RobbieB

CORA votes in burgee change. CRW 2021 Open for business.

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5 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

So - you're boring as batshit then and have never been willing to take a risk and try something different?

Figures.

FKT

Yeah my job is boring as shit and involves no risk. Nailed it. 

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3 minutes ago, bodega87 said:

Yeah my job is boring as shit and involves no risk. Nailed it. 

TMI                                 :)

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17 hours ago, bodega87 said:

Pardon me if I don’t take advice from someone with a half dozen failed careers. 

Here's a thread to let SA'ers know where the meet-ups are, where the hottest waitresses are, and which strip clubs have the weakest "hands-off" policy.

I'll start by reminding everyone to find us at Registration today, the BBQ party tonight, or at the Low Country Boil tomorrow at the Resort. We'll be handing out tattoos and wristbands, either of which will get you in to the party on Saturday night at Salty Mike's.

Let's have some fun on the new forum!

 
Don't forget journalist!  Mr. Clean is upset that Charleston elite society turned down  his ladies for membership at Cherokee Plantation Club and is off the waiting list for his daughter's debutante ball. But on the plus side they have an inside track for future employment opportunities when the time comes to get a job at a  'hands on'  establishment.   Hard to believe a Southern Man didn't want him around anyhow.  I bet he fit right in at the neighborhood low country boil parties! 
 
Wonder when it all went bad? 

Posted April 16, 2009
God I love this town. 

 
 
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On 10/24/2020 at 10:47 AM, JohnMB said:

I would expect someone with an engineering background to be better able to differentiate between cause and effect.

Saying that urban dysfunction is spawned by 'woke' seem at best a gross oversimplification, and at worse completely backwards.

Of course it’s a gross simplification. The slide into ever more progressive, policies, and the concurrent deterioration of the urban cores are a feedback loop. Bad policies beget bad results, and bad politicians pander to bad natures. The voters get what they elected. If you live in a blue city, and leaders eschew traditional government for pandering to noisy interests, my condolences. Move or own it. 

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On 10/24/2020 at 10:15 AM, Kent H said:

Look ya all need to stop bustin on Mr. Clean.   He was here MANY years ago.   We are WOKE like a new days sunrise after a cup of Joe!

 

Just a few examples of the MAJOR changes on little ol James Island....   

- There is an African American family that lives in my little development. 

- Yesterday I saw two African Americans shopping at the James Island Walmart..... and they did not work there!!!

- CORA's new Burgee only has one Red Stripe and three white stars on a Blue background.  Big step forward I do believe. 

- The Electric Slide can be played at White Weddings now without fear of arrest... 

- Whites Only Bars have all been shut down - Now it was due to Covid 19 but still ........they been shut down....

 

Would you PLEASE stop dissin'  Senator Graham.  If and only IF he is gay that would make SC the ONLY State with an African American Senator and a Gay Senator.  HOW MUCH WOKE DO YOU WANT???  

The former Governor (Nikki Haley) and the future President of these United States in 2024 is the child of Indian Sikh immigrants.   ( She gettin Big $$ from me ) 

Them good ol boys must have gotten smart when Mr. Clean left.  They now look at a persons opinions vice their skin color...     

..... and I went fishing this morning at a pier and launch site.   FREE to all and it was populated with a nice mix of various races all smiling at a social distancing space of one fishing rod.....what did you do this mornin? 

 

 

 

If you are drawn to something you tend to find it. If I wanted to find examples of good old boys, they are to be had. If I wanted to find “Karen’s” they post on “next door” 

Here in Myrtle, between showers, we tiled the wine cellar we are building under the stairs, and made multiple Home Depot Runs. Folks of all hues doing their thing, not as many Asians as in Silicon Valley, but otherwise indistinguishable. Few Biden signs or other garb, but most folks here are from away and many moved to escape the woke of Blue regions. Multiple houses being built in neighborhood. 

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11 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

Of course it’s a gross simplification. The slide into ever more progressive, policies, and the concurrent deterioration of the urban cores are a feedback loop. Bad policies beget bad results, and bad politicians pander to bad natures. The voters get what they elected. If you live in a blue city, and leaders eschew traditional government for pandering to noisy interests, my condolences. Move or own it. 

we clearly have a very different understanding of what 'woke' is.

Urban cores have suffered from neglect and and decay for a very long time, and i would not personally associate 'woke'(a very recent term) with the policies that started that slide, or even the ones which continued it.

Some of the policies that are proposed and implements do not work, but I cannot see that this justifies not trying.  How would you propose to improve the situation for the millions of Americans stuck in a feedback loop of poor access to education.

 

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51 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

How would you propose to improve the situation for the millions of Americans stuck in a feedback loop of poor access to education.

Simple: 

Prohibit Public Sector unions: break the conflict of interest with politicIans getting funding from people who's salary & benefits they set. That enables accountability for schools and will reduce the power of the public employees who are responsible for providing services. 

Allow parents to have vouchers for using Charter or faith based schools. No more trapping kids into dysfunctional schools, if the school can't gain accreditation, it's administration is terminated. 

Stop government guaranteed/ backed education loans for majors and schools that don't graduate students who can achieve gainful employment. You want a loan, your credit worthiness includes an academic component. Encourage trade schools, and apprenticeships that bring differentiated skills and resulting high wages.

Forget nationalizing health care, nationalize "Barristers". Make all representation in court both civil and criminal based on government paid attorneys. In short take the profit motive out of litigation. Private hire of "solicitors" to advise is still available, but no contingency lawsuits adding transaction costs 

Stop penalizing the best structure for successful children; intact nuclear families.  Don't reward incremental un-partnered  pregnancies, while providing birth control and alternatives to reduce the number of single mother lead families. 

Set the minimum wage to "Zero" to allow the employment of more marginal workers, and provide training and adult education that elevates them from minimal skill jobs. 

Continue to encourage manufacturing, mining, timbering, farming jobs that produce something of societal value. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, LionessRacing said:

Simple: 

 

That pretty much guarantees that you are not thinking hard enough about this.

Whatever else may be true their is no way that "simple" is the proper adjective.

I agree with a number of the things you propose here, but by no means all of them. And clearly some of them are far from simple. I won't debate these point by point with you, because I know that we have fairly divergent views on several of these (though as noted there are some I would agree with at least in part), and I have no expectation that you are likely to change your opinions.

 

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6 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

Allow parents to have vouchers for using Charter or faith based schools. No more trapping kids into dysfunctional schools, if the school can't gain accreditation, it's administration is terminated.

Riiiight. Faith-based schools.

That'd be those who teach the myth of a 7000 year old world and that evolution has less credibility than 'intelligent design' would it?

No fucking way. You want to send kids to fruitcake schools, you should be made to pay double.

FKT

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3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Riiiight. Faith-based schools.

That'd be those who teach the myth of a 7000 year old world and that evolution has less credibility than 'intelligent design' would it?

 No fucking way. You want to send kids to fruitcake schools, you should be made to pay double.

FKT

If they pass accreditation, then they pass. What they teach beyond a minimum curriculum is a parental choice. And currently the parents do pay double, once in taxes for the failing schools, and once in tuition. The less fortunate don't get a choice. The question was to fix the trap of failing schools, you have a better solution? 

 

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8 hours ago, JohnMB said:

That pretty much guarantees that you are not thinking hard enough about this.

Whatever else may be true their is no way that "simple" is the proper adjective.

I agree with a number of the things you propose here, but by no means all of them. And clearly some of them are far from simple. I won't debate these point by point with you, because I know that we have fairly divergent views on several of these (though as noted there are some I would agree with at least in part), and I have no expectation that you are likely to change your opinions.

 

I didn't use the irony font, because it wasn't worth it. 

The answers are simple, they are not "Easy" nor necessarily politically tractable in the current environment.

For the urban environment to make a change as would be needed to enact those and other related changes will be impossible without a major force to push past resistance. 

ironically: The current COVID situation is exactly one of those major forces and it's having profound effects: 

  • The realization that many "Blue" city/state governments are not protecting the most vulnerable
  • the realization that many "Blue"  city/state governments are endorsing the the most violent in their realms
    • Release from prisons
    • allowing months of rioting and looting 
  • The resulting surge in personal firearms, from among the formerly anti-weapon crowds
    • Their shock that they can't just buy a gun and walk out of the store with it, or buy more than 1 a month
  • The requirement to homeschool children, especially in the Blue cities where School have not opened due to craven union teachers. 
    • Parents are seeing the curriculum up close and personal
    • Parents are being forced to engage with their kids instead of delegating their education 
    • Sadly, some parents are less well equipped both with infrastructure, their own skills and time to invest in their kids. 
  • The economic devastation and arbitrary and capricious enforcement of curfews and business closures are foreshadowing what a more complete progressive government would do, approaching Cuba, Venezuela et al in the devastation upon the public. 

 

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46 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

I didn't use the irony font, because it wasn't worth it. 

The answers are simple, they are not "Easy" nor necessarily politically tractable in the current environment.

For the urban environment to make a change as would be needed to enact those and other related changes will be impossible without a major force to push past resistance. 

ironically: The current COVID situation is exactly one of those major forces and it's having profound effects: 

  • The realization that many "Blue" city/state governments are not protecting the most vulnerable
  • the realization that many "Blue"  city/state governments are endorsing the the most violent in their realms
    • Release from prisons
    • allowing months of rioting and looting 
  • The resulting surge in personal firearms, from among the formerly anti-weapon crowds
    • Their shock that they can't just buy a gun and walk out of the store with it, or buy more than 1 a month
  • The requirement to homeschool children, especially in the Blue cities where School have not opened due to craven union teachers. 
    • Parents are seeing the curriculum up close and personal
    • Parents are being forced to engage with their kids instead of delegating their education 
    • Sadly, some parents are less well equipped both with infrastructure, their own skills and time to invest in their kids. 
  • The economic devastation and arbitrary and capricious enforcement of curfews and business closures are foreshadowing what a more complete progressive government would do, approaching Cuba, Venezuela et al in the devastation upon the public. 

 

Grumpy Old Man Anarchy is down the hall and to the right. 

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2 hours ago, LionessRacing said:
  • The economic devastation and arbitrary and capricious enforcement of curfews and business closures are foreshadowing what a more complete progressive government would do, approaching Cuba, Venezuela et al in the devastation upon the public. 

 

oh for fuck sake,

The most progressive liberal agenda in the US would be somewhere slightly right of center in Germany, or most Scandinavian countries.

The outliers on the US left are like the outliers on the US right, exactly that, outliers. We need to stop demonizing either party and understand that one of the strengths of the US system is that we get to test ideas out for 4 years at a time, and course correct when the direction is wrong.

Right now we have my least favorite combination, socially conservative plus spending beyond income. But I know that in two weeks I get to vote and hopefully change that.

 

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Perhaps the most germane oxymoron of the day:  Faith-based schools   

Oh brother  :rolleyes:

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5 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

I didn't use the irony font, because it wasn't worth it. 

The answers are simple, they are not "Easy" nor necessarily politically tractable in the current environment.

For the urban environment to make a change as would be needed to enact those and other related changes will be impossible without a major force to push past resistance. 

ironically: The current COVID situation is exactly one of those major forces and it's having profound effects: 

  • The realization that many "Blue" city/state governments are not protecting the most vulnerable
  • the realization that many "Blue"  city/state governments are endorsing the the most violent in their realms
    • Release from prisons
    • allowing months of rioting and looting 
  • The resulting surge in personal firearms, from among the formerly anti-weapon crowds
    • Their shock that they can't just buy a gun and walk out of the store with it, or buy more than 1 a month
  • The requirement to homeschool children, especially in the Blue cities where School have not opened due to craven union teachers. 
    • Parents are seeing the curriculum up close and personal
    • Parents are being forced to engage with their kids instead of delegating their education 
    • Sadly, some parents are less well equipped both with infrastructure, their own skills and time to invest in their kids. 
  • The economic devastation and arbitrary and capricious enforcement of curfews and business closures are foreshadowing what a more complete progressive government would do, approaching Cuba, Venezuela et al in the devastation upon the public. 

 

Thank god for right wing states like Vermont

 

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4 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

Perhaps the most germane oxymoron of the day:  Faith-based schools   

Oh brother  :rolleyes:

Universities created (with full access for natives and of course, catholic) by Spain in America and the Pacific since the 1500s

❌Twitteando Historia de España a Twitter: "#Universidades fundadas por  España en #América y #Filipinas. ¿Saben vuecencias cuántas universidades  fundaron ingleses, franceses, portugueses, holandeses... en sus colonias?  Cero.… https://t.co/TogBp3chvl"

Now show me what you got...

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Funny thing is how knowledge seems to beget enlightenment, and then the religious zealots step in, often years/decades/centuries later as arbiters of what people believe.

Just ask Copernicus...Galileo...etc 

God deliver us from the likes of Antonin Scalia and Amy Coney Barrett.

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1 hour ago, chuso007 said:

Universities created (with full access for natives and of course, catholic) by Spain in America and the Pacific since the 1500s

❌Twitteando Historia de España a Twitter: "#Universidades fundadas por  España en #América y #Filipinas. ¿Saben vuecencias cuántas universidades  fundaron ingleses, franceses, portugueses, holandeses... en sus colonias?  Cero.… https://t.co/TogBp3chvl"

Now show me what you got...

Looks like a map showing spreading of a virus

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23 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Looks like a map showing spreading of a virus

Wonder if they taught the meaning of "decimation" to all the natives who attended.

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The 'students' of many of those schools were sent out to murder and kill natives who wouldn't convert.   Later, when murder was slightly more frowned upon, those schools sent students out to beat the shit out of natives for speaking their own language.  good times.

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On 10/19/2020 at 8:42 AM, RobbieB said:

I'm sure there's a story.  Nothing printed yet including new burgee design.  I expect something to be sent out soon.  Think the vote happened a couple of days ago.

Is this the new flag?

 

 

F-1249-500x500.jpg

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The 'students' of many of those schools were sent out to murder and kill natives who wouldn't convert.   Later, when murder was slightly more frowned upon, those schools sent students out to beat the shit out of natives for speaking their own language.  good times.

 

1 hour ago, Israel Hands said:

Wonder if they taught the meaning of "decimation" to all the natives who attended.

That's the kind of comments you make when most of your history knowledge comes from Monty Python movies...

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3 hours ago, KC375 said:

Thank god for right wing states like Vermont

  

If you think Vermont is right wing, you should meet Senator Sanders.... 

 

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5 hours ago, JohnMB said:

The outliers on the US left are like the outliers on the US right, exactly that, outliers. We need to stop demonizing either party and understand that one of the strengths of the US system is that we get to test ideas out for 4 years at a time, and course correct when the direction is wrong.

 

When the "outliers" are effectively running the cities in several of the states, and have candidates openly affirming their affiliation and abrogating responsibilities at the state level, it's no longer "outliers". 

Agreed on the demonization, and course correction, and that requires that a losing party gracefully accept it's loss, and work to do better, rather than undercut the legitimacy of the winner with four years of #resistance. When then you have the same party where the fringe has a strong influence on  the platform and on the candidates, they must be taken seriously.

The Anna Navarro  quote is apt: "When someone shows you who they are, the first time, believe them." 

When your cities and states are "Sanctuaries" and your politicians who are only concerned when the rioters come to their streets, you have a real problem. 

 

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2 hours ago, Israel Hands said:

More like show you what those natives got. You've got to be kidding me. 

Well, considering Hernán Cortés conquered a city of 300.000 with only 400 men, maybe all the natives that helped him were pretty  happy to get rid of this:

 

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/feeding-gods-hundreds-skulls-reveal-massive-scale-human-sacrifice-aztec-capital

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The 'students' of many of those schools were sent out to murder and kill natives who wouldn't convert.   Later, when murder was slightly more frowned upon, those schools sent students out to beat the shit out of natives for speaking their own language.  good times.

Were sent to do what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Burgos

 

Mind you, 300 years after these laws were written, the brits were anihilating entire civilizations and the Germans would burn more witches in 30 years than the Spanish inquisition did in 400...

You see the difference?

South America

Bolivia es el tercer país del mundo con más mujeres en un parlamento | CSL

North America

Here's how many days Congress will spend away from the office in 2018

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31 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

When the "outliers" are effectively running the cities in several of the states, and have candidates openly affirming their affiliation and abrogating responsibilities at the state level, it's no longer "outliers". 

Agreed on the demonization, and course correction, and that requires that a losing party gracefully accept it's loss, and work to do better, rather than undercut the legitimacy of the winner with four years of #resistance. When then you have the same party where the fringe has a strong influence on  the platform and on the candidates, they must be taken seriously.

The Anna Navarro  quote is apt: "When someone shows you who they are, the first time, believe them." 

When your cities and states are "Sanctuaries" and your politicians who are only concerned when the rioters come to their streets, you have a real problem. 

 

This is exactly what I mean by demonization. You clearly live in a different bubble to the one I inhabit.

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52 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

Are you a sucker?  Maybe don't believe the bullshit. What do you think they did to the indigenes to convert them? Ask nicely?

They forbade the maltreatment of the indigenous people and endorsed their conversion to Catholicism

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So Boston is both a sancutalry city and an economic dynamo. The illegals are useful for building roofs.
It is more nuanced and complicated than Lioness is suggesting

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28 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Are you a sucker?  Maybe don't believe the bullshit. What do you think they did to the indigenes to convert them? Ask nicely?

They forbade the maltreatment of the indigenous people and endorsed their conversion to Catholicism

It was 1513, half a millennia ago, wtf did you expect? They truly  believed converting to their religion was the best thing that could happen to anyone, and in 1513, considering what the ruling empires in America were doing. especially Inca and Aztec, they were probably right. 

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You are in denial about the role that imposing religion has played on mankind - for the worse. Christian or Muslim, extremism quickly feeds on itself and starts looking the same with the same end result.  It's all about imposing your will on others.

The US founders who wrote the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution in the 1700s were Episcopal deists.  They did not hold Puritan or Catholic views of 'religiosity.'   Very likely they would be shocked and dismayed about what's going on today - that religious zealots would hold this country hostage with a self-serving "originalist" theory about the constitution. 

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Its wonderful to see people  pontificate and judge in retrospect how others should have behaved 4-500 years ago when different norms
were in existence for every possible socio-economic  event or interaction. The world was flat, and many indigenous peoples did not have utensils,
much less formal education and healthcare. These social warrior 'Karen's' completely discount that, and in all likelyhood would be personally doing just as little
then, as they are doing today to rectify current atrocities.  Even more than screaming on a yachting website. I suspect centuries from now descendants will be
demanding reparations for the abuses suffered in places like South Carolina upon their Sailing Anarchy moderator ancestors .     

 

 


 

 

   

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13 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

Its wonderful to see people  pontificate and judge in retrospect how others should have behaved 4-500 years ago

I'm talking about right now. About the flat-earth religious extremists who want to tell us what we can and cannot do.  It's not different from those zealots of 4-500 years ago.

If you don't talk about it, you can't stop it.

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15 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

I'm talking about right now. About the flat-earth religious extremists who want to tell us what we can and cannot do.  It's not different from those zealots of 4-500 years ago.

If you don't talk about it, you can't stop it.

Hmmm.  I’ve been out of the house a couple of times lately. Supermarket, dry cleaners, etc.  Have not run across one religious zealot telling me what I have to do.  Last time was the Moonies in SFO in the ‘80s  but I would just say ‘Fuck right off!’ If they came near. No problemo. 

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6 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

Hmmm.  I’ve been out of the house a couple of times lately. Supermarket, dry cleaners, etc.  Have not run across one religious zealot telling me what I have to do.  Last time was the Moonies in SFO in the ‘80s  but I would just say ‘Fuck right off!’ If they came near. No problemo. 

Do you have a daughter of child-bearing age? Or grand-daughter?

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1 hour ago, Israel Hands said:

You are in denial about the role that imposing religion has played on mankind - for the worse. Christian or Muslim, extremism quickly feeds on itself and starts looking the same with the same end result.  It's all about imposing your will on others.

The US founders who wrote the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution in the 1700s were Episcopal deists.  They did not hold Puritan or Catholic views of 'religiosity.'   Very likely they would be shocked and dismayed about what's going on today - that religious zealots would hold this country hostage with a self-serving "originalist" theory about the constitution. 

I read "originalist" tripe from lots of people who should know better. It is dismaying.

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33 minutes ago, Cristoforo said:

Hmmm.  I’ve been out of the house a couple of times lately. Supermarket, dry cleaners, etc.  Have not run across one religious zealot telling me what I have to do.  Last time was the Moonies in SFO in the ‘80s  but I would just say ‘Fuck right off!’ If they came near. No problemo. 

It aimt the moonies that are the problem....methinks you be trollling.

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2 hours ago, chuso007 said:

It was 1513, half a millennia ago, wtf did you expect? They truly  believed converting to their religion was the best thing that could happen to anyone, and in 1513, considering what the ruling empires in America were doing. especially Inca and Aztec, they were probably right. 

They also thought the Inca jad allcthevgold. So they kiled a bunch of them to getvit.

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4 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

If you think Vermont is right wing, you should meet Senator Sanders.... 

 

I have, but he was a Representative at the time. I briefly had an office in Stowe in the mid 90s...that strangly closed any time there was a good snow fall.

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8 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The 'students' of many of those schools were sent out to murder and kill natives who wouldn't convert.   Later, when murder was slightly more frowned upon, those schools sent students out to beat the shit out of natives for speaking their own language.  good times.

I must have missed something.

You did not quote or preface anyone's post.

Students of what schools? were sent out to kill natives of???
Please quote a previous post or be more specific Mr. Block. This is a Public Court.

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20 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

If they pass accreditation, then they pass. What they teach beyond a minimum curriculum is a parental choice. And currently the parents do pay double, once in taxes for the failing schools, and once in tuition. The less fortunate don't get a choice. The question was to fix the trap of failing schools, you have a better solution? 

 

You start by not making things worse.

Teaching kids things that are counter-factual is making things worse IMO. It's actually worse than not teaching them at all because first they have to un-learn what their authority figure have told them and THEN learn how the world works.

I have no time for religious schools as they're a contradiction in terms. Their aim isn't to actually *teach* so much as to indoctrinate.

Not defending the failure of a lot of publicly funded schools but I see no reason to make things worse. We have an example of where that leads in France at the moment.

FKT

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8 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

I must have missed something.

You did not quote or preface anyone's post.

Students of what schools? were sent out to kill natives of???
Please quote a previous post or be more specific Mr. Block. This is a Public Court.

Historically the white man has been an asshole set on capitol gains.  When you read about Magellan you can see part of his deal was to claim land/territory for the King of Portugal and convert natives to Christianity or threaten to kill them.  Ultimately it got him killed, (which was deserved and unfortunate as he was both brilliant and lucky until he wasn't). Religion has been abused since the beginning of recorded history.  I have no issue discussing religion or talking about what it means to me and how it's affected my life.  However, it's no ones job to go around converting people to Christianity.  It's an individual choice that should be made after having legitimate interest and study. I love when a church does a mission to provide water or help to an area of poverty, (good!) and I hate it when they take that opportunity to try and convert people to Christianity, (bad-IMHO).  When you read the bible, (which is a super difficult read by the way) one of the first things God did was give man "free will" the ability to decide for ones self.  It also says to do good things and expect nothing in return.  I was a member of a church here in Charleston, (part of the episcopal diocese that left the national diocese and has been in court for years since fighting over property...greed) and they decided to make a stand against homosexuality.  I left.  It was sad.  I had some incredible life experiences there and then an emotionally horrible one.  I've experienced both how it can be great and misused.   If you just  look at the bad/crazy/cult like stuff I can see how it's easy to think they/we are all nut jobs.  

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2 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I hate it when they take that opportunity to try and convert people to Christianity, (bad-IMHO)

Even if the "local" religion involves ripping off young virgins hearts out of their chests while they are still alive and later on eat them for dinner?

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/feeding-gods-hundreds-skulls-reveal-massive-scale-human-sacrifice-aztec-capital

 

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13 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

Even if the "local" religion involves ripping off young virgins hearts out of their chests while they are still alive and later on eat them for dinner?

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/feeding-gods-hundreds-skulls-reveal-massive-scale-human-sacrifice-aztec-capital

 

Right cos none of the christians in Spain were torturing, and executing each other in the 1500s in the name of religion.

When was the auto de la fe eventually disbanded?

 

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46 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

Right cos none of the christians in Spain were torturing, and executing each other in the 1500s in the name of religion.

When was the auto de la fe eventually disbanded?

 

Not to mention the centuries of sexual predation. 

How to build a religion where leadership is free to prey on the weak:

Select leaders by accepting only those who agree to live a life without a wife and family.

Make blind faith a requirement of the congregation.

Encourage each member to regularly confess their secret weaknesses to the leader.

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1 hour ago, chuso007 said:

Even if the "local" religion involves ripping off young virgins hearts out of their chests while they are still alive and later on eat them for dinner?

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/feeding-gods-hundreds-skulls-reveal-massive-scale-human-sacrifice-aztec-capital

 

How about the Salem witch hunts?

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3 hours ago, chuso007 said:

Even if the "local" religion involves ripping off young virgins hearts out of their chests while they are still alive

Even then, Christianity is far, far more deadly and far more unethical.   Can't really argue the evidence 500 years later.  Careful, Chuso, your indoctrination is showing.

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7 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Their aim isn't to actually *teach* so much as to indoctrinate.

At the present time in the US, the schools have become a source of indoctrination from the left wing. It started in graduate school 40 yrs ago and has seeped down to elementary. I have no issue with private institutions teaching anything else in addition to the accredited curriculum, be they madrassas or the various sports/arts academies. Public funding should be to support education of the public. If a school can do that by employing volunteers who have taken vows of service and poverty, more power to them. 

 

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2 hours ago, JohnMB said:

Right cos none of the christians in Spain were torturing, and executing each other in the 1500s in the name of religion.

When was the auto de la fe eventually disbanded?

 

 

Don't believe everything you've heard on TV or in the movies because you are probably completely wrong about the Spanish Inquisition... https://thecripplegate.com/how-many-people-died-in-the-inquisition/

William D. Rubinstein summarizes the consensus of modern scholarship:

Nothing in the whole history of the Catholic church did more than the Inquisition to damn it in the eyes of rational, enlightened thinkers, or to give it the reputation for medieval barbarism it held in many quarters until recently. The Inquisition was only formally abolished in the early nineteenth century. Yet it also seems clear that the number of victims of the Inquisition can easily be exaggerated. Juan Antonio Llorente (1756–1823), a fierce enemy of the Inquisition, whose Critical History of the Inquisition of 1817–19 remains the most famous early work attacking everything connected with it, estimated the number of executions carried out during the whole of the period that the Spanish Inquisition existed, from 1483 until its abolition by Napoleon, at 31,912, with 291,450 “condemned to serve penances.” . . . Most recent historians regard even this figure as far too high (William D. Rubinstein, Genocide [Routledge, 2004], 34).

"The conservative approach of modern scholarship can be seen in the writings of Henry Kamen, who is one of the leading authorities on the Spanish Inquisition. His work on The Spanish Inquisition is published by Yale University Press (Fourth Edition, 2014). Kamen’s research has led him to conclude: “We can in all probability accept the estimate, made on the basis of available documentation, that a maximum of three thousand persons may have suffered death during the entire history of the tribunal” (p. 253). Kamen’s estimates may be too low, but they represent the general perspective of contemporary scholars."

 

1 hour ago, Israel Hands said:

Not to mention the centuries of sexual predation. 

WELL OF COURSE!! How didn't I think about that... Because everybody knows sexual predators are a trademark of the 15th century churches, it's not like secular soldiers, lords, knights or kings would ever do anything as outrageous as to look up some peasant daughter's skirt...

1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

How about the Salem witch hunts?

What about them? There's a lot more about superstition than religion in burning witches but yeah.... (Salem witches were not burned, btw, they were hanged)  The real masters of witch burning were the Germans, they burned 25.000, which is about 2 to 10 times more people in 200 years than those executed by the Spanish Inquisition in the 356 that it lasted.

1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Even then, Christianity is far, far more deadly and far more unethical.   Can't really argue the evidence 500 years later.  Careful, Chuso, your indoctrination is showing.

Evidence?? I seriously doubt you care much about evidence, you are what you are and you live how you live  thanks to the fact the you were born in the Western civilization, which is based on Greece, Rome and Christianity it was a long way to go that took many centuries. You might want to check your history elsewhere than movies and t-shirt logos.

I don't go to church, but I sure try to live the way my parents taught me: love and respect others like you want to be respected and loved, and forgive all those who harm you. Damnned Catholics!

Last, why should I be careful, Clean?  I was a happy child, I don't have any hate in me towards any race, religion or ideology,  I do have strong principles based on my culture and experience about what's right and wrong, and I'm free to say it if I so choose to.

 

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3 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

At the present time in the US, the schools have become a source of indoctrination from the left wing. It started in graduate school 40 yrs ago and has seeped down to elementary. I have no issue with private institutions teaching anything else in addition to the accredited curriculum, be they madrassas or the various sports/arts academies. Public funding should be to support education of the public. If a school can do that by employing volunteers who have taken vows of service and poverty, more power to them. 

 

The same here in Spain, left wing indoctrination is incredibly strong now and it's even worse in public universities.

It's a Constitutional right to educate your children according to your beliefs (in Spain), although our Constitution is clearly not in effect right now.

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26 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

 

Don't believe everything you've heard on TV or in the movies because you are probably completely wrong about the Spanish Inquisition... https://thecripplegate.com/how-many-people-died-in-the-inquisition/

 

Why assume I learned any of this from TV. I have not made similar assumptions about your understanding of the Aztec or Inca practices.

You argument that the inquisition didn't kill that many people is a pretty weak one. And as you note that was only one of many ways Christians were killing in the name of their religion.

The fundamental basis of your argument was that christianity was superior to the aztec and inca practices of the time. I don't see how you can support that argument. (without even starting on what happened during the crusades, how many virgins died in the children's crusade anyone?)

 

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59 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

The same here in Spain, left wing indoctrination is incredibly strong now and it's even worse in public universities.

It's a Constitutional right to educate your children according to your beliefs (in Spain), although our Constitution is clearly not in effect right now.

You should join Lioness in South Carolina. You two share myths and a worldview that is popular there, celebrated each night on the Great Screen:

image.jpeg.659664efbc9dc5fdba80dbbcae2495cc.jpeg

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Holy thread drift, Batman!

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37 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

Why assume I learned any of this from TV.   First of all, Iive studied (a lot) of history, so I assume by the things you say that they come from TV, movies, or other sources with similar reliability.

I have not made similar assumptions about your understanding of the Aztec or Inca practices. Of course you didn't, I provided a link from a pretty reliable source, why would you? Here's the link in case you missed it. I can provide other if you need them: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/06/feeding-gods-hundreds-skulls-reveal-massive-scale-human-sacrifice-aztec-capital

You argument that the inquisition didn't kill that many people is a pretty weak one. Don't tell me, tell Henry Kamen, "one of the leading authorities on the Spanish Inquisition" according to thecripplegate.

And as you note that was only one of many ways Christians were killing in the name of their religion. 

The fundamental basis of your argument was that christianity was superior to the aztec and inca practices of the time. I don't see how you can support that argument. Well, if you don't see the difference between Catholicism and human sacrifices and anthropophagy, I don't think I can be of much help to you my friend.

(without even starting on what happened during the crusades, how many virgins died in the children's crusade anyone?)

As you probably know (note the sarcasm here), the Crusades were defensive wars. Islamic expansion (we know a thing or two about this in Spain) had to be stopped somehow.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Even then, Christianity is far, far more deadly and far more unethical.   Can't really argue the evidence 500 years later.  Careful, Chuso, your indoctrination is showing.

I'd say politics has Christianity beat on this one.  Anything can be weaponized.  Christianity is interesting because you have the old testament where God was unforgiving and fairly ruthless then you have the new testament where he about faces in his all forgiving Jesus human form.  Some say this is where King James had his people write in what fit for him.  Either way it is certainly interesting but always a shame to me when people pick and choose parts to weaponize.  However, you can't categorize Christians as bad people just like  you can't categorize republicans or democrats as bad.  The US was formed based on democracy and certain freedoms. Religion being one of them. At the end of the day is it so difficult just to be nice?

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21 minutes ago, Israel Hands said:

You should join Lioness in South Carolina. You share a worldview that is popular there, celebrated each night on the Great Screen:

image.jpeg.659664efbc9dc5fdba80dbbcae2495cc.jpeg

Don't know how much you know about Spanish politics, but things are getting scary here... About SC politics I have no clue, to be honest.

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Just now, RobbieB said:

At the end of the day is it so difficult just to be nice?

Apparently what's happening in Spain (socially) is pretty similar to what's going on in the USA: politic polarization is getting extreme to the point of being very violent. And in Spain this is a well thought, planned and executed plan that started in 2004 train bombings in Madrid. I don't know about USA as I don't regularly follow the news except for occassional headlines, but Spain is very close to being a failed state right now.

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26 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

As you probably know (note the sarcasm here), the Crusades were defensive wars. Islamic expansion (we know a thing or two about this in Spain) had to be stopped somehow.

 

I have no idea how the children crusade was expected to defend anyone against anything.

as for the sack of constaninople in 1204, how exactly did the destruction of the largest christian city of the time help defend anyone?

 

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27 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

I have no idea how the children crusade was expected to defend anyone against anything.

as for the sack of constaninople in 1204, how exactly did the destruction of the largest christian city of the time help defend anyone?

 

AFAIK, the children crusade has more of myth than of reality, but I don't know much about it, to be honest. The sack of Constantinople is considered as one of the biggest betrayals of western history. Not a good example of what the crusades were about.

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54 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

AFAIK, the children crusade has more of myth than of reality, but I don't know much about it, to be honest. The sack of Constantinople is considered as one of the biggest betrayals of western history. Not a good example of what the crusades were about.

It seems to me it was a pretty good example of what the crusades were about, mainly acquisition of power through slaughter of those who were in the way.

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52 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

It seems to me it was a pretty good example of what the crusades were about, mainly acquisition of power through slaughter of those who were in the way.

Yeah well... You are wrong.

Look up the history of islamic expansion, look at what happened in Spain, where the Visigoth culturae was basically anihilated, by the time the crusades started, Spain had been asolated by the muslims for 300 years, Northern Europeans knew what they had to do.

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I'd say politics has Christianity beat on this one.  Anything can be weaponized.  Christianity is interesting because you have the old testament where God was unforgiving and fairly ruthless then you have the new testament where he about faces in his all forgiving Jesus human form.  Some say this is where King James had his people write in what fit for him.  Either way it is certainly interesting but always a shame to me when people pick and choose parts to weaponize.  However, you can't categorize Christians as bad people just like  you can't categorize republicans or democrats as bad.  The US was formed based on democracy and certain freedoms. Religion being one of them. At the end of the day is it so difficult just to be nice?

Why the focus on Christianity – I think most religions fail the value added test. The monotheists do seem particularly evil. And the extremists downright terrifying.

However, not all practitioners are “true believers”

I have a friend who is a VERY orthodox Jew. Seeking to reduce my usual level of ignorance about things I have not experienced I explored the reasons behind his practices. Turns out he has zero belief in god and any of the improbable stories related to god. It just gives him a profound sense of belonging and continuity to follow cultural practices his forebearers have for a few millennia. I learned a lot about cosher practices but more importantly to not make assumptions based on appearances.

Mix religion AND politics to get a particularly dangerous brew. I dare you to identify by sight the differences among the south slaves (Yugoslavia) – the differences that led to Europe’s most recent genocide were principally driven by different brands of monotheism. Most of the leaders of the violence were not particularly religious but did use religious divergence for their own ends.

Why pick on the inquisition...how about the children’s crusade (or any of the crusades). How about the number of people killed based on a disagreement about who was Mohamad’s rightful successor....

 

...If your beliefs don’t yield to independent validation then they are not ready for peer reviewed publication and for sure not worthy of indoctrination

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36 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

Yeah well... You are wrong.

Look up the history of islamic expansion, look at what happened in Spain, where the Visigoth culturae was basically anihilated, by the time the crusades started, Spain had been asolated by the muslims for 300 years, Northern Europeans knew what they had to do.

well some writers would suggest the reconquista displaced a more tollerant and learned civilization ... I wasn't there to observe, but I have read divergent views.

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8 minutes ago, KC375 said:

well some writers would suggest the reconquista displaced a more tollerant and learned civilization ... I wasn't there to observe, but I have read divergent views.

Of course you have,  but "writer" is not the same as "historian". And let's be serious about this, have you seen how muslims behave today? What makes you think they were more tolerant 1.000 years ago?

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10 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

Of course you have,  but "writer" is not the same as "historian". And let's be serious about this, have you seen how muslims behave today? What makes you think they were more tolerant 1.000 years ago?

I suggest you broaden your list of historians.

Some of the most learned and empathetic people I know are Muslims.

And some Muslims I don't know seems to have done some truly horrible things...but then some of the most offensive war crimes of the last few decades have been perpetrated by non Muslims so ....not sure I draw any conclusions

 

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Just now, chuso007 said:

Of course you have,  but "writer" is not the same as "historian". And let's be serious about this, have you seen how muslims behave today? What makes you think they were more tolerant 1.000 years ago?

This is such a bullshit argument.

I know many Muslims today, they behave at least as well as the Christians I know. There are other muslims and christians I don't know well, who appear to behave very badly.

We all KNOW that Christians 1000 years ago were barbaric, but then so were most people. We have no idea what Islam would have evolved into if the history was different. It seems likely that Wahabbism would not have been such a strong force.

 

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4 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

This is such a bullshit argument.

I know many Muslims today, they behave at least as well as the Christians I know. There are other muslims and christians I don't know well, who appear to behave very badly.

We all KNOW that Christians 1000 years ago were barbaric, but then so were most people. We have no idea what Islam would have evolved into if the history was different. It seems likely that Wahabbism would not have been such a strong force.

 

I got to say I try hard to keep an open mind and not prejudge...but when it comes to wahabis I do find it hard to live up to my aspirations...which maybe shows I am as shallow and biased as the next person

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26 minutes ago, KC375 said:

I suggest you broaden your list of historians.

 

Some of the most learned and empathetic people I know are Muslims.

 

And some Muslims I don't know seems to have done some truly horrible things...but then some of the most offensive war crimes of the last few decades have been perpetrated by non Muslims so ....not sure I draw any conclusions

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, JohnMB said:

This is such a bullshit argument.

I know many Muslims today, they behave at least as well as the Christians I know. There are other muslims and christians I don't know well, who appear to behave very badly.

We all KNOW that Christians 1000 years ago were barbaric, but then so were most people. We have no idea what Islam would have evolved into if the history was different. It seems likely that Wahabbism would not have been such a strong force.

 

You are both so politically correct I'm about to start sobbing...

Look, I don't hang around a lot of muslims lately, but I've lived and worked in Saudi Arabia and I've been involved (as involved as to having to hide from bullets) in a terrorist attack by Al qaeda, so you are pushing the wrong buttons with those arguments.

9/11 in NY, 3/11 in Madrid, Charlie Hebdo,... I could go on for hundreds of examples. 

One thing is not being racist and another is being plain blind, ignorant or something worse.

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Well I've already acknowledged my narrowmindedness when it comes to Wahhabis so I empathise with your experience in Saudi Arabia.

I have more empathy for your perspective than you might think. My office was in the area that was evacuated on 9/11, I lost a few acquaintances that day which changed my  life in many ways. I am deeply offended by many actions of Muslim extremists.

My brother who is a much better person than I, has done a lot of post conflict rule of law work including in the Balkans, and Afghanistan among other places. From his time in Tunisia he views one of his greatest failings was that the new constitution begins

Article 1 : Tunisia is a free, independent, sovereign state; its religion is Islam, its language Arabic, and its system is republican. This article may not be amended.

That was a missed opportunity.

As he said “imagine if the French constitution began ...France is a catholic country...how would the world react”

Although I certainly abhor some actions by Muslim extremists I’m not willing to put them in a special category of horror.

I fear the Proud Boys and other US white nationalists are more likely to harm my family.

I abhor the relatively careless US deployment of badly targeted drone assassinations that so often kill the innocent...now that is a really effective recruitment tool for your enemies..

I abhor the Chinese genocide of the Uighur. I abhor Pakistan’s use of religious extremists in its ongoing turmoil with India. I abhor Modi’s cynical manipulation of Hindu violence in India. I abhor (the mostly) Buddhist genocide of the Rohingya partially enabled by a Nobel peace prize winner.

...

So I find it hard to unilaterally declare Muslims a scourge...but pretty comfortable declaring true believers of any flavour a scourge on humanity.

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1 hour ago, chuso007 said:

 

You are both so politically correct I'm about to start sobbing...

Look, I don't hang around a lot of muslims lately, but I've lived and worked in Saudi Arabia and I've been involved (as involved as to having to hide from bullets) in a terrorist attack by Al qaeda, so you are pushing the wrong buttons with those arguments.

9/11 in NY, 3/11 in Madrid, Charlie Hebdo,... I could go on for hundreds of examples. 

One thing is not being racist and another is being plain blind, ignorant or something worse.

Yes there are extremist muslims, but to say that all muslims are extremist is just plain wrong.  To judge all muslims based on the attacks you mention is also wrong.

Yes there are lots of examples of islamic violence and terrorism, as are there examples of christian violence and terrorism. Every time you judge an entire religious group through the lens of those extremist you simply increase the sense of US and THEM and increase the propensity for violence.

I don't excuse islamic extremist for their views and actions, but I certainly will not assume that all muslims should be considered complicit in those actions.

I have no doubt that you would not want catholics or christians in general  to be judged based on the actions of the Warrington bombers and other terrorist acts by Christians.

My views have absolutely nothing to do with political correctness. I could care less about political correctness. 

Feel free to state that Al Queada (and other terrorist organizations) are evil and dangerous, but I have too many Muslim friend and acquaintances to simply stand by while you label them (or their religion) as fundamentally evil or even just worse than you or your religion. For what its worth none of them have ever to my knowledge defended in any way any of the attacks you mention.

I do not consider myself blind or ignorant for standing up for my beliefs. I firmly believe that the divide we should be considering is between extremists who perpetrate terrorist attacks and moderates who do not;  rather than between religions (whichever those might be).

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Not that anyone cares any more, but here's the change:

Quote

The flag of the Charleston Ocean Racing Association shall be a triangular blue pennant with the hoist approximately two third (2/3) of the fly. A red stripe with 4 five-pointed white stars equally spaced thereon shall bisect the angle of the hoist and top side, and proceed downward to a point midway on the bottom side. Separating the red stripe from the blue field on either side shall be a white stripe of a suitable width.

So essentially they've just reversed the colors. Here's a poor representation:

 

newcora.jpg

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