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2 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

Is there a chance that a bowsprit + asymmetric spin + jib might outperform a poled out symmetrical spin downwind? A displacement 40’ cruiser/racer (Bene First40). 10-15kt TWS.

Same size kite? 

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8 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

As large as it gets in both cases. Or, put another way, what relative kite sizes might result in a similar PHRF rating (I know, cue rating committee jokes).

Around these parts, the kites would need to be the same size, on the same size pole, to have the same rating.

An Assym with a 5 foot bowsprit (imagine it with a 5' longer penalty pole) and tacked all the way down at the sheer is going to be quite a bit larger than the standard Symmetric. PHRF will ding you for that.

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Okay, what about same size a) assy+jib vs b) symmetrical? VMG downhill? Is there an established truth? Big$ ocean racers seem to use a), but they are reaching, short handed, and not in displacement mode (even without foils).

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9 minutes ago, crashtestdummy said:

Jib is not going to help you at vmg angles.  

spin staysail will had 1/2 knot when you put  it up and 1/2 knot when you take it down!

if kites are same size and vmg running in 10-15, symmetrical will always win in any boat unless you can break free n that low TWS

Unless you can pole back the Assym. If you can, the cut of the Assym will still have "flow" vs just being drag, which will generate more power.

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Tis a good question, but to be equivalent the assy needs a pole, and even then, when the vpp says sail down to 165 twa for run vmg, it appears (for boats like Bene 40) the sym is just slightly quicker.

To be fair tho, have not yet seen a truly serious effort at the 'vmg run A1' as that would be a highly specialised sail, unlikely to make the inventory for offshore under 3 or 4 spin limitation?

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  • 1 month later...

True passage race 4 spin inventory for medium displacement like Bene40 would be:

1. Masthead zero

2. 0.75 oz full size S2

3. 95% midgirth masthead A3, strong enough for > 30tws

4. Fractional A5

A3 luff length so that it can use pole, at lifeline height.

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  • 6 months later...
On 12/9/2020 at 10:41 AM, stealingisacrime said:

D/L is the key to making the A-sail work.
My guess is the Ben 40.7 is too heavy to gain enough speed from the A-sail to make the extra distance sailed worth it.  

This is your answer.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/15/2020 at 4:26 PM, Raz'r said:

Unless you can pole back the Assym. If you can, the cut of the Assym will still have "flow" vs just being drag, which will generate more power.

^^^This is the ticket - fly the assym on conventional pole so you can square it back!!!

I owned a similar boat with five kites (S1.5, S2, S4, A2, A3) and squaring back the assyms was a potent weapon. 

The A2 was the kite we used 90% of the time because it generated more useful lift than the S2 of the same size because the thrust vector was oriented more in a forward direction. 

The only time I would favour the S2 over the A2 is on a DDW course with lots of gybes (e.g. in a narrow bay or channel) because the S2 is quicker to gybe with a full race crew. Pretty much all other conditions favour the A2. 

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5 minutes ago, gspot said:

^^^This is the ticket - fly the assym on conventional pole so you can square it back!!!

I owned a similar boat with five kites (S1.5, S2, S4, A2, A3) and squaring back the assyms was a potent weapon. 

The A2 was the kite we used 90% of the time because it generated more useful lift than the S2 of the same size because the thrust vector was oriented more in a forward direction. 

The only time I would favour the S2 over the A2 is on a DDW course with lots of gybes (e.g. in a narrow bay or channel) because the S2 is quicker to gybe with a full race crew. Pretty much all other conditions favour the A2. 

Planning PacCup and the A2 will be the 20hour a day workhorse. Maybe we get lucky and see the A4 on occasion 

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1 hour ago, gspot said:

^^^This is the ticket - fly the assym on conventional pole so you can square it back!!!

I owned a similar boat with five kites (S1.5, S2, S4, A2, A3) and squaring back the assyms was a potent weapon. 

The A2 was the kite we used 90% of the time because it generated more useful lift than the S2 of the same size because the thrust vector was oriented more in a forward direction. 

The only time I would favour the S2 over the A2 is on a DDW course with lots of gybes (e.g. in a narrow bay or channel) because the S2 is quicker to gybe with a full race crew. Pretty much all other conditions favour the A2. 

How did you determine that the A2 was more optimal than the S2 in most cases? Did you look at boat speed vs wind speed, how you did relative to other boats or did you use some other technique? I don't think there is any way I could tell how thrust vectors differ between a sym and asym just from sailing the boat.

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1 hour ago, marcklim said:

How did you determine that the A2 was more optimal than the S2 in most cases? Did you look at boat speed vs wind speed, how you did relative to other boats or did you use some other technique? I don't think there is any way I could tell how thrust vectors differ between a sym and asym just from sailing the boat.

For me, my designer said they are. He’s got the design and the VPP. 

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12 hours ago, marcklim said:

How did you determine that the A2 was more optimal than the S2 in most cases? Did you look at boat speed vs wind speed, how you did relative to other boats or did you use some other technique? I don't think there is any way I could tell how thrust vectors differ between a sym and asym just from sailing the boat.

The polars for our boat were produced with a symmetric spinnaker and we could exceed them with an asymmetric squared back. 

The reason is that the thrust produced by a sail is proportional and perpendicular to the curvature of the sail, as shown in this diagram from North Sails.

image.png.99f35331d30231b8e7afc149420008f0.png

With an asymmetric cut as show there is more lift in a forward direction, and if you square back an asymmetric spinnaker much of this will be in the same direction of travel as the boat, versus a symmetric spinnaker which will produce more heel. 

It's a simple fact of physics that asymmetric sails generate more forward lift for a given sail area, otherwise your sailmaker would design all your other sails (e.g. jibs, genoas, mains, code zeroes) with symmetric cuts as well. 

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On 12/9/2020 at 7:41 AM, stealingisacrime said:

D/L is the key to making the A-sail work.
My guess is the Ben 40.7 is too heavy to gain enough speed from the A-sail to make the extra distance sailed worth it.  

That's assuming you're flying it from a sprit and trying to do apparent wind sailing like a sport boat, which doesn't work so well on a heavier boat.

But the asymmetric sail is still a more efficient airfoil shape, and by squaring it back you can sail much closer to the rumb line and don't have to sail the extra distance. 

1 hour ago, SEC16518 said:

When you say pole back an asym, to what degree?  

Just like a sym kite keep the pole perpendicular to the apparent wind. The sweet spot seems to be about 30 degrees off the forestay in above 15 knots of breeze or more, but you do need to take wind speed and boat speed into account.

Stan Honey very successfully raced a Cal 40, and he used a rule of thumb to sail shallower angles whenever the boat speed was below around 6.5 knots, and only head down when he could maintain at least 6.5 knots. 

We adopted his strategy, and would fly the assym directly off the bow with the apparent wind at 90 until we exceeded 6.5 knots, then we would start heading down and squaring the pole back as boat speed increased above that. If the boat speed ever dipped below 6.5 knots we would head up and ease the pole forward.

In 25 knots of breeze we could sustain 10 knots of boat speed at 120 degrees AWA, very close to the rhumb line with the pole squared back 30 degrees. 

We would occasionally square back to 45 degrees, but only for relatively short amounts of time as dictated by the course and prevailing obstructions, otherwise it was more efficient to gybe.

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  • 2 months later...
On 7/22/2021 at 7:25 AM, gspot said:

The polars for our boat were produced with a symmetric spinnaker and we could exceed them with an asymmetric squared back. 

The reason is that the thrust produced by a sail is proportional and perpendicular to the curvature of the sail, as shown in this diagram from North Sails.

image.png.99f35331d30231b8e7afc149420008f0.png

With an asymmetric cut as show there is more lift in a forward direction, and if you square back an asymmetric spinnaker much of this will be in the same direction of travel as the boat, versus a symmetric spinnaker which will produce more heel. 

It's a simple fact of physics that asymmetric sails generate more forward lift for a given sail area, otherwise your sailmaker would design all your other sails (e.g. jibs, genoas, mains, code zeroes) with symmetric cuts as well. 

I agree with your assessment while reaching but on a run the flow on a sym kite changes to top down and both the lift and drag components are forward.

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4 hours ago, climenuts said:

I agree with your assessment while reaching but on a run the flow on a sym kite changes to top down and both the lift and drag components are forward.

Yes, but if your asymmetric kite is cut for running with big shoulders (e.g. A2) it will also be very efficient at this, with the added benefit that it doesn't death roll like a symmetric kite at very deep angles.

image.png.f2f237ee9d6c6e1896daa5f64ef37e87.png

In this photo we didn't have the pole attached yet and the luff could have been eased because it was breaking high.

1 hour ago, crashtestdummy said:

Understand the thought,  so what is the consensus on angle that it pays to fly sym over asym on displacement boat?

As somebody who had 3 symmetric (S1.5, S2, S4) and 2 asymmetric (A2, A3) kites on a heavy displacement boat, the A2 was our go-to kite 90% of the time. 

It had a 0.9oz luff and 0.75oz fabric for the rest of the kite.

We won a dozen major events with that kite, including two Swiftsures, multiple Van Isle 360 legs, and several regional regattas. so I'd say it pays!

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25 minutes ago, gspot said:

Yes, but if your asymmetric kite is cut for running with big shoulders (e.g. A2) it will also be very efficient at this, with the added benefit that it doesn't death roll like a symmetric kite at very deep angles.

image.png.f2f237ee9d6c6e1896daa5f64ef37e87.png

In this photo we didn't have the pole attached yet and the luff could have been eased because it was breaking high.

As somebody who had 3 symmetric (S1.5, S2, S4) and 2 asymmetric (A2, A3) kites on a heavy displacement boat, the A2 was our go-to kite 90% of the time. 

It had a 0.9oz luff and 0.75oz fabric for the rest of the kite.

We won a dozen major events with that kite, including two Swiftsures, multiple Van Isle 360 legs, and several regional regattas. so I'd say it pays!

gorgeous place to sail

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17 hours ago, gspot said:

Yes, but if your asymmetric kite is cut for running with big shoulders (e.g. A2) it will also be very efficient at this, with the added benefit that it doesn't death roll like a symmetric kite at very deep angles.

image.png.f2f237ee9d6c6e1896daa5f64ef37e87.png

In this photo we didn't have the pole attached yet and the luff could have been eased because it was breaking high.

As somebody who had 3 symmetric (S1.5, S2, S4) and 2 asymmetric (A2, A3) kites on a heavy displacement boat, the A2 was our go-to kite 90% of the time. 

It had a 0.9oz luff and 0.75oz fabric for the rest of the kite.

We won a dozen major events with that kite, including two Swiftsures, multiple Van Isle 360 legs, and several regional regattas. so I'd say it pays!

Standard J pole with the asyms?

area of s2 and a2 the same?  How were you treated under rating rule with all those kites?

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, crashtestdummy said:

Standard J pole with the asyms?

area of s2 and a2 the same?  How were you treated under rating rule with all those kites?

Yes we used the same J-length pole for all kites.

We raced under PHRF-Northwest and their rules don't distinguish between syms and asyms, but take the girth of the largest spinnaker to be 1.80(JC) which was equal to J in our case. There was no difference in rating as long as we were using the same J-length pole. 

Both the S2 and A2 were designed and built by UK Sailmakers Northwest to maximize sail area for the boat under the PHRF-NW measurement rule for a "Standard Class Boat" code 5 sail. So on paper they had the exact same sail area, but I'm not sure anybody ever compared the actual cloth square footage. The A2 had a longer luff and shorter leach than the S2 but both had the exact same girth. 

The only time we found the S2 offered an advantage over the A2 was on shorter windward/leeward courses with lots of gybes. Gybing the A2 with the pole takes slightly longer, plus you collapse the kite through the gybe by turning it inside-out, whereby you can keep the S2 flying through the gybe. That said, you need a full crew (e.g. 7-8) with decent skills to fly the S2 under these circumstances, whereby you can get by with a smaller crew (e.g. 4-6) with the A2.

My wife and I also used the A2 double-handed (while not racing) squared back on the pole. We'd never even contemplate using S2 double-handed. 

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2 hours ago, crashtestdummy said:

Standard J pole with the asyms?

area of s2 and a2 the same?  How were you treated under rating rule with all those kites?

 

 

 

 

ORR doesn’t seem to care between the 2. Currently running test certs on adding a stubby inline sprit (for think 10%) and an equivalent pole increase. Same kite size and also testing a 10% increase in kite size.

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32 minutes ago, gspot said:

My wife and I also used the A2 double-handed (while not racing) squared back on the pole. We'd never even contemplate using S2 double-handed. 

Here we are "cruising" double-handed with the A2 squared back, roll-up dinghy on the deck under the main sail.

image.thumb.png.b699ce9afd48731c8ab4078998b163bc.png

And when it got a bit breezier we'd square the A3 back instead, also double-handed, A2 on the deck under the main.

image.thumb.png.899e6852fe88dc8926501d2959406236.png

This is the A3 off the bow (full racing crew), 25 knots true, AWA 90', heading into a narrow channel between two islands so there is no option to head down to depower (photographer on land). Would you fly a sym kite on a heavy displacement boat in these conditions?

image.png.b6d84c2345cefec02b8a5824bf3385db.png

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 10/15/2020 at 12:24 PM, EarthBM said:

Is there a chance that a bowsprit + asymmetric spin + jib might outperform a poled out symmetrical spin downwind? A displacement 40’ cruiser/racer (Bene First40). 10-15kt TWS.

You should talk to your or a good sailmaker. Asym is probably easier to gybe than a Sym. But you are asking about performance.

  • I talked to my sailmaker about a Code 0 tight reacher / heavy air asym. 
  • He suggested an old style Sym, narrow shoulders and flatter cut because it would be more sail area and you could go deeper.
  • Then I thought about gybing with a pole in heavy air and was not happy. Sometimes it is hard to get a good bow for 20+ wind and big seas.
  • Then I thought, why can't I gybe a Sym like an Asym? Set the Sym like normal with a Pole. then have a tack line to the stem fitting. PHRF allows a 6" dimension for this. When Gybing in heavy air remove the pole and snug the tack line and gybe like an Asym. Then attach the pole and pull it back to go deeper.

As far as I know this is not illegal, nothing wrong in being safe in heavy air.  But I'm sure some Asym boat would bitch to the Regional board.

On 10/15/2020 at 2:23 PM, EarthBM said:

Okay, what about same size a) assy+jib vs b) symmetrical? VMG downhill? Is there an established truth? Big$ ocean racers seem to use a), but they are reaching, short handed, and not in displacement mode (even without foils).

On 10/15/2020 at 4:15 PM, crashtestdummy said:

Jib is not going to help you at vmg angles.  

spin staysail will had 1/2 knot when you put  it up and 1/2 knot when you take it down!

if kites are same size and vmg running in 10-15, symmetrical will always win in any boat unless you can break free n that low TWS

On 10/15/2020 at 4:26 PM, Raz'r said:

Unless you can pole back the Assym. If you can, the cut of the Assym will still have "flow" vs just being drag, which will generate more power.

If you declare that you are using your Asym on a sprit and a pole (to go deeper, you will take a penalty. I believe all major rating systems penalize you for this.
But as I wrote above, Is gybing a Sym Kite like an Asym Kite illegal?

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

You should talk to your or a good sailmaker. Asym is probably easier to gybe than a Sym. But you are asking about performance.

  • I talked to my sailmaker about a Code 0 tight reacher / heavy air asym. 
  • He suggested an old style Sym, narrow shoulders and flatter cut because it would be more sail area and you could go deeper.
  • Then I thought about gybing with a pole in heavy air and was not happy. Sometimes it is hard to get a good bow for 20+ wind and big seas.
  • Then I thought, why can't I gybe a Sym like an Asym? Set the Sym like normal with a Pole. then have a tack line to the stem fitting. PHRF allows a 6" dimension for this. When Gybing in heavy air remove the pole and snug the tack line and gybe like an Asym. Then attach the pole and pull it back to go deeper.

As far as I know this is not illegal, nothing wrong in being safe in heavy air.  But I'm sure some Asym boat would bitch to the Regional board.

If you declare that you are using your Asym on a sprit and a pole (to go deeper, you will take a penalty. I believe all major rating systems penalize you for this.
But as I wrote above, Is gybing a Sym Kite like an Asym Kite illegal?

 

 

Before you put a tack line on a sym kite, why not just run two poles. That’s how we jibed cal 40’s in big breeze offshore. 
 

square back, set new pole, jibe main, remove old pole. It’s super easy and can be done mostly from the cockpit. 

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2 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

You should talk to your or a good sailmaker. Asym is probably easier to gybe than a Sym. But you are asking about performance.

  • I talked to my sailmaker about a Code 0 tight reacher / heavy air asym. 
  • He suggested an old style Sym, narrow shoulders and flatter cut because it would be more sail area and you could go deeper.
  • Then I thought about gybing with a pole in heavy air and was not happy. Sometimes it is hard to get a good bow for 20+ wind and big seas.
  • Then I thought, why can't I gybe a Sym like an Asym? Set the Sym like normal with a Pole. then have a tack line to the stem fitting. PHRF allows a 6" dimension for this. When Gybing in heavy air remove the pole and snug the tack line and gybe like an Asym. Then attach the pole and pull it back to go deeper.

As far as I know this is not illegal, nothing wrong in being safe in heavy air.  But I'm sure some Asym boat would bitch to the Regional board.

If you declare that you are using your Asym on a sprit and a pole (to go deeper, you will take a penalty. I believe all major rating systems penalize you for this.
But as I wrote above, Is gybing a Sym Kite like an Asym Kite illegal?

 

 

I don't think you're right. I fly assyms off a regular pole, and neither ORR nor PHRF NorCal "penalize" me for this.  They look at max spin size, and that's that. I will say that gybing a standard symmetric on a standard pole is much easier than an Assym off a standard pole. 

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Excuse the slight hi jack.  Gybing an Assym off a standard pole.  How?    Do you temporarily tact the tact to a fitting/anchor/line at bow and switch the pole to the new side? And use 2 sheets on the clew and rotate the sail?  Rotate clew inside or out side?  Or this depends on wind strength?

Thanks

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26 minutes ago, another505er said:

Excuse the slight hi jack.  Gybing an Assym off a standard pole.  How?    Do you temporarily tact the tact to a fitting/anchor/line at bow and switch the pole to the new side? And use 2 sheets on the clew and rotate the sail?  Rotate clew inside or out side?  Or this depends on wind strength?

Thanks

exactly.

We have a 2:1 strop tacked forward of the forestay, so the maneuver is pole forward, transfer to strop, lose the guy and pole, gybe (inside or out, depending on breeze, attach new guy, on pole, crank it back.

Round-the-cans we just use the symmetric. But the Assym get better lift for the same area.

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In NZ back in the day with symmetricals the short handed boats used to run the downhaul to each clew rather than the pole. The block on the deck would be about 25% of j back from the bow to get some width. Then in the gybe you could take the pole off and reste in the shelter of the main, gybe the main and the pole was ready to take the load 

Worked well.

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11 minutes ago, Jono said:

In NZ back in the day with symmetricals the short handed boats used to run the downhaul to each clew rather than the pole. The block on the deck would be about 25% of j back from the bow to get some width. Then in the gybe you could take the pole off and reste in the shelter of the main, gybe the main and the pole was ready to take the load 

Worked well.

I saw this system on a NZ boat at Hamilton Island in the early 90’s, the crew said the system was a trickle down from the AC

The boat might have been called Icefire but it was awhile ago so I may be wrong 

Fun morning watching their crew on the boom/bosun chairs trying to get out of the pen, we just raised the keel and motored away (Scavenger, Inglis 48)

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14 hours ago, carcrash said:

If you ever bring the pole back, your chute is too small. Simple truth.

 

image.jpeg

Nah. My Int 14 has plenty kite, runs centerline, gets up and boogies. My keeler doesn't plane. Needs to square back. Moth sailors would say you don't even need a kite.  Different horses.

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21 hours ago, Raz'r said:

I don't think you're right. I fly assyms off a regular pole, and neither ORR nor PHRF NorCal "penalize" me for this.  They look at max spin size, and that's that. I will say that gybing a standard symmetric on a standard pole is much easier than an Assym off a standard pole. 

PHRF So Cal will penalize a boat designed for a Sym that uses the pole for backing an Asym. It gives you a wider range to go deep when boats designed for an Asym cannot. Unless they have changed  the rule.

I think it is wrong that trying to make an old lead mine competitive be hit.

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1 minute ago, Meat Wad said:

PHRF So Cal will penalize a boat designed for a Sym that uses the pole for backing an Asym. It gives you a wider range to go deep when boats designed for an Asym cannot. Unless they have changed  the rule.

I think it is wrong that trying to make an old lead mine competitive be hit.

agree with you there.

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15 hours ago, carcrash said:

If you ever bring the pole back, your chute is too small. Simple truth.

 

image.jpeg

Please show us pics of your 'J' length spi pole mounted as a sprit and working. You've been claiming this for years

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4 hours ago, longy said:

Please show us pics of your 'J' length spi pole mounted as a sprit and working. You've been claiming this for years

Unfortunately, its still on the list but not done. On my boat. Lots and lots and lots of other boats use J length poles. Dozens in Southern California PHRF alone. And of course, all the hot dinghies, Mini 650s, and multihulls. There is nothing whatsoever unusual about this.

Here is the latest progress to get ready for the sprit:

 

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Please note all the PHRF boats that have a "J" length prodder of any construction. Not a normal length pole mounted on the mast, but the full length out in front of the bow - isn't this what you are preaching?

I'm not aware of any multi with a j length prodder. Lakota for her last T-Pac attempt came close, tho. I'll give you Mini's

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52 minutes ago, longy said:

Please note all the PHRF boats that have a "J" length prodder of any construction. Not a normal length pole mounted on the mast, but the full length out in front of the bow - isn't this what you are preaching?

I'm not aware of any multi with a j length prodder. Lakota for her last T-Pac attempt came close, tho. I'll give you Mini's

I am going to mount my full J spinnaker pole on the bow, for a 2xJ SPL.

I just checked, and you are right -- the 8 longest sprits in Southern California are 1.5J or longer, with the max being 1.8 on a Melges 32, the others being J 70s between 1.66 and 1.8 times J, FT10 at 1.6 times J, and the J125 with 1.5 times J. So clearly, if a boat is light, 2xJ is not needed. If your boat is heavy, like mine (~9000 lbs on 36' LWL or displacement length ratio of 80, vs J125 at 8400 lbs on 37' LWL for a displacement length ratio of 74) then more sprit will be required to avoid needing to bring a pole back. Hence, for my boat, 2xJ seems reasonable.

Other than the Mod 70 with the tack of the downwind sails about 1.7 times as far as the tack of the jib, I don't think I've been on a multihull for 2 decades that did not have 2xJ sprits or longer. Illusion, Bobsled, and Epic out of WYC all demonstrated this geometry, and it made the boats dramatically safer and faster due to lifting the bows. If your bows go down on a multihull, the sprit is too short.

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I crewed on a Ultimate 30 for a year - the sprit was 29' long, so about 5 x J length. (allowing for what stayed within the boat in the tube) We still had to pack the transom downwind in breeze. We broke the pole off Haleiwa in a foto shoot, the tip of the pole was bending up about 3' (or more) when we stuffed it in running as deep mas the spi allowed.  Pole snapped - but these boats had no bobstays/sidestays, just a large thick section. So if a over canvased, extremely long sprit boat puts the bow in I find your claims hard to accept

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On 10/13/2021 at 5:04 PM, carcrash said:

If you ever bring the pole back, your chute is too small. Simple truth.

 

image.jpeg

Or your boat is too heavy.

My boat is 3200 lbs with a very flat bottom. I start to surf/break loose sooner than non sprit boats. I'd love a good 4" sprit  giving my 26' boat a 14' tps. But I would also have to go masthead, making the ISP about 39' with the TPS of 14' makes for a hell of an Asym.

Currently my Sym is about 428 sqft. I cannot imagine how stupidly fast we would be turbo'd out.

Upwind the boat would still be a 26' 3200 lb boat.

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