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Amateur couple rebuilds salvage cruiser


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Like watch it before commenting? Have you no respect for internet traditions?  

Sure I would. It's the Chevy of the seas, not a Pininfarina. If you drive it like a rental (Which it was) you'll get wear and tear like a rental. Hitting rocks with boats is bad, as I understand it th

To be fair, most keels are bolted on, the question is, what are they actually bolted TO...

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13 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

And Masons. And lefties and gingers. And the Irish.

Lately you have to add Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos to the list to keep your tin foil hat.

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11 minutes ago, Ishmael said:
15 minutes ago, MauiPunter said:

Lately you have to add Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos to the list to keep your tin foil hat.

And Soros, and UFO's and Bill Barr and lizard people. 

Back in the day, all you had to do was whisper "freemasons" or "jews", and you were in the Conspiracy Club.

Now it's all gotten so complex.  Now you gotta make sure you don't confuse the guy running the lizards, the one using vaccines to implant tracker chips, the dude who has trained a million antifa people as special commandos.  And is Fauci working with the lizards or the UFOs or with antifa?

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8 hours ago, TwoLegged said:
9 hours ago, Ishmael said:
9 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Lately you have to add Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos to the list to keep your tin foil hat.

And Soros, and UFO's and Bill Barr and lizard people. 

Back in the day, all you had to do was whisper "freemasons" or "jews", and you were in the Conspiracy Club.

Now it's all gotten so complex.  Now you gotta make sure you don't confuse the guy running the lizards, the one using vaccines to implant tracker chips, the dude who has trained a million antifa people as special commandos.  And is Fauci working with the lizards or the UFOs or with antifa?

You folks are making this way more complicated than it is. The common denominator is "Democrat". Just take care of them and you've addressed the whole problem.

EDIT: /s

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On 11/16/2020 at 12:59 AM, hdra said:

Is this the boat that got stolen from a mooring somewhere in the Eastern Caribbean a few months ago and then ran aground in PR with the thieves arrested, and actual owners never able to get there as they were overseas and couldn't travel in due to COVID?

I was thinking the same thing when i saw it.  It was moored in Clifton Harbor on Union Island, SVG.  We were anchored close to it just before it was stolen.....  It was in shitty shape at that point.....being ground into a beach didn't help.

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He bought some tubes of west six 10, I assumed that was what it was for, but who knows. The grid was not well stuck down from the factory so the filleting and generous layers of cloth may be sufficient.

I am impressed that they have worked out a detailed lay up schedule and are pretty systematic. I am less sure about compressing the grid down to the hull by wedging old jack stands against the ceiling, but it did seem to work. It may continue to work, until it doesn't, followed by a loud crack as the cabin roof heads skyward. At least standing headroom will increase for man bun clearance.

I still hope, and expect, they will succeed.

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2 hours ago, Alaris said:

Is there a reason not to put any type of adhesive underneath the grid before the glassing?

Depends on what you mean by adhesive. If a stretchy glue like 5200, I'd say no point. The structure won't flex enough before glass bonds start failing before the 5200 starts getting engaged.

If you mean Plexus, Spabond or another rubber toughened epoxy, I'd say yes, it would be worthwhile.

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2 hours ago, Alaris said:

Is there a reason not to put any type of adhesive underneath the grid before the glassing?

Because they ground the flanges off of the grid.. Nothing to put peanut butter under. The scary thing is they jacked the grid down to the hull. The snap crackle pop noises should tell you something.. It's trying to tear itself apart before the glue dries!! 

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22 minutes ago, GH41 said:

Because they ground the flanges off of the grid.. Nothing to put peanut butter under. The scary thing is they jacked the grid down to the hull. The snap crackle pop noises should tell you something.. It's trying to tear itself apart before the glue dries!! 

Curious why they decided that was the correct approach.  The grid should be very rigid.  Did they have evidence that the grid had moved up from the hull? 

Pushing the hull up to the grid while holding the grid in place relative to the coachroof might have made more sense.  Or drilling holes through the hull and clamping the two together.  Easy to fix the holes afterward.

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

Depends on what you mean by adhesive. If a stretchy glue like 5200, I'd say no point. The structure won't flex enough before glass bonds start failing before the 5200 starts getting engaged.

If you mean Plexus, Spabond or another rubber toughened epoxy, I'd say yes, it would be worthwhile.

Isn't that just going to point-load the hull in the various points of random contact? What the hell, staple the edge bits down and call it good.

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6 hours ago, GH41 said:

... The scary thing is they jacked the grid down to the hull. The snap crackle pop noises should tell you something.. It's trying to tear itself apart before the glue dries!! 

If you actually watched the video you would have seen their explanation that the force required to push the grid back down was not that high, in fact she could push it back herself with all of her what, 90 pounds?

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5 hours ago, alphafb552 said:

If you actually watched the video you would have seen their explanation that the force required to push the grid back down was not that high, in fact she could push it back herself with all of her what, 90 pounds?

They didn't mention the cracking noises when she was bouncing on it. They said she almost got it down with her 90#. I imagine the cracking sound was from the grid trying to be pushed somewhere it hadn't been before. Remember the thickness of the original bonding agent? Remember them deciding the grid forward and aft of the bulkheads was GTG? Don't you think the grid was one piece running front to back with the bulkheads tabbed in after the grid was set? What was the mysterious force that raised the grid?  

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16 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Isn't that just going to point-load the hull in the various points of random contact

The new glasswork is going to really distribute the loads well. The extra glue probably will be a bit stretchier than the glass/resin (epoxy resin I hope) so it might not do much than hold the grid in position before glassing. Short answer: probably won't matter too much.

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6 hours ago, Alaris said:

The ridiculous morons with the wooden schooner just put up a new video and — hold on — that boat is only 13 years old?

 

edit: https://youtu.be/P17JwkVhgPM

Against my better judgment I watched most of that one, minus the last forth which appears to be a video selfie. Assuming there was no epiphany, they really don't get it. Big holes in the hull surrounded by worms. There must be thousands of pounds of flora and fauna stuck below the waterline, but they seem to have decided not to scrape the entire hull, to save time and not have to bottom paint? As if there is any antifoul left, if it was ever applied in the first place. I usually want to see projects like this succeed, but someone needs to take them aside and have the comming to Jesus talk.

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31 minutes ago, steele said:

Against my better judgment I watched most of that one, minus the last forth which appears to be a video selfie. Assuming there was no epiphany, they really don't get it. Big holes in the hull surrounded by worms. There must be thousands of pounds of flora and fauna stuck below the waterline, but they seem to have decided not to scrape the entire hull, to save time and not have to bottom paint? As if there is any antifoul left, if it was ever applied in the first place. I usually want to see projects like this succeed, but someone needs to take them aside and have the comming to Jesus talk.

Ummm, it's a wooden boat. In the tropics. It doesn't have copper sheathing. They're not going to scrape the hull and apply a lot of antifouling?

Has anyone mentioned the word 'teredo' to them yet?

To be fair, though, it's probably way, way too late. The hull is likely riddled with them - and gribble - and no way of getting them out really.

So it's a bonfire waiting to happen. Or a new dive site.

FKT

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3 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Ummm, it's a wooden boat. In the tropics. It doesn't have copper sheathing. They're not going to scrape the hull and apply a lot of antifouling?

Has anyone mentioned the word 'teredo' to them yet?

To be fair, though, it's probably way, way too late. The hull is likely riddled with them - and gribble - and no way of getting them out really.

So it's a bonfire waiting to happen. Or a new dive site.

They described how they were going to find the holes and fill the holes ... but they didn't ask why those holes existed.

The whole thing was scarily naive. There was no sign of them considering the possibility that there may some factor causing these holes to appear.   No consideration of the possibility that more holes may exist which have not yet broken through.  They asked no questions about the integrity of the structure.

When the holes are plugged, they plan to take the boat on an open sea trip down the coast.  When that bug-ridded hull starts getting stressed in a seaway, I fear that those weakened structures may open up more and bigger leaks, and may even have a catastrophic failure.

A bonfire would be the best ending for the boat, but I think we are heading for a sinking on passage.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

They described how they were going to find the holes and fill the holes ... but they didn't ask why those holes existed.

The whole thing was scarily naive. There was no sign of them considering the possibility that there may some factor causing these holes to appear.   No consideration of the possibility that more holes may exist which have not yet broken through.  They asked no questions about the integrity of the structure.

When the holes are plugged, they plan to take the boat on an open sea trip down the coast.  When that bug-ridded hull starts getting stressed in a seaway, I fear that those weakened structures may open up more and bigger leaks, and may even have a catastrophic failure.

A bonfire would be the best ending for the boat, but I think we are heading for a sinking on passage.

I have a book here - can't remember the title/author ATM - about a voyage from China to the USA in a junk, apparently to prove that the Chinese could do it. We'll skip over the fact that I have at least 3 other books written by people who actually did this decades prior and skip to the good bit.

They had the boat built in 'traditional' fashion. No antifouling apparently.

Half way across you could *see* nice bright blue pinpricks of light through the planks - and funnily enough it was leaking like a sieve. Great pix showing the problem.

Eventually they had to be rescued. The worms (well, bivalves) won.

FKT

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17 hours ago, Alaris said:

The ridiculous morons with the wooden schooner just put up a new video and — hold on — that boat is only 13 years old?

 

edit: https://youtu.be/P17JwkVhgPM

And it had never been hauled out, go figure...

(I know it was beached at least once, but still)

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36 minutes ago, GH41 said:

They are at it again >> I know nothing about the epoxy they used but I hope they know what amine blush is. Maybe they used slow enough hardener and worked fast enough to avoid problems. 

 

Which one would you fuck?  

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In addition to being in scary bad shape, this boat's design is odd. At first I thought it was some type of local or traditional craft, but the completely open stern area, short spars, and overall look of the thing, does not add up to an ocean going boat despite it's size. A little internet research yielded some photos of very similar looking Brazilian party boats used in the tourist trade. That might explain it's build quality, and why it has two 500 gallon diesel tanks. I hope someone with local knowledge will chime in, but I suspect it is a day use motor boat with an almost decorative rig not meant for offshore work.

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Well it's going to be strong enough- but what a waste of time and materials.  All they needed to do was cut off the flanges then grind an area 6" wide on the bottom and 6" high on the grid and glass it in with some 12" bias tape to match the thickness of the grid sides.  Would be stronger than the original given the increased bonding area- twice the width of the original flanges- for adhesion to the bottom.  But they're getting it done....and I don't see them quitting.  Youth has the advantage of energy and belief in dreams.  Time has a tendency to quash both for those of us with a bit more...experience!  

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On 11/28/2020 at 3:03 PM, GH41 said:

They are at it again >> I know nothing about the epoxy they used but I hope they know what amine blush is. Maybe they used slow enough hardener and worked fast enough to avoid problems. 

I think they said they laid up 10 lams of 1700 in what looks like a single day - probably less since they started in daylight.  So maybe 1 hour per lam - 2 at most.  Amine blush should not be an issue.

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On 11/22/2020 at 2:25 AM, Zonker said:

Depends on what you mean by adhesive. If a stretchy glue like 5200, I'd say no point. The structure won't flex enough before glass bonds start failing before the 5200 starts getting engaged.

If you mean Plexus, Spabond or another rubber toughened epoxy, I'd say yes, it would be worthwhile.

If you use that kind of glue (Plexus, Spabond), is glassing useful  ???

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2 hours ago, 12 metre said:

I think they said they laid up 10 lams of 1700 in what looks like a single day - probably less since they started in daylight.  So maybe 1 hour per lam - 2 at most.  Amine blush should not be an issue.

How did they determine it needed 10 layers ??? Not 8 or 12 ??

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9 hours ago, 12 metre said:

I think they said they laid up 10 lams of 1700 in what looks like a single day - probably less since they started in daylight.  So maybe 1 hour per lam - 2 at most.  Amine blush should not be an issue.

Even worse there was little to no overlap bonding out onto the old structure. It should have been layered out progressively probably beyong the next stringer out, instead it was just butted alongside the old stringers port and starboard. That means the layers bond in a single layer of glass at the meeting of the new to the stringer in the old structure, is the total strength and not the total new lams.

Or did I miss something ?

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There are a few glimpses of notes with details of the layup they wanted, and they actually pre-cut their glass in accordance this schedule. I don't know how much professional input they had in determining this, but they did not slap it on haphazardly.

From the overall tone of their videos, I would understand that they did not elaborate on that subject. After all, their not aiming to be a boatbuilding channel, more of the 'cruising lifestyle' kind. This technical stuff is probably not very interesting for the target market of such channels

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They explained somewhere that they have advice from professionals at least on the serious issues. This guys are amateur but not stupid, I think.

Everything looked  very well planned, prepared and executed, IMHO. Everything pre-cut, resin carefully selected, and so on.

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The repair is probably going to be strong, but what a fucking idiots! "This is the hardest thing we've ever done!" Are you kidding me? How hard is fiberglassing? Doing it right is hard, but that would be a different league than what they are doing? And they had no idea it would be this challenging? Oh come on.

Why did I watch that episode after I already decided to stop watching this nonsense? Makes me an idiot too.

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On 11/30/2020 at 2:09 PM, MiddayGun said:

There's going to be a lot of very disappointed people in this thread if the keel doesn't fall off the second they motor if off the slings.

I understand what you're saying.....once complete she should be a 'dock queen' and they should keep her in a slip.  If I recall correctly, they have plans on sailing around the world once their project is done.  I'm interested to see what happens once they hit the open ocean gales, storms, etc.....  Seems like a lot of work they're doing with not much of a chance of getting Vessel Insurance.

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2 hours ago, Huggy Bear Brown said:

I understand what you're saying.....once complete she should be a 'dock queen' and they should keep her in a slip.  If I recall correctly, they have plans on sailing around the world once their project is done.  I'm interested to see what happens once they hit the open ocean gales, storms, etc.....  Seems like a lot of work they're doing with not much of a chance of getting Vessel Insurance.

Come on! Insurance is for squares and "those who live lives of quiet desperation" in their cubicles. 

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2 hours ago, Huggy Bear Brown said:

I understand what you're saying.....once complete she should be a 'dock queen' and they should keep her in a slip.  If I recall correctly, they have plans on sailing around the world once their project is done.  I'm interested to see what happens once they hit the open ocean gales, storms, etc.....  Seems like a lot of work they're doing with not much of a chance of getting Vessel Insurance.

Some of you guys do make me laugh.

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10 hours ago, Huggy Bear Brown said:

I understand what you're saying.....once complete she should be a 'dock queen' and they should keep her in a slip.  If I recall correctly, they have plans on sailing around the world once their project is done.  I'm interested to see what happens once they hit the open ocean gales, storms, etc.....  Seems like a lot of work they're doing with not much of a chance of getting Vessel Insurance.

Yeah, we're going to sail oceans.... with our two dogs aboard.  Right.

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I’m actually impressed by the amount of work these two have gotten done in a short period of time.  They have had more than a few opportunities to get depressed and give up.  They have made rookie mistakes, but they have ground down to the bottom of the bad news and appear to be building back in a credible way.

They are going at the laminating in a fully professional way. They have schedules, stack cuts with tapers and it seems a bit of skill.  I questioned Raka epoxy because it is stuff I don’t ever consider, but they have a good reason for selecting it.

I expect they will be fine.  

SHC

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48 minutes ago, Alaris said:

Judging by the most recent episode, this happened quite a while ago (sunset at 8pm). Interesting to see if they got the boat (and their presumptive home) in the water before it started getting cold. 

Well it's snowing here (they are a 20 minute drive) today. Its stopped now. We're looking at high 30s to low 40s in the next 6 days.Warmish but wet weekend.

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2 minutes ago, George Dewey said:

Well it's snowing here (they are a 20 minute drive) today. Its stopped now. We're looking at high 30s to lo4 40s in the 6 days. Warmish but wet weekend.

In the vid they dropped today she was complaining about the heat and humidity slowing her ability to dry the FG cloth that got rained on. Don't know about you guys but I have never had any luck wetting out cloth that had been wet using polyester resin. Don't know about epoxy. 

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Is that like studying thousands of designs?

I don't know what you mean, but I'm sure they asked someone how many layers to put there.

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11 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

I don't know what you mean, but I'm sure they asked someone how many layers to put there.

That was a reference to the Flyin' Hawaiian thread.  The guy building the Home Depot plywood catamaran by studying thousands of designs.

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3 hours ago, GH41 said:

In the vid they dropped today she was complaining about the heat and humidity slowing her ability to dry the FG cloth that got rained on. Don't know about you guys but I have never had any luck wetting out cloth that had been wet using polyester resin. Don't know about epoxy. 

Heat and humidity????? Hmmmmm
 

Whatever, they have a West Marine right near by, and also Salks which has a a lot of that stuff too.

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Wet is not the good for the binders as Zonk says but it’s not water soluble. so, unless it is physically washed out of the ‘glass, it should be able to dry out and retain it’s integrity in taking up resin into the cloth or mat.

Not that I would use it myself since it’s so inexpensive compared to the other materials.

 

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One difference I noticed between this boat and my Catalina 42 is the structure - or lack thereof - around where the keel attaches.  With the Catalina, the hull dips down a couple feet to form the top of the keel and provide an attachment point for the lead.  This forms a proper bilge.  On the Beneteau, it looks like the keel is just bolted onto a relative flat surface.  In a hard grounding, it seems like the forces would be much more difficult to contain with a flat keel attachment vs something like Catalina's approach where the attachment is supported by a vertical component.

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Another question... How did the keel displace the grid upward without compromising the hull beneath it? The keel is hung from the hull not the original grid. Why did the piece of FG come off with the keel? Maybe it was part of a patch job done while the keel was still attached. The whole project looks like an exercise in throwing good money after bad. 

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7 hours ago, GH41 said:

Another question... How did the keel displace the grid upward without compromising the hull beneath it? The keel is hung from the hull not the original grid. Why did the piece of FG come off with the keel? Maybe it was part of a patch job done while the keel was still attached. The whole project looks like an exercise in throwing good money after bad. 

A fiberglass hull has some flex. Keel hits, flexes hull while grid stays in place: crack! Grid separates from hull.

Not sure about the piece of FG you mention. I did not see that part I guess (I already watched way too much).

 

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7 hours ago, AnotherSailor said:

A fiberglass hull has some flex. Keel hits, flexes hull while grid stays in place: crack! Grid separates from hull.

Not sure about the piece of FG you mention. I did not see that part I guess (I already watched way too much).

 

In the video titled "Keel Gets Ripped Off" between 16:15 and 17.25. Probably a piece 16"x16". 

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22 hours ago, Slacktide said:

hull dips down a couple feet to form the top of the keel and provide an attachment point for the lead. 

I believe that is called a keel sump. Very stable attachment point for a hull

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1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

I believe that is called a keel sump. Very stable attachment point for a hull

I have one of these on my Jeanneau.  It is a very different design compared to what I had on my previous boat (Dash 34) which had a keel stub.  It serves as a sump, accumulating any water in the bilge, and so it is where the bilge pump is located.  Were it not there, the floor is very flat in that location and any water in the bilge would distribute itself all over the place and be difficult for the bilge pump to remove.  

Aside from that, I can't see any reason for it to be there.  It may help position the keel when it is being attached.   The rest of the keel sits flush on the bottom of the hull and is simply bolted through the hull with backing plates and large washers.  There are large lateral stringers glassed to the hull to distribute the load.  It looks strong enough to me, and there is no evidence of any movement at the joint.  If anything there is a shortage of longitudinal stringers in this design.

 

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2 hours ago, Rain Man said:

I have one of these on my Jeanneau.  It is a very different design compared to what I had on my previous boat (Dash 34) which had a keel stub.  It serves as a sump, accumulating any water in the bilge, and so it is where the bilge pump is located.  Were it not there, the floor is very flat in that location and any water in the bilge would distribute itself all over the place and be difficult for the bilge pump to remove.  

Aside from that, I can't see any reason for it to be there.  It may help position the keel when it is being attached.   The rest of the keel sits flush on the bottom of the hull and is simply bolted through the hull with backing plates and large washers.  There are large lateral stringers glassed to the hull to distribute the load.  It looks strong enough to me, and there is no evidence of any movement at the joint.  If anything there is a shortage of longitudinal stringers in this design.

 

Bene's & jen's have the same system. The sump is just to collect water in a hole that makes it easier to pump it all out. The recess in the keel is about 3/4" larger than the sump box all around, so does nothing to locate the keel. However, it does allow a lot of bonding surface for the keel/hull joint caulk (usually 5200) to adhere the the box. This is why the glass stripped back when they dropped the keel

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Wet glass is the kiss of death with polyester.  It's not good with epoxy either, but some resin systems are more tolerant than others. Fucking G Flex cures with glass underwater.  Not that I would do that as anything other than a jungle repair.

It's clear that these videos are months behind real time. Hot and Humid hasn't been sighted since early September. If you take the 8 o'clock sunset to mean anything, this last video was shot in August.  It was dry enough this summer that the actual rainy  night could really identify the date if you cared to.

SHC

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15 minutes ago, longy said:

Bene's & jen's have the same system. The sump is just to collect water in a hole that makes it easier to pump it all out. The recess in the keel is about 3/4" larger than the sump box all around, so does nothing to locate the keel. However, it does allow a lot of bonding surface for the keel/hull joint caulk (usually 5200) to adhere the the box. This is why the glass stripped back when they dropped the keel

So the mechanical bond of 5200 to fiberglass is stronger than the laminated structure of the hull. If that is so why even use keel bolts? Just glue it on. It's obvious the kids are repairing it for the second time. I am betting the original owner's insurer paid for the first repair and the yard that half ass fixed it insurer bought the boat as a total loss. 

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