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Dyneema lifelines


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Replacing vinyl-coated lifelines on my Pearson 30 after sustaining damage when another vessel dragged into me during TS Isaias this summer.  After pretzeling my bowrail and dragging down the STB side, the other vessel managed to snag the upper lifeline, folding a stanchion and opening the vinyl-coating.  Lifelines were about 10-11 years old and otherwise in good shape (at least based on what I could see...).  Fittings are all good.  Having weighed the alternatives (including just replacing the one vinyl-coated line), I've decided to replace the lifelines with synthetic.  

Looking at either 6mm Amsteel Blue or New England HTS-78.  Both are SK78 dyneema, though HTS-78 rates maybe slightly better (assuming apples to apples metrics). Perspectives, opinions on one over the other?  Forget them both and just use Dux or uncoated SS?

Any first-hand experience with C.S Johnson splice line fittings?  Since existing fittings are good, I'll only need to replace the threaded studs.  These fittings use a tighter bend radius than just lashing.  They look neater, but are perhaps less adjustable in terms of being able to compensate for stretch.  Maybe a hybrid approach is best?  Thoughts/opinions?

Boat's out of the water for the season, so now I get to over-think things... :)

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Take the time to make sure the stanchions aren’t going to chafe the lifelines. There are a couple lifeline specific ropes out there. New England makes one, I think marlow does as well. I’d lash the ends and skip the turnbuckle, the Johnson hardware always has seemed heavy to me. Makes dealing with gates a fun challenge but doable. 
 

Personally, I’d just go with uncoated stainless. 

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If you're racing in the US, HMPE has been illegal for lifelines since 2016 for anything other than near shore racing. 

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34 minutes ago, ryley said:

If you're racing in the US, HMPE has been illegal for lifelines since 2016 for anything other than near shore racing. 

Glad I'm not in the US. UHMWPE is good enough for rigging unsheathed... and provided the lifeline is adequately sheathed ( i.e. double braid) it is more than appropriate for lifelines. It doesn't rust, doesn't absorb water and it is light - what's not too like?  The problem is always how it is terminated and spliced. Here is one link to an interesting discussion document on the application. Note the concerns with the lashing failures in testing.

 

https://chainsropesandanchors.co.nz/fibre-lifelines-what-to-use

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4 minutes ago, splat said:

Glad I'm not in the US. UHMWPE is good enough for rigging unsheathed... and provided the lifeline is adequately sheathed ( i.e. double braid) it is more than appropriate for lifelines. It doesn't rust, doesn't absorb water and it is light - what's not too like?  The problem is always how it is terminated and spliced. Here is one link to an interesting discussion document on the application. Note the concerns with the lashing failures in testing.

 

https://chainsropesandanchors.co.nz/fibre-lifelines-what-to-use

Fair enough, but a) I didn't make the rule, b) most lifelines I've seen in the US are not double braid. Even with a double-braid, the issues I've seen most often aren't the terminations or the splices but around refits on older boats and an inattention to how the lifeline passes through the stanchion. Double-braiding especially at the bow may help with the other issue which is chafe from headsails hitting them.

Also, for near-shore races (daylight races close to shore where rescue is imminent) dyneema is fine. It's only for the offshore and coastal races that it's not allowed. 

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1 hour ago, mgs said:

Take the time to make sure the stanchions aren’t going to chafe the lifelines. There are a couple lifeline specific ropes out there. New England makes one, I think marlow does as well. I’d lash the ends and skip the turnbuckle, the Johnson hardware always has seemed heavy to me. Makes dealing with gates a fun challenge but doable. 
 

Personally, I’d just go with uncoated stainless. 

The threaded studs from CS Johnson are aluminum.  When I got them I had the opposite concern -- that they seemed too light.  In any event, I've been happy with them.  I went with bare dyneema for my lifelines, lashed at one end and with the gate hooks at the other.  Stanchions were new, so no issues with chafe and I'm going on 5 seasons now.  Very happy with the set up and much nicer feel than bare stainless.  Only issue in the US is the stupid racing rules.  I think the dyneema is much easier to inspect and maintain, and my 4 ksbx is never going to generate the kind of friction loads that saw some of the grand prix racers create melting issues with dyneema lifelines when cross loaded against a running sheet.  Kept the old stainless steel ones if I ever need to switch them out to race.

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I used the New England dynemma because it is white. Very important to keep with the color scheme. They are now 11 years old and perfectly good. I lashed the ends and am happy I did, there is some construction stretch and any error in length on the splice, you may need more adjustment than any reasonable turnbuckle will allow. The racing prohibition is just another example of one-rule-fits-all situations. If you don't have those problems, you don't have those problems. 

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38 minutes ago, ryley said:

...most lifelines I've seen in the US are not double braid. Even with a double-braid, the issues I've seen most often aren't the terminations or the splices but around refits on older boats and an inattention to how the lifeline passes through the stanchion. Double-braiding especially at the bow may help with the other issue which is chafe from headsails hitting them.

Also, for near-shore races (daylight races close to shore where rescue is imminent) dyneema is fine. It's only for the offshore and coastal races that it's not allowed. 

Good points.  I'm considering a couple different single-braid dyneemas -- regular inspection is a given both for chafe and UV damage over time (especially for single-braids).  As far as chafing through the stanchions, I'm looking at a dyneema chafe sleeve, but there comes a point where uncoated wire may start to make more sense.  

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If you dont use dyneema just have uncoated wire made and use dyneema lashings at the ends.  That gets rid of the turnbuckles and is approved for racing.

For dyneema I'll echo what the others said.  Make sure no rough spots on stanchions.  I just used bare dyneema brummel eyes at the lashing ends (no thimble or turnbuckles).  For the gate I used sailmakers thimbles on both ends and a CS Johnson splice pelican gate fitting that was attached using a standard long bury eye splice.  I waited to do the final taper, bury and lock stitch after I set gate tension only using a small portion of the threads in the gate fitting.  That allowed me to then tighten the gate with the remaining threads after everything was set.  The dyneema is so much nicer to lean back onto than the wire.  Going on 5 years and still looks great.    

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I did these for a friend’s cruising boat.  I had to replace the studs in the gate fitting, as his stanchions were a little larger than normal, and I didn’t know if the original studs would have enough thread.  I got some stainless steel studs from McMaster Carr.  Removed the original studs with a little heat, and installed the new studs with thread locker. Spliced the Dyneema on with Brummell Splices, then popped the thimbles in and spliced on the lashings. I finished it off with some tubing to go over the lifeline where it passed through the stanchions. We decided to keep the gate fittings with wire, as they were in fine shape. 

7DC62400-B856-441B-BBDA-AC65318FDAAB.jpeg

5BED0E24-208C-468E-AEAC-347E1079ACC3.jpeg

DC28993B-0611-4A50-B47A-3E88A5507A24.jpeg

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1 hour ago, DDW said:

I used the New England dynemma because it is white. Very important to keep with the color scheme. They are now 11 years old and perfectly good. I lashed the ends and am happy I did, there is some construction stretch and any error in length on the splice, you may need more adjustment than any reasonable turnbuckle will allow. The racing prohibition is just another example of one-rule-fits-all situations. If you don't have those problems, you don't have those problems. 

The ability to better adjust for construction stretch is a concern of both form and function.  To your point, using the least amount of threads on the turnbuckle and pelican hook to determine the position of the final splice may over time still not fully compensate for construction stretch. 

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This would be my choice if I were not using 1X19 uncoated wire for my lifelines. I use it for my wind vane self steering control lines.   About 10,000 nm in the last six years and there is no noticeable wear. At sea those control lines are in constant motion. 

https://www.neropes.com/products/grand-prix-racing/product/detail/wr2-ultra/

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Just an idea, rather than putting dyneema or tube chafe sleeve over the life lines, get some 2mm dyneema and do lots of wraps (like old style galv rigging had), glue in place with a little super glue.

Is better than sleeve as you don't need to undo the splice to replace and you can unwind it and rotate 90deg if chafe is only on one edge.

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8 hours ago, solosailor said:

Most, but not entirely.

 

solo, what I *should* have said is that the US SER's do not allow them for anything but coastal racing. Local areas can and do change the SERs.

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Have had them in for a while, the aluminum does corrode a little but not too bad.  It's a bit cheeper and simpler to use a solid thimble and bring through at the gates, gives you four eyes and you can use any pelican hook.  Probably should have used heat shrink for chaffe when building at all transits, but they are holding up ok.  Like El B said constantly have to mess with tension.  If you treat the life lines as anything other than a misc deck catcher for sails etc I would go with bare SS.

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9 hours ago, El Boracho said:

Had them for 10,000 offshore miles. Hated them. Switching back to uncoated s/s. And I am a weight fanatic...

Always loose. Never feel safe and solid.

Yah 

stainless

bottom lifeline could be fabric 

only stainless on the top 

the pictured  Lohndon terminal fitting is poorly engineered for lifelines 

all lifeline  terminations must toggle 

Life line load is not always in tension 

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I had the stainless wire fail on me at a fitting only 4-5 years old, so I felt like I needed to replace all of it. My crew asked for synthetic, 5mm Spectra is class legal although 6mm is recommended.  There is certainly an extra effort to tension.

Class legal: https://j109.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1257&p=1418&hilit=lifeline#p1418

 

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It would be better if the US SER's would allow them in all categories. Race instructions around me are very quick to decide a race is an ocean race, even when it is near shore.

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https://www.neropes.com/products/grand-prix-racing/product/detail/wr2-ultra/

Have had the 1st gen version on my catamaran for close to 7yr. It still is good, although the lashings are sacrificial. It is worth the time and effort to splice eyes with cover for longevity. I have sailmakers’ thimbles in the eyes, lashing termini, and gates have these hooks

9EDB6AE3-50F6-4433-967F-252F4D92E592.jpeg

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On 11/15/2020 at 7:16 PM, mgs said:

Take the time to make sure the stanchions aren’t going to chafe the lifelines. There are a couple lifeline specific ropes out there. New England makes one, I think marlow does as well. I’d lash the ends and skip the turnbuckle, the Johnson hardware always has seemed heavy to me. Makes dealing with gates a fun challenge but doable. 
 

Personally, I’d just go with uncoated stainless. 

NER makes WR2. Very tough stuff.

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On 11/15/2020 at 7:22 PM, ryley said:

If you're racing in the US, HMPE has been illegal for lifelines since 2016 for anything other than near shore racing. 

Actually, that started with World Sailing. So, anywhere.

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On 11/15/2020 at 11:51 PM, El Boracho said:

Had them for 10,000 offshore miles. Hated them. Switching back to uncoated s/s. And I am a weight fanatic...

Always loose. Never feel safe and solid.

You have to pre-stretch them to get rid of construction stretch in the splices. Hard to do in the one end. They do not actually creep since they are not under sustained load.

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3 minutes ago, thinwater said:

You have to pre-stretch them to get rid of construction stretch in the splices. Hard to do in the one end. They do not actually creep since they are not under sustained load.

I disagree. I used the best line, don't recall which...it was a decade ago. It is not construction stretch. It was not the eye splice moving. They stretched continuously until removed. Every single time they came under tension they became slack. Bounce the dinghy on them, someone climbs aboard with them, lash a sail to them, every single time. Sure, one just tightens up the lashing a few millimeters, simple. After using up the few cm of lashing I re-did the forward eye. Also the stanchions leave a little abraded and dark (iron) spot which slowly creeps aft. Not a good shipshape look for safety. I tried plastic tubing sleeves, once, but of course they need to be moved every so often.

But stretch is not my primary complaint. They do not feel reassuring due to their lightness. The rigidity of s/s wire is a big plus for me.

That gate hook posted by @Max Rockatansky above look particularly unsafe. Whatever keeps it closed? Taping it won't help. I went overboard once when one of those let go when hiking out on a race. It had been taped shut for safety...which of course defeats the whole design. A pelican hook is what to use...without a lanyard.

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27 minutes ago, thinwater said:

Actually, that started with World Sailing. So, anywhere.

I hadn't gone back to look at World Sailing's regs, but I see they allow it for cat 4 races too, but not 0-3

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Totally non scientific but I think you get a crap load of thermal movement in synthetic vs SS.  On a super hot day our lifelines and rigging are way tight, cold and shitty they get slack. The gate hook Mac shows is fine as long as lashed including keeper so it doesn't move, but that's a bit of messing around every time you are doing a long passage.  We have the Johnson hardware including hooks.  They have a weak design spot in that it you have the stud in too far, just a few threads, it can keep it from closing all the way and the barrel pin setting.  It clips and seems ok but can pop open.  I have never put any faith in life lines being alot other than catch all for us, clipped into jacklines all the time for the safety side.  Have been on boats that seemed to be ok but the structure involved in the stantions and setup is pretty intense. 

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I am very happy with the over-center gate hook design with my prior boats stainless gate, and had my J/109 converted to the same using the splice eye version. The over-center design feels more reliable when locking, and never fails to release under tension as the older design does.

  • Johnson Marine's LS-3100 Splice Line Fittings allow you to easily splice hi tech Dyneema line to standard lifeline fittings

https://www.defender.com/product.jsp?id=2191291

How can this text be correct on the Defender site? My reading of the 2020 SERS does not agree with this ...

         Both US Sailing and ISAF now allow Dyneema/Spectra life lines for offshore racing

  • Dyneema/Spectra is also a great product for the cruising sailor that wants to replace their stainless steel lifelines

Johnson over center line.jpg

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8 hours ago, El Boracho said:

That gate hook posted by @Max Rockatansky above look particularly unsafe. Whatever keeps it closed?

Under tension, the ring stays in place and they stay hooked. Maybe mine work bc my Louisiana wife put the vudu on them when she fabricated the system. 
 

A general note about synthetic rigging: UHMWPE has an inverse coefficient of expansion. What this means is that it shrinks when warmed, and expands when cooled. If you are somewhere with fairly large diurnal temp shifts, may want to take that into consideration.

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Is there perhaps a mechanical addition to the system that makes sense, like a spring to adjust to the temperature swings, or something that is released when the boat is not in use and unmonitored? 

17 hours ago, Max Rockatansky said:

Under tension, the ring stays in place and they stay hooked. Maybe mine work bc my Louisiana wife put the vudu on them when she fabricated the system. 
 

A general note about synthetic rigging: UHMWPE has an inverse coefficient of expansion. What this means is that it shrinks when warmed, and expands when cooled. If you are somewhere with fairly large diurnal temp shifts, may want to take that into consideration.

 

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22 minutes ago, Max Rockatansky said:

IMO, the main point of going to textile is the weight loss. When you add heavy hardware, or extra hardware, the weight advantage is then lost.

Yes. If weight loss is the goal one should total up the entire system. Pelican hooks are heavy and expensive. I tried textile lines for the weight and because I was on a remote Pacific island where shipping in textile lines was going to be far simpler than the s/s complexity. Similar to my recent replacement of the teak looped 12' handrails with s/s. The weight of s/s is somewhat more...but not as much as one might first think... when the requisite sandpaper, varnish, thinner and brushes are added in the s/s and polish wins out easily. No dock boxes when cruising.

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On 11/19/2020 at 10:35 AM, Max Rockatansky said:

Under tension, the ring stays in place and they stay hooked. Maybe mine work bc my Louisiana wife put the vudu on them when she fabricated the system. 
 

A general note about synthetic rigging: UHMWPE has an inverse coefficient of expansion. What this means is that it shrinks when warmed, and expands when cooled. If you are somewhere with fairly large diurnal temp shifts, may want to take that into consideration.

Yup, a boat rigged with dyneema standing rigging and alloy mast in the Melb-Osaka race, said that in the hot doldrums/topics areas that the rigging went really tight!!  

Dyneema shrinks and alloy expands!!!

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On 11/19/2020 at 1:20 PM, El Boracho said:

Yes. If weight loss is the goal one should total up the entire system. Pelican hooks are heavy and expensive. I tried textile lines for the weight and because I was on a remote Pacific island where shipping in textile lines was going to be far simpler than the s/s complexity. Similar to my recent replacement of the teak looped 12' handrails with s/s. The weight of s/s is somewhat more...but not as much as one might first think... when the requisite sandpaper, varnish, thinner and brushes are added in the s/s and polish wins out easily. No dock boxes when cruising.

I think this is a serious consideration, of you can get SS swagged for a reasonable cost then it doesn't make much sense unless you are counting grams.  The DIYS factor for line is a big plus regardless of weight.  It's the reason I went with the lifelines and the shrouds. At the time it made alot more sense band was much more cost effective.

For a setup where you are splitting hairs on weight I don't think I would ever include gates or any of the other stuff, it makes no sense.  If you were doing just lifelines then that would be the focus.

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On 11/19/2020 at 12:48 PM, Max Rockatansky said:

IMO, the main point of going to textile is the weight loss. When you add heavy hardware, or extra hardware, the weight advantage is then lost.

Do you have a suggestion for lightweight gates?

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7 hours ago, thinwater said:

Do you have a suggestion for lightweight gates?

What I’ve seen done:

ferrules/low friction rings/whatever the cool kids call them as gate eyes inside the stanchions. The gate was just a wichard snap hook that clipped into the ring. I suppose you could use a soft shackle instead. 
the gate was spliced with a bit of tail sticking out so you could milk it tight when closed or induce slack when you wanted it open. 
 

the whole system took a handful or more seconds to work, but it worked. 
 

 

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On 11/19/2020 at 2:16 AM, El Boracho said:

I disagree. I used the best line, don't recall which...it was a decade ago. It is not construction stretch. It was not the eye splice moving. They stretched continuously until removed. Every single time they came under tension they became slack. Bounce the dinghy on them, someone climbs aboard with them, lash a sail to them, every single time. Sure, one just tightens up the lashing a few millimeters, simple. After using up the few cm of lashing I re-did the forward eye. Also the stanchions leave a little abraded and dark (iron) spot which slowly creeps aft. Not a good shipshape look for safety. I tried plastic tubing sleeves, once, but of course they need to be moved every so often.

But stretch is not my primary complaint. They do not feel reassuring due to their lightness. The rigidity of s/s wire is a big plus for me.

That gate hook posted by @Max Rockatansky above look particularly unsafe. Whatever keeps it closed? Taping it won't help. I went overboard once when one of those let go when hiking out on a race. It had been taped shut for safety...which of course defeats the whole design. A pelican hook is what to use...without a lanyard.

If you had pre-stretched the lifelines on a chain block or winch, for 2-3 hours each, this wouldn't of been an issue

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17 minutes ago, mezaire said:

If you had pre-stretched the lifelines on a chain block or winch, for 2-3 hours each, this wouldn't of been an issue

You are describing 'bedding-in' where the fibers or construction is forced to find its tightest position. It is well known (see any technical description) that Dyneema will creep continuously until it breaks. Newer versions creep less, but it is far from zero and must be accounted for. Vectran would be great except for the weathering issue. That is what I replaced my steering cable with (about the same time as the lifeline experiment 10 years ago). It is loaded continuously guitar string tight. Stretch or creep has been undetectable ... never adjusted.

But creep aside, I did not like the wet noodle-uncertain-always-loose feel and slightly abraded look of the textile lifelines.

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On 11/21/2020 at 7:25 PM, SASSAFRASS said:

I think this is a serious consideration, of you can get SS swagged for a reasonable cost then it doesn't make much sense unless you are counting grams.  The DIYS factor for line is a big plus regardless of weight.  It's the reason I went with the lifelines and the shrouds. At the time it made alot more sense band was much more cost effective.

For a setup where you are splitting hairs on weight I don't think I would ever include gates or any of the other stuff, it makes no sense.  If you were doing just lifelines then that would be the focus.

There's the rub.  Hard to get competent swaging done at a reasonable cost anymore, and then you have to do the research to see who has a good swaging machine.  Failure on new swages is a thing.  I have seen brand-new swages with a significant bend in them too.

I'm for synthetic lifelines as long as they are replaced every few years.  So much cheaper and easier to spec out and install as long as you learn how to do locked brummels, and also the special case of locked brummel without access to the free end.  After a bit of practice a splice will take 10 minutes or less.

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^ need to put out the Evans Batman light, I thought the brummels Mobius or otherwise were no longer the way to go.  Just a tapered bury and lockstich.  Haven't followed it too much but seems like that's what I remember.

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5 hours ago, SASSAFRASS said:

^ need to put out the Evans Batman light, I thought the brummels Mobius or otherwise were no longer the way to go.  Just a tapered bury and lockstich.  Haven't followed it too much but seems like that's what I remember.

Maybe Evans will chime in but I think I remember a small strength advantage for the tapered bury and lockstitch.  For lifelines the splice choice shouldn't make much difference because the dyneema is much stronger than the wire it replaced (if chafe is not an issue).  I used locked brummel splices for everything but the gates which were taper and lockstitch.  The gate tails were left out so I could tension and finalize gate length before I did the lockstitch, trim, taper and bury.

 

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^^  I personally would not do locked Brummel's, but it is not a huge issue either way.  With or without is fine.  The brummel distorts the braid and reduces strength (of the system) by around 10%.  It's one (and only) advantage is that it eliminates the possibility of low load slipping of the slice, but if you do a satisfactorily long bury and stitch it that also eliminates the slipping (at full strength*).  Brummels are not ever used in any commercial high strength/safety application (like high load overhead lifting) and generally they are not the splice recommended by the rope manufacturers.

*   I should note that if you do shitty stitching you can also reduce strength by again distorting the braid.

The main safety issue with dyneema lifelines is being cut by rough grooves left by prior wire in the holes thru the stanchions.  You really really need to make those polished smooth.  That has been the cause of every single failure that I am aware of.  The several cases of this happening were the primary reason World Sailing reversed itself and banned dynnema (for mono cat 0-3).

There was some concern in the grand prix world  (The Comanche crew made high profile comments about this) over sheets burning/melting/cutting dyneema life lines when they were rapidly released . . . but I am not aware of this ever causing an actual failure (it is possible it has somewhere and I just have not heard of it).

UV does degrade the line strength (by around 50%).  And unfortunately, braided covers do NOT provide significant protection from this (braided covers DO provide potential protection against chafe and the 'sheet burning' possibility mentioned above).  To get real UV protection you need a solid cover, like continuous heat shrink tubing or rubber dip (as you typically see on high-end textile checks and runners)  But if you go even slightly oversized you still have much more than adequate strength.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

^^  I personally would not do locked Brummel's, but it is not a huge issue either way.  With or without is fine.  The brummel distorts the braid and reduces strength (of the system) by around 10%.  It's one (and only) advantage is that it eliminates the possibility of low load slipping of the slice, but if you do a satisfactorily long bury and stitch it that also eliminates the slipping (at full strength*).  Brummels are not ever used in any commercial high strength/safety application (like high load overhead lifting) and generally they are not the splice recommended by the rope manufacturers.

*   I should note that if you do shitty stitching you can also reduce strength by again distorting the braid.

The main safety issue with dyneema lifelines is being cut by rough grooves left by prior wire in the holes thru the stanchions.  You really really need to make those polished smooth.  That has been the cause of every single failure that I am aware of.  The several cases of this happening were the primary reason World Sailing reversed itself and banned dynnema (for mono cat 0-3).

There was some concern in the grand prix world  (The Comanche crew made high profile comments about this) over sheets burning/melting/cutting dyneema life lines when they were rapidly released . . . but I am not aware of this ever causing an actual failure (it is possible it has somewhere and I just have not heard of it).

UV does degrade the line strength (by around 50%).  And unfortunately, braided covers do NOT provide significant protection from this (braided covers DO provide potential protection against chafe and the 'sheet burning' possibility mentioned above).  To get real UV protection you need a solid cover, like continuous heat shrink tubing or rubber dip (as you typically see on high-end textile checks and runners)  But if you go even slightly oversized you still have much more than adequate strength.

 

 

 

 

When done correctly , fabric lifelines are expensive and a lot of work 

little weight is saved , windage is added 

lower lifelines A7560C3D-C327-474D-A302-07497D7213CA.thumb.png.d3c289827495dfc109d2e0453614977e.png are the best candidate for fabric 

 

 

 

 

12BD3C74-EB5C-4AC5-B17A-437DC4216009.png

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On 11/22/2020 at 6:57 AM, mgs said:

What I’ve seen done:

ferrules/low friction rings/whatever the cool kids call them as gate eyes inside the stanchions. The gate was just a wichard snap hook that clipped into the ring. I suppose you could use a soft shackle instead. 
the gate was spliced with a bit of tail sticking out so you could milk it tight when closed or induce slack when you wanted it open. 
 

the whole system took a handful or more seconds to work, but it worked. 
 

 

A ferrule is tottally different. Low friction ring.

I think what you are talking about is a whoopie sling splice. The biggest problem is that they cannot be released under any load. You have to get some slack.

 

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2 minutes ago, thinwater said:

A ferrule is tottally different. Low friction ring.

I think what you are talking about is a whoopie sling splice. The biggest problem is that they cannot be released under any load. You have to get some slack.

 

They could only be made up hand tight as it was set up. Not the best arrangement to be sure. 

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8 hours ago, estarzinger said:

UV does degrade the line strength (by around 50%). .....  But if you go even slightly oversized you still have much more than adequate strength.

Thing is, rust and C.C. reduce the strength of SS lifelines, and the damage is usually as hidden. I used NER Endura 8mm on my uppers, new strength 14,500 lbs. Should be adequate, even with a little UV thrown in. 

Haven't worried much about running the genoa sheet over them. :D

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  • 4 weeks later...
1 hour ago, b393capt said:

I came across a couple of things that would be good to close this thread with.

(1) Australia - Lifeline Materials Special Regulations, Part 2, Section 3, Fixed Equipment. Note the references to professional advice that was sought on the subject of H.M.P.E. lifelines, that has decided in favor of the material
 https://cdn.revolutionise.com.au/cups/sailing/files/bn1zle3qqnfxydut.pdf

(2) World Sailing Offshore Regulations 2020-2021. Allows for H.M.P.E.

https://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/WSOffshoreSpecialRegulations20202021updated11December2020-[26824].pdf

Jump to Specification 3.14.16

Only allowed for Category 4 -- prohibited for everything else after they reversed course several years ago.

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On 11/15/2020 at 6:22 PM, Mulligan said:

I did these for a friend’s cruising boat.  I had to replace the studs in the gate fitting, as his stanchions were a little larger than normal, and I didn’t know if the original studs would have enough thread.  I got some stainless steel studs from McMaster Carr.  Removed the original studs with a little heat, and installed the new studs with thread locker. Spliced the Dyneema on with Brummell Splices, then popped the thimbles in and spliced on the lashings. I finished it off with some tubing to go over the lifeline where it passed through the stanchions. We decided to keep the gate fittings with wire, as they were in fine shape. 

What did you use for the tubing?  Did you lash or whip to prevent it from sliding out of stanchions? 

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I used split tubing, applied with a rubber based seam tape. The stanchions were perfectly smooth, with a large radius chamfer.  We didn’t feel that the tubing was necessary, but it can’t hurt.

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Why no mechanical adjustment, to change length for different temperatures to meet one design rules that limit deflection to 4" (j 109)

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28 minutes ago, b393capt said:

Why no mechanical adjustment, to change length for different temperatures to meet one design rules that limit deflection to 4" (j 109)

Dyneema  thermal stability is terrible 

expansion and contraction 

up to .5 mm per meter over a seasonal temp cycle 

 

Top lifelines are alway too tight or too loose 

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Would a turnbuckle make sense in the northeast?

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  • 2 weeks later...
1 hour ago, Quickstep192 said:

For people who have used the Johnson Dyneema fittings with the splice eye, do you know what diameter the eye is?

From my fuzzy, rum addled memory, I believe I used 1/4 (6mm) Amsteel Blue, and it wasn’t a tight fit!  5/16” would pass through without any problem!  3/8” might be a tight fit!  

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3 hours ago, Quickstep192 said:

For people who have used the Johnson Dyneema fittings with the splice eye, do you know what diameter the eye is?

Can't fit a fat finger in it. Medium to small fingers are OK. Sorry, don't have any to measure any more.

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On 5/16/2021 at 5:25 PM, Mulligan said:

I used split tubing, applied with a rubber based seam tape. The stanchions were perfectly smooth, with a large radius chamfer.  We didn’t feel that the tubing was necessary, but it can’t hurt.

I did mine today, replaced 36 year old lifelines with 1/4” Amsteel Dyneema. I decided not to buy the Johnson fittings and just lash them with 7/64” dyneema. I did the whole job for like $130 and it looks sharp. Maybe it’s a fad, but sure looks good. The lead rigger at the yard came buy when I was starting and I asked him about the fittings and he said all his race boats use lashings and the fittings are a waste of money. I had spent a stupid amount of time trying to figure out tubing for the stanchions but ultimately went without, they aren’t really rough and I’ll see how it goes. It looks clean without and if it wears I will replace, not trying to get decades out of it. Anyway, I’m happy.

 

D059A72A-E692-4E82-9CD6-DDED2957B6E9.jpeg

1105AC54-6D76-4B2F-A563-7A9484006041.jpeg

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12 hours ago, loneshark64 said:

I did mine today

nice.

Only thing I would have done just a little differently, is to take one or two wraps of the lashing right about the whole pulpit tube. Very infrequently those lashing bails pull off because the weld area is not big and going right around the tube protects you from that off chance failure mode. And it still looks nice and neat so no downside.

 

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24 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

nice.

Only thing I would have done just a little differently, is to take one or two wraps of the lashing right about the whole pulpit tube. Very infrequently those lashing bails pull off because the weld area is not big and going right around the tube protects you from that off chance failure mode. And it still looks nice and neat so no downside.

 

You know, after I did it I saw pictures like that on this thread. You are right and if I have to redo the lashings to tighten up later in the year I am going to do that.

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On 5/17/2021 at 9:55 AM, slug zitski said:

Dyneema lifelines are a fad 

 

i dont use them 

 

I use them, I am not going back.
* I had nearly new stainless fail on me, got me looking at other options
* affordable to replace if in question
* no measurements needed like stainless. 
* crew likes it when hiking out
* always looks good
 

I would do better next time.
* find my old turnbuckles and use them, making them adjustable ahead of an one design inspection would be more convient than redoing knots.

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On 11/21/2020 at 8:47 PM, thinwater said:

Do you have a suggestion for lightweight gates?

Lift your knee to your chest and step over. 

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