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I think you should be wary of comparing data like for like between monos and multihulls from different years. Saying monos have won almost half of the R2AKs has to do with who is signed up. The line u

All this talk about the best boat or best crew for the R2AK and I don’t see any mention of fully crewed monohulls. I find this interesting when, in fact, fully crewed monos have won the race two out o

Team Shunt Up and Drive?

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54 minutes ago, mundt said:

I'm guessing pretty much any boat that will sail at the front of the R2AK fleet will require a tough, skilled crew that knows their boat very well.  Just like fast cars or airplanes if you have to ask basic questions it indicates that you might want to start with something at the lower end of the performance spectrum and work your way up.  The ladies on the F27 did a very nice job with realistic expectations and a good, solid boat.  Their goal wasn't to win but to perform well in good style.  Just because you can afford a Formula 1 car doesn't make you Lewis Hamilton.  I've sailed on the Seacart and pushing the boat 24/7 for hundreds of miles would require some really skillful operators.  Think you're ready to fly 2 hulls at 3 in the morning?  In that scenario you need a very skilled driver and minimum one very good crew to wring the boat's neck without flipping. Being very stiff and powerful make it a pretty physically demanding boat as well.  

This is a key point^^^

Personally I'd be too busy shitting my pants on something like an Extreme 40 to use it to any effect in this race.

I scored last year's finishers with PHRF-NW ratings and the results were very interesting:

image.png.996eb08bcdc0d5a2cff658ff40b2482d.png

The guys on Educated Guess absolutely sailed the crap out of that boat, to the point that the finished within an hour of a much faster Melges 32, and three hours faster than an F32 that should have clobbered them.

The key question is how fast YOU can sail the boat YOU showed up with. 

Team Pestou is planning to sail an F24-2 and I'm certain he will destroy some much faster boats.

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You guys do raise a fair point here. I haven't found any Seacart30s for sale that would fit the bill for this race. So that leaves the other options, what else is fast enough and able to power through the light stuff for a victory? I understand that The Melges is a fast boat, but wouldn't something from an open class do better overall? like an Open 30 or an Open 40?

 

Also my team comes from a foiling back ground, and has an extensive knowledge of high performance racing. Serval of us are offshore sailors, but most are buoy racers. 

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4 hours ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

I personally would look for the lightest, sportiest sport boat I could find, and then add even more sail area in the form of a screecher.  

The reason being the lighter the boat, the easier it would be to pedal the thing.  I'd also probably stay away from boats with wide flat sterns because they get sticky in light air. 

 

Of course You need to re balance the boat to bow down and also one needs a tall mast in light wind.

IMHO F32SRCX is one of the best trimaran boats ever made. Easily can be launched from trailer, in same time super fast and if sailed by the competitive crew, it can be even faster than SeaCart30. I have seen what  it(F32SR "Today")can do vs Seacart30, both with seasoned crew .

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I’ve talked to a F31 sailor and at one point they called the coasties and just said “it’s pretty fucking hairy so just to let you know, we might need you” they were concerned of pitchpoling. They made it through but those were pretty serious experienced multi guys on a less HP boat tha what you’re thinking. That Wylie/Fox would do the job. Narrow and light. So would the Extreme but the Extreme can flip and stay that way. 
 

rhe merges and wylie are narrow. The Opens are wide, so more wetted surface to be a problem in the light.

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13 hours ago, CWK said:

You guys do raise a fair point here. I haven't found any Seacart30s for sale that would fit the bill for this race. So that leaves the other options, what else is fast enough and able to power through the light stuff for a victory? I understand that The Melges is a fast boat, but wouldn't something from an open class do better overall? like an Open 30 or an Open 40?

 

Also my team comes from a foiling back ground, and has an extensive knowledge of high performance racing. Serval of us are offshore sailors, but most are buoy racers. 

With the exception of Mad Dog’s M32 (which I couldn’t find a PHRF rating for) all the other boats that have won have rated between -12 and +27, so fast but not ridiculously fast.

So basically any ~30’ racing multi or ~40’ racing mono would put you within stoking distance.

On the mono side I think a Farr 40, CM 1200 or the Fox 44 could win with a crew of 6.

On the multi side I think any Farrier/Corsair F3/8/9xR could win, as could the Seacart, Time Machine etc but with a smaller crew to keep the weight down. 

Obviously any bigger/faster boat could win too.
 

 

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You seem determined to have a chance at winning.  You might look at Gspot's excellent chart and his comments.  2 things will be required:                                 

1. A reasonably fast boat that you can safely push hard in all conditions day and night as well as "human propel" at 3 knots for at least a couple hours.

2.  A very skilled crew that has practiced a lot on said boat and can safely sail it to its limits 24/7 in all conditions.

Mad Dog was more than reasonably fast which required lots of skill, toughness and some luck.  That was an amazing performance.  I think a trimaran of between 30-35 feet should be near the pointy end.  I'd say a good, fast 40 foot mono would do it with a bit less suffering.  If you find a boat and start practicing now in all kinds of conditions, find a great human propulsion system, refine your gear and provisioning and get yourself a very good navigator who spends lots of time studying every possible route you might have a chance.  

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13 hours ago, CWK said:

You guys do raise a fair point here. I haven't found any Seacart30s for sale that would fit the bill for this race. So that leaves the other options, what else is fast enough and able to power through the light stuff for a victory? I understand that The Melges is a fast boat, but wouldn't something from an open class do better overall? like an Open 30 or an Open 40?

 

Also my team comes from a foiling back ground, and has an extensive knowledge of high performance racing. Serval of us are offshore sailors, but most are buoy racers. 

What boats do your team members have experience with? Maybe that would help with choosing a weapon.  

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My old F9AR Redshift is for sale. I built that boat light and strong so that she could carry a load and be competitive. She rated -12 when I sailed her and is weapon in all conditions. She could support a crew of four and be very competitive in the R2AK. 

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3 minutes ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

What boats do your team members have experience with? Maybe that would help with choosing a weapon.  

Heyyyyyyy there @JanetC Gougeon32

How about loaning us your G32?! :P

I was always impressed at the daily numbers Russell was able to put in one of these, even while single handed and resting. He kept up and even beat fully crewed teams, which really goes to show how well an efficient boat/system can do (instead of just a powerful one).

Randys M32 was also in this "efficient" category IMO, it was just much more hardcore.

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7 minutes ago, D Wayne G said:

My old F9AR Redshift is for sale. I built that boat light and strong so that she could carry a load and be competitive. She rated -12 when I sailed her and is weapon in all conditions. She could support a crew of four and be very competitive in the R2AK. 

THIS! 

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5 hours ago, mundt said:

I think a trimaran of between 30-35 feet should be near the pointy end.  I'd say a good, fast 40 foot mono would do it with a bit less suffering.  If you find a boat and start practicing now in all kinds of conditions, find a great human propulsion system, refine your gear and provisioning and get yourself a very good navigator who spends lots of time studying every possible route you might have a chance.  

THIS.

Plus luck...... You could be way out in front and still hit a big log in your last sleep deprived night of the race.

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7 hours ago, mundt said:

 If you find a boat and start practicing now in all kinds of conditions, find a great human propulsion system, refine your gear and provisioning and get yourself a very good navigator who spends lots of time studying every possible route you might have a chance. 

Personally I think you’d be better off to get Redshift and start practicing with her now than waiting the two months Time Machine would spend on the back of a freighter.

I wonder if there’s some way to facilitate an on the water transfer and delivery? For example tow her out to Boundary Pass with another boat, transfer the tow to another boat and carry on? Or maybe a commercial delivery service could tow her all the way across the border on her trailer?

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Ok well these are all good options. So far I like the fox 44 and the F9 the most. The fox is significantly easier to get my hands on considering I live in WA, and I know the owners. 

I think I might even be able to get some coaching from the great Ben and Jen Glass while Im at it.

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48 minutes ago, CWK said:

Ok well these are all good options. So far I like the fox 44 and the F9 the most. The fox is significantly easier to get my hands on considering I live in WA, and I know the owners. 

I think I might even be able to get some coaching from the great Ben and Jen Glass while Im at it.

Do it

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22 hours ago, CWK said:

So that leaves the other options, what else is fast enough and able to power through the light stuff for a victory? 

 

I have not raced to Alaska, but have read a fair bit and done a couple of design studies for teams that have.

The key requirements are:

Able to bump into logs and other floating stuff and continue:  Appendages must be either bullet proof or kick up, bows should be raked or soft and replacable, hulls need to be tough.

Light air ability:  Tall rigs are better than huge headsails.  There is almost always some breeze above 40'.  Low wetted surface/light weight is important, same as it is for HP.

Low stress sailing:   Extras, complexity, cold and wet are all stress raisers.  A rig that can be entirely handled from inside the boat by one person resolves these and  lets the other crew rest.  Hugo Boss is a big step in this direction, but he still has to go on deck to set and lower sails, run sheets, etc.  Plus he needs a ridiculous amount of gear to make it possible. 

High average speed for the conditions.  Waterline length provides this better than anything else.  A 50' hull with the same weight, sail area and righting moment will be quicker, safer and more comfortable than a 30'ter.  

So, take the materials for a  32' lightweight cat.  

Build one double ended hull 50' long.  This will be narrower and lower than the 32' hulls as it has more than double the pitch resistance, will not contain accommodation and does not have sails, beam or trampoline attached to the bows.  Use the saved material to build an 18' long hull with a sleeping space in one end, stove in the other and a pram hood over the hatch.   The pram hood provides shelter and allows vision of the sail, horizon and water in front of the boat.    

Use simple hull cross section shapes, speedy build methods and do not worry too much about the finish above the waterline and the hulls could be built in a few weeks.   

Anchors, food, water and other gear are in a waterproof bag that slides along the tramp, to adjust righting moment.   

The 32' cat beam materials will build you longer beams as there is no mast compression, shroud or traveller loads.  Max righting moment will be ~ the same.

The materials for the catamaran rudders, daggerboards and their cases and mountings will be about twice as much as required to build 2 steerable, kick up (for UFO collisions),  liftable (for balance and reducing wetted surface when pedalling) boards attached to the hull sides (no leaks) at 25% and 75% of the long hull.

Take the cost of the mast, rigging, headsails, traveller and the gear and beefing up they require and build  2 unstayed, self vanging (wishbone) rigs.  Building carbon tubes is a simple exercise, if you are not chasing the last couple of % of weight saving.   Carbon wing masts are not much harder.  

Why 2?  It eliminates headsails and foredeck work, allows for more sail area, is less stress to handle and gives you more rig balance options.    Why unstayed?  Less to tune, maintain, worry about or break; automatically depowers in a gust; easing the sheets allows you to sail in squalls on all points of sail without dropping sails;  releasing the sheet completely depowers the boat with no flogging sails or sheets.  

Lead the sheets, gear bag line and tiller extensions to the deck outside the pram hood and one person can sail/trim the boat from the sheltered position.  To reef, release the sheets, the boat stops and you have time and conditions to do it properly, without getting soaked by spray or stressed.  The other crew stays asleep.

Spend half an hour learning to shunt, which is less stress in strong conditions than tacking and (especially) gybing.   Release the sheet, pull in the new one.  The boat stops, starts moving in the other direction and rounding up.  The reversed water flow rotates the rudders and you are sailing again.

Spend an afternoon capsizing and righting it, which is easy with sealed masts stopping the boat going past 90 degrees.  

If you use appropriate materials, leave the fancy paint job until you are ready to sell,  and do the work yourselves, 6 of you could build 3 boats (2 crew on each) for significantly less than the cost of Carbon Credit, with a much more appealing proposal to a sponsor.  Work hard and smart and they would be ready by summer.   

If you want to get further outside the conventional box, build a single unstayed telescoping rig.     Making it telescope is not trivial, but the gains from a tall rig in light air, low windage in heavy air and eliminating the weight and effort required to fly extras make the effort worthwhile.      With a telescoping rig you increase or reduce sail area when the breeze changes.    If the system is sorted, this is less work (and fewer strings) than constantly changing the shape of the sail when the wind changes.    

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I know a lot of guys enjoy attacking this gentleman but I honestly believe this type of boat could well achieve some very high performance.  In a way it's a little like the G32, outside the box but very smart.  It does also meet the requirement of being hard to destroy, probably easily beachable, very simple systems, plenty of carrying capacity, probably very safe.  Not sure how you human propel a fifty foot hull but I guess it would weigh a fraction of a 40 foot mono.  It's probably the risk of building something outside the box that keeps it from happening but I think it would be really fun and fast and easy to shorthand and if somebody has the balls to build one I wanna go for a ride!  

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If Rob could show us that just one of his boat's sails well and is ready for a race, this would be worth listening to, but he can't. I'd honestly like to see him design, build, and race a proa. Until then, it's vaporware. He can talk all he wants, but it takes more than that.

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On a positive note, Sidecar's proa is incredibly beautiful and I bet it could be very fast.  But, of course, in the end, I suppose the French have proven that a trimaran is the most versatile all-around performer.  You can push it harder without as much worry, plain and simple.  Just gotta build that one extra hull, stick a tall mast on it, prod and big furling headsails and then it's all about the crew.  Redshift is certainly a boat that could get the job done.  I've been on a very maximized Reynolds 33 and had a very well tuned F31 causing trouble.  A really good team could do well on an R33, are you willing to push the envelope at 3 a.m?  A maxed F-boat is a weapon in the right hands.

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I sailed on F32src Today against seacart 30 Buzz in the Round the island 2014 .

Very light and ficle conditions.

We were only 15 % of the time in the same area  from diferent tactical choises and with roughly a comparable crewquality.

This gave me the impression that the 3% faster rating difference in favor of Buzz is correct in average windspeeds..

 

But in very light conditions they are at least equal with the F 32 having a far taller rig

Picture is 90% into the race

 

1F823F19-4E99-4885-BE2D-1CAA9286ADEE.jpeg

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4 hours ago, mundt said:

I know a lot of guys enjoy attacking this gentleman but I honestly believe this type of boat could well achieve some very high performance.  In a way it's a little like the G32, outside the box but very smart.  It does also meet the requirement of being hard to destroy, probably easily beachable, very simple systems, plenty of carrying capacity, probably very safe.  Not sure how you human propel a fifty foot hull but I guess it would weigh a fraction of a 40 foot mono.  It's probably the risk of building something outside the box that keeps it from happening but I think it would be really fun and fast and easy to shorthand and if somebody has the balls to build one I wanna go for a ride!  

Thanks Mundt. 
A 50' hull and an empty, almost flying,  18' hull would have similar drag to a 32' cat of the same weight.    It would draw a couple of inches with a flat bottom that would roll easily up the beach on fenders.  
The risk of "building outside the box" is real, and not for conservative sailors, but the outlay is a lot less than a conventional boat.    "Hard to destroy" is a big ask, but certainly harder than most race boats if it was built right.      I am fortunate to be working with the University of Queensland Composite Engineering Department, who are engineering and testing material choices for a prototype 80' cargo proa to service remote Pacific villages.  http://harryproa.com/?p=3788   or   https://www.facebook.com/Harryproa/?ref=page_internal    
 
We  have completed the 8.5m/28' catamaran tender (220 kgs/484 lbs) and this week will put the deck on the 12m/40' windward hull.     To toughen them up, simplify the build and lower the cost, they are solid fibreglass. ie, uncored.   This took more thinking than building cored, but the results are not bad, and improving with each component.  
 
The 40' hull has 5 infused panels (1 roof, 2 cabin, 2 hull in the picture below) which took 2-3 days each to lay up and infuse.  They weigh ~40 kgs/88 lbs each, so around 250 kgs/550 lbs for the completed structure incl ring frames, joins, etc.  Materials are about $AUS10/kg-$US3/lb so $Aus2,500/$US1,800 for the hull.    Surface area is 75 sqm as it includes 2 double bunks, full headroom, galley, toilet, etc.  The mould (used for all the panels) took 2 days to set up, half a day to prep and cost about $Aus400/$US280.  481844063_WWhullworkcontinues.thumb.JPG.2d8f97167070740c588a40169b30e76a.JPG
 
The R2A 15m/50' hull would be about half the area, cost and weight and be quicker to build as it is only 2 panels.    It would be lighter, dearer, slower to build and less tough in foam/glass, more again in carbon/foam.
 
We are also experimenting with trusses for beams and lee hull space frames, to save weight, windage, time  and cost.  We built a 1:5th scale beam (4.5 kg/10 lbs , built from 12mm/0.5" fibreglass rods and tapering to 50mm/2" deep at the loaded end) and applied 500 kgs/1,100 lbs without breaking it.  This photo was taken at 274 kgs/600 lbs.  Something similar on the race boat would remove most of the mast loads from the hull, allowing it to be smaller in section (the 80'ter hull is 800mm/32" high and wide) and, subject to some more testing, weighs just over  a ton.1020032333_Beamtest274kgs.thumb.jpg.24e6a511ee9e7943c0118425a8dd4fa0.jpg
 
The R2A boat would look a bit like a double length and beam (hull heights and widths would stay ~the same) of this 25'ter I designed and built 20 years ago.  Lighter than a Tornado cat, same sail area and longer waterline.  I raced it in Perth against a high class T fleet in 5-25 knots and held my own until we started gybing downwind when they got away.  Since then I have used it for experimenting with rigs, rudders, kites and foils.    P1010112.jpg.359dbd05ec3378bd1dbdaa028b38ca65.jpgP1010097.jpg.32693ded7ffd36299d4c9eee35982d72.jpg
It also sailed well with a una rig.  The stuff hanging off the beam is the water driven 4 line retrieval gear for a 15 sqm/160 sq'  Outleader kite.  Sorry,  no pics of it flying.IMG_0237.thumb.JPG.46695de58291ae86b8771b19d700e51a.JPG
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Are Proas the “right boat” for the R2AK? I don’t know. But having spent a ton of time on this race course I can’t imagine short shunting my way through Seymour Narrows in shite conditions. A blown tack or shunt there or many other locations on this course is a certain show stopper. What a great way to showcase your product Rob. Why don’t you throw one together and enter? Silence your naysayers.

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Proas don't really suffer from blown tacks. It takes a bit of time, but the boat just sits there.

The proa that entered (team pure & wild) suffered from being way too short for the job, but it has been lengthened and will be sailing soon. It's a Bieker design and is owned by him. My proa led the fleet on the way to Victoria that year in windy upwind conditions.

The G-32 is a great R2AK boat, but probably not in a year with really hot competition. I stayed ahead of the Melges until late on the 3rd day in 2018, which maybe says more about the speed potential of that boat than mine. Rather hit a log with the Melges though.

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On 10/23/2020 at 5:04 PM, mundt said:

Just like fast cars or airplanes if you have to ask basic questions it indicates that you might want to start with something at the lower end of the performance spectrum and work your way up... Just because you can afford a Formula 1 car doesn't make you Lewis Hamilton.

...and motorcycles. So easy to buy more technology than can be used well, and so costly to run out of talent or vessel/vehicle, the results of failure often being the same. The faster you go, the higher the stakes, the bigger the splash/crash.

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2 minutes ago, randii said:

...and motorcycles. So easy to buy more technology than can be used well, and so costly to run out of talent or vessel/vehicle, the results of failure often being the same. The faster you go, the higher the stakes, the bigger the splash/crash.

Exactly! I used to race motorcycles, and one of my buddies who was very similar to me in terms of riding ability and lap times went down a class, and actually started turning faster lap times on a "slower" motorcycle because he could safely ride closer to the edge without things going horribly wrong.

Back to boats for a second, there's a really cool set of "global ratings" at racetrack.org.nz. You need to take it with a grain of salt because they are attempting to merge multiple handicapping systems together into a single cohesive listing, but it does present an interesting picture of how various boats compare.

Ratings are always relative, but the Corsair 31 1D is arguably the fastest Farrier-inspired trimaran produced by Corsair

 image.png.a3353502904e214d839387cf636b8626.png

Other Farrier designs such as the F8x/F9x/F3x variants are custom builds and in some cases are higher quality than the commercial Corsair builds, but sometimes not, depending on the care, skill, and methods of the builder. 

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19 hours ago, mundt said:

I know a lot of guys enjoy attacking this gentleman but I honestly believe this type of boat could well achieve some very high performance.  In a way it's a little like the G32, outside the box but very smart.  It does also meet the requirement of being hard to destroy, probably easily beachable, very simple systems, plenty of carrying capacity, probably very safe.  Not sure how you human propel a fifty foot hull but I guess it would weigh a fraction of a 40 foot mono.  It's probably the risk of building something outside the box that keeps it from happening but I think it would be really fun and fast and easy to shorthand and if somebody has the balls to build one I wanna go for a ride!  

You mean a bit like this blast from the past:

SIngle piece ama, two piece vaka and mast, all designed to fit into a 6metre container. Shaded profiles are Sidecar. It wouldn’t need much/if any carbon to match Sidecar’s weight.

Apologies for thread drift......

A14370AA-AFA5-4691-B5E7-E184365A25DD.jpeg

33100CA2-C02B-49EA-85C7-28EDA6B98813.jpeg

25BA8A10-316D-4037-BFD1-C2AC0FCDD94D.jpeg

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So if narrow light weight boats do exceptionally well on this race, and the majority of the people here have denounced multihulls for more than a crew of 4, what does that really leave you with outside of Ocelot? 

 

 

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The key to the race IMHO is HP efficiency and a major part of that efficiency depends on the overall weight it has to push through the water. You need HP for critical stages of the race, which if you get wrong or miss out the tidal/weather window, no amount of superior sailing speed is likely to retrieve the situation.

So when you look a boats, think of the likely HP system and how much weight each HP operator has to shift and how much energy is needed for an extended period to maintain it in order to minimise exhaustion and sleep deprivation. And how much it compromises the sailing efficiency of the boat. Have a look at some of the more  interesting HP systems which have evolved for the race. For me the standouts include Mad Dog, Bad Kitty, Educated Guess (particularly clever) and Russ Brown’s G32.

If I was gearing up a tri or cat for the race, I would have 2 swing up pedal systems, one on each side of c/l, mounted just behind, or attached to the front beams, singly operated, facing forward. Better balance, weight distribution, options and more prop blade area, if not tip speed in the water.

BTW, If you are prepared to ship a boat from the other side of the world, have a look at  the NZ 8.5 multihull class. Some seriously clever boats there, you might get lucky. You missed out on this one:

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-catamarans/bob-fisher-8-5m-nzl-box-rule-catamaran/245314

The F85SR was also designed/adapted for the rule..... As was Mama Tried.

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2 hours ago, CWK said:

So if narrow light weight boats do exceptionally well on this race, and the majority of the people here have denounced multihulls for more than a crew of 4, what does that really leave you with outside of Ocelot? 

 

 

It leaves you with an F31 or 9A with a crew of four. More than that get a monohull.

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On a positive note, Sidecar's proa is incredibly beautiful and I bet it could be very fast.  But, of course, in the end, I suppose the French have proven that a trimaran is the most versatile all-around performer.  You can push it harder without as much worry, plain and simple.  Just gotta build that one extra hull, stick a tall mast on it, prod and big furling headsails and then it's all about the crew.  Redshift is certainly a boat that could get the job done.  I've been on a very maximized Reynolds 33 and had a very well tuned F31 causing trouble.  A really good team could do well on an R33, are you willing to push the envelope at 3 a.m?  A maxed F-boat is a weapon in the right hands.  To CWK's question, look at the size of multi that typically races with 4 or more people.  It's usually going to be a pretty big boat.  Ideally, On a smaller multi you would reduce the number of bodies as you simultaneously increase the ability of each remaining person.  On my L7, if I can just sit on my fat ass and drive, best case scenario would be to have a 150 pound kid that knows a hell of a lot more than I do and anticipates, fixed things, works fast and hard, no talk, no eye contact, I pick the music and the course and blame him if we lose!

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2 minutes ago, D Wayne G said:

It leaves you with an F31 or 9A with a crew of four. More than that get a monohull.

Another monohull option for a crew bigger than four. 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1999/farr-40-3180228/

Or you could get a bigger multihull, like Multihuler’s Antrim 40 Zephyr:

:http://antrimdesign.com/zephyr---antrim-40-trimaran.html

Or Boardhead’s Burrage 40 Skateaway:

https://cartersboat.com/2018/07/12/skateaway-for-sale-sail/

 

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On 10/24/2020 at 4:53 PM, gspot said:

Or maybe a commercial delivery service could tow her all the way across the border on her trailer?

This is much simpler from a paperwork perspective.

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3 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

Apparently a broker can deliver a boat across the border right now. Was just on a boat that came from Cortez that way.

They can, but last I heard not on a trailer (only over water). I talked to a delivery captain the other day in case anyone wants his number, just PM me. Incredibly nice guy and very reasonable prices. 

I was thinking of bringing down my new boat (which is in unfortunately stuck up north...), but at this point I'm going to wait it out as ski season is upon us anyway so won't be sailing over the next couple of months. 

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Sidecar suggested in post 143 that the pedal drive be facing forward.  Here is team Narwals comment on their setup: 

Joel was perfect for the pedal drive.  He once owned a company designing and manufacturing recumbent bikes.  He made 2 drives, one on each aft aka/beam.  They faced inwards, toward each other and made it easy to steer with a hiking stick and pedal at the same time.  This freed up one member to do other things; boat work or rest.  It was extremely useful and appreciated.  Joel’s effort was unique in that the drives had a 5 speed derailleur.  Few other teams had this advantage.  This enabled them to dial in their preferred cadence and level of effort.  Bill mentioned that he appreciated the ability to back off from time to time to relieve his sore knees by just spinning along. 

You can see Narwal's full presentation to our club here with further info on the boat here  Scroll down a bit to get to their presentations.

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I have done about a thousand miles offshore on a turbo Farr 40 and, I've got to say, I am not impressed with its heavy wind performance.  Yes the boat was fast to weather, and it was easy to control power quickly, but my god.  The boat speed is just not there when you have the chance to really pull ahead. 

Looking at that list that Gspot posted, wouldn't it make sense to look at the Corsair 31 1D as well? Don't get me wrong Redshift looks totally badass, but I don't want to limit my options here.

Also I just finished the team website and it will be up tomorrow! We have yet to come up with a name, open to ideas.

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6 hours ago, CWK said:

I have done about a thousand miles offshore on a turbo Farr 40 and, I've got to say, I am not impressed with its heavy wind performance.  Yes the boat was fast to weather, and it was easy to control power quickly, but my god.  The boat speed is just not there when you have the chance to really pull ahead. 

Looking at that list that Gspot posted, wouldn't it make sense to look at the Corsair 31 1D as well? Don't get me wrong Redshift looks totally badass, but I don't want to limit my options here.

Also I just finished the team website and it will be up tomorrow! We have yet to come up with a name, open to ideas.

I also spent a number of days on a standard Farr 40 in 20-25 knots and I agree that the sensation of speed is not what I expected, but I think that's the point of the Farr 40 design brief - fast but not overwhelming and not too hard to sail. Our F-82R would completely destroy the Farr 40 in those conditions and be far more fun to sail. 

In general, in terms of pure speed potential and sailing experience, there is no comparison between a racing multihull and a racing monohull - a racing multihull will deliver far more "Holy shit this is fast" moments than a racing monohull, but in a long race like R2AK it's hard to deny that monohulls do pack away the miles, and are therefore competitive, especially in lighter air.

For multis I think both Redshift and the Corsair 31 1D would be excellent choices that would put you at the competitive end of the fleet with a crew of 3-4. I sense the Corsair 31 1D might have a slight edge in round-the-buoys configuration, whereby Redshift might have slightly more flotation and therefore have the edge with R2AK loads, but Wayne would have to speak to exactly how he build Redshift.

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Either of those trimarans should be near the front of the pack unless another psychopath with a boat like Mad Dog shows up.  A really good wardrobe will help.  Then it's a matter of deciding if you will go with 3 or 4 mammals.  Either way you should practice like hell and spend as much time as possible understanding every nuance of the course.  In the past it seems like boats that make little jumps, escapes from tides and holes and subtle course adjustments are able to consolidate and break away for the win.  Study the way the big dogs that do solo round the world races train for this type of suffering.  If you're really serious about winning that's the level you should be shooting for.

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If memory serves, Mad Dog did a race in my front yard, I think it was just after the R2AK.  It's a race I've done a lot so I just took my boat out and parked in the middle of the channel to watch.  Race started in Santa Barbara.  Mad Dog meandered down the beach, away from the fleet who ran outside, closer to the rhumb line.  When the wind picked up Mad Dog turned on to a tight reach, they must have been doing way over 20 kts. headed for Anacapa Island.  Some of the other competitors couldn't believe they hadn't cheated cuz they were so far ahead at the end.  There were some pretty fast boats out there but a truly high performance multi with a top end in the mid to high 20s can do serious damage.

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4 hours ago, mundt said:

Either of those trimarans should be near the front of the pack unless another psychopath with a boat like Mad Dog shows up.  A really good wardrobe will help.  Then it's a matter of deciding if you will go with 3 or 4 mammals.  Either way you should practice like hell and spend as much time as possible understanding every nuance of the course.  In the past it seems like boats that make little jumps, escapes from tides and holes and subtle course adjustments are able to consolidate and break away for the win.  Study the way the big dogs that do solo round the world races train for this type of suffering.  If you're really serious about winning that's the level you should be shooting for.

This. And make sure the HP drive system is really good and reliable as well.....

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5 hours ago, Sidecar said:

This. And make sure the HP drive system is really good and reliable as well.....

Yeah, I was thinking about using two of the wave walker pedal drives. They are efficient, fast enough, and more importantly proven on team Sail like a girl. Of course we will take extra long stand up paddle board paddles to get the extra power when we need it. 

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Ideal Team:

A. LeCleach= Operator

F. Gabart= Operator

T. Pogacar = Pedaler

Only problem being you gotta feed Pogacar (TDF winner) 10 k + calories per day.  On the plus side he can probably equal a 9.9 h.p. outboard for about 8 hours a day.

Give these guys a sunfish with a mirage drive and they'd win.

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46 minutes ago, CWK said:

Yeah, I was thinking about using two of the wave walker pedal drives. They are efficient, fast enough, and more importantly proven on team Sail like a girl. Of course we will take extra long stand up paddle board paddles to get the extra power when we need it. 

I think the wave walkers were packed up at the end of the first race they did. There's a lot to learn and know about pedal drives. For instance each right angle/bevel gear robs about 5 percent. Twisted chains are problematic. If you can sit sideways and use a chain or belt, you save a ton of power.

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27 minutes ago, mundt said:

Ideal Team:

A. LeCleach= Operator

F. Gabart= Operator

T. Pogacar = Pedaler

Only problem being you gotta feed Pogacar (TDF winner) 10 k + calories per day.  On the plus side he can probably equal a 9.9 h.p. outboard for about 8 hours a day.

Give these guys a sunfish with a mirage drive and they'd win.

You could do a lot better than Pogacar.  His power/weight is amazing but 20 more pounds isn't going to slow the boat down.  He is also subject to drug testing.   

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1 hour ago, CWK said:

Yeah, I was thinking about using two of the wave walker pedal drives. They are efficient, fast enough, and more importantly proven on team Sail like a girl. Of course we will take extra long stand up paddle board paddles to get the extra power when we need it. 

HP is is important, not just a box tick. There are a number of people here with plenty of  R2AK HP  experience. Do you homework!

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2 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

You could do a lot better than Pogacar.  His power/weight is amazing but 20 more pounds isn't going to slow the boat down.  He is also subject to drug testing.   

Does R2AK do drug testing too? Or do they put it all down to sleep deprivation?

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1 hour ago, mundt said:

Ideal Team:

A. LeCleach= Operator

F. Gabart= Operator

T. Pogacar = Pedaler

Only problem being you gotta feed Pogacar (TDF winner) 10 k + calories per day.  On the plus side he can probably equal a 9.9 h.p. outboard for about 8 hours a day.

Give these guys a sunfish with a mirage drive and they'd win.

The problem with your selection is that those three wouldn’t allow a fourth crew on the boat, so there would be no room for CWK.

The Frenchies would probably throw Pogar off as well....

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We legalized that stuff in Canada a couple of years ago, third place prize should be a 6 month supply of BC Bud and a really nice bong from Salt Spring Island.

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I was thinking, for those 3 guys, 5 days of horrible, disgusting, miserable agony is kinda like me sitting on the couch drinking a couple bottles of cheap red wine.  They might finish the race, ring the bell, grab the 10k and do a quick circumnavigation just to fulfill their need to suffer.

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10 minutes ago, Floating Duck said:

All this talk about pedalling...

It IS an el niña kind of year. Could be 30kts all race long. Have to make sure to plan for the top range as well.

Or do you take your chances and only concentrate on one end of the spectrum and hope you are lucky?

Good luck getting out of Victoria Harbour, especially if it is blowing from SW. Seriously though, the odds are pretty small for an HP less race.

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3 hours ago, mundt said:

Give these guys a sunfish with a mirage drive and they'd win.

They’re working on it.......

2BA798FF-F104-41D7-ABAB-58D265EFB025.jpeg

At least with a Sunfish sail board there is a plan B. You eat the other crew......

07446ABD-DA8B-4E9B-9A84-EA0512A9EF6E.jpeg

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3 hours ago, Sidecar said:

The problem with your selection is that those three wouldn’t allow a fourth crew on the boat, so there would be no room for CWK.

The Frenchies would probably throw Pogar off as well....

hahahaha! I love it. My thought behind the store bought pedal drive systems are my time frame. I don't have much time do design test and build something myself, for a boat that I don't yet own. 

 

Also I don't know what kind of boat I can get my hands on yet. The current contenders are Time Machine, Red shift, The Antrim 40. I would go with 4 people on the first two and 6 on the Antrim. 

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43 minutes ago, Floating Duck said:

All this talk about pedalling...

It IS an el niña kind of year. Could be 30kts all race long. Have to make sure to plan for the top range as well.

Or do you take your chances and only concentrate on one end of the spectrum and hope you are lucky?

Interesting, in that case I would think that the Antrim 40 would be an absolute weapon for this race. If we know the wind will be big the whole time then monohulls stand no chance to that thing. 

That is unless the waves are too big for the boat. 

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@CWK Bottom line, what boat do you want to be left with after R2AK? Or will it all be a one off write off?

If you really want to sail with 6, get the Antrim and get on with it, prepare and do your best, enjoy the experience and accept your fate.

Time, as you have already recognised, is your enemy. Which is another factor against Time Machine, the time (and cost!) lost in wrapping it up, bringing it over, and setting it all up again, unless it is the boat you want to keep for yourself afterwards.

 

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2 hours ago, Sidecar said:

@CWK Bottom line, what boat do you want to be left with after R2AK? Or will it all be a one off write off?

I do have to second this.

I'm bringing a boat that maaaaay be considered suboptimal to some, but... It's the boat I want regardless of the R2AK.

I'll be racing it before R2AK (Swiftsure, RTC, etc), and I'll continue racing it after R2AK (Van Isle, etc).

Can't wait to see you out there! 

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10 minutes ago, Floating Duck said:

I do have to second this.

I'm bringing a boat that maaaaay be considered suboptimal to some, but... It's the boat I want regardless of the R2AK.

I'll be racing it before R2AK (Swiftsure, RTC, etc), and I'll continue racing it after R2AK (Van Isle, etc).

Can't wait to see you out there! 

Doing the "Rogue the County"?  I'll see you there.

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11 minutes ago, Floating Duck said:

I do have to second this.

I'm bringing a boat that maaaaay be considered suboptimal to some, but... It's the boat I want regardless of the R2AK.

I'll be racing it before R2AK (Swiftsure, RTC, etc), and I'll continue racing it after R2AK (Van Isle, etc).

Can't wait to see you out there! 

FD - What boat do you have? 

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6 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

Doing the "Rogue the County"?  I'll see you there.

That was my plan! Unfortunately my new boat is stuck in Canada at the moment...

7 minutes ago, 40Plus said:

FD - What boat do you have? 

I'm bringing down a Diam 24 as soon as the damn border opens. I have no hopes of that happening for the next couple of months.

I'm planning to do the 2022 race as I need at least a year to properly turbo the boat (you know, canting mast stuff, t foils in the rudders, big bowsprit with big sails, etc). But more importantly, and rather relevant to the OP, you've got to...

Practice practice practice. 

The reason so many drop out of this race is not because they had the "wrong" boat, but usually because they weren't well prepared.

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If there's any wind and you can figure out how to move it with HP the Antrim should be able to win.  Six people with gear is still a lot, too much weight imho.  If you are serious enough about winning to buy such a beautiful weapon I think 4 is more than enough.  Most mono sailors would probably be a bit shocked by how little interior volume a 40 foot racing tri has.  Pretty sure that particular boat was meant to be raced double-handed.  Some friends of mine had a 44 foot tri, racer/cruiser that they lived on, the interior was tiny, 6 people would barely be able to squeeze inside.  Remember, the main reason a boat like that is fast is because of the power to weight ratio.  Maybe start with a six person team and during intense, frequent practice you whittle it down to 4 "starters.". Whoever is your navigator is going to be critical too.  Can't wait to see the race this year.

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having sailed (won and set records) in UK 3 peaks racing, which are very similar short handed endurance events including human power, offshore shorthanded and inshore in every thing from a Open50, through 40/45 tri, F40, Open30, First class8, F28 and currently the Seacart 30 (Buzz)... here are some thoughts

In these endurance 'multi disipline' events its is 70%+ is the the crew ; being capable to driving hard 24/7 in all weather, rowing/peddling etc.
 have seen hardened offshore racers fail in the intense, sleep deprived, pressure of these events with zero let up. So choose your crew carefully. determination and ability to work and keep performing for day after day on minimal rest, yet managing to properly look after themselves and the other on crew is essential. We don't run a formal watch system  on any of my boats, i trust the team to know when they are on or off, when to rest, eat etc. When to stay on deck , helm or get off and rest and say so working, as a well oiled unit.  All need to be ready to pull 24hrs+ with no sleep  and to know to sleep &eat  at every opportunity. 

The boat IMHO is 30% important
On the boat side it is about it being easy to sail fast ; setting up the systems to facilitate.  Having well developed sails for the wind conditions is important, the sails need to be 'all round' and not ones that need constantly adjusted to maintain the power grand prix style. So find an experienced short handed sail maker who will work with you to develop the right sail shapes  

Having a simple but effective human power set up is essential and in may instances it is very difficult to outperform a well set rowing system with sliding seats & sculls from an Olympic 8 or similar. We have experimented with prop and pedal power, and as yet not opted for that as the complexity overcame the rowing simplicity. However, Buzz as a tri does not fit well with sculls/sliding seats... so pedal power is on the cards for Scottish 3 peaks and British 3 Peaks 2021

I've posted before we are lucky tthat  Buzz's team has access to one heck of a 'skunk room' lead my Pete (my son Hugo Boss designer, who lives outside 'the box') & Scotty (rigger par excellence) with access to brains at Owen Clarke, Allen Bros, Harken, Facnor, Southern Ropes, Doyles, Martsrom etc etc

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On 10/18/2020 at 10:07 PM, mundt said:

Rasputin, why would somebody be cold on my L7?  I think my cabin is actually nicer than the Seacart.  

Not picking on your L7. Just that I would be could on most any boat during the R2AK. I think you and I did a race together with Dave Calvert on GREENFLASH from Miami-Nassau. That is my sort of racing weather...

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Both square, ultra lightweight, Auckland designs: first one, 11.3 metre (37 feet), second foil tri 7.2 metre (22 plus feet), the latter strictly a single handed design. Smaller design has a D shaped mast for double luff main.  No, not being serious.

grouchoFrog.jpg

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I think you should be wary of comparing data like for like between monos and multihulls from different years. Saying monos have won almost half of the R2AKs has to do with who is signed up. The line ups are different each year and if you are trying to win then you need to be faster then who you're racing against.

I have to speak up about the comments of luck and having no fear as this is totally incorrect. Sure you can have bad luck, and we didn't. But we also didn't have great luck and the things that we did good were because of a lot of effort and training to get to that point.

Fear is what drove us to practice, tweak and learn as much as we could so we were prepared for anything. We pushed each other as well to make sure everything was perfect. I don't know how many miles our team had togehter on that boat but it spanned from 2013 and covered a lot of different race types and locations across the US.

Also what I read here so far is most people don't truly understand how fast the M32 is in the full range of conditions(-102 PHRF). We could fly a hull upwind(TWA~45) in about 4-5 knots and hold about 9-10 knots of speed. When the wind is up and we are just on the full main only our speed was between 13-16 knots. And when we started reefing is when the boat truly powers up. Center of effort lowers while still having  stupid amount of righting moment. We had to slow down a few times in Johnstone straight because the boat wanted to 17-18 knots launching off of those stumpy waves.

And this is just upwind sailing.

Downwind as soon as all three of us could hike on the rack we are doing 20s easily. The last night blasting down Hecate straight we were sitting on 26. Could have pushed harder if we weren't so tired already but the boat can definitly hit 30 since we did it before.

We hardly used our peddle drive other then the start.

If your ambitions are to set the course on fire then your focus shouldn't be on human power. You are already to slow if you have to rely on that.

And we sailed with three because we knew at what weight the boat was fastest. (from class weight limits and a few years exprieince). With the supplies we thought we needed, we could only justify the 3 of us. Next time I would bring less food, water, gear and get another person onboard so we could push the boat a little bit harder. I wasn't dehydrated in the end which means we weren't suffering that bad. 

 

image.png.d7600dcd4a2f904d516c4890c2a05bf1.png

 

image.png.b44e038ea41eb141dc60f6c2c03e9a4d.png

 

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On 10/27/2020 at 4:48 PM, mundt said:

If memory serves, Mad Dog did a race in my front yard, I think it was just after the R2AK.  It's a race I've done a lot so I just took my boat out and parked in the middle of the channel to watch.  Race started in Santa Barbara.  Mad Dog meandered down the beach, away from the fleet who ran outside, closer to the rhumb line.  When the wind picked up Mad Dog turned on to a tight reach, they must have been doing way over 20 kts. headed for Anacapa Island.  Some of the other competitors couldn't believe they hadn't cheated cuz they were so far ahead at the end.  There were some pretty fast boats out there but a truly high performance multi with a top end in the mid to high 20s can do serious damage.

That was in 2015 before we did the R2AK. It was almost comical how much shit talking there was before and after the race, we had these guys from Afterburner(some overweight 80s cat that is in Fiji now I think) wanting to place bets on who would be in King Harbor first. I don't know what they were burning but they must have been high to say those things.

Was such a joke and we even got protested by this douche owner of a local tp52 that said we didnt go around Anacapa. His tiny ignorant brain just couldn't believe the time we finished claimed openly/formally that we just out right cheated and skipped the only real mark of the course.

Well we had the GPS tracks to prove it as well as the commodore from one of the clubs anchored off the island and gave us a toot when we rounded. I think there was a thread about the whole thing on here as well actually.

That was my first and only time in SB and found it to be mostly a clown show. Blasting down off Malibu in 25 knots was a highlight though.

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Thanks for the memories!  The guys on Afterburner are all super cool and the boat was very fast in the right conditions, it could sit on over 20 knots for hours and had many records.  The grief you got from the mono guys is normal behavior for them, they spend absurd amounts of money to be "first to finish" then get super angry when a small crew of ragtag hoodlums beats them by hours.  In the Santa Barbara/King Harbor race on the Reynolds 33 prototype we were moving at high speed a few miles from the finish and passed the leading mono.  We were 3 hobos, soaking wet, surfing our asses off.  They were probably 15+ guys, all wearing matching shirts and moving like a chorus line on every jibe.  The only way they can justify their existence is to pretend we don't exist or that we are a perverse anomaly of some sort.  You guys on Mad Dog set a very high standard, thanks for the inspiration!

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4 hours ago, IanA. said:

We hardly used our peddle drive other then the start.

If your ambitions are to set the course on fire then your focus shouldn't be on human power. You are already to slow if you have to rely on that.

My goodness...

FINALLY someone says this other than myself. Amén.

There's ways to go 5kts in 5kts of wind. Which is far faster than any HP contraption could do.

Or as these guys do, 10kts in 5kts. (2x wind speed. Damn.)

Is it time to start a 2021 R2AK thread yet...

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5 hours ago, IanA. said:

I think you should be wary of comparing data like for like between monos and multihulls from different years. Saying monos have won almost half of the R2AKs has to do with who is signed up. The line ups are different each year and if you are trying to win then you need to be faster then who you're racing against.

I have to speak up about the comments of luck and having no fear as this is totally incorrect. Sure you can have bad luck, and we didn't. But we also didn't have great luck and the things that we did good were because of a lot of effort and training to get to that point.

Fear is what drove us to practice, tweak and learn as much as we could so we were prepared for anything. We pushed each other as well to make sure everything was perfect. I don't know how many miles our team had togehter on that boat but it spanned from 2013 and covered a lot of different race types and locations across the US.

Also what I read here so far is most people don't truly understand how fast the M32 is in the full range of conditions(-102 PHRF). We could fly a hull upwind(TWA~45) in about 4-5 knots and hold about 9-10 knots of speed. When the wind is up and we are just on the full main only our speed was between 13-16 knots. And when we started reefing is when the boat truly powers up. Center of effort lowers while still having  stupid amount of righting moment. We had to slow down a few times in Johnstone straight because the boat wanted to 17-18 knots launching off of those stumpy waves.

I think Mad Dog is a textbook case of exactly what needs to happen in order to win the R2AK:

  1. Bring the fastest possible boat
  2. Practice so you can sail it to its potential in the full range of of conditions
  3. Pray to Jesus/Allah/Buddha/Ganesh or sell your soul as to not crash into anything in the middle of the night
  4. Hope your competitors don't do 1-3 better than you
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1 hour ago, gspot said:

I think Mad Dog is a textbook case of exactly what needs to happen in order to win the R2AK:

  1. Bring the fastest possible boat
  2. Practice so you can sail it to its potential in the full range of of conditions
  3. Pray to Jesus/Allah/Buddha/Ganesh or sell your soul as to not crash into anything in the middle of the night
  4. Hope your competitors don't do 1-3 better than you

+1

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