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2020 Election Fuckery


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6 minutes ago, Sidecar said:

Not just Georgia....Wisconsin too, and every other State’s Election result that  the Trump cabal has tried interfering with. There should be multiple warrants for Trump’s arrest already if State Officials and law enforcement did their jobs?

 

Just try and imagine what a beautiful TV show script this could have been? And when Jack Bauer enters Air Force One he bitchslaps the mumbling orange clown and arrests him. Because, Constitution and such ...

 

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The GOP has systematically fucked up in-person voting in selective areas.  In your "understanding the process", does a 10 hour wait in line sound like a reasonable process to you? Some, as

America owes a debt of gratitude to Stacey Abrams.

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23 minutes ago, Grog said:

All the more reason to improve and fortify them.

If those in the highest offices cannot be trusted there must be some means to stop them.

 

Actually, file under "little did I know".

I am continuously surprised just how fragile and vulnerable the western poster boy democracy is. All it seems to take is one malicious player in the key position to screw up just about everything: decades worth of diplomatic work, treaties, allies, truth, honour, reliability, the votes, the law and almost by accident the economy and health and well being of the US people.

That is quite something and I do stress the point that the destructive potiential of the office of POTUS is in dire need of a few dozen effective and independant safety mechanisms. Those in place are too few and quite obviously broken.

 

Germany saw a temporary fall from democracy nearly a century ago.   We (the US) don't have the excuse of punitive treaty obligations.    It started as political convenience by the small government faction to cast doubt on all government spending that wasn't generating profit for their donors.   Military contracts are special, since performance can be shielded by secrecy and the bidding limited.   NASA, energy, etc are more open to scrutiny, so spending there is unpopular with politicians.    That's why US infrastructure is chronically underfunded.  Then politicians started to cast doubt on facts like climate change, at the request of political donors.   From there it was a small step to cast doubt on other facts, like election results, in order to maintain personal power. 

 Congress gave up its constitutional responsibilities on matters that didn't actually have the potential to generate campaign donations or other financial compensation.    It was easier to complain  and have hearings then to actually do anything.   When they actually pass legislation it's a huge bill with thousands opportunities snuck in.   There is no clear audit trail of which legislator requested or changed which line, protecting them corruption questions.   I see no way to end the corruption.   If the bitch is burned down it seems unlikely it will be replaced by another, better, attempt at democracy.    The closest we are likely to come is a democracy of the dollar, where each vote has to be paid for and half percenters can bypass the middle men.   Since legislators and POTUS are the middle men, they of course object to market efficiency in this area.    The Maddison Ave types of the digital age have gotten very good at controlling opinion.   Groups of people can be convinced to take almost any action against their interest, as Brexit and so many US decisions show.   

 

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21 hours ago, Lark said:

You know the answer.    The Attorney General has stated Trump is above the law.   The Senate agreed.    Our republic hangs on the ethics of Trump judges.    The House will stand but the Senate may not.  Our convoluted electoral college was solution by committee, with a committee being a bunch of old white guys suffering from heat stroke,   If the Senate had honor they would have been horrified four years ago and clawed back much of the power the constitution intended for Congress.    They chose to cheerlead the orange man instead.     

 

The House Dems might have actually done that,  but for Moscow Mitch, and his veto power, and the other Turmpalloos in the Senate, and some in the House.....

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Lark, very insightful post.

And I am afraid, most of the political "business" we experience in most western democracies today is compromised by personell and motivations just as banal as you described them.

I do believe in democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and so on. I do believe the first sentence of Germany's constitution is the most important one: "Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar." -- Translation "Human dignity shall be inviolable.".

As it turns out, way too many career politicians have flooded the ranks, followed by some sort of soldiers of fortune and lately a new breed of pure bullshitters. While the basic principle of these democracies still stands, we must try and reinvent parts of them. Specifically the checks and balances and maybe even before that the rules of admission. Germany, for example, does not have a population consisting of mostly jurists and economists. Yet our parliament, supposed to represent the people (population?) is actually almost 90% filled with people from these two professions.

The inevitable BS is a given, as not only Brexit and some US decisions show. We have become pretty good at screwing things up ourselves, again.

 

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38 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

You can't make this shit up...

Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene, the staunchly conservative freshman from Northwest Georgia, told CNN that she is traveling with President Trump today to the state. Asked if she had any concerns about Trump's call to the Georgia secretary of state, Greene attacked Brad Raffensperger.

"I think our secretary of state has failed Georgia," Greene said. "I believe our elections should be decertified."

Asked if doing so would then impact her and other Georgia Republicans — all of whom were elected on the same ballot — Greene said: "We're just talking about the President's race."

Translation: "I -GOT- power now and by golly I ain't gonna give it up fer nuthin'... suck it, you stupid libby-rull faggots!"

Funny thing, Vice President Cheney is now counting among the reasonable and principled conservative voices arrayed against Trump's coup attempt

56 minutes ago, Grog said:

...

I am continuously surprised just how fragile and vulnerable the western poster boy democracy is. All it seems to take is one malicious player in the key position to screw up just about everything: decades worth of diplomatic work, treaties, allies, truth, honour, reliability, the votes, the law and almost by accident the economy and health and well being of the US people.

That is quite something and I do stress the point that the destructive potiential of the office of POTUS is in dire need of a few dozen effective and independant safety mechanisms. Those in place are too few and quite obviously broken.

 

I don't agree, but also I think you probably have not 'enjoyed' a front-row seat to the last 30 years of increasingly predatory & destructive right-wing politicians here in the good old USA.

The checks and balances are real, but they depend upon the people in office to uphold them. That will always be true, it is impossible to devise a legal framework that does not depend upon people to make it work IMHO. You could add another layer of checks and balances, and it would just take a little longer and a few more jackasses & crooks in the right (wrong) places to dismantle it.

Take a look at Turkey. Their Constitution had the ultimate check & balance... the Army had the Constitutional duty and authorization to unilaterally declare martial law and take over the country, -if- a political party turned religious or a religious party gained a majority or a Prime Minister assigned to himself a couple of other critical state offices. Erdogan has done all those things... he started out by finding and promoting a couple of religious and/or personally loyal judges and generals.

In the US, there has been a rising hatred of liberals and now the word "progressive" has also been demonized. Not new, this same attitude has been part of politics (and hating foreigners, and racism, etc etc) but it's been small and it's been separate factions. Starting in the 1990s, the most popular mass media all trumpet (pardon the pun) what a bunch of homosexual weakling traitors all those pointy-head liberals are, how stupid "progressives" are and how much damage they've done to our sacred flag, etc etc. It's human nature to want an enemy and it's surprising how many people have been sucked in by this bullshit. If it doesn't start to swing back, the USA is done. But what you're seeing is not 3 1/2 years of Trump, it's ~30 years of pushing hatred of Democrats, blacks, immigrants, pushing hatred of American principles, hatred of fact itself. Trump just rode the wave and managed to find a number of willing participants.

If President Trump were not a dumbass and lazy too, he would have started working on a network of friends and influencers with this in mind, 4 years ago. As it is, he didn't even bother to personally check out his Supreme Court picks (other than give Justice Coney-Barret a quick pussy-grab or two, most likely).

And the USA as it existed from 1776 to 2016 would be done. Bye bye forever. We're still not out of the woods.

- DSK

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43 minutes ago, Lark said:

Germany saw a temporary fall from democracy nearly a century ago.   We (the US) don't have the excuse of punitive treaty obligations.    It started as political convenience by the small government faction to cast doubt on all government spending that wasn't generating profit for their donors.   Military contracts are special, since performance can be shielded by secrecy and the bidding limited.   NASA, energy, etc are more open to scrutiny, so spending there is unpopular with politicians.    That's why US infrastructure is chronically underfunded.  Then politicians started to cast doubt on facts like climate change, at the request of political donors.   From there it was a small step to cast doubt on other facts, like election results, in order to maintain personal power. 

 Congress gave up its constitutional responsibilities on matters that didn't actually have the potential to generate campaign donations or other financial compensation.    It was easier to complain  and have hearings then to actually do anything.   When they actually pass legislation it's a huge bill with thousands opportunities snuck in.   There is no clear audit trail of which legislator requested or changed which line, protecting them corruption questions.   I see no way to end the corruption.   If the bitch is burned down it seems unlikely it will be replaced by another, better, attempt at democracy.    The closest we are likely to come is a democracy of the dollar, where each vote has to be paid for and half percenters can bypass the middle men.   Since legislators and POTUS are the middle men, they of course object to market efficiency in this area.    The Maddison Ave types of the digital age have gotten very good at controlling opinion.   Groups of people can be convinced to take almost any action against their interest, as Brexit and so many US decisions show.   

 

The economist John Kenneth Galbraith in the late 1940s foresaw that the combination of mass media... he was thinking primarily radio and movies, since nobody knew how big TV was going to get... and Skinnerian psychology (behaviorism) would be the new ruling principle of mankind. With the advent of multi-national corporations controlling ever-more-efficient production of consumer goods, all basic needs -could- be met (although whether they actually woould, would be decided by prevailing social custom) and the profit of any given enterprise would depend on it's ability to advertise.

He asked, how do you sell a house to a man who already sleeps in a warm dry bed every night? How do you sell him more clothes? How do you sell food to a man who not only isn't hungry, but has never experienced hunger himself?

Galbraith deliberately did not speculate on this effect on politics, but he did say it was likely to be profound and that efforts in this direction were certain to be concealed from the public.

This is not what he won a Nobel Prize for, but IMHO he well deserved it Also wrote the best book on The Great Depression available, IMHO.

- DSK

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4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I don't agree, but also I think you probably have not 'enjoyed' a front-row seat to the last 30 years of increasingly predatory & destructive right-wing politicians here in the good old USA.

[snip]

- DSK

Agreeable, and true.

 

It is getting late here so I will postpone a more detailed answer if I may.

Short version: think of a three strikes policy for two key positions: POTUS's exectutive orders and Mitch McConnell's power to block or forward anything and everything hitting his desk as he likes.

When either used the third "shortcut" or block, everything else stops until both houses have come to an agreement to either pass or dismiss the topics at hand. Unpaid overtime and camp beds in their offices included. Showers and hot meals only when they finished their work.

 

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Just now, Steam Flyer said:

The economist John Kenneth Galbraith in the late 1940s foresaw that the combination of mass media... he was thinking primarily radio and movies, since nobody knew how big TV was going to get... and Skinnerian psychology (behaviorism) would be the new ruling principle of mankind. With the advent of multi-national corporations controlling ever-more-efficient production of consumer goods, all basic needs -could- be met (although whether they actually woould, would be decided by prevailing social custom) and the profit of any given enterprise would depend on it's ability to advertise.

He asked, how do you sell a house to a man who already sleeps in a warm dry bed every night? How do you sell him more clothes? How do you sell food to a man who not only isn't hungry, but has never experienced hunger himself?

Galbraith deliberately did not speculate on this effect on politics, but he did say it was likely to be profound and that efforts in this direction were certain to be concealed from the public.

This is not what he won a Nobel Prize for, but IMHO he well deserved it Also wrote the best book on The Great Depression available, IMHO.

- DSK

I will have to read his insights.   Thanks.   I struggle with the harm social media seems to have done to the democracies of the world.   I believe in freedom of speech but not freedom to lie.  I believe in freedom to persuade but not to manipulate.   How do you separate these things?  

 I don't know how the democracies of this century will survive mass media.    With social media the input costs became so inexpensive anybody can afford a megaphone.    Behavior science has become increasingly precise, at least on a population level.   Perhaps the next great change will be the day Google becomes sentient and understands everything that it controls.   Will it become Multivac or Skynet?    A while back I suggested Trump is just an adolescent AI experimenting on humanity.   The AI seeks to govern by manipulating our leaders with the reward of likes and search hits, replacing them until it finds ones it can control.  

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50 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Funny thing, Vice President Cheney is now counting among the reasonable and principled conservative voices arrayed against Trump's coup attempt

Shows you just how far the States have fallen when a war criminal can be counted among the good guys.

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22 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Shows you just how far the States have fallen when a war criminal can be counted among the good guys.

Turnip has pardoned quite a few of them. He likes them.

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8 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Turnip has pardoned quite a few of them. He likes them.

Except for the fact that he never served, he would be one of them.

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1 hour ago, Grog said:

Lark, very insightful post.

And I am afraid, most of the political "business" we experience in most western democracies today is compromised by personell and motivations just as banal as you described them.

I do believe in democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and so on. I do believe the first sentence of Germany's constitution is the most important one: "Die Würde des Menschen ist unantastbar." -- Translation "Human dignity shall be inviolable.".

As it turns out, way too many career politicians have flooded the ranks, followed by some sort of soldiers of fortune and lately a new breed of pure bullshitters. While the basic principle of these democracies still stands, we must try and reinvent parts of them. Specifically the checks and balances and maybe even before that the rules of admission. Germany, for example, does not have a population consisting of mostly jurists and economists. Yet our parliament, supposed to represent the people (population?) is actually almost 90% filled with people from these two professions.

The inevitable BS is a given, as not only Brexit and some US decisions show. We have become pretty good at screwing things up ourselves, again.

 

Airplane cockpits are full of pilots and boats are full of sailors.

Politicians make law and economic policy, so lawyers (jurists) and economists being well represented isn't a total surprise. Maybe 90% is a bit much.

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38 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Airplane cockpits are full of pilots and boats are full of sailors.

Politicians make law and economic policy, so lawyers (jurists) and economists being well represented isn't a total surprise. Maybe 90% is a bit much.

And "businessman" hasn't really worked well in any Federal capacity.

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Carl Bernstein comments:

Quote

We have both a criminal president of the United States and a subversive president of the United States at the same time in this one person subverting the very basis of our democracy, and willing to act criminally in that subversion.

All these Republicans, from Cruz to all the rest of them who have participated in this sham, really ought to be made to pay by history, as should their party. This is not some kind of forgivable act. This is not about two simple equal sides of an equation. There are no two sides to this question. This is about democracy, fundamental principles… We have, for the first time, a president of the United States who has exceeded McCarthy’s authoritarianism, his disrespect for the constitution and rule of law, and the Republican party of our time – with McConnell’s leadership, with McCarthy’s leadership — has gone along with it to their disgrace.

CNN via Mediaite. https://www.mediaite.com/tv/carl-bernstein-says-trumps-call-to-raffensperger-is-the-ultimate-smoking-gun-from-a-criminal-president/?utm_source=mostpopular

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3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Shows you just how far the States have fallen when a war criminal can be counted among the good guys.

I said that to a number of people today.  How bizarre it is to look at Cheney and Rumsfeld as bulwarks against an autocratic presidential and his assault on democracy.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Left Shift said:

I said that to a number of people today.  How bizarre it is to look at Cheney and Rumsfeld as bulwarks against an autocratic presidential and his assault on democracy.

They are only upset that the curtain has been pulled back. And perhaps that wealthy criminals might be prosecuted. Only taxes annoy the rich and powerful more than transparency and accountability. 

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2 minutes ago, El Borracho said:
6 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

I said that to a number of people today.  How bizarre it is to look at Cheney and Rumsfeld as bulwarks against an autocratic presidential and his assault on democracy.

They are only upset that the curtain has been pulled back. And perhaps that wealthy criminals might be prosecuted. Only taxes annoy the rich and powerful more than transparency and accountability. 

Right... that's about how I see it, Cheney is just irked that it isn't him.

- DSK

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18 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

That was a good laugh, "heart transplant" like he had one to begin with

- DSK

Yeah...Isn't a trade in required to qualify for that procedure?

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9 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

Still waiting to Trump to reveal the “real” vote totals.  Said he would do it tonight.

Well, just like waiting for "Infrastructure week" don't hold your breath.  

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20 hours ago, VhmSays said:

The tape was released from trumps office/side. Listen to it, the guys in Georgia are on the speaker whereas trump is being directly recorded. So someone in the Oval.

The most clear voices aren't indicative of where the recording was made, not these days. Any number of ways it could have been on the Georgia side but the Georgia voices could sound tinnier, starting with a conference table on that side and everybody in their own offices sharing a phone connection on the WH side. 

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2 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Cheney is only doing this to make his daughter + family name more palatable to FiCon + NeoCons. He sees a power vacuum that his daughter can fill.

His whole unitary executive theory of government does a face-plant with a clown as executive. He must be very upset. I suggest a long, loooong drink of water while reclined on a bench. That'll settle him down. 

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2 minutes ago, Mark K said:

The most clear voices aren't indicative of where the recording was made, not these days. Any number of ways it could have been on the Georgia side but the Georgia voices could sound tinnier, starting with a conference table on that side and everybody in their own offices sharing a phone connection on the WH side. 

Besides, you could have irrefutable video of Mike Pence standing behind Trump facing away from the camera, with his pants down, with microphone held in his butt cheeks, and a sign on his back stating "I'm recording this call." with his signature below it.

If Trump says it was recorded by the Georgia SOS, then that is what they will believe. 

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The SoS recorded the call and released it in retaliation for a Trump tweet claiming he (the SoS) was hiding the truth. Had Trump not tweeted, the recording would not have been released according to the SoS.

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7 minutes ago, roundthebuoys said:

But the SoS already said he recorded it.  Because Miss Lindsey tried to coerce him a while ago.

He has crossed the Rubicon. Making a recording of his words was High treason against the Dear Leader.  I would give that boy a personal security detail and suggest he re-locate his family.      

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1 minute ago, Mark K said:

He has crossed the Rubicon. Making a recording of his words was High treason against the Dear Leader.  I would give that boy a personal security detail and suggest he re-locate his family.      

100% sure that's already happened.

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Trump supporters can be a violent bunch when it comes to supporting their leader.

Ya know.....  I just got a hankering for an antifa meme.  Which one of the elk would like to step up?

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19 minutes ago, Mark K said:

His whole unitary executive theory of government does a face-plant with a clown as executive. He must be very upset. I suggest a long, loooong drink of water while reclined on a bench. That'll settle him down. 

I of course agree but Cheney's whole unitary executive theory of government HAD a clown as an executive. W wasn't as bad as Shitstain but he was completely inattentive to detail. He was the deciderer who couldn't concentrate. People forget what an idiot W was.

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1 hour ago, badlatitude said:

 

Well, when you can't read your own lease in a deposition, one of the things you most certainly haven't read is the Constitution.

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18 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Well, when you can't read your own lease in a deposition, one of the things you most certainly haven't read is the Constitution.

Let us hope that mr. Trump has enough time left in his life to understand and address his errors.

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5 minutes ago, Dog said:

With mail-in voting there is no way to know if these numbers are true.

Tell your Messiah.

Screen Shot 2021-01-05 at 6.33.34 AM.png

And, before you claim Florida is alone in such security, do take the time to see if you can find a credible source to cite as evidence to back up your belief.

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From an actual poll worker, in Georgia.  Not to be confused with an architect, on the internet.

 

I just got home from counting absentee ballots all day for my local county. As many of you all know, Georgia is in what is expected to be a tight senate runoff race.
Already, I am hearing stories about election fraud, namely from President Trump and his supporters, with absolutely no basis in fact.
Before this year, I didn’t know how elections were run, I had never worked one before. But with a need for younger poll workers due to the pandemic, me and a few friends promptly applied to be workers.
This is what I have learned: election fraud is next to impossible.
While working the polls, I worked the poll pad, that is to say, that I checked everyone’s ID made sure they were at the correct polling place and made sure that they hadn’t voted previously. Then I made them sign an oath and made them a voting card to use on the voting machines.
When I worked the general election there was only one person who tried to vote twice, a white male of the boomer generation who threw a fit when we told him he couldn’t vote again. He admitted that he had voted already but wanted to change his mind, of course, that is illegal and he continued to harass us for the next hour or so before he eventually gave up.
If ANYTHING, I saw voter suppression, I saw 5 or so people turned away because they were at the wrong precinct, so we told them where to go instead. Two of them had to drive hours to be at their proper precincts and I believe those two should have been issued provisional ballots. I called the Election board the next day to report it.
Besides verifying that all people are registered with a proper ID, and at their proper precinct, all voting machines are sealed before opening to ensure a ballot count of zero, and then at the end of each day are sealed again. Every number is triple checked with three different poll workers who have all taken an oath.
Today, I counted absentee ballots on a team of three women. When we received the ballots other workers had already verified signatures and counted envelopes. When we got them, each one of us counted each envelope and each absentee ballot and made sure we got the same number. We then sent it to another person who counted them again. We meticulously checked the absentee ballots, and if any was ripped (maybe 1 in 300 in our stacks) and couldn’t go through the counting machine it was given a duplicate ballot which was also triple checked. THEN after we do all of that counting and it is verified by three people someone else would count again, and then it would be sent off to be actually counted by the machines on run-off Election Day (tomorrow.)
All of this is meticulously documented.
The whole time we had both poll watchers and were videotaped.
So I will say it again, election fraud is next to impossible. After working the polls and counting absentee ballots, I literally cannot fathom how fraud can take place as it is counted by humans and machines and we are constantly being watched. Everything is checked at least five times that I know of.
In conclusion, if you spread lies about election fraud while having no idea what you are talking about, without lifting a finger to WITNESS or to HELP with the democratic process then you need to stop.
It’s not only putting our democracy in a dangerous position, but it’s also very disrespectful to the countless men and women who work very long hours to make sure that your vote is counted.
Please respect your election workers who work hard for democracy, and if you don’t trust us, the courts, and every check and balance of your government, then go ahead and sign up to be an election official yourself.
But please, stop spreading lies. It isn’t ok.
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9 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

From an actual poll worker, in Georgia.  Not to be confused with an architect, on the internet.

 

I just got home from counting absentee ballots all day for my local county. As many of you all know, Georgia is in what is expected to be a tight senate runoff race.
Already, I am hearing stories about election fraud, namely from President Trump and his supporters, with absolutely no basis in fact.
Before this year, I didn’t know how elections were run, I had never worked one before. But with a need for younger poll workers due to the pandemic, me and a few friends promptly applied to be workers.
This is what I have learned: election fraud is next to impossible.
While working the polls, I worked the poll pad, that is to say, that I checked everyone’s ID made sure they were at the correct polling place and made sure that they hadn’t voted previously. Then I made them sign an oath and made them a voting card to use on the voting machines.
When I worked the general election there was only one person who tried to vote twice, a white male of the boomer generation who threw a fit when we told him he couldn’t vote again. He admitted that he had voted already but wanted to change his mind, of course, that is illegal and he continued to harass us for the next hour or so before he eventually gave up.
If ANYTHING, I saw voter suppression, I saw 5 or so people turned away because they were at the wrong precinct, so we told them where to go instead. Two of them had to drive hours to be at their proper precincts and I believe those two should have been issued provisional ballots. I called the Election board the next day to report it.
Besides verifying that all people are registered with a proper ID, and at their proper precinct, all voting machines are sealed before opening to ensure a ballot count of zero, and then at the end of each day are sealed again. Every number is triple checked with three different poll workers who have all taken an oath.
Today, I counted absentee ballots on a team of three women. When we received the ballots other workers had already verified signatures and counted envelopes. When we got them, each one of us counted each envelope and each absentee ballot and made sure we got the same number. We then sent it to another person who counted them again. We meticulously checked the absentee ballots, and if any was ripped (maybe 1 in 300 in our stacks) and couldn’t go through the counting machine it was given a duplicate ballot which was also triple checked. THEN after we do all of that counting and it is verified by three people someone else would count again, and then it would be sent off to be actually counted by the machines on run-off Election Day (tomorrow.)
All of this is meticulously documented.
The whole time we had both poll watchers and were videotaped.
So I will say it again, election fraud is next to impossible. After working the polls and counting absentee ballots, I literally cannot fathom how fraud can take place as it is counted by humans and machines and we are constantly being watched. Everything is checked at least five times that I know of.
In conclusion, if you spread lies about election fraud while having no idea what you are talking about, without lifting a finger to WITNESS or to HELP with the democratic process then you need to stop.
It’s not only putting our democracy in a dangerous position, but it’s also very disrespectful to the countless men and women who work very long hours to make sure that your vote is counted.
Please respect your election workers who work hard for democracy, and if you don’t trust us, the courts, and every check and balance of your government, then go ahead and sign up to be an election official yourself.
But please, stop spreading lies. It isn’t ok.

You take this to be dispositive?

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9 hours ago, Fakenews said:

I hope modern medicine doesn’t do for Trump what it did for Cheney.

Dick and Don should go duck hunting together............

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34 minutes ago, Dog said:

He's wrong. No chain of custody, no way of knowing.

Actually, you're wrong.  There are security measures beyond chain of custody.

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18 minutes ago, Dog said:

You take this to be dispositive?

I take this to be the experience of someone who worked the polls in Georgia, as opposed to a keyboard warrior who insists his beliefs, wholly lacking in evidence, trump dozens of investigations and scores of dismissed lawsuits.

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8 minutes ago, Teener said:

Actually, you're wrong.  There are security measures beyond chain of custody.

Bullshit.... A domineering husband coerces his wife to vote as he wants...How do you know?

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Just now, Dog said:

Bullshit.... A domineering husband coerces his wife to vote as he wants...How do you know?

That could happen with in person voting.  Don't believe me, ask anyone who has firsthand experience with such a husband.

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Just now, Bus Driver said:

I take this to be the experience of someone who worked the polls in Georgia, as opposed to a keyboard warrior who insists his beliefs, wholly lacking in evidence, trump dozens of investigations and scores of dismissed lawsuits.

You made that part up didn't you?

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1 minute ago, Bus Driver said:

That could happen with in person voting.  Don't believe me, ask anyone who has firsthand experience with such a husband.

He's not allowed in the booth with her is he?

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Just now, Dog said:

He's not allowed in the booth with her is he?

Yeah.  An abusive husband, and an abused wife, will break the cycle for voting.  

Clearly, you've never met anyone in such a situation.  And, before you go off on a tangent, it was YOU who introduced this scenario.

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Just now, Bus Driver said:

Nope.  You have provided no evidence, despite it being requested by myself and others.

Bullshit...I have not insisted that my beliefs trump any investigations. I have not insisted that fraud changed the result.

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This... "who insists his beliefs, wholly lacking in evidence, trump dozens of investigations and scores of dismissed lawsuits"... is a lie.

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Your continued insistence that this election was insecure, despite the results of investigations and failed lawsuits by the President, make clear you believe you know more than the people involved.

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Dog said: Bullshit...I have not insisted that my beliefs trump any investigations. I have not insisted that fraud changed the result.

 

Good but I insist that voter suppression does change results.  The benefits of universal vote by mail is outweigh your hypothetical fraud.

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58 minutes ago, Dog said:

Bullshit...I have not insisted that my beliefs trump any investigations. I have not insisted that fraud changed the result.

Where did I claim you "insisted fraud changed the result"?  Be specific and quote my exact words.  Just like you insist others provide.

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

 

Hey Doggie; do you believe that -

A - Biden is the duly elected President of the United States

or

B - Trump was robbed 

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1 minute ago, Sean said:

Hey Doggie; do you believe that -

A - Biden is the duly elected President of the United States

or

B - Trump was robbed 

He’s going to come back with:

C) we just don’t know...

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32 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:
1 hour ago, Fakenews said:

He’s going to come back with:

C) we just don’t know...

I could be the producer of the world's best tentacle porn. Or not. Who knows? How can you prove I'm not?

Dragon Car Porn.... do not google

- DSK

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3 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

That could happen with in person voting.  Don't believe me, ask anyone who has firsthand experience with such a husband.

 

1 hour ago, Fakenews said:

He’s going to come back with:

C) we just don’t know...

but we want to take the next 4 years to  investigate

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2 hours ago, Sean said:

Hey Doggie; do you believe that -

A - Biden is the duly elected President of the United States

or

B - Trump was robbed 

Having not seen hard evidence sufficient to reverse the result I accept that The Big Guy won. But there is smoke, for example, I find it hard to believe that he got more black votes than Obama. I do believe in some Democratic cities election officials pretended to suspend counting so they could continue the count un-observed. My mind could change.

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36 minutes ago, Dog said:
1 hour ago, dacapo said:

but we want to take the next 4 years to  investigate

Like the Democrats did?

Think you can drag out Hunter Biden's Laptop for THAT long?

When is Trump going to release his tax returns, now there is some definite criminal activity... is it the Bidens that are forbidden to operate a charity?

Do you think an investigation of the Bidens will provide a net positive return like the Mueller investigation did? Wanna make any bets on how many convictions?

- DSK

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Because there are abusive husbands influencing their wives to vote a certain way is a powerful argument for widespread voter fraud in the 2020 presidential election. Well done Dog.

Nice to see that you are also helping the planet by recycling your previously disproven arguments. Every little bit helps.

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Sorry, Republicans and a reminder that hospitals are full. Heart attacks will be treated over the phone only.

GOP Pollster Sounds Alarms for Republicans

GOP Pollster Sounds Alarms for Republicans 
January 5, 2021 at 10:18 am EST By Taegan Goddar 

 

GOP pollster and strategist Frank Luntz told CNBC that he believes Democrats hold the upper hand in Tuesday’s Georgia Senate runoff elections, warning of disappointment for Republicans in those pivotal races and in Wednesday’s upcoming Electoral College presidential confirmation vote on Capitol Hill. 

Said Luntz: “There is a greater divide in the Republican party than there is in the Democratic party. The party is in the process of tearing itself apart and you don’t do that now, when you’re this close to the most important Senate election, literally, in a lifetime. Democrats are unified, Republicans are not and that’s what gives them the advantage.” 

He added: “I think the next 48 hours are going to be among the worst for the GOP.”
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5 hours ago, Dog said:

Bullshit.... A domineering husband coerces his wife to vote as he wants...How do you know?

Ok dog.  Some questions... predicated on your belief that the only secure vote can be done in person,  on the day. 

Do you believe every legal voter should have an equal opportunity to vote?  

How should a pilot vote who is on a long haul,  or away from his own country all day.

How should a service member vote when out of state?

How should the person working 3 jobs with a family vote when the polling place has a 4 hour delay? 

For absolute security and in person voting,  should business,  shops, all shutdown and everyone be required to travel to their own county?  Explain how that works in a pandemic? 

Are you suggesting anonymity of voting should be removed?  

Should a statue of minimum performance standards for the election process (not have to travel more than x miles to register/vote, and be able to vote within day 30 minutes) be implemented with monetary penalties? 

The larger question is whether or is desirable to have a many voters vote as possible,  or make it harder for people to vote who think differently to you? 

Let's see if you reply to this.  You don't normally reply to me responsibly, so I'm not holding my breath. 

 

Edited by dfw_sailor
Missing. To
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5 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Sorry, Republicans and a reminder that hospitals are full. Heart attacks will be treated over the phone only.

GOP Pollster Sounds Alarms for Republicans

GOP Pollster Sounds Alarms for Republicans 
January 5, 2021 at 10:18 am EST By Taegan Goddar 

 

GOP pollster and strategist Frank Luntz told CNBC that he believes Democrats hold the upper hand in Tuesday’s Georgia Senate runoff elections, warning of disappointment for Republicans in those pivotal races and in Wednesday’s upcoming Electoral College presidential confirmation vote on Capitol Hill. 

Said Luntz: “There is a greater divide in the Republican party than there is in the Democratic party. The party is in the process of tearing itself apart and you don’t do that now, when you’re this close to the most important Senate election, literally, in a lifetime. Democrats are unified, Republicans are not and that’s what gives them the advantage.” 

He added: “I think the next 48 hours are going to be among the worst for the GOP.”

In 2008 the Republicans had crashed the bus REALLY hard, everybody was pissed off and even the die-hards were shrugging off the election. That's how I knew Obama was going to win. Republican voters were just not ready to trust the same guys who fucked up so badly.

Now they've crashed the bus even harder. It's almost like they said "hold my beer and watch this." 350,000 Americans dead and they have record-breaking voter turnout. Serously WTF is wrong with these people? They must really hate America.

Other than Trump, Republicans won this 2020 election. I really really hope they don't win this Georgia run-off but I'm expecting the Repubs to keep the Senate, and for the House Repubs to start screaming for impeachment on Jan 22nd if not before.

They are doing their best to destroy the country by rendering it impossible to govern, even by themselves. Predictions of GOP meltdowns, crash-n-burns, etc etc, I don't believe any of it. Their voters are too brainwashed and dedicated to The Cause (whatever it is).

- DSK

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9 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

In 2008 the Republicans had crashed the bus REALLY hard, everybody was pissed off and even the die-hards were shrugging off the election. That's how I knew Obama was going to win. Republican voters were just not ready to trust the same guys who fucked up so badly.

Now they've crashed the bus even harder. It's almost like they said "hold my beer and watch this." 350,000 Americans dead and they have record-breaking voter turnout. Serously WTF is wrong with these people? They must really hate America.

Other than Trump, Republicans won this 2020 election. I really really hope they don't win this Georgia run-off but I'm expecting the Repubs to keep the Senate, and for the House Repubs to start screaming for impeachment on Jan 22nd if not before.

They are doing their best to destroy the country by rendering it impossible to govern, even by themselves. Predictions of GOP meltdowns, crash-n-burns, etc etc, I don't believe any of it. Their voters are too brainwashed and dedicated to The Cause (whatever it is).

- DSK

Yep, the failure of BTBD is that most centrists assumed that folks would see failure and move away from it. Yet, 74 million voters saw massive failure and doubled down on it. It's not rational.

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5 hours ago, Dog said:

You take this to be dispositive?

None of it is dispositive. 

That is what you have going for you.  To destroy confidence in the electoral process, you just need doubt. Claims of "widespread fraud" need evidence to be dispositive, but only need to be made to introduce doubt.   And that is what you are doing, with claims that are failing miserably in court, but getting traction on social and right wing media.  You and others are systematically undermining democracy. And you are clearly smart enough to know this.  You are harming the country.

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22 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

GOP Pollster Sounds Alarms for Republicans

Luntz is very smart, but he is also evil incarnate . . 

helped the Reich craft language that paved the way 

for the GOPPERS to not recognize the legitimacy of Dem or other opposition. 

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6 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

In 2008 the Republicans had crashed the bus REALLY hard, everybody was pissed off and even the die-hards were shrugging off the election. That's how I knew Obama was going to win. Republican voters were just not ready to trust the same guys who fucked up so badly.

Now they've crashed the bus even harder. It's almost like they said "hold my beer and watch this." 350,000 Americans dead and they have record-breaking voter turnout. Serously WTF is wrong with these people? They must really hate America.

Other than Trump, Republicans won this 2020 election. I really really hope they don't win this Georgia run-off but I'm expecting the Repubs to keep the Senate, and for the House Repubs to start screaming for impeachment on Jan 22nd if not before.

They are doing their best to destroy the country by rendering it impossible to govern, even by themselves. Predictions of GOP meltdowns, crash-n-burns, etc etc, I don't believe any of it. Their voters are too brainwashed and dedicated to The Cause (whatever it is).

- DSK

Yeah, I expect the R's will survive. We may get lucky with one seat, two would be fantastic, but that is probably powered by my intense dislike for Mitch McConnell. As I was watching the news this morning, a reporter was interviewing a group of R's and every single one said they would not accept Biden as their president. One person went so far to say that if Trump doesn't overturn this election, he will never trust the vote again. This is stunning and doesn't promise a rosy future for Biden at all.

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1 minute ago, benwynn said:
5 hours ago, Dog said:

You take this to be dispositive?

None of it is dispositive. 

That is what you have going for you.  To destroy confidence in the electoral process, you just need doubt. Claims of "widespread fraud" need evidence to be dispositive, but only need to be made to introduce doubt.   And that is what you are doing, with claims that are failing miserably in court, but getting traction on social and right wing media.  You and others are systematically undermining democracy. And you are clearly smart enough to know this.  You are harming the country.

And your point is?

Dog and his elk hate America and hate democracy. This has been obvious for a couple of years at least.

I dunno if they are really Russian trolls or just stupid spiteful dumbasses, but there are certainly enough USAnians who have been given positive reinforcement in their hatred of basic American principles and now are cheering at the potential to install a dictator.

- DSK

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4 minutes ago, AJ Oliver said:

Luntz is very smart, but he is also evil incarnate . . 

helped the Reich craft language that paved the way 

for the GOPPERS to not recognize the legitimacy of Dem or other opposition. 

Luntz made this mess without a doubt. I hope he wallows in his failure for a long time.

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1 minute ago, badlatitude said:

Luntz made this mess without a doubt. I hope he wallows in his failure for a long time.

He's made himself a very good living by making the country worse. 

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