled to Covid preparedness & community acceptance of mortality etc 

Incoming Cases from OS - Testing. +VE go to Quarantine.

Community Cases - Contact/Test/Trace.

Vaccine the icing on the above cake and part of elimination going forward

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2 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Not going to places that test vaccinated people. Means they have low vax rate or don't trust it. 

A countrys Covid preparedness and response related to incoming testing is a  coincidence only.

 I see the US are flooding dating sites with Vax adverts. No vaccine = Not getting laid.

Many exit country testing -VE entry requirement pre-dates vaccine. Why stop it?

See my post preceding this. Vax is NOT a barrier. Quarantine IS.

You always ignore this so have a Vax  narrative I can't work out.

 

E1EAvccVEAU_jGV (1).jpeg

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3 hours ago, Tharsheblows said:
4 hours ago, NeedAClew said:

Not going to places that test vaccinated people. Means they have low vax rate or don't trust it. a holiday.

If they stop testing vaccinated people or determine vaxed can't transmit then those worries are gone. I do not expect to get sick.

 

Another reason to support your current view is that the testing is not 100% accurate.  While rare, false positives are certainly possible and I highly doubt anyone would even entertain the argument that the positive result is possible false.

I have answered Clew and pointed out that vaxed get Covid (and also transmit, albeit a lower rate offset by being in a plane a petri dish) so his argument is dead in the water.

That said if a proportion of overseas acquired can be dealt with then not necessary. You can't carve out a country's Covid preparedness from this discussion, many seem to do. 

Blows true there is % of false test results both ways but that % is low (you say rare) so it doesn't substantiate an argument to not test.

Blow there is something about your posts that doesn't smell right.

 

_______________________________________

3 hours ago, Tharsheblows said:

I doubt the testing of vaccinated people will stop anytime soon.  Not because vaccinated people are a serious risk now but because nobody really knows who is vaccinate and who is not. 

 

No vaccine record??

You shoot down your own argument there BUT there is a ANOTHER agenda happening here.

_________________________________________________________

 

3 hours ago, Tharsheblows said:

Any attempt to automate vaccination confirmation internationally, like a vaccine passport, will likely feel strong push-back and a variety legal hurdles.

Push back on vaccine passport..legal hurdles??

Google 'The International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis', (also known as the Carte Jaune or Yellow Card), OR just Google 'WHO Vaccine Yellow Card' and this pops up. Pre dates WWII.

That is how Cholera, Yellow Fever, Typhus Fever and Smallpox have come to be eliminated or reduced to low levels globally.

Passport is NOT to eliminate in countries of outbreak where normal suppression methods occur (with or with out vaccine depending on disease, country pop & $ capacity), but stop it spreading from out of there to outside world. Anti vaxers DON'T get this aspect.

I still have mine somewhere and expect it will transfer to digital record just like my face recognition passport ( put that in on purpose :D )identifying last booster if needed going anywhere nasty (it is all about return to home or exit country).

What are you on about???

You already have to show a 'yellow fever passport' — why not one for  COVID-19?

_________________________________________________________________________

3 hours ago, Tharsheblows said:
3 hours ago, slug zitski said:

Only 15 percent of Spaniards are fully vaccinated 

Yes, but if a lack of vaccinated local people are going to create a "pile of dead bodies" if tourists visit then it would happen anyway because 15% is far below any herd immunity calculation.

 

Ogh I can see where this is going.....rely on natural immunity NOT vaccine AKA a supporter of the failed Swedish experiment AND NOT curbing peoples freedoms.

______________________________________________________________ 

3 hours ago, Tharsheblows said:

And in a about two years we will run into the problem of whether or not the vaccinated people still have any immunity.

 

2 hours ago, Tharsheblows said:

Yes, I think we have all had a lesson on how quickly and easily the government can take away your freedoms in the name of safety (intentionally exaggerated or not) and how many people will go along with it or even advocate for more freedoms to be removed.

I believe that we will ultimately determine that the government reaction to COVID has killed and/or harmed as many people as COVID ever did.

 

BINGO

@Tharsheblows you are a  anti-Vaxer & Covid Denier just like @Kate short for Bobbut so much sneakier. By stealth cruising around the threads and chipping away piecemeal on SA unlike KateShitForBrains who can't hide it with his sledgehammer posts.

Blow you are good.......it took me a while to cotton on.

 

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9 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

That is how Cholera, Yellow Fever, Typhus Fever and Smallpox have come to be eliminated or reduced to low levels globally.

Geez you talk shit.  Cholera is caused by a bacteria and spreads via contaminated water.  Boiling water and cooking food kills it.

Yellow Fever and Typhus have mosquitoes as vectors.  Considerable effort went into eliminating these vectors.  Outbreaks were contained by intense vaccination efforts by location.  The while world want vaccinated!

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I hate this system where you get notifications from the Covid deniers on ignore. 

Let me guess KSFB says he is not a denier only a sceptic, not a anti-vaxer only cautious or deliberately misquoted me using omission his favourite bullshit reply tool.

and say I'm a liar if I ever reply (to give him another boot to his head with a yes or no question which makes him nod or shake is head, which is only just hanging on by one heavily clogged artery). 

 

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8 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

I hate this system where you get notifications from the Covid deniers on ignore. 

Let me guess KSFB says he is not a denier only a sceptic, not a anti-vaxer only cautious or deliberately misquoted me using omission his favourite bullshit reply tool.

and say I'm a liar if I ever reply (to give him another boot to his head with a yes or no question which makes him nod or shake is head, which is only just hanging on by one heavily clogged artery). 

 

Brilliant Jacko.  A new record on the switch from Ignore to Not Ignore.  2 hours and 52 minutes!  

What's even better is you are pretending you didn't read it!  Pure gold!

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On 5/21/2021 at 8:10 PM, WestCoast said:

The locals continue to suffer with a 90% drop in tourists.

And extremely high, maybe the highest, per capita excess deaths in the world from Covid.

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I have answered Clew and pointed out that vaxed get Covid (and also transmit, albeit a lower rate offset by being in a plane a petri dish) so his argument is dead in the water.

That said if a proportion of overseas acquired can be dealt with then not necessary. You can't carve out a country's Covid preparedness from this discussion, many seem to do. 

Blows true there is % of false test results both ways but that % is low (you say rare) so it doesn't substantiate an argument to not test.

Blow there is something about your posts that doesn't smell right.

 

_______________________________________

 

No vaccine record??

You shoot down your own argument there BUT there is a ANOTHER agenda happening here.

_________________________________________________________

 

Push back on vaccine passport..legal hurdles??

Google 'The International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis', (also known as the Carte Jaune or Yellow Card), OR just Google 'WHO Vaccine Yellow Card' and this pops up. Pre dates WWII.

That is how Cholera, Yellow Fever, Typhus Fever and Smallpox have come to be eliminated or reduced to low levels globally.

Passport is NOT to eliminate in countries of outbreak where normal suppression methods occur (with or with out vaccine depending on disease, country pop & $ capacity), but stop it spreading from out of there to outside world. Anti vaxers DON'T get this aspect.

I still have mine somewhere and expect it will transfer to digital record just like my face recognition passport ( put that in on purpose :D )identifying last booster if needed going anywhere nasty (it is all about return to home or exit country).

What are you on about???

You already have to show a 'yellow fever passport' — why not one for  COVID-19?

_________________________________________________________________________

 

Ogh I can see where this is going.....rely on natural immunity NOT vaccine AKA a supporter of the failed Swedish experiment AND NOT curbing peoples freedoms.

______________________________________________________________ 

 

 

BINGO

@Tharsheblows you are a  anti-Vaxer & Covid Denier just like @Kate short for Bobbut so much sneakier. By stealth cruising around the threads and chipping away piecemeal on SA unlike KateShitForBrains who can't hide it with his sledgehammer posts.

Blow you are good.......it took me a while to cotton on.

 

I'm not an anti-vaxxer, I just hold a much more nuanced opinion than the "the world will not be the same until everyone in the world is vaccinated" camp.  (which means that, yes, I agree with much of what Kate says).

 

Let me reply to some of what you addressed.

1) Clews argument, as I understand it,  is that he is vaccinated and does not want to go through the hassle of being tested when he travels for vacation at least partially because of the off chance that he is a victim of a false positive or even real a positive but one that is not likely lead to transmission because he is vaccinated and his body would likely soon overcome the virus before it reproduced to highly contagious density, and he doesn't want to be stuck somewhere quarantining. 

That's a legit position.  While rare, both false positives and vaccinated positives are possible and happen and the risk of them happening adds to the stress to travel (sometimes disproportionate to the actual risk).  Travel for vacations are supposed to be about stress relief.  Clews has done his part by getting vaccinated and prefers to go places that allow vaccinated people to bypass the testing line.  So his argument is not "dead in the water," its perfectly reasonable...you just disagree with it and that's OK too.

 

2) Re the yellow card, yes, I have one myself, but that hardly solves the problem of actually verifying the truth of whether or not someone is vaccinated.  My yellow card states various vaccines that I have received followed by some scribbles of doctor signatures, none of which could be verified quickly or easily.  The point of vaccine passports would be to allow customs agents to quickly access information that is a little bit more verifiable and difficult to fake.

Many people are trying to build such systems but I believe that implementing such systems will prove very difficult for many reasons, some of which are unrelated to science or their efficacy such as getting multiple independent countries to agree on anything.

3) And no, I'm not arguing anyone "rely of natural immunity only."  The vaccines are effective and reasonably safe and are playing a major role in reducing the death count.  But denying that there is likely a large numbers of people with natural immunity is its own form a science denial.

4) It absolutely true that many health issues such as diagnosed cancer and various stress related illnesses have likely skyrocketed, and this is directly related to how the various governments handled the pandemic.  Several years later, level headed people will sort through the data and will very likely be able to compile a list of thing we could have done better.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Ncik said:
On 5/21/2021 at 8:10 PM, WestCoast said:

The locals continue to suffer with a 90% drop in tourists.

And extremely high, maybe the highest, per capita excess deaths in the world from Covid.

Peru not maybe the highest per capita......moon bound. Sth America should have been the wests vaccine supply priority, but vaccine nationalism took over.  

This chart with the best Covid 'responses' so "maybe the best' Covid Ready going forward. Say 'maybe the best' Covid Ready because examples such as down the bottom Australia with negative excess mortality is NOT Covid Ready going forward, UNLIKE its nth neighbours in SEA and NZ.

Also some of the best ones are quite remarkable in relative terms. Go find Germany.

Germany dense population of 80m+ with devolved states calling the shots making centralised decision making hard (lockdowns a bit late etc), but did have a strong leader and ex scientist so embraced Contact/Trace hard and early and likewise vaccine once EU settled down after its 50% manufactured export, with 1.4m shots one day I recall

 

1674196729_FTExcessDeaths.thumb.jpg.27a5cfedf8589c120113dca00f3564ba.jpg

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18 minutes ago, Tharsheblows said:

I'm not an anti-vaxxer, I just hold a much more nuanced opinion than the "the world will not be the same until everyone in the world is vaccinated" camp.  (which means that, yes, I agree with much of what Kate says)

Yet Kate is an anti vaxer??? How can you say you are not yet support his narrative???

You don't answer my assertion about you promoting natural immunity, not via vaccine.

I should stop there but I won't. 

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19 minutes ago, Tharsheblows said:

1) Clews argument, as I understand it,  is that he is vaccinated and does not want to go through the hassle of being tested when he travels for vacation at least partially because of the off chance that he is a victim of a false positive or even real a positive but one that is not likely lead to transmission because he is vaccinated and his body would likely soon overcome the virus before it reproduced to highly contagious density, and he doesn't want to be stuck somewhere quarantining. 

That's a legit position.  While rare, both false positives and vaccinated positives are possible and happen and the risk of them happening adds to the stress to travel (sometimes disproportionate to the actual risk).  Travel for vacations are supposed to be about stress relief.  Clews has done his part by getting vaccinated and prefers to go places that allow vaccinated people to bypass the testing line. 

Its not legit thinking vaccinated people do not get covid or can't transmit. Straight out wrong. 

So not dead in the water is dead in the water. "So his argument is not "dead in the water," its perfectly reasonable...you just disagree with it and that's OK too."

To disagree completely you have to remove all outs. I produced an out that both he and you not only make no mention of, but you sliced it out. A country being Covid ready so can accept new cases incoming traveller acquired. 

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

so his argument is dead in the water.

That said if a proportion of overseas acquired can be dealt with then not necessary. You can't carve out a country's Covid preparedness from this discussion, many seem to do. 

That omission approach during discourse really pisses me off. 

53 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Let me guess KSFB ..deliberately misquoted me using omission his favourite bullshit reply tool.

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32 minutes ago, Tharsheblows said:

2) Re the yellow card, yes, I have one myself, but that hardly solves the problem of actually verifying the truth of whether or not someone is vaccinated.  My yellow card states various vaccines that I have received followed by some scribbles of doctor signatures, none of which could be verified quickly or easily.  The point of vaccine passports would be to allow customs agents to quickly access information that is a little bit more verifiable and difficult to fake.

Many people are trying to build such systems but I believe that implementing such systems will prove very difficult for many reasons, some of which are unrelated to science or their efficacy such as getting multiple independent countries to agree on anything.

Bollucks.

That is anti government intervention, Govt control individual rights narrative etc.

That is fine but say it, don't invent stuff about vax passporting that has been around for 90 years and works. 

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36 minutes ago, Tharsheblows said:

3) And no, I'm not arguing anyone "rely of natural immunity only."  The vaccines are effective and reasonable safe and are playing a major role in reducing the death count.  But denying that there is likely a large numbers of people with natural immunity is its own form a science denial

At least you piss me off with the best bit at the end.

Quote where I said anything like this?

"But denying that there is likely a large numbers of people with natural immunity is its own form a science denial."

Bet you can't.

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39 minutes ago, Tharsheblows said:

4) It absolutely true that many health issues such as diagnosed cancer and various stress related illnesses have likely skyrocketed, and this is related to how the various governments handles the pandemic.  Several years later, level headed people will sort through the data and have a list of this we could have done better.

Even better you dispute again something i haven't disputed.

See that Excess Mortality chart I have just posted and more time I can remember. See words in that post. Supports what you have said there before you said it.

Kate disputes that and every excess deaths material I post as being excessive or not suiting his favourite Sweden, where he actually fabricates excess deaths data that is half that shown on that chart.

Yet you support much of what Kate says.

Think I covered off on that Mr Obfuscation

2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

@Tharsheblows you are a  anti-Vaxer & Covid Denier just like @Kate short for Bobbut so much sneakier. By stealth cruising around the threads and chipping away piecemeal on SA unlike KateShitForBrains who can't hide it with his sledgehammer posts.

Blow you are good.......it took me a while to cotton on

 

 

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