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New winner - boom height/LOA ratio


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54 minutes ago, Zonker said:

new-59-fountaine-pajot-luxury-sailing-ca

Fountaine Pajot Samana 59

I predict the next step in the evolution of big cruising catamarans will be to put the master cabin on the flying bridge and just build it like a wedding cake...

 

Image doesn't show here...

So for everyone else...

Fountaine Pajot Catamaran New 59 | The Luxe Guide Luxury Specialist

Why the fuck is it so damn high?! What is going on?

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The main on these things is more like a steadying sail, like on a fishing boat, to help take the violence out of rolling, should the hapless mariner ever find themselves momentarily beam on?  Up in April, down in October, and keep sheeted hard down 24/7, that's the way to do it. The portion close to people just throws unwanted shade, and contributes very little to roll reduction, so away it goes.  Progress at work, people.

I would get a big tent to surround the upper saloon, then add a small flybridge above.  Or would that be too much?

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23 minutes ago, Training Wheels said:

Personally, I’ve always thought boats like that make great motorsailors. One thing I’ve never understood though, how do you see around the headsail?

Looks like it sheets to the coach roof, so a lookout somewhere other than the flybridge should have better visibility than you would on a standard aft cockpit cat.

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2 hours ago, garland823 said:

Looks like it sheets to the coach roof, so a lookout somewhere other than the flybridge should have better visibility than you would on a standard aft cockpit cat.

So, a cruising boat that always requires 2 people on watch.......

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16 hours ago, European Bloke said:

The only thing they're watching is the level in the bottle and if the ice us running out. Hard to criticise because if I was on that shitter I'd be the same.

You’re certainly correct. I’m sure it sails much better after a copious amount of rum!

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On 10/23/2020 at 2:37 AM, maxstaylock said:

I would get a big tent to surround the upper saloon, then add a small flybridge above.

That would be less flybridge and more crow's nest!

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On 10/23/2020 at 11:37 AM, maxstaylock said:

The main on these things is more like a steadying sail, like on a fishing boat, to help take the violence out of rolling,

This.

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Which manufacturer will be the first to put the master cabin up there? It's the natural progression.

It is doing very close to 10 knots (the wave trough amidships, single wave along the waterline cresting at the transom or so). Not bad for a totally empty 60' cruising cat in a strong breeze with an assymetric spinnaker.

sqrt (59) x 1.34 = 10.3

 

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

Which manufacturer will be the first to put the master cabin up there? It's the natural progression.

It is doing very close to 10 knots (the wave trough amidships, single wave along the waterline cresting at the transom or so). Not bad for a totally empty 60' cruising cat in a strong breeze with an assymetric spinnaker.

sqrt (59) x 1.34 = 10.3

 

Not entirely sure that's not a render. They're getting a lot better nowadays. Look at soft surfaces, like sail packs. Realism gets a bit lazy there. The asym detail is oddly fuzzy at the clew end as well.

... and that way you could graphically dial in any speed you'd like ;-)

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11 hours ago, Zonker said:

Which manufacturer will be the first to put the master cabin up there? It's the natural progression.

It is doing very close to 10 knots (the wave trough amidships, single wave along the waterline cresting at the transom or so). Not bad for a totally empty 60' cruising cat in a strong breeze with an assymetric spinnaker.

sqrt (59) x 1.34 = 10.3

 

But pretty fast for a three story condominium

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Anyone have any experience with how horrible the visibility is from up there under sail?
It looks like you would have about 120deg of blind spot with that gennaker up and close to 90 with the genoa! With one helm on center you'd barely be able to see anything to leeward and by the time you take leeway into account it looks like you wouldn't even effectively see in the direction you are sailing!
That shot at 0:15 in the video is concerning!

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17 minutes ago, Airwick said:

Anyone have any experience with how horrible the visibility is from up there under sail?
It looks like you would have about 120deg of blind spot with that gennaker up and close to 90 with the genoa! With one helm on center you'd barely be able to see anything to leeward and by the time you take leeway into account it looks like you wouldn't even effectively see in the direction you are sailing!
That shot at 0:15 in the video is concerning!

As you can tell from the video the boat comes with wait staff. Once your manservant has done the washing up he can play lookout for you. The all black staff uniform is chic. Do You suppose it would be uncomfortable in the tropics?

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17 hours ago, Airwick said:

Anyone have any experience with how horrible the visibility is from up there under sail?
It looks like you would have about 120deg of blind spot with that gennaker up and close to 90 with the genoa! With one helm on center you'd barely be able to see anything to leeward and by the time you take leeway into account it looks like you wouldn't even effectively see in the direction you are sailing!
That shot at 0:15 in the video is concerning!

Maybe front camera is standard? Aft camera is at least 980€ extra.

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My comment was a wonder at this whole thing. A flying bridge and bow thrusters on a catamaran is a joke. One literally has to have a lot of money and refuse to do any home work to buy something like this. Now the whole thing comes down to safety. If one is going to buy something like this, what is their sailing ability? I am amazed that this is even on the market.

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On 12/14/2020 at 8:10 PM, Airwick said:

Anyone have any experience with how horrible the visibility is from up there under sail?
It looks like you would have about 120deg of blind spot with that gennaker up and close to 90 with the genoa! With one helm on center you'd barely be able to see anything to leeward and by the time you take leeway into account it looks like you wouldn't even effectively see in the direction you are sailing!
That shot at 0:15 in the video is concerning!

I sail regularly on 6mr class boats (with the boom below my head and a 185% genoa) so I find the view from that sailing apartament quite impressive...

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13 hours ago, Zonker said:

I'm sure it's for the crewed charter market. So a pro crew. Honestly bow thrusters are not that important if your two main engines are 25' apart. Lots of turning ability.

Yup, the video showed them on a perfect point of sail, with the perfect amount of canvas to move the boat, and perfectly flat seas. Just looking at that boat and how it's setup, it's gonna need a full time crew just to keep that thing fixed.  Has to have a Genset that runs every 6-12 hours to charge the batteries. Does not look to have a single solar panel.

Can exit your cabin without going thru the salon, dango, another opening. Has a forward cockpit and virtually no net.  That boat can ONLY be used as a charter boat.

If we had some decent marketing we'd have more females in sailing. On our boat it simply does not work that way. My wife is also not afraid of offshore passages either. Imagine having to reef the main, or get to that boom in 6-8 ft seas. Frigging death defying.

As for the thruster, I will have one on the next boat, mainly for tight docking. I can swing the 57 around in a marina, but  if there is any wind or current getting the nose to move in the right direction can be sporty!!! Need a little speed to make it go straight.

 

 

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5 hours ago, mpenman said:

As for the thruster, I will have one on the next boat, mainly for tight docking. I can swing the 57 around in a marina, but  if there is any wind or current getting the nose to move in the right direction can be sporty!!! Need a little speed to make it go straight.

Speaking of your next boat, I got rolled like you read about by Skylark today sailing between Bequia and St. Vincent. That boat is quick!! Very odd to see a pinhead main on a cat, though  

 

 

A22F332B-DE05-42F1-A91C-FD5B6A617935.jpeg

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18 hours ago, soma said:

Speaking of your next boat, I got rolled like you read about by Skylark today sailing between Bequia and St. Vincent. That boat is quick!! Very odd to see a pinhead main on a cat, though  

They're heading to St Barth's I believe. We'll have the exact same sail plan except carry an A3 or similar off the sprit. I thought it was more of a blade main.

That boat is wicked fast. Alan is averaging 300 mile days with ease, but it is 72 feet long. The boat has very little hump in it, it just keeps accelerating until it gets way too sporty.

Kenneth and I sailed with Alan in Bequia and we had that boat doing an easy 20 knots, it just did not feel like you were going fast until you looked at the wake. It's a little unnerving at first. Very excited to see what the pShip will do.

How you all doing? You're in one of my favorite areas!!!

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  • 1 month later...
1 minute ago, soma said:

My favorite part is the 4 solar panels. That’s a cute fig leaf. Like it won’t have a generator running 24/7...

that pic should be right by the definition of "condomaran" in the dictionary

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17 hours ago, soma said:

My favorite part is the 4 solar panels. That’s a cute fig leaf. Like it won’t have a generator running 24/7...

Singlehanded sailor delivered a Sunreef 74 and said it did okay up to about 10 knots. Could not go longer than 2 hours without running the genset. Had like 14 fridges on it.

My only question is WHY? Why not just purchase a motoryacht.

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  • 1 month later...

Maybe we're seeing this all wrong, from an environmental point of view.  A generation ago, condomaran owner would have been global jetting, cruise linering, driving jeeps over pristine wildernesses, or chaving about in a 5000hp flybridge penis extension.  Now they timeshare in a condomaran.  So the environmental footprint of a condomaran is still pretty epic, but in another sense it is a low power displacement mode motor cruiser, with wind assist.  The energy savings and toxic discharges can be addressed over time.  They are not as pretty as a swan, or safe out of site of land, they don't make good hurricane shelters, these are unimportant features to the target market.  Don't get me wrong, I hope I never have to set foot on one, or have one attempt to park next to me, just saying.

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On 3/8/2021 at 10:10 PM, vokstar said:

Holly shit someone bought one, Thought it would stay a render but it's been built looking at the photos. 

https://au.yachtworld.com/boats/2021/catamaran-moon-yacht-60-3734148/

I am suspicious when the photos have been taken at night.  Are they hiding poor finish quality?

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6 hours ago, unShirley said:

I am suspicious when the photos have been taken at night.  Are they hiding poor finish quality?

I wouldn't be at all surprised... I hope someone does a walkthrough on it and see a video of it sailing. 

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  • 1 month later...

This absolute monstrosity just turned up in Palma to try and claim the thread title win. I think it also claims the new 'forward windage to LOA ratio' prize

20210429_125330.jpg

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1 hour ago, NZK said:

This absolute monstrosity just turned up in Palma to try and claim the thread title win. I think it also claims the new 'forward windage to LOA ratio' prize

20210429_125330.jpg

I'm speechless.

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Here kid, here's a ruler. Use it. Don't bother with those fancy curve things. 

The kid snuck one curve in to the top of the cabin. 

But blech. Imagine everywhere you go, people point at your boat and say "My Eyes!"

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

Here kid, here's a ruler. Use it. Don't bother with those fancy curve things. 

The kid snuck one curve in to the top of the cabin. 

But blech. Imagine everywhere you go, people point at your boat and say "My Eyes!"

Be nice - there's a 45 degree slice off the bow and stern to help the lines flow!

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10 hours ago, NZK said:

This absolute monstrosity just turned up in Palma to try and claim the thread title win. I think it also claims the new 'forward windage to LOA ratio' prize

20210429_125330.jpg

I didn’t realise that Lego was being used as an acceptable boat building material nowadays :huh:

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

Where they drawn with the ruler? Yes they were. 

One car reviewer described the Volvo 240 as having been designed with an etch-a-sketch.  I think that boat came from the same design house!

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On 4/29/2021 at 9:03 PM, socalrider said:

One car reviewer described the Volvo 240 as having been designed with an etch-a-sketch.  I think that boat came from the same design house!

PortbowVolvo.jpg.0411622a316194380402dabfd25f022b.jpg

Way nicer...

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On 10/23/2020 at 10:59 PM, teamvmg said:

That would be a good looking boat without the top floor.

No, no it wouldn't.  Without the penthouse level it would still be hideous - with the penthouse it is actually repellent!

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On 4/29/2021 at 10:29 PM, NZK said:

This absolute monstrosity just turned up in Palma to try and claim the thread title win. I think it also claims the new 'forward windage to LOA ratio' prize

20210429_125330.jpg

That one made me barf!

JFC - who could even conceive that?

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Those sunreefs are all about the interior.  And the interiors do look nice. 

The yard clearly has skill, so why don't they make anything that is in a performance cruiser line?

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15 hours ago, NedZepplin said:

Those sunreefs are all about the interior.  And the interiors do look nice. 

The yard clearly has skill, so why don't they make anything that is in a performance cruiser line?

Sail that boat in 25+ winds and watch all the deck joints and cabinetry.

Building condomaran skills, yes, boats that sail and will get you thru a hurricane, ahh nope!!!

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On 5/3/2021 at 6:19 AM, NedZepplin said:The yard clearly has skill, so why don't they make anything that is in a performance cruiser line?

Ask a Sunreef owner and they’ll tell you it IS a performance cruiser! 

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5 hours ago, soma said:

Ask a Sunreef owner and they’ll tell you it IS a performance cruiser! 

or so they were told...

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I think that if you compare the righting moments to the rig specifications you will find that on large sailing condomarans the rig will carry away before they fly a hull which is actually pretty safety conscious for folk who were told and believe they own a performance cruiser.

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Even those condomarans will outsail a similar normal mono in most conditions where its windy - if they are sailed well - and have goods sails, clean hulls and folding propeller. 

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23 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Even those condomarans will outsail a similar normal mono in most conditions where its windy - if they are sailed well - and have goods sails, clean hulls and folding propeller. 

On all points of sail? I'm not too sure.

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On 5/4/2021 at 10:57 PM, boardhead said:

I think that if you compare the righting moments to the rig specifications you will find that on large sailing condomarans the rig will carry away before they fly a hull which is actually pretty safety conscious for folk who were told and believe they own a performance cruiser.

I see how you wrote that, and it's 100% true. They simply don't know what they don't know.

 

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19 hours ago, Misbehavin' said:

On all points of sail? I'm not too sure.

Not upwind. Here's a polar for a Lagoon 440 below. For those who have never read one, the curves are for different true wind strengths. So I picked the 20 knots curve (marked with red arrow bottom left)

Then follow that curve till you find the point that is highest on the curve. That is the point of sail with best VMG to windward. This is marked with a red "X"

Notice the angle on the numbers just a bit above the curve. The point is between 50° and 60°. It is very close to the 60 degree line. Let's call it 58 degrees to be kind.

Follow the purple line down to the horizontal line under the red "X". 

That is the speed the boat is going. About 8.3 knots.

So in 20 knots of wind the boats best point of sail is 58 degrees TWD at 8.3 knots.

Plug it into a VMG calculator   https://l-36.com/polar_calculate.php?flag=30&flagw=10&tail=15&wdir=58&wd=T&wspeed=20&ws=T&bs=8.3

and you get a 4.4 knot VMG. That sucks.
 

I bet a Catalina 30 can sail at 45 TWD, 6.3 knots in 20 knots of wind, you get 4.45 knots VMG.

 

image.png.8a598935c16e64fafdc2e16d53df2bb2.png

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