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New winner - boom height/LOA ratio


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The folks at racetrack.org.nz have produced this interesting cross reference doc, which basically compares how different boats compare under different rating systems, based on observed performance at different regattas. 

boat_ratings.csv

The fastest Lagoon 420 on this list rates 168 in PHRF, compared to say the Catalina 42, which rates from 96 to 117. 

The only larger production cats that consistently rate faster than a Catalina 42 are the Gunboats, Outremer 5x, Sig 45, and Dazcats.

But you could also argue that those aren't typical production condomarans either, not to mention that the Gunboats and Outremer 5X are significantly larger.

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Seriously, comparing rating between cats and monos is bullshit.

You want room, comfort and be able to leave the flower vase on the table, get a cat.

You want to leave the wife at home and race with the boys, get a mono that rates.

This unending cat-mono thing is fucking boring.  I've sailed on both and they are different for a reason, they are each good at different things.

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This isnt about cats vs monos - but the bashing of condomarans - that they are totally hopeless for anything that lying at anchor and have a party - point is you can sail pretty fast past an ocean and having a party... The people that have tried to sail an ocean on the flybridge of a cat like it a lot... 

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14 minutes ago, SeaGul said:

This isnt about cats vs monos - but the bashing of condomarans - that they are totally hopeless for anything that lying at anchor and have a party - point is you can sail pretty fast past an ocean and having a party... The people that have tried to sail an ocean on the flybridge of a cat like it a lot... 

Yeah?  So have you heard of Super Yachts?

Why pick on just the multihull versions?

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1 hour ago, Randorm said:

Yeah?  So have you heard of Super Yachts?

Why pick on just the multihull versions?

This is the multihull forum - superyachs is another matter.... 

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6 hours ago, Randorm said:

Seriously, comparing rating between cats and monos is bullshit.

You want room, comfort and be able to leave the flower vase on the table, get a cat.

You want to leave the wife at home and race with the boys, get a mono that rates.

This unending cat-mono thing is fucking boring.  I've sailed on both and they are different for a reason, they are each good at different things.

I totally disagree. You CAN have both performance and comfort with a cat. Most cat manufacturers also advertise both performance and comfort, and that’s BS in most cases. But claiming you CAN’T have both on a cat is either ignorant or trolling. 
 

 

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7 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Some good result to look at to compare is the ARC results. There the best Lagoons show very good performace against relatively fast and big monos. 

 

https://www.worldcruising.com/arc/arc_2020_eventresults.aspx?eventid=126

 

 

Tough comparison, though. The monos generally don’t motor, the “top” cats motor a lot generally. When we did the ARC we chose to NOT motor, but we were the only cat with 0 hours motoring. 

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Also the ARC is mostly downwind it tradewinds, which is the Condomaran's happy place. Most perform quite poorly upwind because of the high windage and inefficient underwater appendages.
It just means that most of them end up motoring when they have to go upwind, which on a well planned cruise shouldn't be that often. I'm not saying they are not fit for purpose and would personally much rather sail on a Lagoon than a Bavaria but I acknowledge they do not sail well upwind, especially if lighter breeze. 

If you are going to have to sail upwind, then it would be a lot nicer for comfort if you could do it when it's blowing 10kt rather than need 15-20 to get moving which is going to be uncomfortable. That's where the Neels get points but the draft is an issue, wait, wrong thread!

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Performance cats will do close to wind speed up to 42/43 apparent. Less than that and speed falls off slightly, but not as much as you would think.

Downwind or with the wind >135 awa is a cats worst point of sail., even a performance cat.

I thought some boats were not penalized for motoring in the ARC?

Motors are noisy and just plain 'ol no fun. Turning them off and just sailing is nirvana!!

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2 hours ago, soma said:

Most cat manufacturers also advertise both performance and comfort, and that’s BS in most cases.

This is exactly why I pasted the rating spreadsheet. 

I bought into the condomaran marketing rhetoric for a long time, and mistakenly assumed that monos are always slow and multis are always fast.

However I have come to realize that in order to get decent sailing performance out of a cruising cat you have to be very discerning and selective.  

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Its relative - a std Bavaria comes with sail that are very cheap and bad. The cats have slightly better sails - bec they must take much more righting moment.  These big cats -have great stability and relatively slim hulls and sharp compared to monos. If you dont box in the flybridge - have saildrive and upgrade the sail - and sail it active they will at least outsail  similar monos same lengt - event upwind - and in great comfort. I dont think that concept is wrong - I even like it. 

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3 hours ago, gspot said:

This is exactly why I pasted the rating spreadsheet. 

I bought into the condomaran marketing rhetoric for a long time, and mistakenly assumed that monos are always slow and multis are always fast.

However I have come to realize that in order to get decent sailing performance out of a cruising cat you have to be very discerning and selective.  

Well, actually all you really have to do is find a catamaran that's designed to sail very, very well 1st, and then do all the stuff your non sailing, decision making, partner, wont give up about living onshore, 2nd.  

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3 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Its relative - a std Bavaria comes with sail that are very cheap and bad. The cats have slightly better sails - bec they must take much more righting moment.  These big cats -have great stability and relatively slim hulls and sharp compared to monos. If you dont box in the flybridge - have saildrive and upgrade the sail - and sail it active they will at least outsail  similar monos same lengt - event upwind - and in great comfort. I dont think that concept is wrong - I even like it. 

Im not sure how much time you spend on the water, but virtually nothing you said above is correct. 

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1 hour ago, Keith said:

However I have come to realize that in order to get decent sailing performance out of a cruising cat you have to be very discerning and selective.  

Yeah really?

Most cruisers don't give a fuck about that stuff.  They care about cruising in comfort.

I can tell you that living your life with you house tilted and shit falling out of cupboards is less preferable.  Show me a cruiser who does not want their kitchen to be horizontal.  Show me a cruiser who would not like the option of easily beaching the fucker for a quick scrub.  Show me the cruiser who would not like to sneak into anchorages that have less that 1.5m depth, particularly to go up creeks in a blow or to escape a cyclone.

So all this chatter about performance is complete bullshit, misses the point and feeds into the racers mindset.  You want to talk about racing performance then let's do that.  But as soon as you start talking about cruising, throw all those numbers out the porthole, because they are not important.

 

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15 minutes ago, Randorm said:

So all this chatter about performance is complete bullshit, misses the point and feeds into the racers mindset.  You want to talk about racing performance then let's do that.  But as soon as you start talking about cruising, throw all those numbers out the porthole, because they are not important.

For me, and at least few other people on here who have cruised with performance oriented catamarans, that is simply not true. We also cared about sailing while cruising. In particular the ability to sail in light winds and not turn on the engines made a big difference to our enjoyment of the time we were moving between places. Not to say a Lagoon isn't a perfectly fine boat, I just would not enjoy it as much cruising as I would a more performance oriented cat with some light wind sails, though I would definitely take it in preference to a Bavaria which is another perfectly fine boat for many. When we were crossing the Pacific we were in company with a similar sized Lagoon on a few passages, and our passage times were about the same, but our engine running times were dramatically different. We were both very happy with our choices.

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We sailed a 30-mile downwinder yesterday. We were hitting the high teens in 20 knots of breeze. I loved it! I talked to a guy on a Leopard 58 today and he said the only time they topped 10 knots was a mistake and they were terrified. He’s got 3x the interior volume, but we have as much room as we need (on a “small” 55’). 
 

For all you folks saying performance doesn’t matter, I think you’re in the wrong forum. SA isn’t really a crowd that shrugs about performance. Im not saying get lost...I’m just saying read the room. 

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3 hours ago, Randorm said:

Yeah really?

Most cruisers don't give a fuck about that stuff.  They care about cruising in comfort.

I can tell you that living your life with you house tilted and shit falling out of cupboards is less preferable.  Show me a cruiser who does not want their kitchen to be horizontal.  Show me a cruiser who would not like the option of easily beaching the fucker for a quick scrub.  Show me the cruiser who would not like to sneak into anchorages that have less that 1.5m depth, particularly to go up creeks in a blow or to escape a cyclone.

So all this chatter about performance is complete bullshit, misses the point and feeds into the racers mindset.  You want to talk about racing performance then let's do that.  But as soon as you start talking about cruising, throw all those numbers out the porthole, because they are not important.

 

Hey Randorm, you quoted the wrong person. That's Gspots writing. Not mine.

But you knew that right?

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Some of the most fun I ever had was, sailing on and off my anchor or mooring at Musket cove, in a light breeze, a double reefed main, and your slip sliding quietly away through the anchorage, under complete control. 

The look on someones face from their cockpit while anchored, when you sail past up wind of them,  and out of the anchorage and say a nice quiet good morning as you slid by, was priceless.

For me its very good sailing catamaran 1st, and everything else 2nd.

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3 hours ago, Keith said:

Hey Randorm, you quoted the wrong person. That's Gspots writing. Not mine.

But you knew that right?

Nuh. sorry bout that.

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5 hours ago, soma said:

We sailed a 30-mile downwinder yesterday. We were hitting the high teens in 20 knots of breeze. I loved it! I talked to a guy on a Leopard 58 today and he said the only time they topped 10 knots was a mistake and they were terrified. He’s got 3x the interior volume, but we have as much room as we need (on a “small” 55’). 
 

For all you folks saying performance doesn’t matter, I think you’re in the wrong forum. SA isn’t really a crowd that shrugs about performance. Im not saying get lost...I’m just saying read the room. 

Yeah that's exactly how it is.

People pay a premium for a cat.  Then some of them are fixated on "my boat is faster than the bigger cat".  It's boring.

Why do people who are no in a race continually race the other boat?  Yeah I know it's a well known thing ... but it's boring.  I don't give a fuck anymore, you want to bust your arse go right ahead, I will stick to the plan.

"Oh the other boat had to motor more than we did so I win" ... yeah really?  Fuckin hell.

Have some fun for a change.  Try just sailing the boat you bought and stop comparing to make your smaller boat be better than the guy who had twice as much money as you.

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9 hours ago, soma said:

Im not sure how much time you spend on the water, but virtually nothing you said above is correct. 

Really? So Bavaria has good std sail - cats have not as good. These big cats -have little stability and relatively fat hulls and plump compared to monos.If you dont box in the flybridge - have saildrive and upgrade the sail - and sail it active they will  be outsailed of similar monos same lengt  - and in lousy comfort.  

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6 hours ago, Randorm said:

Yeah that's exactly how it is.

People pay a premium for a cat.  Then some of them are fixated on "my boat is faster than the bigger cat".  It's boring.

Why do people who are no in a race continually race the other boat?  Yeah I know it's a well known thing ... but it's boring.  I don't give a fuck anymore, you want to bust your arse go right ahead, I will stick to the plan.

"Oh the other boat had to motor more than we did so I win" ... yeah really?  Fuckin hell.

Have some fun for a change.  Try just sailing the boat you bought and stop comparing to make your smaller boat be better than the guy who had twice as much money as you.

This thread is useful to me as someone who delivers boats, and helps friends and clients find their next boat. I’m having fun.

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Regulary obtained VMG on a well sailed Lagoon 38 upwind - 5,4kn. The owner claim that he beat the fastest of 5 X-412 upwind on a 16nm course - by nearly 1 hour - wind 10-15ms no reefs upgrades sails. Regatta Fyn rundt Denmark 2009.  Also the upwind track of another L38 in Norway in a regatta (see results) - it was very light at the start and later pretty good wind - 30-40% upwind.  The L38 was sailed singlehanded and had some 10min trouble with a broken sail. Original mainsail. This boat was/is a liveaboard with dingy in davits etc.  

X 41 OD - 2:59:57

Farrier F-82R 3:03:42

First 44,7 3:10:10

Farr 40 ILC 3:11:14

X 35 - 3:15:10

First 40,7 3:20:26

Grand soleil 45 3:19:48

First 45 - 3:22:45

Elan S4 - 3:25:47

Elan 37 - 3:28:46

X 35 - 3:30:16

Elan 37 - 3:30:47

Wasa 38 - 3:33:54

First 36,7 - 3:42:25

Elan 37 - 3:43:10

First 40,7 - 3:45:15

First 40,7 - 3:45:38

Lagoon 380 S2 3:47:58

Dufour 34 perfor 3:50:34

Hanse 320 - 3:52:23

Pretorien 35 - 3:55:26

Contest 46 - 3:58:43 V

Q 32 - 3:59:28

Elan 37 - 3:59:32

Dragonfly800mk2 4:04:56

First 31,7 - 4:07:27

X 119 - 4:11:34

Bavaria 38 AC 4:17:00

Elan 362 - 4:17:14

Hanse 341 - 4:19:12

Albin Cumulus -

4:24:16 Bavaria 46

Cr 4:28:03

Maxi 108 4:32:10

Oceanis 311 - 4:33:33

Benetau Oceanis 393 4:35:56

Wauquiez PS 41 5:02:41

Bavaria 5:03:22

Bavaria 32 AC 01-05 5:03:37   

Skjermbilde 2021-05-09 kl. 17.03.21.png

Skjermbilde 2021-05-09 kl. 17.14.14.png

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2 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Regulary obtained VMG on a well sailed Lagoon 38 upwind - 5,4kn. The owner claim that he beat the fastest of 5 X-412 upwind on a 16nm course - by nearly 1 hour - wind 10-15ms no reefs upgrades sails. Regatta Fyn rundt Denmark 2009.  Also the upwind track of another L38 in Norway in a regatta (see results) - it was very light at the start and later pretty good wind - 30-40% upwind.  The L38 was sailed singlehanded and had some 10min trouble with a broken sail. Original mainsail. This boat was/is a liveaboard with dingy in davits etc.  

X 41 OD - 2:59:57

Farrier F-82R 3:03:42

First 44,7 3:10:10

Farr 40 ILC 3:11:14

X 35 - 3:15:10

First 40,7 3:20:26

Grand soleil 45 3:19:48

First 45 - 3:22:45

Elan S4 - 3:25:47

Elan 37 - 3:28:46

X 35 - 3:30:16

Elan 37 - 3:30:47

Wasa 38 - 3:33:54

First 36,7 - 3:42:25

Elan 37 - 3:43:10

First 40,7 - 3:45:15

First 40,7 - 3:45:38

Lagoon 380 S2 3:47:58

Dufour 34 perfor 3:50:34

Hanse 320 - 3:52:23

Pretorien 35 - 3:55:26

Contest 46 - 3:58:43 V

Q 32 - 3:59:28

Elan 37 - 3:59:32

Dragonfly800mk2 4:04:56

First 31,7 - 4:07:27

X 119 - 4:11:34

Bavaria 38 AC 4:17:00

Elan 362 - 4:17:14

Hanse 341 - 4:19:12

Albin Cumulus -

4:24:16 Bavaria 46

Cr 4:28:03

Maxi 108 4:32:10

Oceanis 311 - 4:33:33

Benetau Oceanis 393 4:35:56

Wauquiez PS 41 5:02:41

Bavaria 5:03:22

Bavaria 32 AC 01-05 5:03:37   

Skjermbilde 2021-05-09 kl. 17.03.21.png

Skjermbilde 2021-05-09 kl. 17.14.14.png

Yeah, no. Assuming you mean a Lagoon 380, which I'm pretty sure you do -  I've twice bareboat chartered one of those in the Caribbean, three weeks of cruising total. Even allowing for crappy sails, getting the boat to go 5.4 knots in any direction was rare, let alone actual VMG upwind. Let's see the tide/current table to go with that plotter screenshot!

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18 hours ago, soma said:

We sailed a 30-mile downwinder yesterday. We were hitting the high teens in 20 knots of breeze. I loved it! I talked to a guy on a Leopard 58 today and he said the only time they topped 10 knots was a mistake and they were terrified. He’s got 3x the interior volume, but we have as much room as we need (on a “small” 55’). 
 

For all you folks saying performance doesn’t matter, I think you’re in the wrong forum. SA isn’t really a crowd that shrugs about performance. Im not saying get lost...I’m just saying read the room. 

Exactly!!!!,  which meant you were either using an A sail derivative or a spinnaker and the main with a reef. What did you have up?

This talk about not being able to have a performance catamaran is foreign to me. Chris White, Gunboat, Outremer, Maursuadon Composite, Balance, HH, McConaghy and a few other brands can all sail well and are awesome boats to live on.

Condomarans are not that great to live on if you're doing the work. They have condo thinking and are not smart about what's useful and nice and what quickly becomes a serious pain in the ass. Hint, genset is one of them.

 

Being able to out sail a squall is a definitely plus. A great example .......sailing from the BVI to Sint Maarten with Soma, Dutch side had a serious squall coming in, he was smart and tacked back out to the French side, I followed. We did not even get wet.

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19 hours ago, Randorm said:

Yeah really?

Most cruisers don't give a fuck about that stuff.  They care about cruising in comfort.

I can tell you that living your life with you house tilted and shit falling out of cupboards is less preferable.  Show me a cruiser who does not want their kitchen to be horizontal.  Show me a cruiser who would not like the option of easily beaching the fucker for a quick scrub.  Show me the cruiser who would not like to sneak into anchorages that have less that 1.5m depth, particularly to go up creeks in a blow or to escape a cyclone.

So all this chatter about performance is complete bullshit, misses the point and feeds into the racers mindset.  You want to talk about racing performance then let's do that.  But as soon as you start talking about cruising, throw all those numbers out the porthole, because they are not important.

 

So your basic stance is "slow is fun and I don't mind motoring when wind & seas are light, as long as I'm as comfortable as my house". What you're missing is that fast is fun, and actually sailing in mild conditions instead of motoring is really fun, and you can have both of those things and still have high WAF (wife appreciation factor). It just costs more. Fast, Cheap, Comfortable - pick two, or pony up for all three.

I think GPS has enabled a lot of people to go cruising who would be driving an RV if they had to develop pre-GPS navigational skills. Prompted by tropical beach fantasies and Youtube channels, and with little or no sailing background, they just want it to be as easy and comfortable as the brochure, I get it. The reality is different, and cruising under sail isn't for everyone, and offshore cruising definitely isn't for everyone. 

In the end, people who really don't care about actually sailing would probably have a much better experience on a trawler.

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13 minutes ago, CapDave said:

So your basic stance is "slow is fun and I don't mind motoring when wind & seas are light, as long as I'm as comfortable as my house".

My stance is that many live-aboards have arrived there after some racing experience at some time before they got the boat.  They take the 'my boat is faster than your boat' attitude with them, when they should just chill and enjoy it.  But they don't.

As far as I know, no designer deliberately makes a slow boat for no good reason.  It is carefully designed for a specific purpose.  That purpose could be to be able to remain intact after being dragged off a coral reef.  It could be to be to be almost impossible to capsize.  It could be to be comfortable and able to supply the needs of people who bring more luggage than a kit bag with them.  But then other sailors righteously point out that their over powered lightweight skinny hulled home built is faster! 

Who would have thought!?  Gee hey!

Then we keep reading about capsizes or wrecks from groundings that could have been survivable.

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3 hours ago, CapDave said:

In the end, people who really don't care about actually sailing would probably have a much better experience on a trawler.

Man...F trawlers. We’ve got some cruising buddies on a trawler. It’s like the worst of all worlds. No redundancy, no volume, SUPER rolly, slow. Lagoon powercats are a great option for those who want to power around. 

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Also to note in this conversation: the L380 is a bit of an older design and a lot less "condo-like" than some of the newer charter cats. The trend has been to add more and more "features" and comfort resulting in heavier boats with fatter hulls. Sticking a taller mast to compensate only goes so far, especially if you move the boom up 6ft to add another "story"!

All this to say that the L380 is still on the "performance" end of the condomaran spectrum. But there is definitely a wide range in the price/performance/comfort triangle, the the Lagoons being pretty firmly optimized for the comfort/$ and, Gunboats on the performance/comfort end...
 

I can't afford any of these anyway so it's a moot point but my personal choice would tend a bit more towards the performance side as not being to sail properly in 10kt of wind would be a bit frustrating!

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1 hour ago, soma said:

Man...F trawlers. We’ve got some cruising buddies on a trawler. It’s like the worst of all worlds. No redundancy, no volume, SUPER rolly, slow. Lagoon powercats are a great option for those who want to power around. 

Well I have a grand total of 0 hours of trawler experience. Only time I've been on (aside from ferries) a power boat bigger than a big tender was as navigator for an Atlantic crossing (Monte Carlo to Antigua) on a 153' Oceanfast - which I believe was the first ever ocean crossing by a water-jet powered yacht. Hated it. 

Sometimes I think about the boat I want when I'm older and less inclined to mess about with sails. And after thinking all the way around the circle, I come back to the boat I have. We have a 1,000 mile range under power at 7 knots on one engine, and we can motor at 10+ with both revved up if we want to burn the fuel. So as we get older save the sailing for more ideal conditions, and motor a little more often. Easy. 

 

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5 hours ago, Randorm said:

My stance is that many live-aboards have arrived there after some racing experience at some time before they got the boat.  They take the 'my boat is faster than your boat' attitude with them, when they should just chill and enjoy it.  But they don't.

As far as I know, no designer deliberately makes a slow boat for no good reason.  It is carefully designed for a specific purpose.  That purpose could be to be able to remain intact after being dragged off a coral reef.  It could be to be to be almost impossible to capsize.  It could be to be comfortable and able to supply the needs of people who bring more luggage than a kit bag with them.  But then other sailors righteously point out that their over powered lightweight skinny hulled home built is faster! 

Who would have thought!?  Gee hey!

Then we keep reading about capsizes or wrecks from groundings that could have been survivable.

Not to be presumptuous, but I do believe that the Fountaine Pajot Samana 59 was designed with you in mind.

:D

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11 hours ago, SeaGul said:

X 41 OD - 2:59:57

 

11 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Lagoon 380 S2 3:47:58

Are these corrected times or actual elapsed times?  Because they seem to suggest the Lagoon 380 is quite a bit slower.

 

The second photo with apparent wind angle of 28 degrees seems wrong. They have shallow fixed mini keels and can't do a 28 degree AWA unless there is a ton of tide helping them upwind.

The tacking angle from the track is a very consistent 104 degrees (pretty good for that style of cat and consistent with what a typical mini keel VPP shows)

image.png.09f18c33b638422dc54f4e514a5aca76.png

I used this VMG calculator and adjusted boat speed to get the VMG shown.

https://l-36.com/polar_calculate.php?flag=30&flagw=10&tail=15&wdir=28&wd=Ap&wspeed=15.75&ws=T&bs=7.1

I input the 28 degree AWA, wind speed of 8.1 m/s (converted to knots) True and adjusted Boat speed until I got the same VMG of 5.4

.image.png.809fac87cf3ffb88da8eb5ea1510ef57.png

What is shows (red arrow) is a tacking angle of 40.2+40.2 = 80.4 degrees. Most monohulls would be very happy to do that in 16 knots of breeze. A Farr 40 sails at 38.x degrees but it does have a 8.5' fin and has rather low windage. 

I suspect that the wind instruments are not calibrated correctly on that boat. Our 40' cat, which was quite light, had a low streamlined coachroof and 6' deep daggerboards would usually point at an AWA of 32-35 degrees.

 

 

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1846954645_ScreenShot2021-05-09at11_14_45PM.thumb.png.a52f634da3ff11908b838ce69c011bf3.pngHere's a more 'expedition' oriented flybridge cat with a pretty high boom height(though the gooseneck is not sky high, and the rig overall is pretty high). The one good thing about a fly bridge when you're poking around the shore and coral heads, or fishing is  it gives you a good view of what's underwater during daylight. 

What do you guys say? Way too high? Fit for its purpose? Basically a barge and a people mover plus windsurf and fishing platform? Or slightly better than that? 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2014/anton-du-toit-aluminum-catamaran-2935076/

 

 

 

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Zonker: he said that it may be a little current there - with the boat .... and the times are actual times - not corrected.  The X-41OD is a fast boat isnt it? Regatta boat in regatta mote - full crew - 20? sails? The L380 was used as a liveaboard with dingy in davits and sailed singlehanded.  Thats not what talk about that the L380 can beat on a upwind leg. Both these owners are keen and good sailors - the danish one has sailed it round the world - but after he was 70yo. The Norwegian has lived on the boat for years and also sailed regatta with fast monos before. This year has new mainsail: 

Skjermbilde 2021-05-10 kl. 08.34.51.png

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14 hours ago, Zonker said:

I suspect that the wind instruments are not calibrated correctly on that boat. Our 40' cat, which was quite light, had a low streamlined coachroof and 6' deep daggerboards would usually point at an AWA of 32-35 degrees.

I like the sleuthing but the answer could be as simple as 10 degrees of leeway, which wouldn't show up in the AWA output?

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Yeah but his tacking angle of 104 degrees True and 80 degrees according to the VPP. That's 24 degrees or 12.5 degrees per tack.  Yeah, that could account for it. 

So pointing high and going sideways. Doesn't explain the high VMG he gets though.

 

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

Yeah but his tacking angle of 104 degrees True and 80 degrees according to the VPP. That's 24 degrees or 12.5 degrees per tack.  Yeah, that could account for it. 

So pointing high and going sideways. Doesn't explain the high VMG he gets though.

 

VMG is derived from boat speed, not SOG. Also, boatspeed calibrations are hard to get right. 
 

I’ll tweak my boat speed/wind direction heading data and post some AC75-level performance photos. Nothing more convincing than a snapshot of a cherry picked instrument display. 

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On 5/7/2021 at 10:35 AM, gspot said:

The folks at racetrack.org.nz have produced this interesting cross reference doc, which basically compares how different boats compare under different rating systems, based on observed performance at different regattas. 

boat_ratings.csvUnavailable

The fastest Lagoon 420 on this list rates 168 in PHRF, compared to say the Catalina 42, which rates from 96 to 117. 

The only larger production cats that consistently rate faster than a Catalina 42 are the Gunboats, Outremer 5x, Sig 45, and Dazcats.

But you could also argue that those aren't typical production condomarans either, not to mention that the Gunboats and Outremer 5X are significantly larger.

The fastest Lagoon 420 on this list rates 168 in PHRF:  So, approximately equal to a J-24.  Spectacular.  

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On 5/9/2021 at 2:25 PM, soma said:

Man...F trawlers. We’ve got some cruising buddies on a trawler. It’s like the worst of all worlds. No redundancy, no volume, SUPER rolly, slow. Lagoon powercats are a great option for those who want to power around. 

Hey!  We love our trawler, but I understand the hate.  We'd love a multihull but would be talking about probably 4-5x the purchase price and they suck motoring into a swell, which we do a lot here in SoCal.  The trawler is far more comfortable for that I find.  Maybe thinking of the condo cats as modern day motorsailers makes some sense - I spent a long time looking at a Cal 46, and the design brief of a Lagoon 38 or 42 seems somewhat similar (though again, at 4-5x the price)

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Looked at some numbers; the L380 and L410 are similar - but the L440 har signifikant less sailarea/displacement (and flybridge). The Fountain Pajot range from early 2000 and forward has more sailareal/dp than the Lagoons - and less windage it seem - so they should sail better. The Belize 43 seems like an interesting boat... good price - lots of space -10 brts - and some good sailarea - not too heavy. And I like that elliptic interior. The smaller Venezia 42 comes with rotating mast.

Skjermbilde 2021-05-11 kl. 08.23.24.png

Skjermbilde 2021-05-11 kl. 08.24.03.png

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4 hours ago, soma said:

VMG is derived from boat speed, not SOG. Also, boatspeed calibrations are hard to get right. 
 

I’ll tweak my boat speed/wind direction heading data and post some AC75-level performance photos. Nothing more convincing than a snapshot of a cherry picked instrument display. 

Check out YouTube videos, boat tests etc. and you‘ll find (almost) always that BSP is significantly higher than SOG. It takes me 10 sec ‚recalibrating‘ my B&G to show an ‚optimized‘ BSP. :-) What is the motivation for a boat owner / sales man / broker to show a correct (smaller) BSP? Have you ever been on a (non professional racing) yacht with correctly calibrated electronics?

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5 hours ago, Mordoc said:

Check out YouTube videos, boat tests etc. and you‘ll find (almost) always that BSP is significantly higher than SOG. It takes me 10 sec ‚recalibrating‘ my B&G to show an ‚optimized‘ BSP. :-) What is the motivation for a boat owner / sales man / broker to show a correct (smaller) BSP? Have you ever been on a (non professional racing) yacht with correctly calibrated electronics?

You're not wrong but it's bloody stupid to have an incorrectly calibrated log if you want to get a real-time tide reading or ever need to estimate your position by DR

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6 hours ago, SeaGul said:

Looked at some numbers; the L380 and L410 are similar - but the L440 har signifikant less sailarea/displacement (and flybridge). The Fountain Pajot range from early 2000 and forward has more sailareal/dp than the Lagoons - and less windage it seem - so they should sail better. The Belize 43 seems like an interesting boat... good price - lots of space -10 brts - and some good sailarea - not too heavy. And I like that elliptic interior. The smaller Venezia 42 comes with rotating mast.

Skjermbilde 2021-05-11 kl. 08.23.24.png

Skjermbilde 2021-05-11 kl. 08.24.03.png

If you want a decent mini keel production cat look to the Leopards. They routinely stomp the other cruising cats at Heineken. 

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8 hours ago, SeaGul said:

And I like that elliptic interior.

That one isn't too bad because the sofa has actual corners. But try stretching out with a book on this one. Bahia 46. You can't lean back with your legs up because your back has nothing to lean against. There is a reason couches in homes are rectangles.

image.png.644ebfc3b550a0bd9d9de05505c03535.png

Actually we sailed with a loaded Bahia 46 across the Pacific. They were slower than us, but not by a huge amount. 

2 hours ago, soma said:

If you want a decent mini keel production cat look to the Leopards.

You have to be careful - there have been a lot of different ones, by different designers. The early Angelo Lavarnos ones mostly had very, very low bridgedeck clearance. The newer M&M ones were lots better. 

1 hour ago, drakeborer said:

I' d choose my Voyage 480 over the rest of the production cats, including leopard, anyday.  But I guess Voyage is not a true production cat?

Glad you like it. Nice looking boat. Why don't you think it's a production boat; they built lots of them. How's the bridgedeck clearance on them?

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Not sure what the definition of "production" is.  I believe they are on hull 15 or there about on the 480, so certainly much lower numbers than lagoon, FP, Leopard, etc, but certainly higher than the the performance Gunboat, HH, Outremer cats.  Love the boat.  Bridge deck is  sig higher than the original 440 and 500  Real prob is that they don't offer a daggerboard version ;-(  She does well off the wind ;-)

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3 hours ago, drakeborer said:

Not sure what the definition of "production" is.  I believe they are on hull 15 or there about on the 480, so certainly much lower numbers than lagoon, FP, Leopard, etc, but certainly higher than the the performance Gunboat, HH, Outremer cats.  Love the boat.  Bridge deck is  sig higher than the original 440 and 500  Real prob is that they don't offer a daggerboard version ;-(  She does well off the wind ;-)

Minor quibble, Outremer is definitely a production boat with their website claiming almost 400 built.

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Yeah I can see there is some disadvantages with that elliptic interior... 

Recent the Excess 11 is promoted as; "Choosing a catamaran should no longer be limited to choosing between comfort and speed." The boat is 37ft and weight 9 tons Its not the cabin that is the thing here but very hight hullsides.  

 

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