JanetC Gougeon32 68 Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 20 hours ago, harryproa said: How does this work? What are the benefits? Janet CGougeon 32 said Thought you would never ask about BL sponsors ;-) I spent a lot of time spruiking the idea, got a lot of people saying it was good, but no one was prepared to buy one or invest in the charter race boat business. I decided to build a prototype. Almost immediately, I got offers of discounted 'glass and carbon, cheap resin, free engineering, no rent on 2 different sheds, cheap interstate transport and several offers of free labour. All from people who wanted to encourage me to have a go. None of them asked for reimbursement, or cared, when the boat did not get raced. I had similar experiences when I built a windmill powered boat in the UK 40 years ago which made it onto national radio, TV, newspaper and a lot of other media, including op ed pieces in several local papers. The result was no money, but plenty of 'in kind' help from the entities listed on the side of the boat. This is pretty typical of sponsor applications I have tried for a 35' race cat and the current project, an 80' cargo proa. CWK might be able to learn from my experience, which is why I posted it. I suspect the "vollying continues" until you realise what all the other trolls realised. I don't post here to see my name in print, to criticise people or to discuss their marketing. I am here to have positive discussions about boats with the lurkers who don't want to get insulted when they post here so contact me when I post. As well as being interesting to discuss boats with, some of these people visit my web page and buy my plans. You rabbitting on about nothing important from 3 years ago gives me an opportunity to mention information these people find relevant. You are the gift that keeps on giving! ;-) I have no idea who will talk about Harryproas when I stop, but maybe one of the 2,000+ people who read my (pretty boring, I only talk about building the boat, nothing about racing it) Facebook posts most weeks or one of the 650 people in the Harryproa chat group. One of them has just started a thread on Boat Design about the cargo proa. Quick! Get over there and tell them I didn't race Bucket List 3 years ago so I can't be trusted. Whatever you do, don't discuss the boat and certainly don't read, respond or take any notice of anything I write about it, or Bucket List. Don't forget to tell them you are not trolling me. Boat Design thread: https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/80-foot-cargo-harryproa.64736/ Facebook on the build: https://www.facebook.com/Harryproa/?ref=page_internal Harryproa chat group: https://au.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/harryproa/info windmillboat_Tomorrows_world.wmv You could Sponsor CWK! Now there's an idea! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JanetC Gougeon32 68 Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 12 hours ago, multihuler said: It is unlikely your going to get perfect weather for 4 days, but at 400lbs, 25ft x 14ft, with a 39ft mast , she would horizon job the fleet in under 10 knot winds, Sailing Anarchy Classifieds, where else? Did you ever get Cakewalk's beams rebuilt? What do you do with all these boats in Reno? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
multihuler 212 Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 3 hours ago, JanetC Gougeon32 said: Did you ever get Cakewalk's beams rebuilt? What do you do with all these boats in Reno? Sadly I don't have time for Cakewalk, I would do anything to get her repaired, 34x 26, 2000lbs she is a incredible trimaran Living in Reno gives little time to use the fleet, I have offered inexpensive/cheap partnership's on any of my boats, in any location. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mundt 222 Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 That looks very fast. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
multihuler 212 Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 8 minutes ago, mundt said: That looks very fast. Excuse the sail shapes the downhauls weren't working Quote Link to post Share on other sites
multihuler 212 Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 Just now, multihuler said: 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Trovão 505 Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 10 hours ago, multihuler said: i'd love to take cakewalk for some light air races... 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 844 Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 Cakewalk does look like it could have "the magic". The D-class cat could win the R2AK with the right sailors and the right year. And a good bit of luck (the logs disappear at night, right?) 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harryproa 1 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 On 11/23/2020 at 7:53 AM, JanetC Gougeon32 said: You could Sponsor CWK! Now there's an idea! Worth considering. Thanks. What would an R2A win be worth in publicity for Harryproa? $5,000? $10,000? $20,000? Probably the former, but let's say the middle. Does anyone know what any of the sponsored entries received? In my experience, the usual problems with up front sponsorship of a team without a track record is 1) knowing they will stay motivated and 2) they have no idea of timing, so they compete in a boat that isn't ready and screw it up for everyone involved. Maybe something like this? Applies to anyone, not just the OP. Pay for a set of race boat plans ($US4,000), we discuss exactly what you want and design the boat. I (or they can get them elsewhere) supply the composite materials at our cost price, which is half or less what they would pay locally. For a reasonably optimised version of the 50'ter discussed above, this would be maybe $US15,000, including carbon mast, beams and rudders. They buy the sail and winch (only one of each required), a reel of rope, half a dozen medium blocks, navigation (a chart plotter and a spare plus batteries) and safety gear, perhaps a pedal set up if paddling/rowing is too much effort. Build the boat (or get someone else to build it and miss out on all the fun) and complete a race without problems. I refund half the plans money. Compete in the R2A after sailing the course in both directions, at race pace. If they finish, I pay them 50% of all plans sold for the boat in future, ie $US2,000 per boat. If they win, I pay them $10 grand as well. They act as Harryproa ambassadors between now and the end of the race with blogs, videos, etc. "All" they have to do is convince someone with the cash that they and the boat have enough of what it takes to justify a $20,000 loan, put in the work to build the boat and get a couple of in kind or cash sponsors. This is easier when you have already got one sponsor and are showing you have what it takes to build and campaign the boat. Then practice, practice, practice, win the race, my 10k and the 10k first prize. Repay the loan, own the boat, get an occasional 2 grand plans payment and have enough fame and experience to move on to whatever they want to do next. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 844 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 How do you even get a voice at the table when, after all these decades and the incredible volume of verbage, you still don't have a single boat that has proven to be a half-decent sailboat? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paranda 56 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 Lol we have a new Doug Lord or maybe the original one using the name Harryproa now...?? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D Wayne G 150 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 7 hours ago, harryproa said: Worth considering. Thanks. What would an R2A win be worth in publicity for Harryproa? $5,000? $10,000? $20,000? Probably the former, but let's say the middle. Does anyone know what any of the sponsored entries received? In my experience, the usual problems with up front sponsorship of a team without a track record is 1) knowing they will stay motivated and 2) they have no idea of timing, so they compete in a boat that isn't ready and screw it up for everyone involved. Maybe something like this? Applies to anyone, not just the OP. Pay for a set of race boat plans ($US4,000), we discuss exactly what you want and design the boat. I (or they can get them elsewhere) supply the composite materials at our cost price, which is half or less what they would pay locally. For a reasonably optimised version of the 50'ter discussed above, this would be maybe $US15,000, including carbon mast, beams and rudders. They buy the sail and winch (only one of each required), a reel of rope, half a dozen medium blocks, navigation (a chart plotter and a spare plus batteries) and safety gear, perhaps a pedal set up if paddling/rowing is too much effort. Build the boat (or get someone else to build it and miss out on all the fun) and complete a race without problems. I refund half the plans money. Compete in the R2A after sailing the course in both directions, at race pace. If they finish, I pay them 50% of all plans sold for the boat in future, ie $US2,000 per boat. If they win, I pay them $10 grand as well. They act as Harryproa ambassadors between now and the end of the race with blogs, videos, etc. "All" they have to do is convince someone with the cash that they and the boat have enough of what it takes to justify a $20,000 loan, put in the work to build the boat and get a couple of in kind or cash sponsors. This is easier when you have already got one sponsor and are showing you have what it takes to build and campaign the boat. Then practice, practice, practice, win the race, my 10k and the 10k first prize. Repay the loan, own the boat, get an occasional 2 grand plans payment and have enough fame and experience to move on to whatever they want to do next. Well I would be just as concerned about a sponsor without a track record. You do go on Rob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Solarbri 77 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 53 minutes ago, Paranda said: Lol we have a new Doug Lord or maybe the original one using the name Harryproa now...?? That’s LOW! i know lots of you seem to have issue with Rob, but dragging him down to dOuG fUcKing LoRd level is LAME!!! I, for one, think the HarryProa concept makes sense. But, just like everyone else, I’d really like to see some actually out sailing! Whether racing or cruising. Now! Not 10 year old video clips taken with a vhs camcorder... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JanetC Gougeon32 68 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 8 hours ago, harryproa said: Worth considering. Thanks. What would an R2A win be worth in publicity for Harryproa? $5,000? $10,000? $20,000? Probably the former, but let's say the middle. Does anyone know what any of the sponsored entries received? In my experience, the usual problems with up front sponsorship of a team without a track record is 1) knowing they will stay motivated and 2) they have no idea of timing, so they compete in a boat that isn't ready and screw it up for everyone involved. Maybe something like this? Applies to anyone, not just the OP. Pay for a set of race boat plans ($US4,000), we discuss exactly what you want and design the boat. I (or they can get them elsewhere) supply the composite materials at our cost price, which is half or less what they would pay locally. For a reasonably optimised version of the 50'ter discussed above, this would be maybe $US15,000, including carbon mast, beams and rudders. They buy the sail and winch (only one of each required), a reel of rope, half a dozen medium blocks, navigation (a chart plotter and a spare plus batteries) and safety gear, perhaps a pedal set up if paddling/rowing is too much effort. Build the boat (or get someone else to build it and miss out on all the fun) and complete a race without problems. I refund half the plans money. Compete in the R2A after sailing the course in both directions, at race pace. If they finish, I pay them 50% of all plans sold for the boat in future, ie $US2,000 per boat. If they win, I pay them $10 grand as well. They act as Harryproa ambassadors between now and the end of the race with blogs, videos, etc. "All" they have to do is convince someone with the cash that they and the boat have enough of what it takes to justify a $20,000 loan, put in the work to build the boat and get a couple of in kind or cash sponsors. This is easier when you have already got one sponsor and are showing you have what it takes to build and campaign the boat. Then practice, practice, practice, win the race, my 10k and the 10k first prize. Repay the loan, own the boat, get an occasional 2 grand plans payment and have enough fame and experience to move on to whatever they want to do next. The only thing missing from that "plan" is a Nigerian Prince. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonoflewis 7 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 I have a couple of nominations for the ideal R2AK boat, other than the SC30, which is ideal: Explorer 44 trimaran (Round Midnight) and the legendary Newick "Moxie"... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonoflewis 7 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 The OP was "ideal R2AK boat"... These two multis are not out the question, or even sandbagging. And if they are on the fast side, there have been some other much faster boats doing the race! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonoflewis 7 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 Th4 word "sandbagging" is an unnecessary and counterproductive pejorative. Sailboat racing is a non-stop quest to add performance within the rules. The M32 effort was amazing: 3 young top shelf sailors on a PHRF -100 platform, willing to sail non-stop offshore in cold water for almost 4 days!? It will likely never be equaled?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 844 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 It's such a crapshoot what boat to take because the conditions can change so much from year to year. The competition can change so much too. I could have easily won in 2018 with the G-32 if I had taken crew and if I wasn't worried about the possibility of logs not disappearing at night. To win, it seems like you have to be willing to destroy the boat. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veeger 360 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 14 hours ago, Russell Brown said: It's such a crapshoot what boat to take because the conditions can change so much from year to year. The competition can change so much too. I could have easily won in 2018 with the G-32 if I had taken crew and if I wasn't worried about the possibility of logs not disappearing at night. To win, it seems like you have to be willing to destroy the boat. And therein, lies the rub! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonoflewis 7 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Speaking of Moxie, where is this legend now? Last I heard she was heading to Spain with Lia Dutton in 2011? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonoflewis 7 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 The logs don't disappear during the day up there: every tide line is a potential end of race mishap. Every river mouth is a chaos of barely afloat uncounted board feet waiting to be set free on the huge rising tide. Constant attention is required even in the best weather, even during the day Quote Link to post Share on other sites
can-UK 36 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 28 minutes ago, Veeger said: And therein, lies the rub! I still think those steak knives are worth it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hdra 89 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 23 minutes ago, jonoflewis said: The logs don't disappear during the day up there: every tide line is a potential end of race mishap. Every river mouth is a chaos of barely afloat uncounted board feet waiting to be set free on the huge rising tide. Constant attention is required even in the best weather, even during the day but you can see them during the day... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonoflewis 7 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 and you can't always see them, unfortunately! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ProaSailor 415 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 3 hours ago, jonoflewis said: Speaking of Moxie, where is this legend now? Last I heard she was heading to Spain with Lia Dutton in 2011? Moxie is meant for the big ocean, not the log laden fjords of BC. The boat stayed in France: https://moxiesailing.bzh/ recent(?) haulout video: https://m.facebook.com/groups/GoldenOldiesMultihulls/permalink/10157271762577504/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/GoldenOldiesMultihulls http://dicknewickboats.com/moxie/ As for logs at night, the R2AK should always start with the full moon optimized for night sailing the first week, eh? If not too cloudy, of course. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zonker 3,017 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Jeez, I've sailed this area for many years and have only hit 1 telephone pole sized log. It was during the day too Lots of little bits of scrap wood that make a thunk now and then. Our boat (and a lot of custom boats that are made with a male plug) had a bow built this way. The false bow had a few light layers of glass over the crushable foam. We've hit some BIG logs with it and it just crushes the bow and leaves the primary structure intact. Think of a car bumper. Fastest hit was in the Indian Ocean around 9 knots. The bow was also raked not vertical which helps a bit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veeger 360 Posted November 30, 2020 Share Posted November 30, 2020 Plumb bows tend to be a bit less forgiving but.. I tagged a big 'un off the N end of Vancouver island pitching down into. The sound 'hurt' and I worried about more hits aft by the dagger/saildrive/rudder(s) but it 'buffed right out' on the next haul out with a simple gelcoat repair. I also got tagged in the San Juan Channel at 8 knots. Missed the stem (or bumped it lightly) but got cross ways on the dagger board. 8 knots to 2 in a 50 degree turn (uncontrolled) into the wind. Again, gel coat repair to the dagger board on the next haul out a year later. Practically speaking, the Mainecat 41 is a tank.... Smaller boats are so much lighter that a little layer of kevlar on the stem(s)/ leading edges of boards and corresponding reinforcement of the trunk crush areas is likely adequate for most. At 15 or 20 knots?......no experience here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kenny Dumas 301 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Everglades Challenge has the same problem, you have to suffer to win. And you miss all the cool camping. Perhaps a side bet GP class for sailors experienced enough to stop at night? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 844 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 I put one giant pumpkin of a log between the hulls going fast with the kite up. didn't see it until the last second and gulped a bug breath until it passed under. luckily I was lined up with it and somehow it didn't bob up and catch anything sticking down on my low-rider boat. It seems like luck and holding one's mouth right has a lot to do with it. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CWK 6 Posted December 1, 2020 Author Share Posted December 1, 2020 Hey guys I know its been a while, but I've been a little busy with school and getting this bit together with Sail Worlds David Schmidt. https://www.sail-world.com/news/233241/Team-Barely-Legal-Racings-plans-for-the-2021-R2AK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gspot 203 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 1 hour ago, CWK said: Hey guys I know its been a while, but I've been a little busy with school and getting this bit together with Sail Worlds David Schmidt. https://www.sail-world.com/news/233241/Team-Barely-Legal-Racings-plans-for-the-2021-R2AK I think this is a great article and I'm really excited to see you guys out on the water! Regarding the question about your team's biggest weakness, you cited experience with the race itself and knowledge of the Inside Passage. I'll offer another suggestion to explore: Your team is undoubtedly skilled at high-performance sailing, but it looks like most if not all of your experience is on short or medium-distance courses. Do you know how your bodies react to sleep deprivation over longer courses (i.e. several days) and how you can compensate for or manage these reactions? For instance, some people do just fine with 20-minute cat naps, while others require a few hours of solid sleep at a time. And how does nutrition play a role for your individual bodies? Alex Thompson said he posts simple instructions on how to carry out tacks and gybes that he can follow in a sleep-deprived state. Testing and learning to manage your own reactions to sleep deprivation would be very helpful before you get to the race course. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floating Duck 119 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, gspot said: Alex Thompson said he posts simple instructions on how to carry out tacks and gybes that he can follow in a sleep-deprived state. If you look at most of the winches of IMOCA boats they have arrows to show direction. These are professional sailors for gods sake, don't they know which way the thing turns?! ... sleep deprivation is real. The Aussies tend to be the best high performance sailors in the world. Why aren't they taking over endurance racing like the Vendee Globe??? ... Just something to think about as y'all get out there and start preparing! Can't wait to hopefully race against you guys one of these days! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CWK 6 Posted December 1, 2020 Author Share Posted December 1, 2020 1 hour ago, gspot said: I think this is a great article and I'm really excited to see you guys out on the water! Regarding the question about your team's biggest weakness, you cited experience with the race itself and knowledge of the Inside Passage. I'll offer another suggestion to explore: Your team is undoubtedly skilled at high-performance sailing, but it looks like most if not all of your experience is on short or medium-distance courses. Do you know how your bodies react to sleep deprivation over longer courses (i.e. several days) and how you can compensate for or manage these reactions? For instance, some people do just fine with 20-minute cat naps, while others require a few hours of solid sleep at a time. And how does nutrition play a role for your individual bodies? Alex Thompson said he posts simple instructions on how to carry out tacks and gybes that he can follow in a sleep-deprived state. Testing and learning to manage your own reactions to sleep deprivation would be very helpful before you get to the race course. Thank you for that! We will make sure to get more data on each of us for that topic. Ill make sure to label as much as possible on whatever boat we get and make sure we know our rolls inside and out. You are completely right on the sleep deprivation part, I know that I can do the 20 min from previous experience, but I will need to gather more info on the team and do more training in that area. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonoflewis 7 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 Ask a Kiwi if the Aussies are the best racing sailors!?! Some of the winches on the big tris winch counter-clockwise, in which case it is very helpful to have the reminder of the correct winching direction clearly shown on the top of the winch? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SSolo 152 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 i had /have simple instruction written down when solo - when sailing in near zombie mode a written sequence avoids cock up Pegasus (Open 50, boards, canting keel etc) had the aide memoir "A Bored Runner Sheeted and Keeled Over" across the back of the coach roof = set boards, set runners, set sheets, fire the keel pump, drop the helm (as the keel went rough the vertical) and get on with it' ps I think the Brits and French may argue over the best high performance sailor claim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SSolo 152 Posted December 2, 2020 Share Posted December 2, 2020 learning how crew manage their sleep deprivation is important Personally i don't sail watches on my boats trusting my (VERY short handed/solo experienced guys) to manage their own sleep and keep everyone else aware of what they are feeling/doing. one usually assumes responsibly for making sure everyone is fed, but we lean to self manage fluid and food Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CWK 6 Posted December 3, 2020 Author Share Posted December 3, 2020 As far as boat owners go, do you guys know anyone who wants an adventure? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SSolo 152 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 On 12/3/2020 at 11:31 PM, CWK said: As far as boat owners go, do you guys know anyone who wants an adventure? yes - please, boat is wrong side of pond tho... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cal20sailor 2,517 Posted December 5, 2020 Share Posted December 5, 2020 On 11/30/2020 at 2:46 PM, ProaSailor said: Moxie is meant for the big ocean, not the log laden fjords of BC. The boat stayed in France: https://moxiesailing.bzh/ recent(?) haulout video: https://m.facebook.com/groups/GoldenOldiesMultihulls/permalink/10157271762577504/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/GoldenOldiesMultihulls http://dicknewickboats.com/moxie/ As for logs at night, the R2AK should always start with the full moon optimized for night sailing the first week, eh? If not too cloudy, of course. I sailed many miles on a Newick 50' patterned after Moxie. If the R2AK has upwind work, the Newick does fine. It's not a sports car and easily accommodates 4-5 crew. It would allow the boat to be pushed vs just sharing hallucinations. I did 6 or so Mackinac races and we were always about on par speed wise with the SC70s, that is, we finished with them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harryproa 1 Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 On 11/30/2020 at 3:17 AM, D Wayne G said: Well I would be just as concerned about a sponsor without a track record. Would you be "concerned" enough to turn down 10 grand? My sponsorship record goes back to the early 90's, when I was selling epoxy. See post 137 on http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/217131-70-cruising-proabig-red-yacht/&page=2 Since then I have supported, with materials, plans and advice, several hundred builders and sailors. And been supported for several tens of thousand dollars of in kind sponsorship, starting with my 18' skiff, (Cool Leopard in 1969), which was sponsored by Leopard Brewery and continuing to the present with the 80' cargo proa via a 9m/30' windmill powered catamaran, a 10.5m 35' offshore racing cat and Bucket List. Probably a better track record of giving and getting than most of the posters here. On 11/30/2020 at 11:51 AM, Russell Brown said: To win, it seems like you have to be willing to destroy the boat. Maybe, which is a good reason to not spend too much money on fancy paint jobs, heaps of gear and excess finishing. I see it as a design challenge: Reinforced raked bows to ride over logs (easy with a 50'ter weighing less than 500 kgs/1,100 lbs) and no fittings (forestays, forebeams, prodders etc) that can be compromised. Lightweight and long for minimal draft. Big rig and easily flown windward hull (ie, wide overall with adjustable weight distribution) to reduce the chances of impact by 50%, , flat sections for easy repair, no rocker for easy rolling up a beach on fenders, kick up rudders that do not have through hull fittings and definitely no daggerboards. Probably not sufficient for all circumstances, but at least it allows you to sail at reduced speed at night, rather finding somewhere to drop the hook. On 11/30/2020 at 3:59 AM, JanetC Gougeon32 said: The only thing missing from that "plan" is a Nigerian Prince. it was your idea, I was just showing how it would work. Not everyone is blinded by their prejudices. 4 people have contacted me about it, 2 of whom are surprising. Unlikely to happen for next year, but it might for 2023. On 11/30/2020 at 12:45 AM, Russell Brown said: How do you even get a voice at the table when, after all these decades and the incredible volume of verbage, you still don't have a single boat that has proven to be a half-decent sailboat? You keep asking questions I have already answered! I "get a voice at the table" because, as i pointed out on the 70' cruising proa big red yacht thread: "I'm pretty sure no one who has posted so far has designed, built or sailed on as many different types and sizes of proas, from traditional through to the 24m/80' cargo proa. Plus 40 years selling materials to and advising amateur and professional boat builders. I have also done a little offshore racing (including 7 Sydney Hobarts, one on a 40' trimaran), was a trans Pacific and Atlantic catamaran delivery skipper in the days before gps, have capsized 2 racing cats (one in the North Atlantic) and have sailed on boats which hit a whale (keel damage) and a sunfish (broken rudder) at high speed. I consider this experience to be more valuable in designing safe, fast and easy to build and sail proas than thousands of careful offshore cruising miles in a single type.... " Mostly though, despite 4 pages of boat suggestions, an article in the local paper and a tax dodge, I am the only one offering any sponsorship and a pretty good chance of winning. I appreciate that it looks as if Russ and I are working together to promote Harryproas (ie he keeps making ridiculous claims so I can refute them with evidence and examples), but it ain't so. The story is explained in Chapter 45 of http://www.coolmobility.com.au/Yacht/LightBrigade.pdf , Gary Baigent's excellent book about New Zealand yacht designs and designers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JanetC Gougeon32 68 Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 4 hours ago, harryproa said: it was your idea, I was just showing how it would work. Not everyone is blinded by their prejudices. 4 people have contacted me about it, 2 of whom are surprising. Unlikely to happen for next year, but it might for 2023. healthy skepticism, maybe - but prejudice? That's a bit histrionic. Looking forward to 2023. I'd love to see proas racing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
multihuler 212 Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 20 hours ago, Cal20sailor said: I sailed many miles on a Newick 50' patterned after Moxie. If the R2AK has upwind work, the Newick does fine. It's not a sports car and easily accommodates 4-5 crew. It would allow the boat to be pushed vs just sharing hallucinations. I did 6 or so Mackinac races and we were always about on par speed wise with the SC70s, that is, we finished with them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kalimotxo 19 Posted December 6, 2020 Share Posted December 6, 2020 (edited) On 12/5/2020 at 6:04 PM, SSolo said: On 12/4/2020 at 12:31 AM, CWK said: As far as boat owners go, do you guys know anyone who wants an adventure? yes - please, boat is wrong side of pond tho... Same problem here. But our seacart will be for sale in october. Please let me know if that is of interest to you. Our adventures will become a bit smaller and more civilised on a dragonfly with kitchen head and nursery. I will buy an ad when the time has come Edited December 6, 2020 by Kalimotxo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 844 Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 15 hours ago, harryproa said: I appreciate that it looks as if Russ and I are working together to promote Harryproas (ie he keeps making ridiculous claims so I can refute them with evidence and examples), but it ain't so. The story is explained in Chapter 45 of http://www.coolmobility.com.au/Yacht/LightBrigade.pdf , Gary Baigent's excellent book about New Zealand yacht designs and designers. Evidence and examples? Ridiculous claims? You have never even produced a boat that has completed a race, let alone done well in one, so how can you think that someone would build one for the R2AK? None of your boats has ever completed an ocean passage, except for one short one that you would rather not talk about. After about a quarter of a century of or your "wild claims" there is not much to show, not even one client who will back you up. Back off on the bullshit and show us something that works. Does Gary Baigent feel okay about what he wrote after all these years of dissapointing results? Gary? 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
40Plus 36 Posted December 7, 2020 Share Posted December 7, 2020 Thought I would post this for those that don’t appreciate the amount of wood in the water on parts of the course, here is reminder of what’s out there. These are pics from 2019. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jonoflewis 7 Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 That is a really, really cool Newick: Lucky Strike, if I am not mistaken. THAT might be the ideal R2AK boat?!?! My Seacart has a big rudder on each ama and a maybe 6' long dagger sticking down into the black midnight depths... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
multihuler 212 Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 36 minutes ago, jonoflewis said: That is a really, really cool Newick: Lucky Strike, if I am not mistaken. THAT might be the ideal R2AK boat?!?! My Seacart has a big rudder on each ama and a maybe 6' long dagger sticking down into the black midnight depths... Part of R2ak is rowing in and out of Victoria and ketchican, it would take at least a crew of 6 to get her to move, headwinds would be a killer. Newick's Native 38ft hull number 1, Moxie's older sister was faster Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 844 Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 Lucky strike is striking! There are some logs in this video starting at 5:19. Can't really recommend the rest of the video. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
40Plus 36 Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Russell Brown said: Lucky strike is striking! There are some logs in this video starting at 5:19. Can't really recommend the rest of the video. Great video, thanks for posting Russell . 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 844 Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 The videos of returning from AK are the best, especially the 2018 one. That's a friggin' great trip! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
44forty 166 Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 On 12/7/2020 at 12:02 AM, harryproa said: 18' skiff, (Cool Leopard in 1969), which was sponsored by Leopard Brewery I saw an 18” skiff with leopard brewery logos in the mid 90s...rotting away in a back yard in Devonport NZ (New Zealand) . It had a varnished ply transom with kitchen funnels on bungies to self drain the cockpit 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Amati 1,513 Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 On 11/30/2020 at 9:03 AM, hdra said: but you can see them during the day... Tell that to the log that was stuck vertically in the mud, completely submerged. We tagged the end of it with the bottom of our bulb (8.5’ feet deep). Thunk thunk, scrape scrape, which dislodged it, and it surfaced like one of those attack submarines doing an emergency ascent about 20’ from us. After watching that, we went back to tearing the lazarets and floorboards apart because you really can’t tell where the sound comes from. No damage, just scrape marks. But you hear stories about NW logs coming up from the depths and skewering a boat. Until that particular moment in time (^^^^^sic) I thought them apocryphal.... As far as best boats, Team Madrona did ok. Ocelot ( mentioned above), and the Melges too. Light air prowess, upwind ability, and the ability to keep moving when you’re getting the shit kick out of you. Oh! NW sailing! Kind of wonder how a 30sq m might do...there was one that paddled right past us once... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sidecar 974 Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 “The right boat” is such a small part of the R2AK equation, and even if you find “the right boat”, so much depends on what others bring to the race, and the quality:of their campaign, compared to yours. Better to get something (anything) that should get you in the front row, and get on with developing the rest of the necessary game plan. For me, as commendable as all the campaigns of the podium finishers on this race have been, one of the smartest and gutsiest efforts were the young team in the Melges 24. https://r2ak.com/2019-daily-updates/2019-day-6-celebrations-and-the-knife-edge-between-tragedy-and-triumph/ As much as I enjoyed racing in Melges 24’s over the years, I wouldn’t do R2AK in one if you paid me. A lot. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 844 Posted December 9, 2020 Share Posted December 9, 2020 I'd never read this: So happy that I wasn't aboard. The standout of the night was Team Educated Guess, whose three beers in recounting offered up a stream of next level jaw droppers that caused even the R2AK racers to shake their heads and genuflect inwardly. Team Educated Guess’ campaign was the kind of R2AK science experiment that fused fast boats with good sailors and the infinite possibilities of a race without guardrails. They upgraded their Melges 24 with a trapeze; a set of harnesses that allow crew to stand on the edge of the boat and extend their body over the water—their body a counterweight to the force in the sails. You can sail without the trapeze, all the other teams did, but a trap provides the leverage to drive the boat harder at the cost of safety. Did they use it? All the time and forever. “We trapezed from Cape Mudge to Current Pass.” How long was that? “I dunno, ten hours…something? They worked out a system to wake each other up when they fell asleep out there.” Still, they had limits: they never trapped downwind. They had been on the edge and they knew it. With every detail of their humility displaced adrenaline, the face of their audience reflected just how lucky they had been. The apex moment was a downwind run in 40 knots in Hecate strait. “We were hitting 18 regularly.” Their 24-foot boat was on a downwind rager in 40 knots of wind, careening down wave faces 2/3 the size of their boat and making 18 knots on the steady. “We’d get on 16-foot cresting waves, and one of them would break under you and the sea would just fall away and the boat would drop 4 feet.” The drop was the take off assist for a surf down the wave face that would accelerate the boat over 20 knots. “22 was our top.” This went on for hours. With a full main and a full spinnaker they had carried too much sail for too long. The standard way to shorten sail is to nose the boat into the wind to depower the sails, which in this case would have meant bringing the boat into the waves, and before they got there they’d be broadside to and the boat would roll. Add to that rock in a hard place, at speeds like that, some mind-bending physics starts to take over. When the boat was going slow (ie 15 knots) the trimmer couldn’t work the sheets; they were just too loaded with the force of the sails. But when the boat accelerated to warp speed, the apparent wind dropped and took enough load off the sails to allow for adjustment. It was impossible to put a reef in the main, so they came up with a plan. “I was like, alright boys, the next time we get on top of some big f***-off wave and we hit 22, douse it.” They struck the spinnaker in 35 knots of wind, 15-foot seas, going 22 knots, on a 24-foot boat. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
harryproa 1 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 On 12/8/2020 at 4:56 PM, 44forty said: I saw an 18” skiff with leopard brewery logos in the mid 90s...rotting away in a back yard in Devonport NZ (New Zealand) . It had a varnished ply transom with kitchen funnels on bungies to self drain the cockpit Probably the same one. Farr designed, the same as Beazley Homes, the 12' skiff we had before Leopard. Both beautiful cold moulded hulls and a blast to sail. 3 strings on the 18 after a capsize with the hull nearly awash, sheet on, the water pours out the funnel holes and over the transom and you are off. Huge fun. Colossal symmetric chute with a 2 piece pole and 3 x 15 year old owners, each with different ideas on what to do and when. As much swimming as sailing until we got the hang of it. On 12/7/2020 at 12:15 PM, Russell Brown said: Evidence and examples? Ridiculous claims? You have never even produced a boat that has completed a race, let alone done well in one, so how can you think that someone would build one for the R2AK? Answered in Post 59 in the big red proa thread and several times previously. Instead of ignoring my replies to your questions, why don't you say what you disagree with at the time, rather than waiting a month or so and repeating them? Read post 340 on this thread for some of my credentials and the proposed boat characteristics, then, instead of bashing me, talk about why the boat would not succeed. Maybe consider that tthere is more to designing a race proa than race experience. Witness Team Pure and Wild, the Pacific proa designed and built by legends of the genre, but pulled out on the first night as it was impossible to sail in breezes over 6 knots due to fundamental flaws, according to their facebook posts. Meanwhile, a similar length harryproa I built in 5 weeks with a bunch of Marshallese Islanders is comfortably cruising around at 13 knots in breezes up to 28 knots with 5 people and their fishing gear on board. On 12/7/2020 at 12:15 PM, Russell Brown said: None of your boats has ever completed an ocean passage, except for one short one that you would rather not talk about. Another repeat. I'm happy to talk about Aroha, the first of the original 40' Harryproas launched. The owner, his wife and a friend, none of whom had sailed offshore, loaded it with double it's recommended payload and sailed from Aus to NZ, encountering a gale and breaking a ring frame which should have been a bulkhead, since fixed. They then used it for coastal sailing/fishing until the owner died a couple of years ago. Aroha has been sold to another kiwi who is refurbishing it, should be sailing this summer. The story of the Tasman crossing is on the Harryproa web page, warts and all, the same as any other stories/videos I receive or write about Harryproas. If you disagree with it, say so now, rather than bringing it up again in a a couple of months. On 12/7/2020 at 12:15 PM, Russell Brown said: After about a quarter of a century of or your "wild claims" there is not much to show, not even one client who will back you up. Back off on the bullshit and show us something that works. And another repeat. My apologies to the forum members who can read. Following is my reply to this question in post #59 of the Big Red proa thread, posted 2 months ago. Telling Rick Willoughby to "Back off on the bullshit" is not very nice after all he did for you with your pedal gear. Re "Harryproa owners testimony": The following is by Rick Willoughby. Rick (70 next year) sails with the owner/builder of a 60'/18m Harryproa in Melbourne. The builder (same age or older) was a power boater with no sailing or building experience who wanted a sailing boat that was quick and easy to build and sail, low cost and fun to experiment with. He built it mostly singlehanded with email and phone advice from me. The boat weighs 4 tonnes. I don't know the cost, but I would be surprised if it was more than $Aus50,000/$US36,000 in materials, ready to sail. This is pretty typical of other Harryproas, supporting my claims about weight and cost. "We had a good northerly until we got up into Western Port then the wind died. It came back up to about 8kts, allowing us to work up to Hastings. The wind started out around 15kts but built quickly to 20kts and gusted to 25 knots at times with us running almost dead square (Edit: sorry, no video, but it is far easier on a Harryproa than on a boat with a jib on the bow, both in theory and in practice). Downwind we averaged better than 10kts once we got going and nudged over 13kts in the gusts. Reaching across from the rip to Cape Schank gave the best speed I have seen on the boat. The wind during this period was 18 to 20kts. We touched over 17kts a couple of times. Wind was just aft of beam. We may have coaxed a little more speed if the course was 10 degrees higher. (edit: top speed since then is 19 knots). snip The best speed, consistently above 15kts, was as we approached Cape Schank where the fetch was reduced and waves less than 1m. We then hardened up a bit and speed dropped to around 13kts. After that the wind dropped as we got further into Western Port. We managed a short shunt pinching up to make the channel past Cowes where the angle between tacks was 79 degrees. However that was very much tide assisted. The usual loop at the shunt looks like a smooth U-turn." There is a video, gps track and wind data at http://harryproa.com/?p=129 along with a photo of the boat sailing easily dead downwind in about 18 knots of breeze. Yes, that is Paul Larsen (Sailrocket) steering. "Winds were very light 3 to 4 knots according to Fawkner beacon data. Irrespective of the light winds we could maintain control right up to about 45 degrees true. In these conditions we made best VMG by dropping off the wind a little but were sailing higher than a nearby deep keeler." "On a reach with the board up we managed boat speed above windspeed. That was coming back in 5 to 6 knots of wind doing 6.5 to 7 knots through the water." These quotes, boats and information about Harryproas and why the design choices were made is on www.harryproa.com On 12/7/2020 at 12:15 PM, Russell Brown said: Does Gary Baigent feel okay about what he wrote after all these years of dissapointing results? Gary? I suspect Gary's opinion, like the circumstances, has not changed. You are still bitter about me referring to magazine articles about your boats (see the big red proa thread) and are (mis)behaving accordingly, Harryproa sales are going well enough that I can afford to build the 24m/80' cargo proa and spend the next 3 years cruising/demonstrating green shipping to remote Pacific villages You have sold your proa so you could spend months chipping off gel coat and sail a cat. Afaik Gary still agrees with the majority of sailors who think that the logic of weight to windward vs weight to leeward on proas is as compelling as it is for all other boat types. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Autonomous 403 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Wasn't this thread about R2AK boats? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boardhead 226 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Thought so ----- Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TwoBirds 83 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 I'm sure Rob meant to post his racer and just misclicked, here it is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Amati 1,513 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 The best boats so far seem to be light shorter multis (30-34’), long light ULDB monos, with a smattering of longer tri’s. So on the inland route at any rate, how important is human power? Would a next step be reducing windage easily for HP? (Think something like Broad’s raters there...) Plus light air and heavy air upwind ability in a chop. The other thing seems to be 3-4 crew for the shorter successful boats, and a cast of thousands for the long ULDBs. Two approaches self selecting? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D Wayne G 150 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 2 hours ago, TwoBirds said: I'm sure Rob meant to post his racer and just misclicked, here it is. I saw what you did! Too funny. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 844 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 I think there's a new race being dreamed up to take the place of the R2AK in case the border is still closed. It's closer to home but still pretty long and that's about all I can say about it without pissing someone off. It sounds like a great race though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
40Plus 36 Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 Russell - good to have a plan B although it would exclude anyone north of the border. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gspot 203 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 5 hours ago, 40Plus said: Russell - good to have a plan B although it would exclude anyone north of the border. Although "Race to Prince Rupert" doesn't have quite the same ring for us Canucks... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floating Duck 119 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 Race around the sound. But you must stop at all of the great burger joints (and that one ice cream place in gig harbor) on the way. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russell Brown 844 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 7 hours ago, 40Plus said: Russell - good to have a plan B although it would exclude anyone north of the border. Dude, at least you already are where we want to be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
multihuler 212 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 If it is plan b I will invite the entire rowing team and do the.burger run 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Amati 1,513 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 15 hours ago, Russell Brown said: I think there's a new race being dreamed up to take the place of the R2AK in case the border is still closed. It's closer to home but still pretty long and that's about all I can say about it without pissing someone off. It sounds like a great race though. Neah Bay involved? I can see it now- Olympia to Neah Bay and back, what checkpoints though? Start at Olympia, then Shelton, West side of Vashon, West side of Bainbridge, Port Ludlow, the cut to Pt Townsend, Dungeness Spit, Neah Bay, Cattle Point, Friday Harbor, one of the Northern Outer San Juan Islands, Bellingham,Ticonderoga Passage, Everett, Elliot Bay, Commencement Bay, Gig Harbor, West of Fox Island, Anderson etc, , around Hartstine (crap, forgot how to spell it) Island, then Olympia again? Getting run over by a Ferry would get extra points! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D Wayne G 150 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 3 hours ago, multihuler said: If it is plan b I will invite the entire rowing team and do the.burger run Wow! Cool to see you got the boat together. Looks great! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TwoBirds 83 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 Americans are allowed to drive through Canada to get to Alaska, as long as the race didn't stop at Victoria it'd probably be fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
D Wayne G 150 Posted December 15, 2020 Share Posted December 15, 2020 Interesting thought. The American boats who have been transiting on their way to Alaska have been cleared into Canada. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tDot 114 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 But the Americans driving through to Alaska have to prove residency, family or work in Alaska. They can't just be going through on a vacation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGul 78 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 Here -victory and set a new record; https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2012/custom-ac45f-lux-3603590/?fbclid=IwAR2SftTLNBf3PByfRdi0yISinu1jRp5dwS31J6BDKwrg8JGJdQ50PfSeqKE Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TwoBirds 83 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 spend 125k to win 10k? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SeaGul 78 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, TwoBirds said: spend 125k to win 10k? This is not for profit - no sailing will make profit .... but if you sell it for same its 10t+... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
40Plus 36 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 2 hours ago, SeaGul said: Here -victory and set a new record; https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2012/custom-ac45f-lux-3603590/?fbclid=IwAR2SftTLNBf3PByfRdi0yISinu1jRp5dwS31J6BDKwrg8JGJdQ50PfSeqKE Educate me how you would deal with 35 knts wind speed and 4m waves. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Airwick 202 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 18 minutes ago, 40Plus said: Educate me how you would deal with 35 knts wind speed and 4m waves. I'm not even sure that's the worst case! In theory at least you can depower nicely with a rigid wing, having to go downwind in that would probably be more of a concern... But before you even got there, chances are even a "small" log would take you out! On a displacement hull when you meet a chunk of wood it will typically first hit the hull and and when it hits the foil it's right at the base where it meets the hull so even at fairly high speed you still have a reasonable chance of surviving without catastrophic damage. On these foiling things, the same piece of wood hits a lot closer to the tip and is a lot more likely to cause the foil to slice through the hull where they meet so it would be truly scary sailing a boat like this at 25+kt in R2AK waters. That's a lot of knots per dollars though (at least until you consider the running costs)! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
40Plus 36 Posted December 21, 2020 Share Posted December 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Airwick said: I'm not even sure that's the worst case! In theory at least you can depower nicely with a rigid wing, having to go downwind in that would probably be more of a concern... But before you even got there, chances are even a "small" log would take you out! On a displacement hull when you meet a chunk of wood it will typically first hit the hull and and when it hits the foil it's right at the base where it meets the hull so even at fairly high speed you still have a reasonable chance of surviving without catastrophic damage. On these foiling things, the same piece of wood hits a lot closer to the tip and is a lot more likely to cause the foil to slice through the hull where they meet so it would be truly scary sailing a boat like this at 25+kt in R2AK waters. That's a lot of knots per dollars though (at least until you consider the running costs)! BTW, my question was meant as sarcasm. Having been in Hecate Strait in those conditions pretty sure you would be upside down in an AC 45. As for logs, yup know all about those! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floating Duck 119 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 The good news is there now appears to be plenty of time before the 2022 R2AK so these guys can find their dream boat... I hope to be proven wrong! God how I miss 2019 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RandyM81 73 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 8 hours ago, 40Plus said: BTW, my question was meant as sarcasm. Having been in Hecate Strait in those conditions pretty sure you would be upside down in an AC 45. As for logs, yup know all about those! I'd bet a solid crew practiced on the boat could finish two-thirds of the time and manage not to die the other third. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
40Plus 36 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 2 hours ago, RandyM81 said: I'd bet a solid crew practiced on the boat could finish two-thirds of the time and manage not to die the other third. Definitely a roll of the dice! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gspot 203 Posted December 22, 2020 Share Posted December 22, 2020 In addition to logs you need to deal with waves like this. Some great footage from Bad Kitty crossing the Nahwitti Bar in the 2015 Van Isle 360, not far behind the R2AK lead boats. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mundt 222 Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 That's a very good video. Them was some rough waters! I've busted a couple aluminum beans that same way. Very cool fix you done. Those conditions on a lesser boat or with lesser humans aboard could be very problematic. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floating Duck 119 Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 ^^^ wtf. This is such a stupid race. What a great video. I need to show this to my crew (GF), although maybe I shouldn't... Thanks for sharing! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mundt 222 Posted December 23, 2020 Share Posted December 23, 2020 Aluminum beams! Not beans! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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