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Help me spec a new rig


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Wanted to canvas opinions on a reasonably big decision I have to make soon and there are usually clued up people on this board.

Boat is a 1997 Projection 920 (similar to a J/92s I suppose?), 30ft with frac rig and bowsprit for asym kites. Predominantly used for 1H/2H inshore and cat 3 offshore racing.

I had the rig craned out this year for an inspection given that the standing rigging is about 10 years old. The rigger has effectively condemned it and looking at it I am not surprised. Previous owners have variously (i) added a masthead spin halyard, (ii) filled the inside lower quarter with foam (keel stepped, stopping leaks), (iii) drilled drainage holes and (iv) added a load of heavy brackets at the masthead. At some point the chainplates were moved 30cm aft, allowing swept spreaders to be fitted and a swap to non-overlapping jibs.

Would appreciate thoughts on a couple of key decisions which are all variants of the ratings vs performance vs cost equation. Planning to buy new main and jibs (replacing 2016 Nordac).

  1. Stick with current dimensions or redesign (given evolution from CHS to IRC, swap from overlappers to jibs). I don't really want to buy new kites (frac and MH) so that may be a limiting factor
  2. Carbon or alu (boom / stick / spreaders)
  3. Replace boom or hack current
  4. Slugs or bolt rope
  5. Rod/wire standing rigging
  6. Many others I have missed

All the above in context of a reasonable budget for a 20+ year old boat targeting mid-fleet Solent performance on a good day.

Attaching some pics showing the as designed chainplate location and the current setup.

Profile Drawing iPhone crop.png

WBRT.jpg

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If the budget allows carbon tube. See what is available off the shelf. Contact the US suppliers who might have a tube that is on the shelf or a cancelled project. Forte comes to mind for smaller boats like yours. Scroll down past the round tubes. https://fortecarbon.com/marine/mast-sections/

Yes to keeping the boom unless it's horrible or has big issues with usability/too many holes, etc.

Yes, I'd stick with wire.

 

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A 2nd hand Farr 30 or Figaro 2  carbon rig should fit the bill, it did for the J/92

Otherwise, new for IRC, an alum, 9/10th MH, 105% headsail mast with dyform wire should do the trick for decent money

Use the same boom, unless shot.

 

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3 hours ago, pilotdave said:

I like your thinking but I'm in the UK. J/92s (P=11.85m) or Farr 30 (P=12.36) rigs are also good ideas but both would be a bit 'turbo' versus the current rig (P=11.25). Fig 2 (P=13) would definitely be too big! Boat feels reasonably powered up 1H/2H and we usually get decent breeze in the Solent so not necessarily looking to go bigger.

Anyone have an idea of what the IRC penalty for a carbon rig is in this size range? We rate 0.985 w/ J2, 0.973 w/ J3 at the moment.

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11 hours ago, JL92S said:

Carbon single spreader rig, alu spreaders and dyform rigging. Keep the boom. Bolt rope main

Wouldn't it have to be quite a chunky section to go single spreader? J/88 rig would be close to the right size but I think it's deck-stepped.

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24 minutes ago, Snowden said:

Wouldn't it have to be quite a chunky section to go single spreader? J/88 rig would be close to the right size but I think it's deck-stepped.

A single spreader mast with D2s to help support the upper panel should carry a lower cog than a twin spreader. Pogo do a similar thing with the 30. A J88 mast will be too short and I don’t rate the quality that high. They blow their spreaders up768D2B4B-4FA7-40E3-BB11-868DBBD0D6CD.thumb.jpeg.2d429e915edcd07794ba44853f73e6a5.jpeg

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6 hours ago, MiddayGun said:

Nice looking boat, you got me googling the Projection 920 and I came across this.
https://www.sail-world.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2423&PN=83&title=projection-762-help-please
Looks like a fun ride.

If you go Aluminum the Z-Spar Z351 section seems pretty popular for boats around that size. (Archambault 31 etc)

Good suggestion, I have the Z-Spar Z351 on my second Archambault 31, the first one had a VMG SoroMap which I would not buy too soft.  Very happy with the Z351, stiff and weight is great for alum.  I have a two spreader with long aft raked spreaders, chain plates at sheer.

Also suggest you do NOT go just bolt rope, add Ronstan Series 6 cars to the stock Z-351 section with a mast gate.  Fast easy reefing, cars live on the mast by just pulling fast pins to remove main.  Cars are ball bearing and as smooth as any Harken system I have used in the past on my Quest.

Best of luck getting the right combo for your sailing.

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Just now, Kincora said:

Also suggest you do NOT go just bolt rope, add Ronstan Series 6 cars to the stock Z-351 section with a mast gate

Love the idea of not messing around with a boltrope singlehanded, BUT with slugs wouldn't I need a trysail track or deep (>40% luff reduction) 2nd reef to race cat 3?

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Good point, I use a very deep third reef on the main.  Have new one coming from Doyle, Stratus.  And Stratus furling SS/HW jib on new inner chainplate and halyard going in this winter.

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1 hour ago, Snowden said:

Love the idea of not messing around with a boltrope singlehanded, BUT with slugs wouldn't I need a trysail track or deep (>40% luff reduction) 2nd reef to race cat 3?

Just as an addition to Kincoras point, I've got a Z351 section on my MG27, single spreader, deck stepped, P = 10.2m so about 1m shy of yours. (Close to a 9/10th rig) 
I use slugs rather than the cars and even with my fully battened main they slide very freely, cars would be better of course but it depends on your budget.

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Hi,

In Europe, with same range of profiles you also have the M350 from AG+ Spars. It has supplied several J92S and A31 and now the Tofinou 9.7.

For the first two boats, it's equiped with two tapered spreaders' stages. Discontinuous  with aluminum machined ends. So aluminum spars with light parts and they do lot of custom boats. 

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if you have the money - carbon spar and soft rigging - best way of losing weight aloft ; get the rig manufacturer to work with you as to how you sails the boat (reefing/headsails etc) so they can design rig to match

- would not go for an 'one size fits all off the self solution - unless it is specially for the boat

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How much do you expect to pay for this new rig and new sails for this 24 year old boat? It begins to approach reasonable cost to performance question. With the rig, the hull will have to be tightened and refreshed. Still leaves you with an older one off that takes serious phrf hits.

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9 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

How much do you expect to pay for this new rig and new sails for this 24 year old boat? It begins to approach reasonable cost to performance question. With the rig, the hull will have to be tightened and refreshed. Still leaves you with an older one off that takes serious phrf hits.

All of which would be relevant if racing on a different continent under phrf ;-). The IRC rule is pretty conservative in this size range and our rating is pretty fair.

My assumption is you can get this done <£20k, which is a lot cheaper than buying a new boat.

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20K Including new sails? and a hull refit? Maybe DIY and used from a donor boat...

Having recently come off a 1D35 refresh -  you think can be done can but the cost go up and up approach 2/3s of a new boat with ratings which make it difficult to compete in our groups.

 

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22 minutes ago, Snowden said:

If it's more it's more but I'm not sure what this hull refit you are talking about is...

I am only guessing but I do not think you you were the first owner of this vessel. You/we have only educated guesses on her use and history. Cosmetically things may appear fine but hide other problems.

You are changing the loads on the boat, mast fittings and new chainplates will need to be addressed, things repositioned. Increased loads from a new rig on the old boat will stress the hull. Moreover the boat will need some deck work and weak spots redone. wisdom suggests if you are going to change the loads - the keel should be dropped and bolts inspected. 

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8 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

You are changing the loads on the boat, mast fittings and new chainplates will need to be addressed, things repositioned. A 24 year old boat will need some deck work and weak spots redone. wisdom suggests if you are going to change the loads - a keel should be dropped and bolts inspected. 

I think you may overstate the scope of the exercise here. The chainplates were done in 2009-10 w/naval architect oversight. I've owned the boat for a good few years so know the condition well.

If it was cost effective it wouldn't be yacht racing.

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34 minutes ago, Snowden said:

I think you may have misunderstood the scope of the exercise here. The new rig will be substantially the same as the old rig that was up since 1997 and no change since the chainplates were moved in 2009-10 (w/ naval architect oversight).

If it was cost effective it wouldn't be yacht racing.

I saw you posted turboing the boat, getting new sails, using carbon fiber and replacement of the olds and ends that all add up.  My only point was that making those changes will extend your budget and time. I was also suggesting when you begin to do that you might as well do the other things that make the boat better in safety factors and will deliver the performance in all conditions.

Rather than do that, could you just replace the standing rigging, get new performance sails for the existing rig, updated the cockpit controls, paint the original the mast and boom for quite similar performance leaving more beer and crew party money?

In the end it is about yacht racing. there is always someone faster and better  than you in your class. Enjoy the moments with best mates.

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Just now, Black Jack said:

I saw you posted turboing the boat, getting new sails, using carbon fiber and replacement of the olds and ends that all add up.  My only point was that making those changes will extend your budget and time. I was also suggesting when you begin to do that you might as well do the other things that make the boat better in safety factors and will deliver the performance in all conditions.

Rather than do that, could you just replace the standing rigging, got new performance sails for the existing rig, updated the cockpit controls, paint the original the mast and boom for quite similar performance leaving more beer and crew party money?

Ah, see what you are saying. The idea is not to turbo - the boat is powered up enough shorthanded and we sail in a reasonably windy venue (Solent).

New white sails will happen either way and I think the current stick is dead, which narrows the range of decisions.

A little beer money goes a long way when you sail solo ;-)

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6 hours ago, Snowden said:

The chainplates were done in 2009-10 w/naval architect oversight.

Contact him for more details what he did and his calculations, then go to a couple of sparmaker/dealers and see what they have in mind.

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Cmon!

Optimized for dual purpose:

1. Put the chain plates on the gunwale.

2. Fuck off the overlappers.

3. Put inner forestay to 2nd spreader.

4. Acquire Solent jib for said stay.

5. Solent should be in range at ~ 20 tws, specially in rough water.

6 If you can get carbon tube.

7. Go smashthem.

The yacht will sail better and rate lower. To optimise you may need to shift the headstay forward and make the commensurately longer, approximately in the ratio E:J

Capiche?

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7 minutes ago, Frogman56 said:

3. Put inner forestay to 2nd spreader.

4. Acquire Solent jib for said stay.

5. Solent should be in range at ~ 20 tws, specially in rough water.

Great idea, definitely one to investigate when speccing the rig. J is quite short so not sure how efficient the solent would be but assume could use the same fittings for a spin staysail? I like the Dehler 30od version which I think is furling solent w/ no fixed inner forestay.

dehler-30-one-design-photo-exterieur-2019-dehler-30-one-design_2179739644995794776_768_0_0.jpg

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All good, the Dehler set is a good boatshow look, but you need wire inner fs at around 60% of J. With just a big open terminal at the deck.   That would be mostly hand wound..

With the overall rig set at low range settings, and a few other tricks, you can get a setup for 8 to 35 that is exerent!!

Frog

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Hold on a mo!  A solent and a staysail are not the same thing.  A solent, as used on Dehler 30 or Pogo 30, is a big assed jib still.  It is a shit load bigger than 60% of J, it goes higher than a 2nd spreader (both Dehler and Pogo use an intermediate hound, not a spreader base).  Just think about it: 20knots wind is a normal J3 range, which is roughly a flat 95-100% size.

If you are going Solent, to get a big enough sail the stay is a long way forward and high, especially if you want it to work for 20 knots.  Therefore practically it has to be removable, or your big jib is a furler and you furl it to tack.

A Stay sail can work at 60%, but it's practical use as a standalone upwind sail is 30 knots (J4+) but it can be permanent, and the big jib should tack around it.

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How many angels on the head of da pin?

Pure short-handed setup as indicated with  (nominally) hanked 3 on ordinary forestay. With a ~ 600mm reef.

For most designs, good to around 22 tws, shorthanded, +/_ main reef.

Then the Solent thingy, well balanced with 1 or 2 reefs, and ok with 3.

Adjust for full crew RM?

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Yes, with your short J, I would go with the reefable no.3, and then have a racey 1/2 for fully crewed if you do much of it.

I think Frogman's "Small Solent" (shhh, it's really a staysail) will get used 1 day a year, and you'll have a permanent inner stay to arse around with.

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Canztead,

Thinking we are a bit passage racey, so the inner stay is tricked up to remove or replace plus minus a minute.

Not for short up the Solent changing sails.

More like what you would do for Channel or Fastnet 

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21 minutes ago, Black Jack said:

How tender is the boat?  Appears to need some flesh on the rail.

Not especially. The rig is not huge for the LOA and there is a decent size L-bulb (not the modern IRC type fin). Fundamentally a cruiser / racer, not like a Farr 30.

That pic is taken with an old main; the 2016 one is smaller and optimised for SH - Norths recommended a shorter E and slightly more roach up top.

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^ I found that a shorter E and increased roach top has made a difference on my 1/2 tonner. In the windy San Francisco bay, it has proven to be quite effective. This next year - we will test the new set of sails, enhanced rig and setup against faster, newer boats. It really has become more of an endurance test of the crew rather than the boat. Not getting bashed and feeling beat up means we are more likely to finish.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Having done a bit more research the carbon option is increasingly interesting. The Z-spars recommended Z351 profile weighs about 3.4 kg/m whereas the AG+ carbon equivalent is 1.9 kg/m. Back of the envelope maths suggests that's roughly equivalent to having a small person hiking on the rail (14m mast / 3m beam) before you consider any other benefits. 

http://www.agplus-spars.fr/ecommerce/gb/content/14-sailing-boats-from-25-to-35-

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If you're going down the carbon route, I would check with Axxon, they are rigging a lot of boats at the RORC and are sensibly cheaper than the others.

The only thing about carbon on an older boat is that it's stiffer and you need to have stiffer sails and reinforce rigging points as well as other bits other bits. One Aphrodite 101 picked a carbon mast and added 26 meters of reinforcement in a 33 footer as it was bending a lot more....

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1 hour ago, Snowden said:

Having done a bit more research the carbon option is increasingly interesting. The Z-spars recommended Z351 profile weighs about 3.4 kg/m whereas the AG+ carbon equivalent is 1.9 kg/m. Back of the envelope maths suggests that's roughly equivalent to having a small person hiking on the rail (14m mast / 3m beam) before you consider any other benefits. 

http://www.agplus-spars.fr/ecommerce/gb/content/14-sailing-boats-from-25-to-35-

you have a similar P to me.  check out the Young 88 alu tubes.

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On 11/30/2020 at 12:32 PM, Snowden said:

Having done a bit more research the carbon option is increasingly interesting. The Z-spars recommended Z351 profile weighs about 3.4 kg/m whereas the AG+ carbon equivalent is 1.9 kg/m. Back of the envelope maths suggests that's roughly equivalent to having a small person hiking on the rail (14m mast / 3m beam) before you consider any other benefits. 

http://www.agplus-spars.fr/ecommerce/gb/content/14-sailing-boats-from-25-to-35-

Going carbon is nice if you can afford it.  Would love to replace my Z351 with a carbon section.  I did a lot of pricing and $28,000 ready to install was the lowest I could find, and lowest is rarely the best.

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Yeah, I guess my perspective is if I’m installing a new stick then the actual tube itself is only a % of the total cost. 

what would make me sail faster is actually doing more training but my time is more rationed than £

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On 11/16/2020 at 5:20 PM, Snowden said:

Wanted to canvas opinions on a reasonably big decision I have to make soon and there are usually clued up people on this board.

Boat is a 1997 Projection 920 (similar to a J/92s I suppose?), 30ft with frac rig and bowsprit for asym kites. Predominantly used for 1H/2H inshore and cat 3 offshore racing.

I had the rig craned out this year for an inspection given that the standing rigging is about 10 years old. The rigger has effectively condemned it and looking at it I am not surprised. Previous owners have variously (i) added a masthead spin halyard, (ii) filled the inside lower quarter with foam (keel stepped, stopping leaks), (iii) drilled drainage holes and (iv) added a load of heavy brackets at the masthead. At some point the chainplates were moved 30cm aft, allowing swept spreaders to be fitted and a swap to non-overlapping jibs.

Would appreciate thoughts on a couple of key decisions which are all variants of the ratings vs performance vs cost equation. Planning to buy new main and jibs (replacing 2016 Nordac).

  1. Stick with current dimensions or redesign (given evolution from CHS to IRC, swap from overlappers to jibs). I don't really want to buy new kites (frac and MH) so that may be a limiting factor
  2. Carbon or alu (boom / stick / spreaders)
  3. Replace boom or hack current
  4. Slugs or bolt rope
  5. Rod/wire standing rigging
  6. Many others I have missed

All the above in context of a reasonable budget for a 20+ year old boat targeting mid-fleet Solent performance on a good day.

Attaching some pics showing the as designed chainplate location and the current setup.

Profile Drawing iPhone crop.png

WBRT.jpg

Make sure you can use a staysail,  when reaching and broad reaching,  to ventilate the lee side of the main 

Staysail tack on centerline and tack to windward 

lengthen  spinpole for handling the poled out jib when running hard downwind 

a leeward reaching  strut to get the Genoa leed , leech tension,  right when off wind 

Leeward spreader roots take beating on aft swept rigs when running hard downwind , be sure they are up to the task 

spi halyard chafe is an issue offshore ,refine your goggles , halyard exits

run a permanent boom preventer.. from mainsheet boom blocks , along boom , then down the vang and back to cabinnwinch  ...this preventer is valuable when close reaching because it removes leech tension from the vang 

broken goosenecks and vang attachments from overloading are all to common  

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just a quick Christmas update to say that I checked under the tree this morning and there was a nice new carbon stick for the boat there. Thanks for all input on this thread  

She’s also getting a bit of love underwater (new rudder bearings, sanding back 24 years of antifoul, durepox, keel alignment) so the only excuse for lack of results next year will be my sailing abilities!

will post pics of the process if any interest. 

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5CE8AB38-2D18-455E-AAA1-435270348F25.thumb.jpeg.4c3ac17e8d43f3af43a3b28ba537c9bd.jpeg
 

not sure why it’s sideways but here is the hull after a good deal of sanding. Green is some kind of barrier coat and you can see some grey and several layers of hempel hard racing black antifoul. Thanks to Tim at Race Yacht Services for doing the hard work. 

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Green & Grey will be most likely be Gelshield. Shame to sand though it. 

Just wondering how a keel alignment works? Are you talking fore & aft, or side to side? My keel bolts are pretty snug so I don't know how much 'adjustability' a keel should have. 
Make sure to post pics of the new stick. 

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10 hours ago, MiddayGun said:

Green & Grey will be most likely be Gelshield. Shame to sand though it. 
Just wondering how a keel alignment works? 

It is most likely Gelshield - given the age though we are taking it all the way back (almost 30 kgs off). Boat is dry sailed so will have durepox and no AF.

To align the keel (and rudder, saildrive and rig) you first get the lasers out. Then it is a process of conforming the mating surfaces and scraping out old bedding compound such that it lands in the right place when you tighten the bolts. Saildrive you can shift the engine around on its mounts if need be

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Yes - I had also noticed a bit of that, though it was partly due to the rig issues upthread.

The other advantages of having the keel off are to take a good look at the bolts and hull structure as well as to weigh it to help with the IRC bulb weight field and get an Rm calc for the new rig. My certificate says ‘default’ at the moment which I suspect is penalising the rating.
All the 920s (there are 3-4) had keels changed after launch in the CHS/IRC crossover. 

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On 12/28/2020 at 9:39 AM, Snowden said:

btw extra internet points for those that figured out why the AF hasn’t come off the keel yet

So as not to blow the faired profile away? I actually don't know. 

I'd thought of dropping mine to take a good look at the studs, but since its lead then they're no doubt J bolts cast in place, I can't really inspect past what's poking out. 
I'm interested to find out how far off square your keel / rudder are. What do they use a reference point?

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30 minutes ago, MiddayGun said:

So as not to blow the faired profile away? I actually don't know. 

I'd thought of dropping mine to take a good look at the studs, but since its lead then they're no doubt J bolts cast in place, I can't really inspect past what's poking out. 
I'm interested to find out how far off square your keel / rudder are. What do they use a reference point?

Because it's cast iron so would rust extremely quickly with nothing to cover it

You have to align everything with everything (chainplates, deck collar, mast heel, rudder bearings, stem etc) and after a few goes around you figure out what is straight and what is not. Ultimately the trailing edge of the keel was a few cm off centreline and the bulb was a few cm over to port. Thankfully the rest of the boat seems straight so the new rudder bearings can go where the old ones were and we can fix the keel alignment by rebedding the bolts.

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  • 2 weeks later...

We are getting close on the new rig specs. This proposal would see the forestay going up 90 cm or so - this is a compromise (jib aspect ratio already high with short J) but the unsupported topmast section (@ <90% fractional) was causing issues with MH kites and no runners.

CC138 is Selden’s largest keelboat carbon section but it is quite a bit smaller than the Z spars Z301 alu it is replacing. 
 

 

17D8B387-4D7A-475B-BDBB-96EB85498AA3.png

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General pics ready for painting (will be a grey Durepox finish)

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Keel and hull after alignment - the shiny grey compound hardens and locks the alignment between the mating surfaces. There was a load of nasty rust on top of the fin where it was not properly glassed which the guys have ground back and repaired.

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Rudder stock with new bearings on and a couple more layers of directional carbon to stop it flexing at speed (we are still trying to beat the previous owners' record of a 19 kt surf). There is a clamp that bolts on between these two that the pilot quadrant keys into.

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Some water was getting into the resin core (this boat is an early SCRIMP type construction) around the lower bearing, which was scraped out and re-injected

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New tube and bearing carriers in. This is a Jefa self-aligning system. After all this had cured a notch gets cut out in the centre for the pilot quadrant

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I hope so! I wonder if the J/88 experience is driving what seems like conservatism on the forestay height. Shipping stuff across the border into 'Global Britain' is increasingly painful post-Brexit so the fact that Selden make the carbon rigs in Gosport is a bit of a draw.

Probably going to delete the 2:1 halyard and go for a 1x masthead and 1x frac halyard keeping my 2:1 sprit end tackline for the FR0. Seems like a lot of string at the top of the mast for a boat this size otherwise and realistically I am not going to mouse it every time I'm not using it.

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Hi,

I used to co-own Wee Bear, and it is great to see she is getting pimped.

We had 5 great years with her, and despite the fact that we were running her on a much tighter budget, we had some decent results, both fully crewed and double handed. We would have kept her if one of the co-owners didn't move away from Southampton.

It is also great to see that our record still holds ! This was during a double handed round the Island race (going the "wrong" way for some reason) in a long surf using the A3.

She is a truly great fun boat. She can be challenging to get going upwind, and lots of fun in a blow and waves downwind. One year, we averaged around 15 knots between the Needles and Bembridge round the island.

 

Some photos from the past below...

 

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49 minutes ago, Bebmoumoute said:

548516_10150805507549806_216342762_n.jpg

I am glad to see some independent verification of that number! We got to 16.3 2H on the bloody freezing Cervantes trophy back in 2019, again with A3 up... must try harder.

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53 minutes ago, Bebmoumoute said:

I used to co-own Wee Bear, and it is great to see she is getting pimped.

She is a truly great fun boat. She can be challenging to get going upwind, and lots of fun in a blow and waves downwind. One year, we averaged around 15 knots between the Needles and Bembridge round the island.

Thanks for the pics and the memories. As you say, a great fun boat! I've had her since mid-2018 and have been experimenting and learning all that time. Last year we made some progress getting in the groove upwind, I think swapping the furling headsail for hanks and inhaulers and a new main with more roach has helped a lot there. We also gave up using the DH IRC certificate with the J3 instead of J2 as the lack of power in anything sub about 12 knots was painful.

My biggest challenge is finding the VMG angles in lighter conditions downwind and resisting my temptation to stare at electronics.

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16 hours ago, Snowden said:

IMG-0206.jpg

 

16 hours ago, Snowden said:

 

What is holding this boat up in the air?  Couple of chain hoists on the chainplates and a strap to the bow/stern? 

How does it stay level especially the first time it was picked up?  Does it move/swing about when someone touches it?

Whoever is doing the sanding/painting underneath is mighty brave!

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9 hours ago, Snowden said:

I hope so! I wonder if the J/88 experience is driving what seems like conservatism on the forestay height. Shipping stuff across the border into 'Global Britain' is increasingly painful post-Brexit so the fact that Selden make the carbon rigs in Gosport is a bit of a draw.

Probably going to delete the 2:1 halyard and go for a 1x masthead and 1x frac halyard keeping my 2:1 sprit end tackline for the FR0. Seems like a lot of string at the top of the mast for a boat this size otherwise and realistically I am not going to mouse it every time I'm not using it.

I would seriously consider 2 masthead halyards but with a deflector on the starboard halyard to make it fractional if you need to. The J111 Jitterbug has exactly that so they can fly a fractional A3. I think the idea first came from Minis

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I assume you refer to this sort of system (pic from Selden)? Have used similar things doing foredeck work on other boats, it's a neat setup. Would want to confirm that it would be OK for code zero loads but otherwise makes a lot of sense.

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3 hours ago, Ultraman said:

What is holding this boat up in the air?  Couple of chain hoists on the chainplates and a strap to the bow/stern? 

How does it stay level especially the first time it was picked up?  Does it move/swing about when someone touches it?

Whoever is doing the sanding/painting underneath is mighty brave!

Pretty much. This is JW Creations' shed in HYS, their lift is rated for two tons so we rolled the boat (2.7 tons) in on its trailer and lifted it off the keel (1.04 tons)

When I went clambering over it the other week it seemed very stable. Tim at Race Yacht Services gets his second shout out of the thread for bravery!

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11 hours ago, Snowden said:

Thanks for the pics and the memories. As you say, a great fun boat! I've had her since mid-2018 and have been experimenting and learning all that time. Last year we made some progress getting in the groove upwind, I think swapping the furling headsail for hanks and inhaulers and a new main with more roach has helped a lot there. We also gave up using the DH IRC certificate with the J3 instead of J2 as the lack of power in anything sub about 12 knots was painful.

My biggest challenge is finding the VMG angles in lighter conditions downwind and resisting my temptation to stare at electronics.

The furler was fitted by the guy who owned her before us as he was doing solo stuff. I would agree that a non-furling jib must be a great improvement upwind. We did fit inhaulers for our last season, but we were not paricularly impressed by the new 1.5 jib we bought then (a One Sails Forte sail). The J1.5/J2 is definitely a requirement in light airs

Ref the main, I don't know if you still have the One Sails one we bought (double taffeta), but it was as big as you could get, especially roach-wise and definitely made an improvement to the upwind speed and the increase in rating was only 1 point if I recollect right.

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@Snowden Any chance you know / could ask what goop they used for the keel joint? And do they work their way up to full torque on the keel bolts first day, or let the sealant set first and then go full tension?
 

My keel joint needs attention so its always interesting to hear how the pros do it! 

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On 1/13/2021 at 1:20 PM, MiddayGun said:

@Snowden Any chance you know / could ask what goop they used for the keel joint? And do they work their way up to full torque on the keel bolts first day, or let the sealant set first and then go full tension?

It is some kind of epoxy, you torque it while it is setting to record the alignment.

Here is another gratuitous photo I found of Raptor / Aztec, the 1996 Mills 30 CHS. They have a symmetric pole STL bowsprit but otherwise would love to achieve something similar:

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  • 3 weeks later...

After some time going back and forth between Norths and Selden we have a rig design we are happy with. Mast is going back 90 mm with chainplates staying in the same place (18 degrees sweep), this should help balance upwind and let me take some rake out versus the current setup without losing all helm. J is still pretty short for a 9.2m boat at 3.35. Forestay attachment point is moving up but we should get some IRC relief with a short luff jib. Current rating is 0.985, let's see where that goes.

Mocking up for the new collar with a dummy section:

 

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  • 1 month later...

Sadly not until late May - Selden are apparently as busy as they have ever been. Interestingly, they are working on the rig for the new Farr X2 in parallel and we are piggybacking on some of the ideas that have gone into that. They are making a carbon version of their rodkicker... let's see but I can always put the old Barton strut back on.

Have ordered a new 3Di AP jib from Norths though, 20.7 sqm reefing to 18 sqm with soft hanks. Slightly larger than the old #2, which was 19 sqm, but shorter luff enabled by the new longer J measurement and a small square top (apparently an IRC gain). Will pack the 2016 Nordac #3 (16 sqm) as a HW jib for Cat 3 racing. Need to think about Code Zeros, probably get the 2019 FR0 recut and ditch the Carl's Quantum MH0 or convert it into a garden ornament or something. We just moved house and the conservatory is becoming an oven in the sunshine :-D

For those that are interested, the IRC number went from 0.985 to 0.990 with +1.7 sqm HSA, no change in rig factor from the carbon mast (1.010) and no change in weight (TBC, added a battery, half a bulkhead and a floorboard so I think it's roughly flat but need to get her weighed when rigged). The tube weight saving should be (?) 1 kg / m and the mast plus boom is only 19 metres. Battery weighs about a ton or feels like it anyway. I think some of the standing rigging is down a size but not sure yet. We did take out the cathedrals.

Current projects are repainting some of the interior, tidying up electronics and figuring out deck gear layout. Bottom job (Durepox) is looking great.

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You had said up thread that the chain plates were redone with a naval architect involved- did you have access to stuff like righting moments etc?  Original plans?  Any differences from there as far as current DH & SH set up goes?  I got into this thread late, so if I missed something above, please point me to it.... anyway, interested to understand structural trade offs between things like rail meat vs no rail meat, losing control short handed, type of lift distribution, sail planforms....

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On 3/27/2021 at 5:56 AM, Snowden said:

Sadly not until late May - Selden are apparently as busy as they have ever been. Interestingly, they are working on the rig for the new Farr X2 in parallel and we are piggybacking on some of the ideas that have gone into that. They are making a carbon version of their rodkicker... let's see but I can always put the old Barton strut back on.

Have ordered a new 3Di AP jib from Norths though, 20.7 sqm reefing to 18 sqm with soft hanks. Slightly larger than the old #2, which was 19 sqm, but shorter luff enabled by the new longer J measurement and a small square top (apparently an IRC gain). Will pack the 2016 Nordac #3 (16 sqm) as a HW jib for Cat 3 racing. Need to think about Code Zeros, probably get the 2019 FR0 recut and ditch the Carl's Quantum MH0 or convert it into a garden ornament or something. We just moved house and the conservatory is becoming an oven in the sunshine :-D

For those that are interested, the IRC number went from 0.985 to 0.990 with +1.7 sqm HSA, no change in rig factor from the carbon mast (1.010) and no change in weight (TBC, added a battery, half a bulkhead and a floorboard so I think it's roughly flat but need to get her weighed when rigged). The tube weight saving should be (?) 1 kg / m and the mast plus boom is only 19 metres. Battery weighs about a ton or feels like it anyway. I think some of the standing rigging is down a size but not sure yet. We did take out the cathedrals.

Current projects are repainting some of the interior, tidying up electronics and figuring out deck gear layout. Bottom job (Durepox) is looking great.

FWIW, when we ditched our swept cathedrals, we lost a few points upwind, which was weird, with top runners on and off, 3/4’s rig though, no outs at that point above the 3/4’s hounds, 33 degree swept spreader rig.  Didn’t have quite the same leach control.  Put the cathedrals back on, with and without top  runners, got the points back.  Ballenger aluminum stick, tapered above the jib hounds. This was DH.

edit, no permanent backstay, just runners....

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26 minutes ago, Amati said:

You had said up thread that the chain plates were redone with a naval architect involved- did you have access to stuff like righting moments etc?  Original plans?

The chain plates were done by a previous owner (who himself was a naval architect) in about 2010. The boats were designed with inboard chainplates that tied into half bulkheads - all the boats (there are only 3 I think) had issues with the deck lifting. PO moved them to the gunwale and aft to 21 degree spreader sweep. By the looks of it he did a nice job, but I don't have copies of any Rm calcs if they were done at the time. 

26 minutes ago, Amati said:

Any differences from there as far as current DH & SH set up goes?

I have owned the boat for four seasons now and have played around with different jib areas and mainsail shapes. Goal was always moving the centre of effort aft to get some weather helm upwind and also lifting the bow downwind. Hence moving the mast 90 mm aft this year (18 degree sweep). I have generally increased jib size as despite her light displacement (2.7 tons) she needs the canvas to get moving in the light stuff as there's a lot of stern in the water plus a keel bulb. She's quite forgiving up the wind range as the construction is stiff enough to allow you to crank everything flat and depower. I think that will be less true with the new mast, as the old tapered alu stick was very bendy at the top, allowing you to twist off a lot of main.

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1 hour ago, Snowden said:

The chain plates were done by a previous owner (who himself was a naval architect) in about 2010. The boats were designed with inboard chainplates that tied into half bulkheads - all the boats (there are only 3 I think) had issues with the deck lifting. PO moved them to the gunwale and aft to 21 degree spreader sweep. By the looks of it he did a nice job, but I don't have copies of any Rm calcs if they were done at the time. 

I have owned the boat for four seasons now and have played around with different jib areas and mainsail shapes. Goal was always moving the centre of effort aft to get some weather helm upwind and also lifting the bow downwind. Hence moving the mast 90 mm aft this year (18 degree sweep). I have generally increased jib size as despite her light displacement (2.7 tons) she needs the canvas to get moving in the light stuff as there's a lot of stern in the water plus a keel bulb. She's quite forgiving up the wind range as the construction is stiff enough to allow you to crank everything flat and depower. I think that will be less true with the new mast, as the old tapered alu stick was very bendy at the top, allowing you to twist off a lot of main.

With that much sweep, any sail design strategies to use/get around the main bring plastered all over the shrouds downwind?  (You’re using North?). Twist?  Camber?

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24 minutes ago, Amati said:

With that much sweep, any sail design strategies to use/get around the main bring plastered all over the shrouds downwind?  (You’re using North?). Twist?  Camber?

I opted not to replace the main until next season to manage costs a bit, so am using a 2016 Nordac sail made for the immediate previous owner. It has survived well despite being flogged a lot when flaking solo but is obviously more "draft aft" than it would have been new.

That main is made with a short E and max roach so you can really twist it if you want. What did help was getting several versions of the full-length top batten (which supports the roach) made in different thicknesses. I use a lighter one for light wind days to avoid sailing around with the top inverted and to get the right leech shape without excessive tension. Messing around with the main halyard / vang after the top mark & gybes to pop the batten is just another distraction short handed.

Downwind main trim <15 knots of breeze is a source of much beard stroking on board. I like sheet in + twist whereas my co-skipper prefers it nice and baggy against the shrouds. For better or for worse we didn't have many light wind days last season to collect data on which is faster.

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On 11/20/2020 at 12:12 PM, Black Jack said:

^ I found that a shorter E and increased roach top has made a difference on my 1/2 tonner. In the windy San Francisco bay, it has proven to be quite effective. This next year - we will test the new set of sails, enhanced rig and setup against faster, newer boats. It really has become more of an endurance test of the crew rather than the boat. Not getting bashed and feeling beat up means we are more likely to finish.

It’s cool how more roach works better in higher winds.  More gradual feathering.  

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20 minutes ago, Snowden said:

I opted not to replace the main until next season to manage costs a bit, so am using a 2016 Nordac sail made for the immediate previous owner. It has survived well despite being flogged a lot when flaking solo but is obviously more "draft aft" than it would have been new.

That main is made with a short E and max roach so you can really twist it if you want. What did help was getting several versions of the full-length top batten (which supports the roach) made in different thicknesses. I use a lighter one for light wind days to avoid sailing around with the top inverted and to get the right leech shape without excessive tension. Messing around with the main halyard / vang after the top mark & gybes to pop the batten is just another distraction short handed.

Downwind main trim <15 knots of breeze is a source of much beard stroking on board. I like sheet in + twist whereas my co-skipper prefers it nice and baggy against the shrouds. For better or for worse we didn't have many light wind days last season to collect data on which is faster.

I grab the boom dinghy style and pull to weather 4-5 times in light airs.  Pop! (This is on a lightish 40er)  I have 3 different thickness battens for the top slot.  What works best for popping is using a top running back to grab the end of the top batten, & pull it to windward until it pops. The reason I asked the question is that there seem to be two extremes you can go with main twist - flat at the top with lots of twist built in, or more camber at the top, and less physical twist,  but if you have cathedrals limiting how far the top can fall off, which is better?  And if there are no swept spreaders on top, which might work better?  At least until you reef.  Has your sailmaker been any help with this conundrum?  That and changing the top batten all the time is a pain.

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18 minutes ago, Amati said:

The reason I asked the question is that there seem to be two extremes you can go with main twist - flat at the top with lots of twist built in, or more camber at the top, and less physical twist,  but if you have cathedrals limiting how far the top can fall off, which is better?  And if there are no swept spreaders on top, which might work better?  At least until you reef.  Has your sailmaker been any help with this conundrum?  That and changing the top batten all the time is a pain.

Yes, see your point, will pick this up when it is time to replace the main. Current one is very much in the former camp, i.e. flat at the top. Getting beyond my knowledge level but intuitively it seems if the top is flatter than the bottom / midsection that would preserve a constant AoA when you put twist in it.

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