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Hi everyone,

I was wondering if there were any faster boats than a Seacart 30 out there that are small enough to use human power to go at least three knots. They have to be under 10,000 lbs. and you need to be able to race for 8 days continuously.  Of course the ORMAs are out of the picture, they are just way too big. 

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I think you should be wary of comparing data like for like between monos and multihulls from different years. Saying monos have won almost half of the R2AKs has to do with who is signed up. The line u

All this talk about the best boat or best crew for the R2AK and I don’t see any mention of fully crewed monohulls. I find this interesting when, in fact, fully crewed monos have won the race two out o

Team Shunt Up and Drive?

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1 hour ago, CWK said:

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if there were any faster boats than a Seacart 30 out there that are small enough to use human power to go at least three knots. They have to be under 10,000 lbs. and you need to be able to race for 8 days continuously.  Of course the ORMAs are out of the picture, they are just way too big. 

Seacart 30 would be my choice.

I have an F28R that I race long distance.  In medium to high winds its a great boat... but I suffer badly in light winds carrying crew and provisions for 3 or more days.

I would be looking for something light that has the ability to carry 3 crew and provisions.

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9 hours ago, can-UK said:

Seacart 30 would be my choice.

I have an F28R that I race long distance.  In medium to high winds its a great boat... but I suffer badly in light winds carrying crew and provisions for 3 or more days.

I would be looking for something light that has the ability to carry 3 crew and provisions.

We have an F-82R which is also great in high winds, especially when double-handed, but is considerably slower when we add a third person and provisions.

And the offshore route requires you need to bring even more safety equipment, like a life raft, which is yet another 80lbs of dead weight, so you definitely need load carrying capacity.

Given that I would seriously consider going double-handed with autopilot to save a few hundred pounds.

How is the Seacart in light air with a load?

10 hours ago, multihuler said:

Jim Antrim,  40x34, 6500 lbs, 60ft mast7493611-1.jpg.452fba28fad1bdcbe7a11318bafe3eeb.jpg

This is one of my favourite boats and is well-tested offshore. My only concern is that the underwater surfaces are quite flat for planing, so I wonder if it would be sticky in light air?

10 hours ago, multihuler said:

40x27, 3500 lbs Malcomb Tennant, 50ft mast, 1000sq ft upwind, currently entered offshore, shooting for 5 days69429791_10158232971190559_2879979776188088320_n.jpg.e4c2aee71b730d2ee64538c118d57c0b.jpg

This is also a cool boat which strikes me as being a solid light-air design, but how well has it been tested offshore?

In any case, anything built to the Formula 40 or Multi 50 rules might strike an interesting balance between size, load-carrying capacity, and performance.

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11 hours ago, multihuler said:

40x27, 3500 lbs Malcomb Tennant, 50ft mast, 1000sq ft upwind, currently entered offshore, shooting for 5 days69429791_10158232971190559_2879979776188088320_n.jpg.e4c2aee71b730d2ee64538c118d57c0b.jpg100_1487.thumb.jpg.bfa2efbf8bc4960218e8010c13ffbb2a.jpg20200417_183236.thumb.jpg.31b619bc28c1579bba5316a21d28797a.jpg

Those bows look very unique, what advantages do they usually provide over an ax bow or a wave piercing?

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46 minutes ago, CWK said:

Those bows look very unique, what advantages do they usually provide over an ax bow or a wave piercing?

I think it's more of a design era thing but a practical advantage in the PNW would be they are more tolerant of crap in the water - logs, kelp etc.

I have a 12 meter keelboat with a sloped bow and keel and it can drive through kelp beds that stop plumb bows and keels dead.

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11 hours ago, gspot said:

And the offshore route requires you need to bring even more safety equipment, like a life raft, which is yet another 80lbs of dead weight, so you definitely need load carrying capacity

No liferaft requirements for the outside. I’m not sure there is more safety gear needed if you went on the outside than what you would want to carry for the inside route anyway so I’m not sure extra safety gear weight for the outside route is that much of a factor if at all. 

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11 hours ago, 40Plus said:

No liferaft requirements for the outside. I’m not sure there is more safety gear needed if you went on the outside than what you would want to carry for the inside route anyway so I’m not sure extra safety gear weight for the outside route is that much of a factor if at all. 

Cool - they've changed it...again...

For the outside route they started with requiring US Sailing Offshore Requirements "Ocean" category, which requires a life raft and AIS.

Then they changed it to World Sailing Offshore Requirements Category 1, which requires a life raft, AIS, AIS crew overboard beacons for each crew member, and a sat phone.

Now they appear to have a custom set of safety requirements in which this stuff is recommended but not required.

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Perhaps they realized that going on the outside is MUCH more of a consideration of boat selection rather than safety equipment (both of which might be interlinked anyway)...

ie. A Hobie 16 will be much faster on the inside as it will just get slowed down by the big ocean waves on the outside... and a far more sensible option for most sane people! - quick note, most who do the R2AK are not most sane people

@CWK (op), here is some starting criteria for your boat selection for this race (I just went through the same exercise, I'll hopefully be doing it in 2022);

1) How physically fit are you?
2) What is your threshold for punishment?
3) What is your budget?

This is what makes the R2AK so special, there can be a million winning combinations based on the sailor itself. Perhaps a crazy man on a Moth sleeping 1 hour per day will win one day covering the entire distance in 2 days. Or Larry Ellison will finally join and destroy everyone on a multimillion dollar foiling machine.

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On 10/15/2020 at 6:14 AM, CWK said:

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if there were any faster boats than a Seacart 30 out there that are small enough to use human power to go at least three knots. They have to be under 10,000 lbs. and you need to be able to race for 8 days continuously.  Of course the ORMAs are out of the picture, they are just way too big. 

dammn - that was my plan!!... shipping Buzz (seacart 30) by container.  we are doing the British and Scottish 3 peaks in 2021 , they are very similar in sailing / navigation ; light winds, lots of tide gates and much human power, and also the Fastnet (signing off the endurance/stupidity criteria) . Plan for 2022 is ship to Caribbean for the 600 and few other races... then either back home or to Vancouver

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6 hours ago, SSolo said:

dammn - that was my plan!!... shipping Buzz (seacart 30) by container.  we are doing the British and Scottish 3 peaks in 2021 , they are very similar in sailing / navigation ; light winds, lots of tide gates and much human power, and also the Fastnet (signing off the endurance/stupidity criteria) . Plan for 2022 is ship to Caribbean for the 600 and few other races... then either back home or to Vancouver

Wow,  what a great opportunity with a incredible boat,  you live the bucket list!

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I've actually been lucky enough to sail a Seacart.  Apex predator for sure.  Absolutely amazing.  Kinda big to human power but they've done it on F31s, right?  Or you could just buy my L7.  Not as fast but trailerable, similar interior space and lots of bang for buck.  Of course if you can buy the Seacart, you'd give yourself a reasonable shot at being first to finish.  

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8 hours ago, SSolo said:

dammn - that was my plan!!... shipping Buzz (seacart 30) by container.  we are doing the British and Scottish 3 peaks in 2021 , they are very similar in sailing / navigation ; light winds, lots of tide gates and much human power, and also the Fastnet (signing off the endurance/stupidity criteria) . Plan for 2022 is ship to Caribbean for the 600 and few other races... then either back home or to Vancouver

Better bring Pete Goss with you...

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10 hours ago, mundt said:

I've actually been lucky enough to sail a Seacart.  Apex predator for sure.  Absolutely amazing.  Kinda big to human power but they've done it on F31s, right?  Or you could just buy my L7.  Not as fast but trailerable, similar interior space and lots of bang for buck.  Of course if you can buy the Seacart, you'd give yourself a reasonable shot at being first to finish.  

You still haven't sold the L7? That would be a good boat for the R2AK and the price is such that you could laugh your way up the course.

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12 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

You still haven't sold the L7? That would be a good boat for the R2AK and the price is such that you could laugh your way up the course.

I have trouble laughing when I am cold Russ. But you are right about that price.

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On 10/15/2020 at 8:21 PM, gspot said:

How is the Seacart in light air with a load?

My thinking is that the Seacart 30 is around 400kgs lighter than my F28R.  It has a larger sail plan, its longer and has more buoyancy in the floats.. plus, its offshore rated.. so, in my mind, it will have better load carrying capacity..  Like for like, a loaded seacart will be faster than a loaded f-boat (28R, 82R, etc).

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I can’t find a current OMR or MOCRA rating for “Morticia” a successful, well known, well travelled SeaCart 30, but from an old OMR rating spreadsheet I have, her weight in OMR measurement condition was 1250 kg. If I recall correctly, she is on the heavy side because of a beefed up T foil rudder, and rating optimisation.....

Weights for F85/R/SR vary considerably depending on who built them and what from.... Same old spreadsheet gives “Trinity”, Peter Hackett’s old boat as 1423 kg in OMR rating condition......

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5 hours ago, Sidecar said:

I can’t find a current OMR or MOCRA rating for “Morticia” a successful, well known, well travelled SeaCart 30, but from an old OMR rating spreadsheet I have, her weight in OMR measurement condition was 1250 kg. If I recall correctly, she is on the heavy side because of a beefed up T foil rudder, and rating optimisation.....

Weights for F85/R/SR vary considerably depending on who built them and what from.... Same old spreadsheet gives “Trinity”, Peter Hackett’s old boat as 1423 kg in OMR rating condition......

ahh ok, I was assuming the Seacart 30 was closer to 950kgs with sails and engine.

From Bob Perry's review here - http://sailingmagazine.net/article-327-seacart-30.html

"To start with, the D/L for this boat without crew is 35.58. That's low enough for me to have double checked my math. But, if we consider that the crew is an essential part of the tri's stability profile and add four 175-pounders to the "all up racing weight" of 2,046 pounds, we get a total displacement of 2,746 and this brings the D/L up to 47.75. Any way you might choose to look at the displacement you can be certain that this is a very light boat"

EDIT.. just noticed Buzz the Seacart 30 chimed in above.. he can set us straight..

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Found another Seacart 30 on the MOCRA website:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxtb2NyYXJhdGluZzJ8Z3g6NDc4Y2I3NTVmMWFkMzQzNw

Weight: 1030kg. The rated weight given is with crew allowance added.

And here is Buzz:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxtb2NyYXJhdGluZ3xneDpiNGVhODg0NzNjYzU1ZWE

Weight: 1000 kg, but with no motor, batteries or anchors etc....

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Interesting thread. Maybe another topic should be the BEST CREW for the R2AK. Twice I have been beaten to the finish by slower boats. Both times I had excellent crew but others sailed better and that can be a function of crew SIZE!  It is a very complicated puzzle.

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This is a very interesting thread!!!

Our F-82R weighs 1120kgs/2470lbs ready to sail, including sails, batteries, motor, ground tackle etc.

We normally sail double-handed in day-races, and while the boat is not great close-hauled, especially in light air, it is spectacular at anything below that in a breeze. Handling is razor sharp and the transitions between displacement and non-displacement modes are seamless.

We recently did a longer 200nm overnight race, added a third crew member and extra provisions, probably an extra 135kg/300lbs, and the impact on boat performance was substantial. I mean it still performed well, but the transitions between displacement and non-displacement modes were no longer seamless - there were times when it seemed like we needed just a bit more power to climb out of the hole. We still had lots of flotation, but the boat just seemed to wallow more, and the handling wasn't as razor sharp. I guess that's to be expected when you increase the weight of the package by more than 10%, but it was still an eye-opener.

As such I'm wondering if a better strategy for the R2AK would be double-handed with auto-pilot?

And then of course there is Airwick who sails better single-handed than the rest of us can under any conditions! 

 

 

 

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Airwick couldn’t do an R2AK non stop.....R2AK history gives you a clue....

Straight off from memory, Elsie Piddock, Mad Dog and the Bird brothers all had 3 crew for starters..... And they all had smaller, lighter boats.

I would do an overnight 200 miler 2 up with an auto pilot, but R2AK with 3 crew, it is a lot longer and very tactical. I have seen more races thrown away and risky situations happen because of over tiredness than possibly carrying too much weight.

All the crew would have to be good at everything, helming, navigation and tactics(ie where you want to be in the upcoming tide cycle). The French Bretons and Normands are particularly good at the tidal stuff, they can read a coast, all too often, many moons ago, to my cost. I have said it before, but I would run a 3 watch system, one on, one on standby, doing chores, making their weight useful and resting as best as/when they can, and one taking compulsory rest,  not to be disturbed, except in emergencies..... 3 hour watches, cycle is on goes off, standby goes on, off goes standby. More often than not, you get 4-5 hours rest overall per cycle.

R2AK is a fascinating race which I would have loved to have done, but time has probably run out... The money certainly has...

 

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No Frenchman nor Briton has entered the race...I would NOT bet against 2 Frenchman on a Seacart 30 with NKE or  maybe B&G pilot. Another option that would be tough to beat are a Alex Thomson with Brian Thompson or similar on the Seacart 30. These are teams used to clicking off 200+ nm day-in, day-out under autopilot. A sub 3 day finish with the right weather window would absolutely be possible!

The hassle with the Seacart 30 is it must be dry sailed...very few east coast locations support that, hence why the number on the east coast of the U.S are low (2 to my knowledge).

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Not to be picky, but a French crew has done R2AK:

https://r2ak.com/2018-teams-full-race/team-liteboat-3/

Not experienced “tidal” sailors though.....

But I agree, well trained/experienced “professional” short handed sailors and a good autohelm could do it. And Seacart 30 would be the “commercially available” weapon of choice.

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morticia was for sale a while ago, maybe still is.... She was heavier because she was customized for offshore racing including T foil rudders and curved lifting float  foils and associated structure. She is another step up from a standard seacart 30.

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19 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Not to be picky, but a French crew has done R2AK:

Don't forget https://r2ak.com/2019-teams-full-race/team-shut-up-and-drive/ on a Figaro and these guys: https://r2ak.com/2017-teams-full-race/team-phocoena/ on a tricat...

I agree having to rest/sleep is going to be a major slow down...
That said I think a team of two "singlehander" should be the fastest on pretty much anything small as you need some good weight carrying capacity for a 3rd crew + gear to be a net gain to overall performance.

Obviously it's not a definite rule and it depends on skills as well as average conditions on the course. It would be interesting to see what performance difference there is between 2 and 3 crew on something like a Seacart as well as how well it goes under human power (which can play a significant role even on a fast boat...). One key area where an extra body might make up for the weight would be in being able to use human propulsion for longer to "motorsail" in marginal conditions.

Mad dog is a bit of an outlier as it's so powered up that the 3 crew makes sense there but I would think Elsie Piddock might have been faster with 2 crew (obviously depending on skills, specific conditions, etc...)...

Anyway, it looks like I flipped flopped several times one which side of the argument to be on several times just in this one post... I think the bottom line is that there are so many variables I don't think there's a definite answer.

I actually think a purpose-built human power only machine good win this: I'm thinking something like a 50' proa with 6 pedaling stations and 12 pro cyclists should be able to average 7 or 8 knots required to beat course record (or at least come in first, especially on a light wind year)... it'd be interesting to run the numbers on that!

PS: I was born about 50km from the "border" so I am almost Breton if that counts for anything...

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I thought the Figaro was mostly Canadian French? Not that it matters....

I have a proa which weighs in at ~970 kg in OMR trim. It has a Base Speed of ~11.3 whereas the Seacart is ~14.8.

Mine is wooden home built without a thread of carbon in the hulls, but if it were built all carbon to the same standard as a Seacart 30, I reckon I could stretch it to 13 metres for the same weight and maybe with a slightly larger rig it might give a Seacart 30 something to think about. Base Speed ~  15.0. Easier to put on multiple pedalling/rowing stations on a 13 m hull than a 9 metre one. Not by coincidence are rowing shells canoe shaped and abnormally long for the number of crew...... Imagine cobbling together a rowing eight for the main hull and a single skull for the ama!

i agree that it is the prolonged physical exertion of the HP parts of the race which could tip the balance on crew numbers.

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1 hour ago, bushsailor said:

morticia was for sale a while ago, maybe still is.... She was heavier because she was customized for offshore racing including T foil rudders and curved lifting float  foils and associated structure. She is another step up from a standard seacart 30.

My understanding is the baseline Seacart 30 was structurally optimized for lifting foils in the amas by the team that did most of the FEA for the Orma 60 teams...so I’m surprised they had to add structure to Morticia.

I think where folks underestimate the Seacart 30 is in her light air performance. When we raced against one locally on the powered up beach cats, she was regularly near max power in 2kts less wind than us. A Nacra I20 with 350lbs on it is hull flying doing close to wind speed upwind in 10kts of breeze...a Seacart 30 is doing the same in about 8kts of breeze.

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57 minutes ago, samc99us said:

....I think where folks underestimate the Seacart 30 is in her light air performance. When we raced against one locally on the powered up beach cats, she was regularly near max power in 2kts less wind than us. A Nacra I20 with 350lbs on it is hull flying doing close to wind speed upwind in 10kts of breeze...a Seacart 30 is doing the same in about 8kts of breeze.

Interesting..... I get similar ball park numbers to those, but with far less sail area. My ama lifts at around nine knots. Have yet to push mine hard in a blow though. Love to know what a G32 cat does in those conditions?

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Russel would know better than I, but in my experience maximizing the sailing on a light, powerful boat in even very light air is way faster over time than any human power contraption on a 30 foot boat.  The human power is probably best used for short spurts to get you out of a cove or on to the next patch of breeze.  On a boat like the Seacart you should be able to maintain a higher speed with really focused sailing than you could paddle/pedal for very long.  I think Mad Dog did the R2AK in a style that would be very hard to beat.  Very, very fast boat, tough crew willing to suffer and take risks.  Though I know there are blokes that could do it, trying to win with only 2 guys and depending on an autopilot in an area like that seems like it would require plenty of good luck.

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10 hours ago, gspot said:

As such I'm wondering if a better strategy for the R2AK would be double-handed with auto-pilot?

My worry would be power. How much battery weight is required to run a tiller pilot for 700 miles? 

I had a 100ah lead acid battery (32kgs) running my st2000 on the return leg of the Dubai to Muscat Race. The battery lasted 34hrs / 200nm in very light wind.

I was also running a chartplotter, AIS, VHF and LED navlights.. nothing excessive.  

Lithium Batteries would be a must.

During the Muscat Race itself... we were doing very well until the last 90 miles.  We were 2nd behind a Swan 100.

We went from 2nd to 5th as the last 90 miles was punching upwind through big waves in light airs. We were a crew of 4 on an F28R with OSR cat 3 equipment.  

It was painful.

Double handed with an autopilot is def the way to go.. but the Muscat race is only 350nm.   

 

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1 hour ago, mundt said:

Russel would know better than I, but in my experience maximizing the sailing on a light, powerful boat in even very light air is way faster over time than any human power contraption on a 30 foot boat.  The human power is probably best used for short spurts to get you out of a cove or on to the next patch of breeze.  On a boat like the Seacart you should be able to maintain a higher speed with really focused sailing than you could paddle/pedal for very long.  I think Mad Dog did the R2AK in a style that would be very hard to beat.  Very, very fast boat, tough crew willing to suffer and take risks.  Though I know there are blokes that could do it, trying to win with only 2 guys and depending on an autopilot in an area like that seems like it would require plenty of good luck.

I think you summed it up nicely. 

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30 minutes ago, can-UK said:

My worry would be power. How much battery weight is required to run a tiller pilot for 700 miles? 

I had a 100ah lead acid battery (32kgs) running my st2000 on the return leg of the Dubai to Muscat Race. The battery lasted 34hrs / 200nm in very light wind.

I was also running a chartplotter, AIS, VHF and LED navlights.. nothing excessive.

Interesting, I ran the number and I have a similar 95Ah lead acid battery and a 95W solar panel. For R2AK the days are long so that should keep in all but the worst rainy days. I ran the number and expect to get just over 48h of autonomy with 18h of autopilot a day. This is based on measured draws for nav lights, radio, instruments, autopilot (assuming twice the power use from what I measured in a light chop), 4h of a Wallas heater per day (assuming I actually get and install one), and some allowance for cabin lights and USB charger.
Of note is that in fairly flat water, the autopilot actually uses less power than the radio (that's a VHF with integrated AIS receiver). Do you have an AIS transponder or just receiver (if it's a separate receiver from the radio that would also draw a lot more)? These are surprisingly power hungry (my VHF alone ends up being over 30% of my total power budget).

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2 hours ago, mundt said:

Though I know there are blokes that could do it, trying to win with only 2 guys and depending on an autopilot in an area like that seems like it would require plenty of good luck.

With 2 guys on a fast boat (planning on <5 days), I don't think you would have to use the autopilot that much. Also during the night the autopilot will avoid the logs just about as well as a helmsperson (i.e. it won't either...). But obviously every hour of daylight you use the autopilot increases your odds of hitting something.
All you can really do is make sure you are going slow enough so that you don't get catastrophic damage when you do hit something... A race like this will always require a significant amount of luck to complete successfully/wing regardless of crew, gear and preparation.

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You used the phrase, "make sure you are going slow enough". Hahajahaha!  Exactly!  You are either in full balls to the wall "Mad Dog" style of you are on a tour.  I suppose 2 very hard fellows could win on a very fast boat, but 3 might be better.  I seem to remember Mad Dog having 5. I saw them sailing locally at extreme speed.  You think you can beat that?  I have serious doubts.

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8 hours ago, bushsailor said:

morticia was for sale a while ago, maybe still is.... She was heavier because she was customized for offshore racing including T foil rudders and curved lifting float  foils and associated structure. She is another step up from a standard seacart 30.

I seem to recall Morticia was traded for the ORMA Vodafone (with a little adju$tment).

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5 hours ago, mundt said:

You used the phrase, "make sure you are going slow enough". Hahajahaha!  Exactly!  You are either in full balls to the wall "Mad Dog" style of you are on a tour.  I suppose 2 very hard fellows could win on a very fast boat, but 3 might be better.  I seem to remember Mad Dog having 5. I saw them sailing locally at extreme speed.  You think you can beat that?  I have serious doubts.

 

3DB5A182-8AD0-4C93-A537-8730CE0CBCE3.jpeg

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23 hours ago, Sidecar said:

Found another Seacart 30 on the MOCRA website:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxtb2NyYXJhdGluZzJ8Z3g6NDc4Y2I3NTVmMWFkMzQzNw

Weight: 1030kg. The rated weight given is with crew allowance added.

And here is Buzz:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxtb2NyYXJhdGluZ3xneDpiNGVhODg0NzNjYzU1ZWE

Weight: 1000 kg, but with no motor, batteries or anchors etc....

Buzz weighs 1100K with everything inc sails (MOCRA are not light ship weights) in Cat2  safety kit inc liferaft 

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26 minutes ago, SSolo said:

Buzz weighs 1100K with everything inc sails (MOCRA are not light ship weights) in Cat2  safety kit inc liferaft 

Part 12.0 Empty Weight:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxtb2NyYXJhdGluZ3xneDo1ODg5ZjU2MTJjYmMzZmU4

Look at your certificate..... Link given upthread.

A boat can be heavier than its certificate?

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Buzz has an Efoy unit for power, LiFe battery and a load of tweaks for offshore/shorthanded (detailed on Buzz's FB pages)
the Seacart power is in the light stuff and power reaching.. she is bloody uncomfortable upwind in a seastate; but performance wise we can take on the whole RORC fleet and get line honors and regularly are in  the top 5 
it really is being the small hooligan :-)

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31 minutes ago, SSolo said:

Buzz weighs 1100K with everything inc sails (MOCRA are not light ship weights) in Cat2  safety kit inc liferaft 

Apologies. Link upthread is not your current certificate.....

Buzz is 1147 kg measured, and the certificate tells you what they have included:

Phttps://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxtb2NyYXJhdGluZ3xneDo0MzQyMWNiZjcyMDZmYWUx

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25 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Part 12.0 Empty Weight:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxtb2NyYXJhdGluZ3xneDo1ODg5ZjU2MTJjYmMzZmU4

Look at your certificate..... Link given upthread.

A boat can be heavier than its certificate?

they weighted us less mainsail and Efoy and few other bits (hence the 100Kg) ; we told them of the weights, cert  has not been updated. will be sorting in jan new certificate... also some sail changes c/o Doyle sails NZ/UK  ;-)

 

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The autopilot isn't as useful as you might think on the R2AK because of all the shit in the water. I used mine a bit but mostly for making a sandwich in lighter air or for spinnaker take downs. The one time I put my head down I had a weird feeling and looked up just in time to flash past a large log only a couple of feet away. Hitting a small log at speed would destroy some of the boats that enter this race. A large log would sink most of the mono's that enter.

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Is there that much more shit in the water north of Cape Scott?

I've done thousands of miles of singlehanded watches under autopilot on my 12 metre monohull around all parts of Vancouver Island, but admittedly not north of Cape Scott. 

With an autopilot you definitely have to keep watch and adjust the pilot a few degrees up or down to avoid crap or for wind shifts, but I find it far less fatiguing to keep watch under autopilot than while helming, so I can easily do 3-4 hour watches around the clock. It's also much easier to trim the sails, look for wind shifts etc.

That said, compared to our multihull the monohull sails  like a freight train - once you get it going it sails at pretty much the same speed for the given conditions, so the apparent wind doesn't move around very much. I have comparatively little experience sailing a multihull under autopilot, but I could imagine the acceleration of the boat and the resulting apparent wind shifts to be a complicating factor. 

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37 minutes ago, gspot said:

Is there that much more shit in the water north of Cape Scott?

I've done thousands of miles of singlehanded watches under autopilot on my 12 metre monohull around all parts of Vancouver Island, but admittedly not north of Cape Scott. 

With an autopilot you definitely have to keep watch and adjust the pilot a few degrees up or down to avoid crap or for wind shifts, but I find it far less fatiguing to keep watch under autopilot than while helming, so I can easily do 3-4 hour watches around the clock. It's also much easier to trim the sails, look for wind shifts etc.

That said, compared to our multihull the monohull sails  like a freight train - once you get it going it sails at pretty much the same speed for the given conditions, so the apparent wind doesn't move around very much. I have comparatively little experience sailing a multihull under autopilot, but I could imagine the acceleration of the boat and the resulting apparent wind shifts to be a complicating factor. 

G - I can attest that the amount of debris we saw on the way North and the return trip to Victoria was unbelievable. I think the main culprit is the debris from the Skeena River. 

As for the autopilot, if you are wanting something that is going to drive the boat at a continuous race pace you are going to have to spend some $$ on a B&G or NKE system and spend time calibrating everything. We used our AP when pedalling and to free up an extra set of hands dealing with some manoeuvres I think the idea others are talking about of 2 up on a SC 30 is not realistic, keep in mind that if you aren’t sailing you are pedalling, combine that with sail changes, lots of Manoeuvres and a race course that gets harder and harder as you head north I don’t think you could be “racey” for much the course. 

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All this talk about the best boat or best crew for the R2AK and I don’t see any mention of fully crewed monohulls. I find this interesting when, in fact, fully crewed monos have won the race two out of five and were it not for Mad Dog monos would have won three out of five. Jungle Kitty a Fox 44 with eight (I think)  young very good sailors came second to Mad Dog in 2016 leaving some very fast multis in their wake. I was one of them. Of course “ the girls” won in a fully crewed Melges 32 in 2018 and Angry Beavers a fully crewed Shock 40 won in 2019, beating two very fast multis. Angry Beavers and  Jungle Kitty both had the ability to put four young studs on the pedals and I think the girls could put at least two on theirs. Karl Buchan on Madrona said to me after the finish of the 2016 R2AK “We’re never THAT fast, Wayne, but we are always sailing at 100%” I mean going through Seymour Narrows in a total shit storm Karl was forced to put both A and B watches on. Meanwhile we cowered for a few hours. Jungle Kitty never went slower than four knots for their entire race. When it only takes a 7 kt average to get you to Ketchikan in four days, food for thought.

Those of us who have done the R2AK in small powered up multis with small crew talk about abject misery hypothermia, fear, exhaustion and even hallucinations leading to bad decisions and unsafe sailing. Of course the R2AK has been won in small mutis short handed but it’s hard, very hard.

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Wayne and 40Plus have a good point about monos vs. small multis and also exhaustion.

I personally find it much less exhausting to sail our monohull at speed over longer periods than our multihull - maybe it's the sheer size and weight of 12 vs. 8.2 meters and how they respond to the sea state.

Also, our monohull will sustain 10 knots under kite on the rhumb line for hours on end - I've managed to stay ahead of much sportier boats sailing much faster on hotter angles. 

Multis have a massive advantage over monos when power reaching, but less so in windward/leeward conditions, and the advantage is even further diminished when loaded.

In our recent 200NM race there were definitely times when the monohull would have been faster.

 

 

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I agree, a well crewed mono can maintain relatively high averages over long periods of time. Just yesterday at a charity event I had a very pesky J105 on my tail for several laps.  I was only using the white sails but having a full crew is a game changer, especially over longer distances.  One year in The Border Run on my R21 we were killing it in fairly light air with the assym up.  I had a comfy old lawn chair tied to the hull and it was perfect conditions for myself and my bro.  As the afternoon progressed a new French sport boat sailed by 4 French pros creeped up on us.  We were sailing reasonably well, we won our class, but they were on another level.  As they passed us they were constantly tweeking every aspect of their boat.  We could hear them talking very quietly and making tiny adjustments.  Hard to do that for more than a few hours when shorthanded

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4 hours ago, mundt said:

I agree, a well crewed mono can maintain relatively high averages over long periods of time. Just yesterday at a charity event I had a very pesky J105 on my tail for several laps.  I was only using the white sails but having a full crew is a game changer, especially over longer distances.  One year in The Border Run on my R21 we were killing it in fairly light air with the assym up.  I had a comfy old lawn chair tied to the hull and it was perfect conditions for myself and my bro.  As the afternoon progressed a new French sport boat sailed by 4 French pros creeped up on us.  We were sailing reasonably well, we won our class, but they were on another level.  As they passed us they were constantly tweeking every aspect of their boat.  We could hear them talking very quietly and making tiny adjustments.  Hard to do that for more than a few hours when shorthanded

Key word: new. They were tweaking everything because they didn’t have the settings dialed in before the race. Yes, tough to do endlessly, but also not necessary if the boat is dialed in beforehand.

Certainly fully crewed boats can have an advantage, and the Burd Brothers went with 3 after their experience 2 up on a beachcat the year prior. That being said, the right pros with the right boat 2 up can probably win it...

Some good reading on short handed sailing on the Seacart 30:

https://www.petegoss.com/pages/seacart-30/98

https://www.sail-world.com/USA/Goss-and-Larsen-extend-lead-in-Round-Britain/-24888?source=google

 

 

 

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MAYBE a couple of Figaro sailors on something like a SC30, maybe if the conditions were favourable.  I think you underestimate the difficulties of sailing this race course shorthanded on a high performance multi. Very difficult if not impossible to get enough sleep unless, like I mentioned before, the conditions are ideal. The round Britain article is a testament to the SC30, however they were racing in double-handed race with stopovers not against another high performance multi with a full crew. 
 

 

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2 hours ago, samc99us said:

Certainly fully crewed boats can have an advantage, and the Burd Brothers went with 3 after their experience 2 up on a beachcat the year prior.

However, I don't believe the brothers had an autopilot on their cat. This essentially means they were single handing the entire time (as one had to rest). 

As @Russell Brown mentions,  an autopilot isnt magically another crew mate... but it does help... A lot.

A really good quote from here, which is really the point that others have been making on this thread;

2 hours ago, samc99us said:

Some good reading on short handed sailing on the Seacart 30:

https://www.petegoss.com/pages/seacart-30/98

"In fact it is our biggest challenge and perhaps the essence of our race, Can we walk the line and release the potential of this pocket-sized rocket ship whilst battling wild weather and fatigue without actually putting it in? It could all end so quickly."

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On 10/18/2020 at 7:47 PM, samc99us said:

I think where folks underestimate the Seacart 30 is in her light air performance.

Truth.  Fully powered up in less than 10 easily.

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 SC30 light airs performance is its key, along with great offwind... we have been working with Doyles on new headsails to max the these attributes for 2021 :-)
some end of season (2020) test sails were very promising

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Ok this is fantastic! I have found another boat that I think my team is interested in taking on this race. its name is time machine, and its a super modified Granger 8 meter.  Currently We are looking at a team of 6. Three of us are college sailors with lots of keelboat experience and three of us are foiling sailors with Moth, N18, Seacart 30, Kite foiling, and 49er experience as well. Also Daniela Moroz is our #6. 

We are currently trying to fill our sponsor roll right now, and Im working full time on it. If anyone has any advice on the program, I would love to hear it!

 

https://www.graingerdesigns.net/the-lab/time-machine-part-1/#:~:text=Time Machine was originally built,by Tony Grainger in 1985.&amp;text=The main modification to the,very successfully by Doug Trott.

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5 hours ago, CWK said:

Ok this is fantastic! I have found another boat that I think my team is interested in taking on this race. its name is time machine, and its a super modified Granger 8 meter.  Currently We are looking at a team of 6. Three of us are college sailors with lots of keelboat experience and three of us are foiling sailors with Moth, N18, Seacart 30, Kite foiling, and 49er experience as well. Also Daniela Moroz is our #6. 

We are currently trying to fill our sponsor roll right now, and Im working full time on it. If anyone has any advice on the program, I would love to hear it!

 

https://www.graingerdesigns.net/the-lab/time-machine-part-1/#:~:text=Time Machine was originally built,by Tony Grainger in 1985.&amp;text=The main modification to the,very successfully by Doug Trott.

 

6 people seems like too many to me.  But I haven't done RtA and I don't own the boat.  So ask the experts.

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It does to me also. It seems to usually sail with 3. Using current OMR data, Ave/Base Speed with 3 crew @100 kg each is ~ 13.0 knots, and with 6 crew is ~ 12.5 knots. Measured crewless weight BTW is 1245kg.

CWK might also want to check out structural loadings with Tony Grainger as well. 6 people, extra gear, pedal machines, food, water, etc could be a deal breaker. Literally, in bad conditions. IIRC Randy Miller/Mad Dog  sailed with only three instead of the usual 4/5 , ditched the boom for the pedal drive and cut down everything he could to keep the all up weight of his boat no heavier than it would be for racing normally.

It would be wise to check out all the careful planning and preparation that Randy did in any case,  because most of the crew will be sleeping/resting on the trampoline netting?

11443A11-FF09-4D02-B2E4-88C7FA585580.jpeg

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Time Machine is a fantastic boat and I seriously considered buying it a year or so ago. She has been beautifully modified for ROUND THE BOUY RACING. The last I checked she has not yet been fully sorted out but has tons of potential. She  lacks the ability to carry weight and a crew of six with gear for the R2AK would almost sink her. She has all the bells and whistles but is far from simple to sail. Her mast cant system is electric and works great for day sailing but not so hot for distance. I love that boat and used for the intended purpose would be too much fun. Sail light, sail fast. 

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I also seriously considered buying Time Machine, but the logistics of shipping from AUS in conjunction with the emerging availability of a local F-82R changed that. 

The build quality of Time Machine is very high and no expense has been spared - she's an amazing deal!

I also agree with Wayne that a crew of six is way too large for this boat - if she still floated she would perform like a dog with that much weight.

Also note that the boat in its current configuration was not designed by Tony Grainger. The main hull was designed by Tony Grainger, as were the amas but from a different Grainger design, and Matt von Bibra combined the two,  lengthening the amas and adding the reverse shear bows in the process. 

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2 hours ago, D Wayne G said:

Time Machine is a fantastic boat and I seriously considered buying it a year or so ago. She has been beautifully modified for ROUND THE BOUY RACING. The last I checked she has not yet been fully sorted out but has tons of potential. She  lacks the ability to carry weight and a crew of six with gear for the R2AK would almost sink her. She has all the bells and whistles but is far from simple to sail. Her mast cant system is electric and works great for day sailing but not so hot for distance. I love that boat and used for the intended purpose would be too much fun. Sail light, sail fast. 

Ok the weight problem does make sense. What do you suppose the most weight it that you could put into the boat before it would really start to suffer?

I will not do this race with a team of 3, I do not have the experience and I do not have the sleep deprivation magic that those Frenchman do. 

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3 hours ago, D Wayne G said:

Sail light, sail fast

This. Large crew may work better on a monohull.

1 hour ago, CWK said:

I will not do this race with a team of 3, I do not have the experience and I do not have the sleep deprivation magic that those Frenchman do. 

Therefore, this is one constraint for your boat selection! If you think that you NEED 4 or 5 or 6, that will very quickly help you narrow down your options. A multihull with crew of 5 or 6 will need to either be larger (35ft+), or don't expect to win. Otherwise go monohull for the carrying capacity. Very doable to win this race with 6-8 crew on a Monohull as we have seen in the past.

PS. I'm doing it with just 2 crew, but for me it's all about fun and adventure - not to necessarily win it all. But I love pain, I have zero problems sleeping in a bivy on a tramp if it means increasing the feeling of hauling ass everywhere I go.

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1 hour ago, CWK said:

Ok the weight problem does make sense. What do you suppose the most weight it that you could put into the boat before it would really start to suffer?

I will not do this race with a team of 3, I do not have the experience and I do not have the sleep deprivation magic that those Frenchman do. 

There's a noticeable difference in the performance of our F-82R between sailing with two crew for day races and 3 crew for overnight races - each person with gear adds on the order of 10% to the weight of the boat.

Time Machine is slightly bigger with a more powerful sail plan, but I certainly wouldn't expect to be competitive with any more than 4 crew. 

If you want to sail with six I'd concur with Floating Duck and recommend a quick multihull, like the Flying Tiger 10 or Farr 40 - both are relatively easy to sail fast. The Flying Tiger 10 is a weapon in light air.

I would also be reluctant to sail anything in the R2AK without first spending a few hundred hours practicing closer to home in a variety of conditions. 

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1 hour ago, CWK said:

I will not do this race with a team of 3, I do not have the experience and I do not have the sleep deprivation magic that those Frenchman do. 

Sleeping off watch on the tramp does wonders for sleep deprivation!

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1 hour ago, CWK said:

Ok the weight problem does make sense. What do you suppose the most weight it that you could put into the boat before it would really start to suffer?

I will not do this race with a team of 3, I do not have the experience and I do not have the sleep deprivation magic that those Frenchman do. 

Time Machine has a tiny main hull with very little volume.Three guys and gear for the R2AK will max the poor little thing out. If you need more and want to be competitive for the win TM may not be the boat for you. My boat Mail Order Bride is an F85SR with considerably more volume than Time Machine and I would not consider doing the R2AK with more than three. But that’s just me.
the big question is, are you in it to win it or just to do the race?

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1 hour ago, Sidecar said:

Sleeping off watch on the tramp does wonders for sleep deprivation!

Especially when each tack may only last 20 minutes or so! Due in part to how skinny these waters are, and the increased speed/angles of multihulls.

2 hours ago, andykane said:

Here you go - just find the old pedal drives and go for 1st: http://swiftsureyachts.com/wylie-fox-44-ocelot/

Buy this. Wow what a price.

I promise you, it can have much, much higher average speeds than many multihulls. Especially after you your first log.

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53 minutes ago, Floating Duck said:

Especially when each tack may only last 20 minutes or so! Due in part to how skinny these waters are, and the increased speed/angles of multihulls.

Buy this. Wow what a price.

I promise you, it can have much, much higher average speeds than many multihulls. Especially after you your first log.

Jungle Kitty is a fantastic boat. Let’s not forget that the fact that it did so well in the R2AK had a lot to do with the crew. It was packed with young, motivated and very talented sailors. They had fun and were fun to be around. Good boat + good crew can win races. You need both.

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12 minutes ago, unShirley said:

The second place boat last year, Pear Shaped Racing, looks to be very similar to Time Machine.  Is it?  PSR is a little longer.  It was sailed with 3 people aboard.  

Time Machine was built from a Grainger 075 main hull which is 8m (26 ft) long and Essential 8 floats that were extended by about 1.1m (3.6 ft) to 9.2m (30.2 ft) with a 7m (23 ft) beam.

Dragon (Team Pear Shaped Racing) is a Cochrane 10.6m (34 ft) boat with a 7.6m (25 ft) beam.

So Dragon is quite a bit bigger than Time Machine, especially in the main hull where load carrying capacity is important.

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If you need 6 mammals to do the race you're going to need a very large multi or a somewhat large mono.  You could still have a great time but maybe someone with actual knowledge could enlighten us on the total weight each person and gear + provisions would be for 2 weeks unsupported.  300-400 pounds?  Maybe a race like Round Britain, 3 Peaks or Caribbean 600 could offer some clues.

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1 hour ago, unShirley said:

The second place boat last year, Pear Shaped Racing, looks to be very similar to Time Machine.  Is it?  PSR is a little longer.  It was sailed with 3 people aboard.  

At 34.5’ I think we are about 6’ bigger than Time Machine. We sailed with 3 in the 2019 R2AK, when you add gear, water etc we were sailing with equivalent weight of 4. With just 3 on a boat like Dragon it was very tiring, if you aren’t sailing you are pedalling or doing sail changes, navigation etc and a lot of sail changes which amounted to little or no sleep. We were having hallucinations on the last day, not fun and not safe.  I don’t think Time Machine would have the load carrying ability to sail with three and still perform well so you with two you would essentially be sailing single handed in order for the other person to get some rest. Better have a good AP. 

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1 hour ago, eastern motors said:

The boats (monohulls) with more crew do well because of more pedal drives???  And more people to rotate pedaling?

No. As the owner of a 12m (40') monohull and 8.2m (27') multihull and having done long distance races on both, I think there are quite a few reasons generally related to their sailing characteristics. 

First of all, monohulls are generally longer and therefore have higher displacement hull speeds. It's relatively easy to sail a 40' monohull to it's displacement hull speed of 8.5 knots, even when fully loaded, and with a modest amount of crew alertness. A typical R2AK multihull in the 25-27' range only has a displacement hull speed of 6.7 knots. In order to sail this multihull above its displacement speed you need it to be light, you need breeze, you need skill, and you need to be alert. When you get tired or the breeze dies it's easy to fall back into displacement mode, and that lumbering monohull will chase you down from behind. 

Second, while most performance multihulls will absolutely destroy any monohull reaching in a breeze, when the race is windward/leeward the advantage dissipates because of the hotter angles the multihull needs to sail. For example, if that lumbering monohull is doing 10 knots dead downwind under kite, the multihull which is gybing through 90 degrees needs at least 14 knots of boat speed to even keep up. And that 10 knots on the monohull is relatively easy to maintain, comparatively speaking, especially when the boat is loaded down or the crew is tired. And the monohull can carry more crew which reduces the watchkeeping requirements on each person.

Third, sail trim tweaks on a monohull may gain or lose you a quarter to half a knot of boat speed, while the same tweaks on a multihull may gain or lose you 3-4 knots. So when you're tired and not entirely on your game you have much more of your speed potential to lose on the multihull. 

Fourth, multihulls are much more sensitive to sea state than monohulls. You can safely drive a larger monohull much harder in a seaway than you can a smaller multihull. 

Fifth, multihulls require more breeze to sail to their potential than monohulls. If the R2AK was consistently sailed in 15+ knots of breeze there would be no contest. But in light air a small multihull is just a short displacement boat. 

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A Seacart 30 might disagree with your "light air" comment. If you need lotsa bodies and want some chance of being up front how about a used Class 40 boat?  Optimized by experts and made to rack up the miles in all conditions.  Not sure about the human propulsion but maybe 2 good cyclists pedalling?  I'm guessing their super deep draft might cause some hubbub.  I can't think of a fast multi under 45 feet that would be happy with 6 bodies and gear aboard.  One thing that's always weird to me is how many monos prefer to race with relatively massive crews.  Like Olsen 30 uses 8 guys.  Imagine trying to race an F31 with 8 fatties on one side.  Weird.

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