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18 hours ago, sailfly said:

I think the point went over your head...

Nobody is claiming your strawman argument that all people from a certain demographic think the same. The problem is that a demographic's multitude of thoughts/viewpoints are generally bound to a certain set of frameworks, processes, and values because of similar upbringings, schooling, and environment. Of course there will be outliers, but they are far from the majority by definition. 

By hiring people from different backgrounds you get people with different experiences, as a result, the higher potential for different solutions to various problems.

A common misconception is that intentionally hiring diverse means hiring less competent in favor of diversity, but the reality is more about opening doors for people who are just as/more competent but may not have the necessary connections or exposure to the given field to be considered for the job. 

You don't even have to stratify by culture/ethnic/socioeconomic background. Just look at Airbus engineers applying their knowhow to AM's program. 

Additionally, ETNZ's bikes are a perfect example of this playing out in a smaller, more constrained environment. 

Industry translation is responsible for 90%(estimation) of "innovation", that is, taking different, already existing processes, technology, and thinking, that is- a different perspective and applying it to a given field. Why can't more culturally diverse problem solvers be applied in the same manner?

There are already examples in boating with the invention of Proas, Catamarans, and Trimarans by Polynesians. They had a different needed to solve a problem and used their unique knowledge, one might say culture, and their environment to come up with a solution.  

Another example can be seen in website/UI/UX design across East/West. In the West, the typical website is designed with reading/scrolling top to bottom and left to right, letter by letter, word by word. East Asian website by comparison are undecipherable, with information popping out from what seems to be every random corner of the screen, but this is due to how characters can be read in every direction and at a much faster rate. Some of the best work I have seen was when the designer successfully merged the best of each way of conceptualizing information. Imagine this level of thinking being applied to other solutions or ideas. 

Overall, I find this a rather shallow view of a complex problem...

Sure, in a closed system. This is the real world and connections, biased perceptions,  and unequal opportunities pervert the system. 

I agree most of this. What I don't agree with is, upon seeing a bunch of white guys, it is immediately claimed they are not diverse. Pretty much what Ed did in his OP. But it would appear this is not an acceptable viewpoint to you. Fine, I certainly won't lose any sleep over it.

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2 hours ago, Gissie said:

I agree most of this. What I don't agree with is, upon seeing a bunch of white guys, it is immediately claimed they are not diverse. Pretty much what Ed did in his OP. But it would appear this is not an acceptable viewpoint to you. Fine, I certainly won't lose any sleep over it.

When did you state anything similar to "What I don't agree with is, upon seeing a bunch of white guys, it is immediately claimed they are not diverse".  I am arguing that increased diversity increases viewpoints leading to better solutions. Please stop using strawman arguments to prove your point.

Also I don't agree with the Editors weak attempt at diversity to generate traffic and advertiser appeal. The mock sympathy and indignation of such low effort kneejerk activism just serves to desensitize people from actual issues and misrepresents true activism to the skeptics like yourself who are then discouraged or even incensed against the concept. At least the dumb FP brought some interesting discussion.

11 hours ago, Kate short for Bob said:

Feel free to pontificate wokeness but to credit the invention of Catamarans and Trimarans to Polynesia does a disservice to other cultures that arrived at the same solution for a similar problem.  

They may have been one of the first (the Egyptians and Chinese may disagree) to use multihulls but other cultures and societies "invented" them too and in a time where there was no internet to transfer "knowledge".

Ok maybe it was not the best example, my knowledge of boating and boating history is probably below average is below average compared to most on this forum. As with any solution to a problem there will be some convergent development and also conflation of origin and shitty historians (myself in this case). My point that a more diverse pool of people results in better solutions still stands, the development of multihulls did not originate from a European demographic of the time and is the status quo in todays sailing industry. Also I will admit the phrasing of the sentence your quoted was maybe a bit pretentious. 

19 hours ago, Rennmaus said:

So eloquently put, especially the bold part. Thank you so much.

Thank you. There is so much interesting discourse and observations on this forum but unfortunately there is so much spam to sift through that it is generally not worth the time :/. To be considered notable is reassuring :)

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An interesting movie that explores the concept of diverse backgrounds leading to better solutions further is Arrival (very good movie, would highly recommend) where even time is contextualized differently because of large differences in language and culture.

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There is business research which has found; in teams if there is an expert on the subject the team does worse than if there is not.

Also if there are more women than men that team wins AND an all women team wins over all  !!!!

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1 hour ago, sailfly said:

When did you state anything similar to "What I don't agree with is, upon seeing a bunch of white guys, it is immediately claimed they are not diverse".  I am arguing that increased diversity increases viewpoints leading to better solutions. Please stop using strawman arguments to prove your point.

Also I don't agree with the Editors weak attempt at diversity to generate traffic and advertiser appeal. The mock sympathy and indignation of such low effort kneejerk activism just serves to desensitize people from actual issues and misrepresents true activism to the skeptics like yourself who are then discouraged or even incensed against the concept. At least the dumb FP brought some interesting discussion.

Ok maybe it was not the best example, my knowledge of boating and boating history is probably below average is below average compared to most on this forum. As with any solution to a problem there will be some convergent development and also conflation of origin and shitty historians (myself in this case). My point that a more diverse pool of people results in better solutions still stands, the development of multihulls did not originate from a European demographic of the time and is the status quo in todays sailing industry. Also I will admit the phrasing of the sentence your quoted was maybe a bit pretentious. 

Thank you. There is so much interesting discourse and observations on this forum but unfortunately there is so much spam to sift through that it is generally not worth the time :/. To be considered notable is reassuring :)

I guess you just see and read what you want to, anything different from your dogma is just a strawman argument. Easy out. My first post was a reply to a claim that a bunch of white guys needs to be diverse. My argument is that they may be diverse. Not as diverse as including a women, a Moroccan, a handicapped or a deaf mute, but they can still be diverse.

So I will leave you to your certainty of what is right.

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Missing in action  was ETNZ MEDIA DEPARTMENT before this photo was released.  It’s their job to scrub and review what goes out the door.   If ETNZ sells us their “cutting edge, stat of the art, the best of the best”, then this should be top to bottom.

Regardless of the editor’s fact or fiction, I doubt this photo represent the race and or sex image ETNZ or  their GLOBAL CORPORATE SPONSORS want to portray. 

NZ  maybe a corner of the earth, but it’s not a vacuum.  Every corner, every country has race and sexism issues, including NZ.  Photos like this don’t help.

Reminder: S.A. is a shit stirring blog, not a news agency.  You get what you pay for.

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On 11/20/2020 at 8:21 PM, boatcat65 said:

Bottom line- only racists see skin color. 

But the truth remains- if you look at life through a lens that sees skin color first, like it or not, you are racist. 

You're racist if you think some minority needs your "help" in pointing out the differences, and also racist in the sense that you don't think they can fend for themselves without your help.

Three sophist statements that superficially sound right, but they are actually bullshit.

-Everyone sees skin color

-If you look at life through a lens that sees skin color first, like it or not, you are a human being 

- Minorities need "our" help because they have been held down in a thousand ways for centuries 

Seek a middle ground where you recognize the struggle of race, but in proportion to the struggle of life. Try to improve things. Find balance.

 

 

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On 11/20/2020 at 5:46 PM, Editor said:

team-white-knights1-1024x493.jpg

We're likely to see nearly the same thing with the other three (or is it two?) America's Cup teams, but for christ's sake, it is not possible to have less people of color on this massive team. And that is because there are none. And would you like to attempt to count how many women there are? No need, we did it for you: The answer is one. As in token. Or maybe there are more, but were told not to worry their pretty little heads over a silly photo op...

Really, this is the message you wish to send? If you aren't white and don't have a penis, then fuck off? There was no one of equal talent otherwise? It is total bullshit, insulting to millions (well it would be millions if anybody really gave a fuck about the AC, which they don't), is a poor look, and sends exactly the wrong message.

Looks pretty racist and misogynist to us. Apparently they didn't get the message about diversity.

I have always enjoyed SA and often sided with the Editor when controversy had come up.....

On this occasion.... the Editor is an absolute tosser

 

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25 minutes ago, shrimp said:

Missing in action  was ETNZ MEDIA DEPARTMENT before this photo was released.  It’s their job to scrub and review what goes out the door.   If ETNZ sells us their “cutting edge, stat of the art, the best of the best”, then this should be top to bottom.

Regardless of the editor’s fact or fiction, I doubt this photo represent the race and or sex image ETNZ or  their GLOBAL CORPORATE SPONSORS want to portray. 

NZ  maybe a corner of the earth, but it’s not a vacuum.  Every corner, every country has race and sexism issues, including NZ.  Photos like this don’t help.

Reminder: S.A. is a shit stirring blog, not a news agency.  You get what you pay for.

Oh I don't know about that... again this is just the boat building team, not the whole team, and the only negative take has come from one person...

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On 11/21/2020 at 5:05 AM, stealingisacrime said:

When will the liberal tribalists stop looking at people as being defined by their physical characteristics?  

Why is it that anyone with a consideration for diversity is labelled a liberal tribalist? What the fuck is a "liberal" anyway?

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1 hour ago, boatcat65 said:

- the Kool-Aid drinking masses and their spoon fed delusions. Yup- you're a racist. 

Your little DARVO tricks won't work here, and the cliche is just boring. 

-Sure, we all see the skin color. 

Thanks for making my point, word for word. 

-But some of us acknowledge it in the same way we acknowledge long verses short hair or whether or not make-up is being worn. 

Yea sure big man.  I bet when you are within 20 feet of a large, young, black male your balls retract up to your neck. 

-Others immediately shuffle the observed individual off to to some niche where they are immediately bound up with lowered expectations, fear, assumptions about intelligence, etc......none of which are likely true. 

Yes, that's the sine qua non of extreme racism.  It's also more sophist bullshit because almost nobody is actually an extreme racist.  Structural racism is subtle and pervasive.   Left to our own devices, we will always seek those with the most propinquity.  Fact of human life.  

-Why should some street criminal be conflated with say Dr. Ben Carson just because their skin color matches?  Doing so makes you a racist. 

Yea, why should they?   Doing that is racist?  No shit sherlock. 

-Both Dr. Carson and the drug dealer on the city corner grew up poor with a variety of challenges.  That one goes on to become a world famous surgeon and the other continues to sell drugs doesn't have a damm thing to do with their skin color. 

Ahhh now I see.  The horrible schools, the lack of stable families, the high violent crimes, the overpolicing, and the nearly entirely segregated existence of many minorities do not have a damn thing to do with skin color.   Ben Carson beats long odds and you waive away the odds in the next breath.   

-In the U.S. Blacks have achieved  every position and level of success possible from the president on down.  Multiple Black $billionaires, lawyers, doctors, senators, judges, athletes, social influencers, etc. 

You are a sophist machine my friend.  Black net worth is  /10th that of whites per capita.  Let me know when that's down to a fifth so I can conclude there is not a structural problem.  https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining-the-black-white-wealth-gap/ 

-But some folks keep thinking they can look better to others and perhaps themselves by virtue signaling and yelling about systematic racism when the evidence for such passed on long ago. 

Lawdy did it pass in 1865?  1965?  2008?  2016?  Ever?  No, it will never pass on its own.  People, including minorities, will enact structural racism forever.  All we can do is build institutions to mitigate human nature as much as practical.  We have not done nearly well enough.   Denial of this obvious fact is exactly pure sophistry- that's the right word for this line of thinking.  

-Want to end big world racism as opposed to individual grudges/hate? 
 
Sure I do, but one sentence up you said there no such thing, so what's to worry about? 

-Stop talking about color and start talking about individual responsibility, delayed gratification, power, and persistence.   Removing the bigotry of low expectations and the scapegoat of white privilege will bring about some real change.

Sure it will.  You know what brings real change?  Cash money.  Fund urban schools extravagantly.  Pay poor single moms big money when their kids do well in school.  Double the funding for cops and stop them from making excessive misdemeanor busts.  Give big tax credits to companies training minorities.  And stop making any subsidy or any of this based on race alone-  to the maximum extent possible, use family income as a measure of diversity, not arbitrary skin-tone.   Poor rural whites suffer structural discrimination too, as you may have heard. 

You had enough ?  

 
 

 

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29 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

that looks like the number of blacks illegally killed by white policeman, to me.

This is a complex and difficult topic... but here are worthy considerations... if for no other reason than you determine them as bunk :-)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

I may regret posting this... suffice to say I think racism is real. and a real problem...

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My Prescription to all of you is one Pitcher of Margaritas followed by unlimited ice cold Corona Beers. Your Prescription also includes to watch or re-watch this movie (Trading Places) again. I bet most of you cannot deny that you enjoyed a big laugh out of Aykroyd eating the salmon out of his Santa Clause suite on the City Bus !  Eddie Murphy was hilarious and was fresh out of SNL, did you ever see Mr. Robinson's Neighborhood?  Can we please get over the politics and learn to laugh again....Get over it Mortimer!  Oh Yeah, I almost forgot, the actress JLC had no problem playing a hooker and dressing the part!  Back to Yachting please......

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Seems to me the real racists are the ones who look at a picture and start counting races. We sure are a long way from MLKs "colorblind society". 

Liberals often make things worse (in Portland, Chicago, Milwaukee and Detroit to name a few) and then yell about racism when the system breaks down. (maybe it was their racism that helped it collapse in the first place)

This doesn't surprise me coming from the Ed. Sometimes throwing a rhetorical bomb helps your clicks I guess....

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Can we all please just ignore this thread, as has been pointed out it's just a piss poor article that's not even factually correct probably just aimed at getting the hit count up.... Fake news. 

Ed, please come up with something more worthy of comment in the future.

Edited by Woolfy
Spelling correction
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/20/2020 at 2:16 PM, Ex-yachtie said:

That’s a fair point, but the lack of gender and racial mix does suggest a bias toward people with a similar cultural background.

Or it reflects the region of the world:
As at the 2018 
census, the majority of New Zealand's population is of European descent (70 percent), with the indigenous Māori being the largest minority (16.5 percent), followed by Asians (15.3 percent), and non-Māori Pacific Islanders (9.0 percent).

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54 minutes ago, stealingisacrime said:

Or it reflects the region of the world:
As at the 2018 
census, the majority of New Zealand's population is of European descent (70 percent), with the indigenous Māori being the largest minority (16.5 percent), followed by Asians (15.3 percent), and non-Māori Pacific Islanders (9.0 percent).

You fucking idiot.

Screenshot 2020-12-11 063801.jpg

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18 minutes ago, kenergy said:

In your occupation is 50.84% of the workforce female? 

No, but I wouldn’t mind betting that my place of work is. We work bloody hard to make it as diverse as possible meaning that white middle aged men are under represented in comparison with my profession. 
 

Diversity isn’t a selection policy, it’s a strategy for introducing ideas that enable you to achieve better outcomes.
 

The idea that people do tasks and that the culmination of those tasks, done well, leads to a successful outcome is about as old as the industrial revolution, reinforced by the education system that most of us were subject to which, by the way, was invented at about the same time. Organisations that can understand their outcomes as the result of people working together can achieve much more. 

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1 hour ago, Ex-yachtie said:

Diversity isn’t a selection policy, it’s a strategy for introducing ideas that enable you to achieve better outcomes

"Better" according to whom? 

"Diversity" is just another excuse for the very well paid gender policy business.

In Spain the majority of jobs in Justice, Education, and Health (judges, teachers and doctors), which undoubtedly are the basic structures of modern society are occupied by females and nobody calls for gender equality. Yet we have politicians spending millions (on NGO's and companies owned by them or their friends/familiys/partisans to "promote" women  in places where they apparently don't want to be. Like studying engineering for example.

Our Western society (globally) is turning deeply and worryingly stupid. 

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21 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

Hmm, I have quite a few Spanish colleagues who are female and engineers. Maybe the companies in Spain do something wrong.

Yes but in Spain to choose the career you want you need good grades, women have better grades on average than men and yet they choose other careers instead. Of course there are women in engineering but less than men, because THEY want to do something else.

Should companies force them?

Freedom and gender equality are enemies, apparently. 

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5 minutes ago, Rennmaus said:

My colleagues are Spanish, but they left Spain. They are good at their jobs, at least as good as their male colleagues. Spamish companies were stupid not to hire them. 

The job market is very complicated here, unemployment for under 35yo is around 30%. Competent people very often leave, I was an expat myself. Twice.

Of course women are as good as men on their jobs, but lets be honest, going to the jungle in México to build electrical substations or to Saudi Arabia to build refineries  like I did is pretty incompatible with breeding a child. That's reality and in engineering, like in the military, if you don't do the field work when you are young you don't get to be in command when you are older... (there are exceptions, but that's the rule).

 

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2 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

No, but I wouldn’t mind betting that my place of work is. We work bloody hard to make it as diverse as possible meaning that white middle aged men are under represented in comparison with my profession. 
 

Diversity isn’t a selection policy, it’s a strategy for introducing ideas that enable you to achieve better outcomes.
 

The idea that people do tasks and that the culmination of those tasks, done well, leads to a successful outcome is about as old as the industrial revolution, reinforced by the education system that most of us were subject to which, by the way, was invented at about the same time. Organisations that can understand their outcomes as the result of people working together can achieve much more. 

My workplace is probably 70%+ female, my occupation probably 5%. Its hard to hire workers that dont exist. 

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10 hours ago, chuso007 said:

"Better" according to whom? 

"Diversity" is just another excuse for the very well paid gender policy business.

In Spain the majority of jobs in Justice, Education, and Health (judges, teachers and doctors), which undoubtedly are the basic structures of modern society are occupied by females and nobody calls for gender equality. Yet we have politicians spending millions (on NGO's and companies owned by them or their friends/familiys/partisans to "promote" women  in places where they apparently don't want to be. Like studying engineering for example.

Our Western society (globally) is turning deeply and worryingly stupid. 

You’ll excuse me if I ignore the opinions of someone who has jiggling tits as an avatar.

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3 hours ago, Ex-yachtie said:

You’ll excuse me if I ignore the opinions of someone who has jiggling tits as an avatar.

Of course.

Do you find it offensive?

 

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1 hour ago, chuso007 said:

Of course.

Do you find it offensive?

 

I don’t.  When I first got on here 13 or so years ago one of the first to great me, or totally destroy my opinion, was you and your bouncing boobies.  They are an institution and one of the few links left to a very fun and spirited time on here back during AC32. 

WetHog  :ph34r:

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3 hours ago, WetHog said:

When I first got on here 13 or so years ago one of the first to great me, or totally destroy my opinion, was you and your bouncing boobies.

That's the spirit!!!

You're one of the good ones Wethog.

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On 12/10/2020 at 12:38 PM, Ex-yachtie said:

You fucking idiot.

Screenshot 2020-12-11 063801.jpg


This was about race not sex.  Some jobs are more align with men than woman and the percentages of people in those occupations reflect that.   Did you know that 0.00% of men in New Zealand are bikini models - true story.   

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On 12/10/2020 at 11:02 AM, Ex-yachtie said:

No, but I wouldn’t mind betting that my place of work is. We work bloody hard to make it as diverse as possible meaning that white middle aged men are under represented in comparison with my profession. 
 

Diversity isn’t a selection policy, it’s a strategy for introducing ideas that enable you to achieve better outcomes.
 

The idea that people do tasks and that the culmination of those tasks, done well, leads to a successful outcome is about as old as the industrial revolution, reinforced by the education system that most of us were subject to which, by the way, was invented at about the same time. Organisations that can understand their outcomes as the result of people working together can achieve much more. 

Organizations* 

Tedious and predictable as always.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/20/2020 at 6:54 PM, Forourselves said:

As an ETNZ "Fanboy" as many like to call Me, this is actually one area of the team that I do somewhat think, could be improved.

However, when a team from a tiny nation at the bottom of the world competes against some of the largest and well resourced nations in the world, WINNING must take priority. Hiring the BEST people is THE critical factor in winning a competition like the AC.

I identify as NZ Maori, I whakapapa back to Te Arawa, with Waitaha my hapu. I would like to see more "Brown skin" in the AC, but I also understand, putting and keeping NZ on the world stage requires winning.

As long as we have the BEST people. Thats ALL that matters. White skin, brown skin, Men, Women, LGBTQI, it does not matter.

To quote George Costanza "I got it all".

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On 11/20/2020 at 7:13 PM, Ex-yachtie said:

The benefit of diversity comes from building your team with people that bring different view points, thought processes and values to the whole.  Picking the “best people” misses the point. 

If you have white men choosing the “best people” without conscious bias toward diversity, you’ll end up with a team of white men who all think and work in similar ways - tunnel vision.

If any team should be choosing diversity, it should be ETNZ.  They’re innovative and progressive.

Go for diversity if it makes the boat faster. I hope INEOS has listened to your advice.

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On 12/12/2020 at 8:42 AM, stealingisacrime said:


This was about race not sex.  Some jobs are more align with men than woman and the percentages of people in those occupations reflect that.   Did you know that 0.00% of men in New Zealand are bikini models - true story.   

I could have been but i was never picked........... sexist fuckers

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From the guy that says En Zee, instead of En Zed, comes this drivel. Best to ignore it. The US and Canada, are about 150 years behind the times when compared to NZ. I have lived in England, NZ, US and Canada. That is the vibe I get. Many sports are under represented by race. Who cares. Lettuce not get our tits in the wringer.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/21/2020 at 5:13 AM, Ex-yachtie said:

The benefit of diversity comes from building your team with people that bring different view points, thought processes and values to the whole.  Picking the “best people” misses the point. 

If you have white men choosing the “best people” without conscious bias toward diversity, you’ll end up with a team of white men who all think and work in similar ways - tunnel vision.

Yes, but that's not solely the preserve of "white men", nor does picking a culturally diverse team ensure diversity of thought in regard to engineering solutions. Some of the most "out of the box" thinkers I've encountered are "white men", and some of the most doggedly conservative or intolerant are not. I've also worked in teams where the "white guy" was the odd one out.

A good team has diversity of thought and members with sufficient interpersonal skills to work together. I've managed people with brilliant technical skills but whose personalities made them extremely difficult to work with. Separating diverse opinions from racism etc. ("you're only saying that because I'm <insert demographic here>") can be difficult in a diverse team. That tends to push teams to a monoculture, it's just easier (if less performant).

So yes, diversity takes conscious effort to achieve because the default will nearly always be a monoculture.

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2 hours ago, RobG said:

Yes, but that's not solely the preserve of "white men", nor does picking a culturally diverse team ensure diversity of thought in regard to engineering solutions. Some of the most "out of the box" thinkers I've encountered are "white men", and some of the most doggedly conservative or intolerant are not. I've also worked in teams where the "white guy" was the odd one out.

A good team has diversity of thought and members with sufficient interpersonal skills to work together. I've managed people with brilliant technical skills but whose personalities made them extremely difficult to work with. Separating diverse opinions from racism etc. ("you're only saying that because I'm <insert demographic here>") can be difficult in a diverse team. That tends to push teams to a monoculture, it's just easier (if less performant).

So yes, diversity takes conscious effort to achieve because the default will nearly always be a monoculture.

The PC brigade who promote tolerance mean to anyone who is not a white man.

Denigrating them is not only acceptable but to be lauded.

Them of course you get into the totem pole of victimhood where being a woman is better than being a man, unless it's a trans man.

And if you're a muslim trans man, well buddy that's the victimhood motherlode. 

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The only minority you need to defend is the individual.
If everyone can do what they want without fear or favour then happy days. Our sailing club has plenty of female owners skippers and crew, my football club has a female president and a women’s team. One of my favourite beers comes from a brewery owned by women. 
If you want to bloody mindedley pursue equal representation in every career, sport or pastime you will rapidly come to the reality that the cure is way worse than the symptoms. 

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