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4 minutes ago, nroose said:

Perhaps get in to better wind?

But the loss of speed was catastrophic. I know they fucked the tack up, but even if they hadn't.

They had their foot firmly on AMs throat with better speed out if the mark and a slight positional advantage and they just flushed it.

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Quick Thoughts after Day 1:   Race 1:  The Kiwi’s completely dominate Italy.  Better start, faster boat, better maneuvers, better everything.  Instant reaction is it is tough to believe that

Learnings for TVNZ live coverage? DON'T RUN THE FUCKING ADS THROUGH THE PRE-START/START!!!!! Muppets. 

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7 minutes ago, jaysper said:

But the loss of speed was catastrophic. I know they fucked the tack up, but even if they hadn't.

They had their foot firmly on AMs throat with better speed out if the mark and a slight positional advantage and they just flushed it.

I am guessing they thought the penalty had not been cleared, and they would sail the course the way they thought was fastest, and not have to keep covering AM after the penalty.

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2 minutes ago, nroose said:

I am guessing they thought the penalty had not been cleared, and they would sail the course the way they thought was fastest, and not have to keep covering AM after the penalty.

Nah, I think they just wanted to execute that specific manoeuvre under the cosh - and they couldn't. They knew the consequence of failure and they still called it - better flunk it now than in The Match.

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Go watch the virtual eye replay of the race.  The angle of the video is making it look much greater than.  AM didn't point as high in those last couple of tacks and did lose a lot of ground. They were closer to the mark than NZ and should have tacked before NZ to the mark.

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55 minutes ago, The_Alchemist said:

Go watch the virtual eye replay of the race.  The angle of the video is making it look much greater than.  AM didn't point as high in those last couple of tacks and did lose a lot of ground. They were closer to the mark than NZ and should have tacked before NZ to the mark.

Seems to me if they'd gone for the mark 2 or 3 boat lengths earlier, they would have had right of way.

I wonder how much sand bagging AM did? Cos ETNZ were pretty woeful in a lot of ways but the gap was still small.

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7 hours ago, dullers said:

Could not the boat still on its foils drop behind by wheeling around  to at least 2 lengths behind and still remain on its foils and pass again at 3 times the speed?

The victim would be silly if he started in displacement mode when he can take his time getting up to foiling speed, before he crossed the starting line because the offender has to wait for the victim to start.

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3 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

Go watch the virtual eye replay of the race.  The angle of the video is making it look much greater than.  AM didn't point as high in those last couple of tacks and did lose a lot of ground. They were closer to the mark than NZ and should have tacked before NZ to the mark.

Weirdly you can see ETNZ turn up and point higher and still gain on AM.

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2 hours ago, The_Alchemist said:

We all know that NZ gained a lot on AM in that 5th upwind leg.  They performed better tacks and are faster upwind.

It would be true saying  not everyone is showing all their cards. AM might be slower, or AM  might be faster but their  better at hiding it. I can’t be sure either way 

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8 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

The victim would be silly if he started in displacement mode when he can take his time getting up to foiling speed, before he crossed the starting line because the offender has to wait for the victim to start.

What about after the start?

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 10 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

The victim would be silly if he started in displacement mode when he can take his time getting up to foiling speed, before he crossed the starting line because the offender has to wait for the victim to start.

1 hour ago, dullers said:

What about after the start?

After the start it is a completely different situation, the offender can improve his position by sailing across the course while the victim spends time getting up to foil speed and when he gets the all clear from the umpire he can overcome the two boat deficit almost immediately, clearly a weakness in the rules.

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7 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:
 10 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

The victim would be silly if he started in displacement mode when he can take his time getting up to foiling speed, before he crossed the starting line because the offender has to wait for the victim to start.

After the start it is a completely different situation, the offender can improve his position by sailing across the course while the victim spends time getting up to foil speed and when he gets the all clear from the umpire he can overcome the two boat deficit almost immediately, clearly a weakness in the rules.

That is what i was thinking as well.

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3 hours ago, dullers said:

That is what i was thinking as well.

With LR and AM being similar in performance in marginal foiling conditions, I could definitely see situations like this coming up during close races. I don't think this was overlooked though, most umpires and judges I know have a knack for identifying these things and they have likely discussed it and have a plan to deal with it if it comes up. I'd love a dedicated live stream of the umpire's room. Being able to hear the umps radio traffic during the Match Racing World's was a nice addition this year. 

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4 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:
 10 hours ago, Terry Hollis said:

After the start it is a completely different situation, the offender can improve his position by sailing across the course while the victim spends time getting up to foil speed and when he gets the all clear from the umpire he can overcome the two boat deficit almost immediately, clearly a weakness in the rules.

May be the victim could counter by also sailing across the course until back on foils before heading towards the next mark.

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10 hours ago, fish7yu said:

May be the victim could counter by also sailing across the course until back on foils before heading towards the next mark.

The victim is already sailing across the course to get on his foils, the offender is already on his foils and would do the two lengths penalty just before the victim got going again.

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17 minutes ago, Terry Hollis said:

The victim is already sailing across the course to get on his foils, the offender is already on his foils and would do the two lengths penalty just before the victim got going again.

The 50m penalty is VMG related right? not just 50m in travelling distance?

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11 hours ago, fish7yu said:

The 50m penalty is VMG related right? not just 50m in travelling distance?

Here is the rule. It is based on VMG.

44.2 Penalties
(a) Penalties for OCS
Penalty for yachts that are OCS: after her starting signal and while inside the
boundary, the penalized yacht shall act immediately to reduce her VMG / VMC until
she is 50 metres behind the other yacht.
(b) Penalties for breaches of a rule in the pre-start, or Part 2 breaches for yachts
on the same leg of the course or within the zone of a mark

Penalty for breaches of a rule in the pre-start, or Part 2 breaches for yachts on the
same leg of the course or within the zone of a mark: after her starting signal and
while inside the boundary, the penalized yacht shall act immediately to reduce her
VMG / VMC until she is 50 metres behind the other yacht.
(c) Other Penalties after the starting signal
Penalty for breaches of a rule (other than penalties under rule 44.2(a) or 44.2(b)) that
is signalled after the starting signal: while inside the boundary, the penalized yacht
shall act immediately to reduce her VMG / VMC until she loses 50 metres compared
to the other yacht that has started correctly and without a penalty.

44.3 Penalty completion

(a) A yacht completes her penalty when the umpires determine that a yacht has lost the
required distance and they have signalled that the penalty is completed via the RO
Comms.


(b) However, when it is clear to the umpires that the penalized yacht is reducing her VMG / VMC but the loss of distance is not being incurred as intended, or the situation is not covered in rule 44.2, the umpires shall make their best effort to calculate what the VMG / VMC reduction should be. When they are satisfied with the loss of distance, the umpires shall signal that the penalty is completed via the RO Comms.

 

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20 minutes ago, nav said:

 

That was fun to watch, Deano always was a good starter.

But it lacks the same excitement of lead mines doing the same thing because close on a lead mine is 10m, close on an AC75 is 100m.

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13 hours ago, Zaal said:

Now, back to reality. Checco Bruni interview by Michele Tognozzi for FareVela

...

- Umpires can give 2 or 3 penalties all at once if they saw fit, like if someone go over a boundary to go straight to the top mark doing less maneuvers. 

...

 

From another thread. Bruni confirms that umpires can give multiple penalties for intentional fouls. I'm fairly satisfied that this won't be an issue in the meaningful races as the umpires will definitely be watching for it.

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22 hours ago, jaysper said:

That was fun to watch, Deano always was a good starter.

But it lacks the same excitement of lead mines doing the same thing because close on a lead mine is 10m, close on an AC75 is 100m.

And the entire dance would have taken long enough for two beers gramps.

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It's interesting, the moaning here about these non-leadmine boats and how bad they are at 'match racing. It seems to me that an issue is that they get into (and out of contact) so fast that for the crew and the umpires to predict and determine what will/has happened becomes a bit arbitrary. At 10kn you could very accurately place your bow say within a meter or 2 of the other boat, with a fairly predictable outcome, both in terms of (hopefully non- ) contact and penalties. Now not only do you have to deal with invisible virtual extremities to the 2 boats but also have maybe only a quarter of the time to make judgements, along with virtually no boat on boat practice :blink:

Speaking of umpires - I wasn't really convinced the Richard Slater was taking it all that seriously but that may be just the way he comes across, or because of the issues created by the rule set and the speed?

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22 minutes ago, nav said:

It's interesting, the moaning here about these non-leadmine boats and how bad they are at 'match racing. It seems to me that an issue is that they get into (and out of contact) so fast that for the crew and the umpires to predict and determine what will/has happened becomes a bit arbitrary. At 10kn you could very accurately place your bow say within a meter or 2 of the other boat, with a fairly predictable outcome, both in terms of (hopefully non- ) contact and penalties. Now not only do you have to deal with invisible virtual extremities to the 2 boats but also have maybe only a quarter of the time to make judgements, along with virtually no boat on boat practice :blink:

Speaking of umpires - I wasn't really convinced the Richard Slater was taking it all that seriously but that may be just the way he comes across, or because of the issues created by the rule set and the speed?

I think he is taking it seriously but is just a calm guy. Most good umpires I've met are very calm and analytical, which is what you need in high pressure and marginal situations. The umpires also get the dream setup for this cup, the computerized overhead views and boat telemetry make calls significantly easier.

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Yep fair enough, good insight. What do you think of the size of the protective virtual diamonds around the boats, the sizes of the circles at the marks and the 'size' of the penalties compared to the speeds and handling capabilities of the boats?

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54 minutes ago, nav said:

 

Speaking of umpires - I wasn't really convinced the Richard Slater was taking it all that seriously but that may be just the way he comes across, or because of the issues created by the rule set and the speed?

Mr. Slater takes his job VERY seriously. He is just preternaturally quiet and calm. He is also the author of the RRSAC  (Racing Rules of Sailing, America's Cup, America's Cup Edition), and has been instrumental in adapting rules meant for Archimedian sailing to the world of high-speed foiling for both match racing and fleet racing.

These umpires are as good as they come. They practice just like the sailors, they go over every decision they have made at the end of the day. When and if they make mistakes, they learn from them.

They are not just there for the beer.

(confession: I have worked with or against all of them in one capacity or another over the years, and have nothing but respect for them.)

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Everything seems fairly well balanced to me, but we haven't seen enough racing to see edge cases. The diamond is a fairly good safety compromise, and closing speeds are relatively low in situations where the diamond matters. Any incident with high closing speeds will involve a duck or cross and the diamond doesn't really change how those are approached. The diamond comes into play during windward-leeward situations where the boat speeds are usually with 5-10kts of each other. I think it forces the keep clear boat to be a bit more conservative than you will see during lower speed racing, which is what you want. The zones are small if you consider the time boats spend in the zones, but, as with most high-performance classes, the sailors have planned what they will do well before getting near the zone.

I'm torn on penalty distance still, but hopefully, we don't see enough penalties for us to really know if the distance is correct.

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18 hours ago, nav said:

Onboard action from the 'Sterncams', great audio, close action, lots of 'issues'...

 

Yeah and somehow the telecast needs more of this view to show how cray these beasts really are - i cant even imagine the scale of a collision even in pre-start...

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