Race to Alaska best boat

[JanetC Gougeon32 73]

14 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Nothing if that's all you've got. Lots of Inuit kayak frames are that way.

Hmm, all those French giant multis must have it wrong then with aero drag and weight savings for their beams. 

And why don't those huge french multis have telescoping wingmasts? Why aren't they schooner rigged? 

[CWK 6]

Has anyone considered the possibility of using stored human power? 

Like a spring or a pneumatic cylinder?

I was thinking that a pneumatic device might me a lot more efficient at propelling a boat than the pedal drive is. 

Also they could temporarily push you to a higher speed to overcome something like a light patch or something. 

[ProaSailor 440]

5 hours ago, CWK said:

I was thinking that a pneumatic device might me a lot more efficient at propelling a boat than the pedal drive is. 

More efficient than direct pedal drive?  No possible way.  The idea of stored human power has merit as far as I'm concerned but I recall previous discussions of the subject ending with the conclusion that R2AK rules don't allow it.  More obvious than pneumatic would be charging a battery.

[Russell Brown 900]

Seems to me that making better pedal drive units would be the first place to start. I thought someone was producing legs with R2AK boats in mind, but not sure who it was. I still like the sprocket-on-a-stick style for sitting sideways. 

[JanetC Gougeon32 73]

I really like this. But Janet's got a way to go before she would be ready for that kind of crazy. 

 

[illan_voyager 0]

On 10/25/2020 at 6:55 PM, Russell Brown said:

Apparently a broker can deliver a boat across the border right now. Was just on a boat that came from Cortes that way.

Not to derail the thread too far but please share any details on this particular boat if you feel so inclined.  Was it the Harris 42 that previously had electric drives?  Will it be sticking around PT?

[SeaGul 86]

Missed this tread - havent read all so bare with me if this has been up already; SeaCart 30 light wind - the original SC30 has a about 15m mast with a 44m2 mainsal - the M32 has 16,8m mast with 52m2 mainsail - the M32 is basically half the weight and narrower - beam 5,54m - than the SC30 that is 6,67m wide.  So to optimize a SC30  to R2AK get a bigger mast and sails. 

[CWK 6]

22 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Missed this tread - havent read all so bare with me if this has been up already; SeaCart 30 light wind - the original SC30 has a about 15m mast with a 44m2 mainsal - the M32 has 16,8m mast with 52m2 mainsail - the M32 is basically half the weight and narrower - beam 5,54m - than the SC30 that is 6,67m wide.  So to optimize a SC30  to R2AK get a bigger mast and sails. 

That is a very interesting concept, I didn't like the idea of the M32 because it didn't have a cabin. I had not considered the possibility of using a taller rig on the SeaCart. Do you know of any multihulls in the 40 foot range that would fit that requirement and be able to beat a SeaCart? 

[SeaGul 86]

11 minutes ago, CWK said:

That is a very interesting concept, I didn't like the idea of the M32 because it didn't have a cabin. I had not considered the possibility of using a taller rig on the SeaCart. Do you know of any multihulls in the 40 foot range that would fit that requirement and be able to beat a SeaCart? 

To win the R2ak - with all the light wind challenges my guess you must closer to the M32 regarding weight/sailarea - a tri that do this will have to be extremely light built - it has to get to that Marstrom did with the SC30 (and the M32) . They mention Open 30- 40 over here and 40 ft tris - but all those are made for the ocean sailing and have relatively small rigs. In UK Buzz is sailing against a new Shuttleworth 39 tri and I think that one with a taller mast could be a good one - but its probably 2-3 times the price of a SC30. If you can get an old 40ft tri that is light  - and fit a big mast/sailplan that could be  an option. 

[JanetC Gougeon32 73]

6 hours ago, CWK said:

That is a very interesting concept, I didn't like the idea of the M32 because it didn't have a cabin. I had not considered the possibility of using a taller rig on the SeaCart. Do you know of any multihulls in the 40 foot range that would fit that requirement and be able to beat a SeaCart? 

It might be worth thinking about an ultra light deck house on a M32. I've always loved the old cat Beowulf, and it illustrates one possible solution. Since the deck house would be non structural, it could be carefully made from tortured ply (cheap) and still be quite light. Of course it could be made from premade nomex/carbon sheets using a facet design to avoid complex curves. Either way, I suspect building a deck house on an M32 would be easier than putting an M32 rig on a seacart. I've never been on an M32, but I've been on a cat which uses an M32 mast, and it's quite large. I suspect the seacart would require structural modifications to accommodate the new rig. 

[eastern motors 120]

7 hours ago, SeaGul said:

If you can get an old 40ft tri that is light  - and fit a big mast/sailplan that could be  an option. 

Isn't this a good description of multihuller's ride?  The guy from Reno with the fleet.

[SeaGul 86]

1 hour ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

 Either way, I suspect building a deck house on an M32 would be easier than putting an M32 rig on a seacart. I've never been on an M32, but I've been on a cat which uses an M32 mast, and it's quite large. I suspect the seacart would require structural modifications to accommodate the new rig. 

If you put an M32 rig on a SC30 you will get a faster SC but not as fast as an M32 - so it must be a even bigger mast - to get the same power to weight ratio as the M32. The structure of the SC30 is no problem - its made for sailing on one hull - and then its on max stability with lower forces with a taller mast. It can be an issue of how many crew - but it seems like SC30s is sailed with 4-5 crew in ocean conditions so it will hold - with waterstays it is very strong. 

[SeaGul 86]

3 minutes ago, eastern motors said:

Isn't this a good description of multihuller's ride?  The guy from Reno with the fleet.

Yes - but I guess the sailplan is made for ocean race - and should be bigger.

[mundt 235]

Super high-end mountaineering tents on carbon wings might be better than building a cuddy.  The French have sailed beachcats across oceans in that style.  If you're going that route an M32 or similar and a total of 3 or 4 mammals that are ultra-trained and ready to suffer just like alpine climbers attacking a big mountain is the way to get it done.  Read a couple good mountaineering books.  A Seacart 30 is not much roomier inside than a tent.  They are pretty powered-up without a taller mast. If you have to take six people, it's gonna take a very large multi and that will add many layers of problems to your campaign.  Again, the mountaineering analogy, small team of extremely prepared and dedicated beasts who love to suffer.  You don't see those blokes carrying a cabin up the side of a mountain.  The guys on Mad Dog set the standard, beat their record if you can.

[SeaGul 86]

one thing about the stability of M32 vs SC30 - with the racks the M32 has quite bit stability with its movable crew weight so they may be rather close - with a taller rig on the SC30. 

The inside of a SC30 is not that small - bigger than Pear Shape Racing I would believe... 

[gspot 219]

It depends if your goal is to win the race, or  set the record. I think a standard Seacart is a good bet for wining the race, but probably won’t beat Mad Dog’s record, unless it’s windy like 2015. Of course this all assumes the slim likelihood of another well-sailed M32 showing up.

[Floating Duck 120]

11 hours ago, CWK said:

Do you know of any multihulls in the 40 foot range that would fit that requirement and be able to beat a SeaCart? 

So. Why do you need to beat a SeaCart? Is a SeaCart being entered? If not, you just really need to beat whomever entered. Now, if you follow the train of thought of Randy;

On 11/1/2020 at 4:35 PM, RandyM81 said:

there are much faster boats available and if someone shows up with one of them you'll wish you had too.

You will probably be chasing the Joneses... There is always someone out there with a faster boat I promise you that. An M32 (or whatever is fast) isn't cheap. Especially if you want to bring all your mates aboard.

Plus, it's sort of a moot point anyway, as most of the years this happens;

On 10/18/2020 at 9:36 AM, D Wayne G said:

Twice I have been beaten to the finish by slower boats.

Aaaaaaanywho. Are y'all going to be doing some races in the area leading up to the R2AK? Swiftsure? Any of the semi-long distance races we have around here? There are a couple of us here in the PNW (@gspot @Russell Brown  @40Plus) that you could race against next year to see how you stack up.

[Airwick 222]

Beating the record is going to require sailing an overpowered "daysailor" out of it's design brief like the M32...

You'll never make an "ocean capable" raceboat have the same super light wind performance as an M32, even with a bigger mast... 

As for "just winning", the concept of Jungle kitty, "motorsailing" whenever the speed dropped a bit and maintaining high averages definitely has merit but probably not fast enough to beat the M32 time.

Maybe a D35 cat would be a good choice for the record? It won't be any more comfortable than the M32 (and maybe even less likely to make it) but that has to be the fastest thing in light airs no (and they do get squalls so have some track record of surviving strong winds and nasty chop)?

https://d35trophy.com/en/trophy/decision-35/

[Sidecar 1,059]

This is what you need: “Fifty Fifty”.

All carbon. Carries 6 crew as standard, and a record holder:

Base/Average Speed: 23 knots.....

[40Plus 36]

4 hours ago, mundt said:

Super high-end mountaineering tents on carbon wings might be better than building a cuddy.  The French have sailed beachcats across oceans in that style.  If you're going that route an M32 or similar and a total of 3 or 4 mammals that are ultra-trained and ready to suffer just like alpine climbers attacking a big mountain is the way to get it done.  Read a couple good mountaineering books.  A Seacart 30 is not much roomier inside than a tent.  They are pretty powered-up without a taller mast. If you have to take six people, it's gonna take a very large multi and that will add many layers of problems to your campaign.  Again, the mountaineering analogy, small team of extremely prepared and dedicated beasts who love to suffer.  You don't see those blokes carrying a cabin up the side of a mountain.  The guys on Mad Dog set the standard, beat their record if you can.

@CWK To put into perspective the Multi 50’s race with 5 for their fully crewed races, MOD 70’s take 6 on their long distance races i.e. Transatlantic, to think you can go with 6 on a multi on anything under 40’ without severely effecting it’s performance is a mistake. What Randy and the boys did on Mad Dog was amazing, having said that they had “relatively” benign conditions compared to some years. My question would be if you had a year where you have 30-35 knots  and wave conditions  that go along with it for several days how will you deal with it on a M32 or Extreme 40? I’m sure Randy had a plan for that eventuality. To me it’s a bit of a stretch to come up with the perfect boat for the R2AK, it depends on the conditions that year,  2019 we had 25+ in Johnston Strait with opposing current (the two boats behind us were hit with a 40knt micro burst)  and we had similar conditions in Hecate Strait, the waves there were nasty, I’m not sure how you would deal with that in a M32 or something similar. If you want to win and have a boat that performs really well in a variety of conditions a SC 30 is your answer, assuming you can find one and afford it. If you want to try to beat the record than there is an extreme 40 for sale in the Bay Area but you are rolling the dice in regards to the weather being in your favour for 3 days, if it turns bad you are in the shit. If you are serious about going with something like a M32 you should talk to Randy and get some first hand insight. 

[Sidecar 1,059]

@CWK

No doubt in my mind that a SeaCart 30 is the best “off the shelf”, offshore proven choice with one of the the best all round risk vs performance profiles.

If you can find one, you should get on with your campaign ASAP, you have lots to do, practice and learn.....

And you will also have a boat with pretty good resale value afterwards if you don’t want to keep it, especially if you do well in it and don’t hit any logs or deadheads on the way.

[mundt 235]

Right now it's blowing 25+ out front. I was down tidying up my boats and watching the kiters shredding the Point.  If you were out there right now on any light multi you would be very challenged, more so if the water was extremely cold.  One mistake and you're a few minutes away from a permanent hypothermic nap.  With 100s of hours of practice these conditions can be "fun" but look what Alex Honnold calls "fun," I shit myself just looking at pictures.  Think you could turn the boat around and go pluck a soaking body out of the water in those conditions?  Next time you're doing 20+ kts. downwind in big waves throw a floaty off the back and then see what it's like when you turn around and try to go back, the view alone will be quite an eye opener.  Flip over in big waves and extremely cold water, especially at 2 a.m. and you'll just have a few minutes to review things before nighty night.  The guys on Mad Dog had the advantage of S.F. Bay which can certainly simulate "worst case scenarios."  Get a fast boat and practice your asses off in every possible condition, especially pushing hard at night in super light and super heavy air.

[40Plus 36]

23 minutes ago, mundt said:

Right now it's blowing 25+ out front. I was down tidying up my boats and watching the kiters shredding the Point.  If you were out there right now on any light multi you would be very challenged, more so if the water was extremely cold.  One mistake and you're a few minutes away from a permanent hypothermic nap.  With 100s of hours of practice these conditions can be "fun" but look what Alex Honnold calls "fun," I shit myself just looking at pictures.  Think you could turn the boat around and go pluck a soaking body out of the water in those conditions?  Next time you're doing 20+ kts. downwind in big waves throw a floaty off the back and then see what it's like when you turn around and try to go back, the view alone will be quite an eye opener.  Flip over in big waves and extremely cold water, especially at 2 a.m. and you'll just have a few minutes to review things before nighty night.  The guys on Mad Dog had the advantage of S.F. Bay which can certainly simulate "worst case scenarios."  Get a fast boat and practice your asses off in every possible condition, especially pushing hard at night in super light and super heavy air.

Spot on! 

[Raz'r 3,803]

Multihuler’s flying SL33 could be your ticket if you’re a gambler

[harryproa 7]

On 11/3/2020 at 9:29 AM, Zonker said:

Nothing if that's all you've got. Lots of Inuit kayak frames are that way.

Indeed.  Fortunately, we have got considerably more.  Tested a 1/5th lee hull truss this week. Weighed about 9 kgs.   Loaded it with 500 kgs/half a ton, it deflected 7mm/0.28".  Pics on https://www.facebook.com/Harryproa/?ref=page_internal tomorrow

On 11/3/2020 at 9:29 AM, Zonker said:

Hmm, all those French giant multis must have it wrong then with aero drag and weight savings for their beams. 

If your approach is to not try something because the top guys don't do it, then you are destined to follow the herd.  Nothing wrong with that, but I get my jollies from trying new stuff.  

If the French multis had a beam that was 1.2m/4' deep at one end, and taking all the transverse load of the rig, they might look differently at trusses.  That is, assuming they could figure out how to join them without heavy, unreliable, draggy joining plates and how to attach them to the hulls. 

Then again, maybe they wouldn't as they have multi million dollar budgets,  huge skills in building things the way they do and a long history of small, incremental, conservative changes.

On 11/3/2020 at 9:47 AM, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

And why don't those huge french multis have telescoping wingmasts? Why aren't they schooner rigged? 

Some people start from "This is what everybody does, I will follow along".  These people mostly own old designs which they pour their time and money into, or new designs which are similar to the rest. 

I start from "What is required? What are the constraints?  How can I get around them?"     

The requirement for light air is sail area up high where there is more wind in light air than near the surface.  Read Frank Bethwaite to see why this is so.  The constraints? Sail area up high means early reefing, windage and weight in the worst possible place.  The solution? A telescoping rig.  There are others, but this is the most elegant I know of.    A telescoping mast would suit a single rig on a race boat.  The schooner makes more sense for lower stress sailing.  

Why don't the French use them?  No idea, but probably all or some of the following:

Their boats have high bows, (with the associated windage, weight and danger), so they don't mind going out there to set extras, even though most of the sail area set from here is in the low wind near the surface.  

They accept the weight and cost penalty of carrying extra sails, only two of which can be used at any time. 

They accept the added cost, weight, reinforcing, deck gear and effort these sails require.    

To get these sails to work properly requires huge loads on the forestays, runners and main sheet plus hulls and gear big enough to take the loads.  In such a scenario, making a stayed rig telescope is difficult, if not impossible. 

They have a sensible, make haste slowly approach, often reinforced by rules designed to stop anyone doing anything different. 

They are hugely skilled, super fit, know their boats inside out and have support teams to maintain them.  The benefits of low stress, easy sailing are not high on their requirements, although perhaps they should be.  

Or maybe it is the same attitude that enables them to sail without being able to see 50% of the water ahead due to low cut headsails, or to have dagger boards that end the race when they hit something at speed?  

Whatever, it is, it is not particularly appropriate to a bunch of neophyte kids trying to attract sponsorship and win a race where the general opinion is light, long,  high, easily sailed and collision tolerant are the prime requirements.    Unless their parents or other contacts are wealthy and/or well connected, they have near zero chance of getting someone to buy or give them a boat for the race, which makes the advice on which boat to race  interesting, but premature.  They would increase their odds significantly if they a) started building so they could demonstrate they are serious and committed and b) chose a radical boat which will get attention.   The simple to build Harryproa option I suggested would do both and if they are as good as they think they are, would give them something to work on over the winter, and a realistic chance of winning.  

Or they can go with the witty name and chatty web site and see if they can find someone to give them a couple of hundred grand to enter a hard race way beyond any of their collective experience.  

Instead of asking silly questions, why don't you guys analyse the boat, and point out where and why you think it is not suitable?  Then we can discuss it and improve the offering and see if we can get CKW in next year's race.

[JanetC Gougeon32 73]

You built a bucket list, and it's quite telling you didn't race it yourself.. 

[gspot 219]

12 hours ago, harryproa said:

Instead of asking silly questions, why don't you guys analyse the boat, and point out where and why you think it is not suitable?  Then we can discuss it and improve the offering and see if we can get CKW in next year's race.

I've never sailed a proa, but I do know from sailing "regular" monohulls and multihulls that in adverse conditions, you are most likely to lose control of the boat when the underwater foils are moving slowly or stop moving altogether. 

Johnstone Strait is the only place I've ever been where I've literally had breaking waves coming at me from every direction - there's an unusual surface ebb that persists while the deeper waters flood, and the surface ebb is against the prevailing summer winds, creating very confused seas.

Putting these two things together, how would you reliably keep the boat under control while shunting up Johnstone Strait, where you have to stop the boat each time you change direction? Wouldn't you be spun in circles by the confused seas and wind over current situation? And there's not much room to recover before your next shunt... 

[gspot 219]

19 hours ago, Airwick said:

Beating the record is going to require sailing an overpowered "daysailor" out of it's design brief like the M32...

You'll never make an "ocean capable" raceboat have the same super light wind performance as an M32, even with a bigger mast... 

As for "just winning", the concept of Jungle kitty, "motorsailing" whenever the speed dropped a bit and maintaining high averages definitely has merit but probably not fast enough to beat the M32 time.

Maybe a D35 cat would be a good choice for the record? It won't be any more comfortable than the M32 (and maybe even less likely to make it) but that has to be the fastest thing in light airs no (and they do get squalls so have some track record of surviving strong winds and nasty chop)?

https://d35trophy.com/en/trophy/decision-35/

The specs for that D35 are insane!!! 

Hull Length : 10.81m
Length Overall LOA : 14.95m
Width of Hull : 6.89m
Overall Width : 8.74m
Dry weight : 1200kg
Main Sail Area : 81.6m2
Jib Area : 21m2
Solent Area : 40.7m2
Genoa : 70.8m2
Reacher : 131.1m2
Crew : 5 (minimum)
Crew weight : 456kg (maximum)

Heavier than the M32 but much more sail area.

Boat weight: 510 kg (1,120 lb)
Hull weight: 82 kg (181 lb) each
Total sail area: 113 m2 (1,220 sq ft)
Mainsail area: 52 m2 (560 sq ft)
Mast length: 16.8 m (55 ft)
Gennaker area: 61 m2 (660 sq ft)

[SeaGul 86]

1 hour ago, gspot said:

The specs for that D35 are insane!!! 

Hull Length : 10.81m
Length Overall LOA : 14.95m
Width of Hull : 6.89m
Overall Width : 8.74m
Dry weight : 1200kg
Main Sail Area : 81.6m2
Jib Area : 21m2
Solent Area : 40.7m2
Genoa : 70.8m2
Reacher : 131.1m2
Crew : 5 (minimum)
Crew weight : 456kg (maximum)

Heavier than the M32 but much more sail area.

Boat weight: 510 kg (1,120 lb)
Hull weight: 82 kg (181 lb) each
Total sail area: 113 m2 (1,220 sq ft)
Mainsail area: 52 m2 (560 sq ft)
Mast length: 16.8 m (55 ft)
Gennaker area: 61 m2 (660 sq ft)

Comparable upwind;  M32113m2 510 kg + 3 crew = 280kg total 790kg    vs D35 153 m2 1200kg + 456kg crew is total 1656kg  - more than double weight with 40% bigger sails? And the price of this D25 must be astronomic. A M32 is for sale at the moment for about 200T USD - a SC30 can be had for 50T USD less - then add the bigger mast and sail   - same price as the M32 - and I would say a better boat for the R2AK. But to take 6 crew - you need bigger boats. For 6 I would get a turbo on the Antrim 40... 

[Sidecar 1,059]

3 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Comparable upwind;  M32113m2 510 kg + 3 crew = 280kg total 790kg    vs D35 153 m2 1200kg + 456kg crew is total 1656kg  - more than double weight with 40% bigger sails? And the price of this D25 must be astronomic. A M32 is for sale at the moment for about 200T USD - a SC30 can be had for 50T USD less - then add the bigger mast and sail   - same price as the M32 - and I would say a better boat for the R2AK. But to take 6 crew - you need bigger boats. For 6 I would get a turbo on the Antrim 40... 

You forgot the 1.13 extra LWL.

Base/Average Speeds (white SA, all up SA respectively):

M32: 13.5 knots, 15.7 knots

D35: 14.7 knots, 19.4 knots

The speed differential comes from the D35’s superior SA/Displ ratios, which are not linear.

M32 does have a superior LWL/Displ ratio despite D35’s extra 1.13 metres LWL which is also not linear.

Difficult to imagine any team coming up with a boat as fast or faster than an M32, prepared and sailed so well in equal or better conditions all in the same race and beat Mad Dog’s effort.

[JanetC Gougeon32 73]

47 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

You forgot the 1.13 extra LWL.

Base/Average Speeds (white SA, all up SA respectively):

M32: 13.5 knots, 15.7 knots

D35: 14.7 knots, 19.4 knots

The speed differential comes from the D35’s superior SA/Displ ratios, which are not linear.

M32 does have a superior LWL/Displ ratio despite D35’s extra 1.13 metres LWL.

Hard to believe "Alinghi"  a 40' catamaran with water ballast which was faster than the D35. The 40' cat design has to be ancient and yet it's still one if the fastest 40' multis ever built. 

[Sidecar 1,059]

7 minutes ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

Hard to believe Artemis has a 40' catamaran with water ballast which was faster than the D35. The 40' cat design has to be ancient and yet it's still one if the fastest 40' multis ever built. 

I am not familiar with it, but, the basic parameters of LWL, SA and Displ don’t change with time, and of the 3 parameters, LWL has the greatest bearing on average and top speed. The extra 5 ft must come in handy......

Give me some numbers and I will get a Speed for you....

[JanetC Gougeon32 73]

11 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

I am not familiar with it, but, the basic parameters of LWL, SA and Displ don’t change with time, and of the 3 parameters, LWL has the greatest bearing on average and top speed. The extra 5 ft must come in handy......

Give me some numbers and I will get a Speed for you....

http://www.sebschmidt.ch/portfolio/99143/article/99143_article_Seahorse_Aug2000.pdf

What a monster.  

[Sidecar 1,059]

15 minutes ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said:

http://www.sebschmidt.ch/portfolio/99143/article/99143_article_Seahorse_Aug2000.pdf

What a monster.  

It is..... with 5 crew as per D35:

~ 18.4 knots and 21.8 knots respectively as above.

[JanetC Gougeon32 73]

2 hours ago, Sidecar said:

It is..... with 5 crew as per D35:

~ 18.4 knots and 21.8 knots respectively as above.

It takes a crew of 6 and can pump 350 liters of water in the windward hull.  The boat can fly a hull in 4 TWS, and only needs 3.5 degrees of heel to get the WW hull out of the water. 

 

"Monster I" 

She whispers in my ear. I forgot how crazy "the black cat" really was. 

 

 

[Sidecar 1,059]

With a crew of 6 ( D35 pro rata’d), Base/Average Speeds are:

18.1 knots and 21.6 knots respectively.

No point in reworking with added water ballast, because Base/Average Speed only calculates with weight carried 100% of time and therefore make it slower.

Just remember this is all theoretical, flat water, ball park stuff.

[CWK 6]

22 hours ago, harryproa said:

Indeed.  Fortunately, we have got considerably more.  Tested a 1/5th lee hull truss this week. Weighed about 9 kgs.   Loaded it with 500 kgs/half a ton, it deflected 7mm/0.28".  Pics on https://www.facebook.com/Harryproa/?ref=page_internal tomorrow

If your approach is to not try something because the top guys don't do it, then you are destined to follow the herd.  Nothing wrong with that, but I get my jollies from trying new stuff.  

If the French multis had a beam that was 1.2m/4' deep at one end, and taking all the transverse load of the rig, they might look differently at trusses.  That is, assuming they could figure out how to join them without heavy, unreliable, draggy joining plates and how to attach them to the hulls. 

Then again, maybe they wouldn't as they have multi million dollar budgets,  huge skills in building things the way they do and a long history of small, incremental, conservative changes.

Some people start from "This is what everybody does, I will follow along".  These people mostly own old designs which they pour their time and money into, or new designs which are similar to the rest. 

I start from "What is required? What are the constraints?  How can I get around them?"     

The requirement for light air is sail area up high where there is more wind in light air than near the surface.  Read Frank Bethwaite to see why this is so.  The constraints? Sail area up high means early reefing, windage and weight in the worst possible place.  The solution? A telescoping rig.  There are others, but this is the most elegant I know of.    A telescoping mast would suit a single rig on a race boat.  The schooner makes more sense for lower stress sailing.  

Why don't the French use them?  No idea, but probably all or some of the following:

Their boats have high bows, (with the associated windage, weight and danger), so they don't mind going out there to set extras, even though most of the sail area set from here is in the low wind near the surface.  

They accept the weight and cost penalty of carrying extra sails, only two of which can be used at any time. 

They accept the added cost, weight, reinforcing, deck gear and effort these sails require.    

To get these sails to work properly requires huge loads on the forestays, runners and main sheet plus hulls and gear big enough to take the loads.  In such a scenario, making a stayed rig telescope is difficult, if not impossible. 

They have a sensible, make haste slowly approach, often reinforced by rules designed to stop anyone doing anything different. 

They are hugely skilled, super fit, know their boats inside out and have support teams to maintain them.  The benefits of low stress, easy sailing are not high on their requirements, although perhaps they should be.  

Or maybe it is the same attitude that enables them to sail without being able to see 50% of the water ahead due to low cut headsails, or to have dagger boards that end the race when they hit something at speed?  

Whatever, it is, it is not particularly appropriate to a bunch of neophyte kids trying to attract sponsorship and win a race where the general opinion is light, long,  high, easily sailed and collision tolerant are the prime requirements.    Unless their parents or other contacts are wealthy and/or well connected, they have near zero chance of getting someone to buy or give them a boat for the race, which makes the advice on which boat to race  interesting, but premature.  They would increase their odds significantly if they a) started building so they could demonstrate they are serious and committed and b) chose a radical boat which will get attention.   The simple to build Harryproa option I suggested would do both and if they are as good as they think they are, would give them something to work on over the winter, and a realistic chance of winning.  

Or they can go with the witty name and chatty web site and see if they can find someone to give them a couple of hundred grand to enter a hard race way beyond any of their collective experience.  

Instead of asking silly questions, why don't you guys analyse the boat, and point out where and why you think it is not suitable?  Then we can discuss it and improve the offering and see if we can get CKW in next year's race.

If you are going to insult me at least use proper punctuation, and for god sakes spell my three letter name right. 

[CWK 6]

Oh don't get me wrong the D35 would be an absolute monster on this course. But I am not shooting for a course record here, Im just looking for a shot at the top. I don't have the experience to sail a boat like that on the limit with nowhere to sleep. Around the buoys, you bet! But nothing like this. 

 

The reason I brought up the Seacart is because I could not find a faster boat in that size range that could fit the requirements. One of our crew members is a racer on Morticia and recommended the Seacart as a prime boat for this race. That was before we wanted to take six people. 

[SeaGul 86]

One point from Randy; the reason the M32 is such a weapon is that with its superior weight/sailarea ratio it can sail almost whatever the conditions - all others becalmed and using "engine" it can still do 4-5kn  - and its basically very simple - and relatively affordable compare to some others mentioned. Heres a tool to play with for crew of 6 https://no.yachtworld.com/baater/2002/trimaran-multi-50-2381991/ 

[oldsurfer 62]

400 sq. ft. sail area, 900 lbs dry weight, pressure sensitive retractable centerboard and rudder and two tiny coffin cabins. Working on pedal drive system.

[SSolo 154]

for lightweight high performanceperformance - look at a  F28, they have minimal accommodation (can squeeze 2 at least down below) BIG power weight ratio. My F28 cat (Charleston - sold her to to NZ) weight around 500Kg ready to race, BIG rig massive 10ft racks and lots of fun :-)
and we sailed her 2 up!

[F18 Sailor 297]

8 hours ago, SeaGul said:

One point from Randy; the reason the M32 is such a weapon is that with its superior weight/sailarea ratio it can sail almost whatever the conditions - all others becalmed and using "engine" it can still do 4-5kn  - and its basically very simple - and relatively affordable compare to some others mentioned. Heres a tool to play with for crew of 6 https://no.yachtworld.com/baater/2002/trimaran-multi-50-2381991/ 

That boat has been for sale for quite some time. It looks very tired, and quite dated for a multihull design.

[RandyM81 73]

15 hours ago, CWK said:

Oh don't get me wrong the D35 would be an absolute monster on this course. But I am not shooting for a course record here, Im just looking for a shot at the top. I don't have the experience to sail a boat like that on the limit with nowhere to sleep. Around the buoys, you bet! But nothing like this. 

 

The reason I brought up the Seacart is because I could not find a faster boat in that size range that could fit the requirements. One of our crew members is a racer on Morticia and recommended the Seacart as a prime boat for this race. That was before we wanted to take six people. 

So have you made any decisions? Are you still planning on racing with six on one boat?

The Seacart looks very suitable for 3 maybe 4. Ocelot would be a good choice for a team of 6 if you're not trying for the record. Plan on doing a lot of pedaling.

Btw, are you buying or borrowing/chartering a boat? (You're not building a boat unless you started a year ago or are aiming for 2022). What's your budget?

I'm sure you already feel this, but unless you go with a boat that's already well sorted for the task you don't have a lot of time to get organized and ready (especially if anyone has a day job). I encourage you to get your boat and get on the water asap.

I'm bummed you're not aiming for the record. I'm trying to get motivated for another go!

[D Wayne G 155]

45 minutes ago, RandyM81 said:

So have you made any decisions? Are you still planning on racing with six on one boat?

The Seacart looks very suitable for 3 maybe 4. Ocelot would be a good choice for a team of 6 if you're not trying for the record. Plan on doing a lot of pedaling.

Btw, are you buying or borrowing/chartering a boat? (You're not building a boat unless you started a year ago or are aiming for 2022). What's your budget?

I'm sure you already feel this, but unless you go with a boat that's already well sorted for the task you don't have a lot of time to get organized and ready (especially if anyone has a day job). I encourage you to get your boat and get on the water asap.

I'm bummed you're not aiming for the record. I'm trying to get motivated for another go!

Did you sell Mama Tried Randy? What do you have now?

[gspot 219]

51 minutes ago, RandyM81 said:

I'm sure you already feel this, but unless you go with a boat that's already well sorted for the task you don't have a lot of time to get organized and ready (especially if anyone has a day job). I encourage you to get your boat and get on the water asap.

^^^This^^^

Personally I'd prefer to spend at least a year with the boat before attempting a race like the R2AK, using longer events like Swiftsure, Patos,, Southern Straits as practice events.  

This could be accelerated somewhat if I didn't have a full-time job. 

[CWK 6]

Right now Im in contact with a few people around here that could lead to several different options. For this time around, my first R2AK we are looking at the Schock or an XS 35. I know the XS is faster, but we have a much easier logistical time with the Schock and it is more at home with the crews experience.  For the Cat we would take just four people. 

 

I will be looking to break the record in the future, but right now I just want to be competitive. 

[CWK 6]

Also there are a few tris that look promising for taking just four people.  

But right now that is mostly determined by who I can figure out for sponsors. 

[RandyM81 73]

2 hours ago, D Wayne G said:

Did you sell Mama Tried Randy? What do you have now?

Work and Covid pretty much squashed all my sailing plans for this year so I recently donated Mama Tried to the Skiff Sailing Foundation.  Starting to dream about what's next, but no decisions.

[gspot 219]

2 hours ago, CWK said:

Right now Im in contact with a few people around here that could lead to several different options. For this time around, my first R2AK we are looking at the Schock or an XS 35. I know the XS is faster, but we have a much easier logistical time with the Schock and it is more at home with the crews experience.  For the Cat we would take just four people. 

Interesting that the XS 35 (basically a modified R 33) hasn't come up in this discussion yet - I think that would be another great contender!

Last I spoke to Randy Reynolds (about a year ago) he had one of each on hand - one with a 14' beam and one with a 16' beam. He would even help deliver to the PNW. 

They were relatively inexpensive as well, and probably the best bang for the buck on the West Coast in terms of performance. 

[D Wayne G 155]

52 minutes ago, RandyM81 said:

Work and Covid pretty much squashed all my sailing plans for this year so I recently donated Mama Tried to the Skiff Sailing Foundation.  Starting to dream about what's next, but no decisions.

Thanks Randy. Let’s see if anyone on this forum connects those dots.

[CWK 6]

1 minute ago, D Wayne G said:

Thanks Randy. Let’s see if anyone on this forum connects those dots.

Ive already submitted a proposal to them, just waiting for the reply!

[D Wayne G 155]

4 minutes ago, CWK said:

Ive already submitted a proposal to them, just waiting for the reply!

Great boat FOR THREE.

[CWK 6]

2 minutes ago, D Wayne G said:

Great boat FOR THREE.

Yeah they have a few others in store as well. Im open to whatever I can get my hands on if it rates negative.  

[mundt 235]

The XS 35 is a gorgeous boat and could easily be near the front of the pack.  Should be relatively easy to move with human power too.  A standard R33 can be just as fast in the right hands though the wider beam adds a safety margin for sure.  A key factor with those boats is to have and know how and when to use a wide variety of headsails.  And again, a lot of practice in all conditions.  From my own experience, Mama Tried as well as a Seacart and some turboed F-boats like Redshift and other tris can all sail at similar speeds depending on the conditions.  On the R33 or XS 35 carrying gear/supplies for an extended trip, 4 people would be as heavy a load as you would want. The cabins would be packed pretty tight, only room for 1 maybe 2 people to be inside at a time, which is fine cuz you'll want 2 to 3 on deck to run the boat.  The cabins will keep you fairly warm and dry and when you're flying that hull, if you trust your mates it's a pretty peaceful ride.  We hit a large soft object at night off of Baja going about 15 kts. one night on a 33 and the poor bloke who was resting below came up outta there with a great deal of cursing and consternation.

[Monkey 1,549]

1 hour ago, D Wayne G said:

Great boat FOR THREE.

That’s how he plans to keep the boat light. Start with 4, cast lots and eat one on day 2. Multihull sailors are weird. 

[Autonomous 474]

16 minutes ago, Monkey said:

That’s how he plans to keep the boat light. Start with 4, cast lots and eat one on day 2. Multihull sailors are weird. 

If you bring a particularly tasty girl you can eat her the whole way.

[Sidecar 1,059]

4 hours ago, RandyM81 said:

Work and Covid pretty much squashed all my sailing plans for this year so I recently donated Mama Tried to the Skiff Sailing Foundation.  Starting to dream about what's next, but no decisions.

When you say you “donated” Mama Tried, was it given away or just lent? Either way, well done you, a great gesture......

You should have another crack at R2AK and go for the record of being (at least) the first one to win it twice. To break the elapsed time record as well would be a less likely weather dependent bonus......

Go for it Randy!

 

[SeaGul 86]

About R33 - we have one local and they dont like  too much wind, its difficult to balance them on the edge - its 16ft but dont seem to be any faster than the tris that have been in the contest. They are too heavy and is nowhere near the M32 or the SC30. One thing with those cats  - compared to tris; following the M32 series - its rather often they get stuck in the irons -even with a total professional crew -  a trimaran dont have this problem its more forgiving - and have the sheltered space you need in R2AK. Also for trimming in "no wind" conditions - some can be balanced on one hull to get minimum wetted surface. 

[Paranda 61]

Still think an f32src would be the perfect choise

Extreme good light weather performance , easily 1,5 windspeed 

Extreme tall rig

More than adeqate wx protection inside

(Texel rated) weight 1395 kg ,so pedal pwr is an option

wish I was 20 years younger...

 

[multihuler 224]

22 hours ago, oldsurfer said:

400 sq. ft. sail area, 900 lbs dry weight, pressure sensitive retractable centerboard and rudder and two tiny coffin cabins. Working on pedal drive system.

Mortals will never understand 

[mundt 235]

The thread started with the OP presenting himself as being ready, willing and able to pull the trigger on a Seacart.  Is the reality that he can't afford a circa 1970 Hobie 14?  If the plan is to go find sponsors to buy you a boat and then start actually preparing to race you best hurry up and find them deep pockets, sonny.

[gspot 219]

7 hours ago, Paranda said:

Still think an f32src would be the perfect choice

A huge benefit of the Farrier models is trailerability - they are easy to splash in different venues without having to do an on-the-water delivery or spend a day assembling.

That also makes it much easier to get back from Ketchikan than some of the other options.

[D Wayne G 155]

7 hours ago, Paranda said:

Still think an f32src would be the perfect choise

Extreme good light weather performance , easily 1,5 windspeed 

Extreme tall rig

More than adeqate wx protection inside

(Texel rated) weight 1395 kg ,so pedal pwr is an option

wish I was 20 years younger...

 

Agree. F32SR would be a serious contender. None nearby for sale as far as I know.

[D Wayne G 155]

1 hour ago, multihuler said:

Hell, go big or go home,  you can buy a Million dollar AC45 for under $75k, a crew of 6 is perfect

Perrrrfect. An easy transition from a Moth!

[JanetC Gougeon32 73]

3 hours ago, multihuler said:

Hell, go big or go home,  you can buy a Million dollar AC45 for under $75k, a crew of 6 is perfect

Good god is there an AC45 in Reno Nevada? 

[Russell Brown 900]

It does get a bit wild around here sometimes.This was day before yesterday in the Rogue the County race and the photos don't really do it justice. I've seen more wind in the R2AK and it seems like anybody wanting to go for the cash should be ready for stuff like this. I needed to bear off and was too chicken after going upwind in it for most of the day. This was with about 100 sq ft of mainsail only.

[Raz'r 3,803]

4 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

It does get a bit wild around here sometimes.This was day before yesterday in the Rogue the County race and the photos don't really do it justice. I've seen more wind in the R2AK and it seems like anybody wanting to go for the cash should be ready for stuff like this. I needed to bear off and was too chicken after going upwind in it for most of the day. This was with about 100 sq ft of mainsail only

that looks cold.how'd she do?

[Zonker 3,491]

To match "what is best boat" question
 

Conan the Barbarian (1982)

Warlord: "What is best in life?" 

Warrior: "The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair"

Warlord: "WRONG! Conan, what is best in life?"

Conan: "To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women." ... 

 

 

[40Plus 36]

23 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

It does get a bit wild around here sometimes.This was day before yesterday in the Rogue the County race and the photos don't really do it justice. I've seen more wind in the R2AK and it seems like anybody wanting to go for the cash should be ready for stuff like this. I needed to bear off and was too chicken after going upwind in it for most of the day. This was with about 100 sq ft of mainsail only.

Yup, makes PERFECT sense to enter in an AC 45! 

[Sidecar 1,059]

56 minutes ago, multihuler said:

PS,  life and the Race to Alaska is not about the destination, it is about the journey. 

For me, the race would be the delivery trip for the return journey..... Sights and experiences on the way up to Ketchikan would be a bonus.... I would take all summer and some of autumn to get back to Pt Townsend....... And then go skiing.

[Russell Brown 900]

Not sure about the skiing, but agree with the rest wholeheartedly. 

I reduced those photos too much I think, so I'm gonna try one at a higher resolution. 

[guerdon 167]

Russell, thanks for starting my day off with speed.  Aloha, Guerdon.

[eric1207 189]

Nice picture Russell, especially with 6 feet of fresh snow on the top of Mt Baker!  The color variety and action of the water and texture of the spray and foam is really cool.  What doesn't show is how cold it was that day.  Brrrr. 

[gspot 219]

15 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

It does get a bit wild around here sometimes. I've seen more wind in the R2AK and it seems like anybody wanting to go for the cash should be ready for stuff like this.

Awesome pics Russell - totally agree!

This is one of my favourite pictures from the first R2AK:

We were in Johnstone Strait that same day as part of the Van Isle 360 - Elsie Piddock was in front of us and Por Favor just behind. 

Here's the view from my monohull:

There has been a lot of talk of light air, but you also need to expect 35+ knots at times.

[D Wayne G 155]

Ahhhh, the start of “the race for the steak knives”. There were times on that race that we were convinced we should be racing for the spoons!  In the end it was a rowing race for the final few hours. John and I  are good friends. He was rowing to the finish with one of my oars on board having lost one on the first night. That’s what I really love about this race. We shared the steak knives with them.

[Sidecar 1,059]

2 hours ago, gspot said:

There has been a lot of talk of light air, but you also need to expect 35+ knots at times

 It is a race of parts..... You know you are going to get calms somewhere along the way, and you know that Johnstone Straits, more often than not will blow. Fanny Island wind speed dial seems to be stuck on W 20+ knots ......And then there are tide/current against wind maelstroms to go with it.

Elsie Piddock in the first race showed the value of having a plan and being able to adapt as well. They killed themselves in the Georgia Strait calms to get through the Seymour Narrows tidal gate well ahead and had enough time to rest up up in Otter Cove before going round Chatham Point to face the blast....

[D Wayne G 155]

1 hour ago, Sidecar said:

 It is a race of parts..... You know you are going to get calms somewhere along the way, and you know that Johnstone Straits, more often than not will blow. Fanny Island wind speed dial seems to be stuck on W 20+ knots ......And then there are tide/current against wind maelstroms to go with it.

Elsie Piddock in the first race showed the value of having a plan and being able to adapt as well. They killed themselves in the Georgia Strait calms to get through the Seymour Narrows tidal gate well ahead and had enough time to rest up up in Otter Cove before going round Chatham Point to face the blast....

 

1 hour ago, Sidecar said:

 It is a race of parts..... You know you are going to get calms somewhere along the way, and you know that Johnstone Straits, more often than not will blow. Fanny Island wind speed dial seems to be stuck on W 20+ knots ......And then there are tide/current against wind maelstroms to go with it.

Elsie Piddock in the first race showed the value of having a plan and being able to adapt as well. They killed themselves in the Georgia Strait calms to get through the Seymour Narrows tidal gate well ahead and had enough time to rest up up in Otter Cove before going round Chatham Point to face the blast....

Actually,  it was anything but calm in Georgia Straight for most of the first night. They sailed a flawless first night, made the gate at Seymour Narrows and the rest is history.

[Russell Brown 900]

10 hours ago, eric1207 said:

Nice picture Russell, especially with 6 feet of fresh snow on the top of Mt Baker!  The color variety and action of the water and texture of the spray and foam is really cool.  What doesn't show is how cold it was that day.  Brrrr. 

Both my thumbs and one of my toes are really screwed up. Can't get near hot water right now. Had trench foot after the 2'nd R2AK. Not pleasant at all. Sure would like to see more photos of last weekend. Sean Trew took beautiful photos as usual, but didn't venture out into the wild either day. He's driven his Boston Whaler completely underwater chasing this race and I think he's backed off a bit.

[eric1207 189]

 

23 minutes ago, Russell Brown said:

 He's driven his Boston Whaler completely underwater chasing this race and I think he's backed off a bit.

Green water over the bow of a Boston Whaler!  Haven't done that since I was a teenager but that was on warm Lk Washington.

[harryproa 7]

On 11/9/2020 at 2:59 AM, gspot said:

I've never sailed a proa, but I do know from sailing "regular" monohulls and multihulls that in adverse conditions, you are most likely to lose control of the boat when the underwater foils are moving slowly or stop moving altogether. 

Johnstone Strait is the only place I've ever been where I've literally had breaking waves coming at me from every direction - there's an unusual surface ebb that persists while the deeper waters flood, and the surface ebb is against the prevailing summer winds, creating very confused seas.

Putting these two things together, how would you reliably keep the boat under control while shunting up Johnstone Strait, where you have to stop the boat each time you change direction? Wouldn't you be spun in circles by the confused seas and wind over current situation? And there's not much room to recover before your next shunt... 

A sensible, relevant, boat related question!  Thanks.

I have not sailed in Johnstone Straits, so cannot give a definitive answer.  The features of a harryproa that may help are:

The rudders are large (they also act as daggerboards) and mounted fore and aft, so there is a lot of low speed steering force available and no stalling daggerboard to add drag.  The rudders are side mounted on the lee hull so they are visible, which helps the helmsman know when the flow over them stalls or attaches.  Side mounting also allows them to kick up in a collision.

The unstayed rig will rotate through 360 degrees, so the boat could be sailed with the wind on the 'wrong' side, in an emergency, and carefully.  It can also be totally depowered (weathercocking) if required or while you wait for the boat to spin around to a better angle.

Shunting is quick, if the boat is set up for it with automatically rotating rudders, low weight (so it stops and starts quickly), no headsails, variable load sheeting (1:1 or 1:2 for 90% of the shunt, then whatever is required for normal sailing) and crew prepared to move fore/aft and inboard/outboard to assist steering.  I have solo shunted  a 10m/35'ter in 8 seconds, from releasing the sheet to flow attached on the rudders going the other direction.  

However, it does still stop, and this is the worrying time.  If the conditions were diabolical I would sail onto a reach and slow down to just have steerage way before shunting.  This minimises the load on the sheet, the distance the boom has to travel and the boat's inertia.  The stopped time would be a couple of seconds and the range for getting head to wind then backwinded is 90 degrees in each direction.  Based on many hours offshore racing a turbo'd sistership to Nice Pair, I feel a lot safer and more in control shunting a proa in scary conditions than tacking the cat.  

All of which is nothing if you don't get out there and practice.  Race prep is key.  If it was me, this would include a few days spent sailing back and forth through the Narrows in increasingly worsening conditions and sailing up to Ketchikan and back.  This is a much better use of time than a glossy paint job (apart from the wet bits),  publicity videos/blogs and 'practicing' in benign conditions.

CWK,

A couple of things to think about: 

1) Whether you agree with my boat suggestion or not, I am one of the few people here who actually suggested a way to achieve your object.  So, why would I 'insult' you?  Could it be that you misunderstood what I said?  Regardless, my apologies for whatever it was that upset you.

2) Potential sponsors/donors may read your posts.  Seeing you answer a boat suggestion with a punctuation complaint and invoking your diety about a typo might make them wonder how you are going to handle the pressure during the race and whether your focus is likely to be in the correct place.  

Can you explain why my suggestion would not help you achieve your aims of winning and sponsorship?   

I did not know about The Skiff Sailing Foundation, or that they have Mama Tried available.  Good luck with your application.  

Janet,

If me not racing Bucket List  "tells us" anything, it is that I am not willing to race a novel boat unless it is 100% ready to race.  This is based on 60 odd years of racing including 12 and 18' skiffs, 7 Sydney Hobarts (one on a 12m trimaran, one as watch captain on a RTW maxi), race record and the double in the Brisbane Gladstone on a 38' cat, a season as boat nigel on a Spanish Admirals Cupper, selection for  Aus and NZ in the Clipper and Southern Cross Cups, capsizing a 35' race cat in the North Atlantic, etc.  

It also "tells us" that I preferred to spend my Bucket List time trying new ideas (foiling, triscarphs, kite power, and novel rigs, steering and build methods) rather than optimising and tweaking a race boat to prove what I already knew; a half ton/tonne 40'ter with 60 sq m/630 sq' of sail area would be pretty quick.  

Instead of giving me a hard time about this, maybe tell us why you think Bucket List, or, better, the proposed R2A boat would not do the job?  Maybe also,  based on your racing, building and sponsor getting experience,  whether you think CWK building one will get him a boat and a sponsor quicker than writing begging letters?

[JanetC Gougeon32 73]

13 hours ago, harryproa said:

A sensible, relevant, boat related question!  Thanks.

I have not sailed in Johnstone Straits, so cannot give a definitive answer.  The features of a harryproa that may help are:

The rudders are large (they also act as daggerboards) and mounted fore and aft, so there is a lot of low speed steering force available and no stalling daggerboard to add drag.  The rudders are side mounted on the lee hull so they are visible, which helps the helmsman know when the flow over them stalls or attaches.  Side mounting also allows them to kick up in a collision.

The unstayed rig will rotate through 360 degrees, so the boat could be sailed with the wind on the 'wrong' side, in an emergency, and carefully.  It can also be totally depowered (weathercocking) if required or while you wait for the boat to spin around to a better angle.

Shunting is quick, if the boat is set up for it with automatically rotating rudders, low weight (so it stops and starts quickly), no headsails, variable load sheeting (1:1 or 1:2 for 90% of the shunt, then whatever is required for normal sailing) and crew prepared to move fore/aft and inboard/outboard to assist steering.  I have solo shunted  a 10m/35'ter in 8 seconds, from releasing the sheet to flow attached on the rudders going the other direction.  

However, it does still stop, and this is the worrying time.  If the conditions were diabolical I would sail onto a reach and slow down to just have steerage way before shunting.  This minimises the load on the sheet, the distance the boom has to travel and the boat's inertia.  The stopped time would be a couple of seconds and the range for getting head to wind then backwinded is 90 degrees in each direction.  Based on many hours offshore racing a turbo'd sistership to Nice Pair, I feel a lot safer and more in control shunting a proa in scary conditions than tacking the cat.  

All of which is nothing if you don't get out there and practice.  Race prep is key.  If it was me, this would include a few days spent sailing back and forth through the Narrows in increasingly worsening conditions and sailing up to Ketchikan and back.  This is a much better use of time than a glossy paint job (apart from the wet bits),  publicity videos/blogs and 'practicing' in benign conditions.

CWK,

A couple of things to think about: 

1) Whether you agree with my boat suggestion or not, I am one of the few people here who actually suggested a way to achieve your object.  So, why would I 'insult' you?  Could it be that you misunderstood what I said?  Regardless, my apologies for whatever it was that upset you.

2) Potential sponsors/donors may read your posts.  Seeing you answer a boat suggestion with a punctuation complaint and invoking your diety about a typo might make them wonder how you are going to handle the pressure during the race and whether your focus is likely to be in the correct place.  

Can you explain why my suggestion would not help you achieve your aims of winning and sponsorship?   

I did not know about The Skiff Sailing Foundation, or that they have Mama Tried available.  Good luck with your application.  

Janet,

If me not racing Bucket List  "tells us" anything, it is that I am not willing to race a novel boat unless it is 100% ready to race.  This is based on 60 odd years of racing including 12 and 18' skiffs, 7 Sydney Hobarts (one on a 12m trimaran, one as watch captain on a RTW maxi), race record and the double in the Brisbane Gladstone on a 38' cat, a season as boat nigel on a Spanish Admirals Cupper, selection for  Aus and NZ in the Clipper and Southern Cross Cups, capsizing a 35' race cat in the North Atlantic, etc.  

It also "tells us" that I preferred to spend my Bucket List time trying new ideas (foiling, triscarphs, kite power, and novel rigs, steering and build methods) rather than optimising and tweaking a race boat to prove what I already knew; a half ton/tonne 40'ter with 60 sq m/630 sq' of sail area would be pretty quick.  

Instead of giving me a hard time about this, maybe tell us why you think Bucket List, or, better, the proposed R2A boat would not do the job?  Maybe also,  based on your racing, building and sponsor getting experience,  whether you think CWK building one will get him a boat and a sponsor quicker than writing begging letters?

Not sure Rob,

How many people did you find to sponsor your bucket list Harry Proa the first time you tried this?

I have a feeling this volly can last forever, like putting two mirrors together... 

The real question is who's going to talk about harry proas when Rob stops posting?  I bet they die a quiet death..

[D Wayne G 155]

Not quiet enough!