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Strange Corsair question


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Found an ad for a home build C25 (composite, not wood) rigged with a C28 mast and sail.  I have always been under the impression that the center of effort of the sails should be directly above the center of lateral resistance for the hull(s) for a well balanced boat so I have to wonder about this.  Not to mention I thought a C25 was designed to not have a boom.  Also have to wonder about raising and lowering the mast and how it is, or should be, attached.

This stuff is well above my pay grade so any help welcome.  

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If it is a 25 and home built, it isn't a Corsair.  So, likely a F25A or F25C (the C would be for carbon hulls).  As Team VMG says, rig size is similar and the mast placement related to the daggerboard is what relates to boat balance--in both the F25s and C28s, the mast is located above the daggerboard (I think all Ian's designs as well as Corsairs do that since it simplifies transmitting the mast loads to the hulls (daggerboard trunk being the support member).  There's some room using mast rake to change the balance from lee to weather helm, so you needn't worry about the source of the mast.  The F25c could either be built  boomless or with boom--traveler location changed from one to the other.  Since this boat has been sailing in this configuration, I suspect the owner has it sorted out.   

The only issues I would be concerned with are the age of the boat, whether or not the current owner is also the builder, and (something not really easily inspected), how scrupulously the builder followed Ian's plans.  As you know with your Seawind, boats take maintenance, production errors and lack of maintenance can ruin your attitude about a boat.  

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To answer some of the questions it is a 2008 Farrier F-25A according to the ad.  I have spent the last five minutes trying to load the page the ad is on and got one 503 error.  The boat is listed at Windcraft and the main page does load.  Thanks for the information, I may drive down to look at the boat after the Thanksgiving rush, but I hate driving in Florida with all the snowbirds here.  Just talked to Don at Windcraft and it is Duracore.

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Looks like a cool boat!

We have an F-82R which is essentially an F-25C built with foam and glass instead of balsa and carbon, and is essentially a successor of the F-25A.

There's a good page on the Farrier website that describes the differences between the models and their evolution.

The F-82R is the "racing" version and the F-82R is the "cruising" version, with the main difference being the height of the mast - no changes are required to the boat itself to accommodate the taller mast, so I personally wouldn't have any concerns about this F-25A having a taller C28 mast - in fact I would consider it an excellent upgrade!

Good luck!

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4 hours ago, Tomfl said:

 I have spent the last five minutes trying to load the page the ad is on and got one 503 error.  The boat is listed at Windcraft and the main page does load.  Thanks for the information, I may drive down to look at the boat after the Thanksgiving rush, but I hate driving in Florida with all the snowbirds here.  Just talked to Don at Windcraft and it is Duracore.

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/83736

Been for sale for about a year.

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27 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

W&W how do you get $68 from $35 USA as a straight exchange? No shipping, duty etc. 

Ah sorry I quickly used the euro rate. 
so on current usd rate less bank cut it works out at $50aud. Add on a 40 footer from there to here at about 15k then duties at about $4k then whatever it would cost to get someone to pull the boat apart and load it in the container and arrange the export - maybe $5k. No change out of aud$74k for a sight unseen old boat. 

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I think we can agree that it is not the purchase price but the sell in the future, the Farrier/Corsairs hold their value well in Australia so cost of ownership can be low. If I could leave one rigged at the harbour it would be a no brainer. 

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1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

I think we can agree that it is not the purchase price but the sell in the future, the Farrier/Corsairs hold their value well in Australia so cost of ownership can be low. If I could leave one rigged at the harbour it would be a no brainer. 

Agree 100%. Mine is rigged on the hardstand at the marina. Launch, have coffee and chips all in half an hour. 

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 11/26/2020 at 6:57 PM, Crazy Horse said:

If I could leave one rigged at the harbour it would be a no brainer. 

Can't you just remove the 4 ama bolts and fold up? I thought all of these models allowed you to leave the mast up at all times.

Does anyone know the reason why this boat is being sold? The balsa core doesn't inspire confidence but what do I know.

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23 hours ago, Floating Duck said:

Can't you just remove the 4 ama bolts and fold up? I thought all of these models allowed you to leave the mast up at all times.

Does anyone know the reason why this boat is being sold? The balsa core doesn't inspire confidence but what do I know.

Most but not all allow the stays to remain in place with no action on the users part when the amas are folded from what I remember; it was sorta later development.  Ian had this warning

 

Highfield Levers

1. There may be a danger of fatigue with long term reliance on highfield levers alone (where fitted, typically on the rotating mast boats) to support mast while folded for an extended period. If any bending loads are generated on the lever, and the boat can move around slightly, then the lever could eventually be damaged from the mast swaying sideways. This could put alternating bending loads on the lever, to where it could break unexpectedly sometime in the future. Not likely, but it could happen, particularly if any part of the lever or swage is being bent around the deck to hull join flange. If this is the case (can vary from boat to boat), then the mast raising wires should be added to take the load. Ian Farrier

untitled (corsairmarine.com)

 

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F242 did not need hifield levers.  Mast was stable enough folded and unfolded.  However, almost all F242s had to do a design change in the mast raising/rotating piece that inserted into the bottom of the mast.  Original was aluminum and broke--probably from the slight movement allowed by slack shrouds while folded.  Some had stainless "donkey dicks" as replacement, some did a different mod developed by Ballenger Spars.  In any event, it was one of the few weaknesses of the design (as well as the mast itself which was not terrifically aerodynamic).  Dunno whether or not F25As use hifield levers or whether shrouds are tightened/loosened with cascades of lashing.  In any event, you can always stabilize the mast using halyards while folded.  Most folks do even if they keep it mast up on the trailer.  

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Some F/C boats require you to lengthen the shrouds to fold and some don't.

Our F-82R requires the shrouds to be lengthened by about 8" to fold the boat. We use a synthetic version of the Highfield lever as show below in the extended position.

 IMG_2906.thumb.jpeg.88f8d2375acef0ae5352aba716bbd71b.jpeg

To tighten you simply pull the snap shackle down and attach to a padeye on the float. 

It requires you to "banjo" the strands slightly to overcome friction, but means you never have to disconnect the shrouds, so the mast can't fall over.

The light-coloured spectra to the snap shackle is to fine-tune rig tension in the sailing position.

As Thom noted the F24 MK II and some other models, including the F22 and Dash (I think) will fold without adjusting the shrouds.

Interestingly the Corsair 880 does have Highfield levers, so  you can't go by the age of the boat!

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57 minutes ago, gspot said:

Some F/C boats require you to lengthen the shrouds to fold and some don't.

Our F-82R requires the shrouds to be lengthened by about 8" to fold the boat. We use a synthetic version of the Highfield lever as show below in the extended position.

 IMG_2906.thumb.jpeg.88f8d2375acef0ae5352aba716bbd71b.jpeg

To tighten you simply pull the snap shackle down and attach to a padeye on the float. 

It requires you to "banjo" the strands slightly to overcome friction, but means you never have to disconnect the shrouds, so the mast can't fall over.

The light-coloured spectra to the snap shackle is to fine-tune rig tension in the sailing position.

As Thom noted the F24 MK II and some other models, including the F22 and Dash (I think) will fold without adjusting the shrouds.

Interestingly the Corsair 880 does have Highfield levers, so  you can't go by the age of the boat!

So the snap shackle is holding the mast up while sailing?  

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11 hours ago, MultiThom said:

So the snap shackle is holding the mast up while sailing?  


The thick light spectra at the top is the normal Collifo shroud, and the dark spectra is the normal Colligo tensioner. The thin light spectra and the snap shackle are the “new” part.

Pulling the snap shackle down to the float tightens the multi-part purchase that is the “normal” Colligo-style tensioner (i.e. dark spectra).

In the “normal” fixed setup (without the snap shackle) it would just be lashed back onto itself providing a fixed length shroud.

This setup gives the shroud two lengths instead of one.

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24 minutes ago, gspot said:


The thick light spectra at the top is the normal Collifo shroud, and the dark spectra is the normal Colligo tensioner. The thin light spectra and the snap shackle are the “new” part.

Pulling the snap shackle down to the float tightens the multi-part purchase that is the “normal” Colligo-style tensioner (i.e. dark spectra).

In the “normal” fixed setup (without the snap shackle) it would just be lashed back onto itself providing a fixed length shroud.

This setup gives the shroud two lengths instead of one.

I would consider using a soft shackle since I don't trust snap shackles that are allowed to loosen, then tighten repeatedly (lee shrouds are never tight).  I did use one on my forestay with impunity, but I've had too many snap shackles come apart unexpectedly--granted, the mast can only slip 8" or so.  I've considered doing something similar on the side I unfold first since I don't tension that side (lee side usually) and only grunt on the windward side.  But I haven't since I want symmetry.  I'm about to make new shrouds this winter, so I'm rethinking my setup.  

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1 hour ago, MultiThom said:

I would consider using a soft shackle since I don't trust snap shackles that are allowed to loosen, then tighten repeatedly (lee shrouds are never tight).  I did use one on my forestay with impunity, but I've had too many snap shackles come apart unexpectedly--granted, the mast can only slip 8" or so.  I've considered doing something similar on the side I unfold first since I don't tension that side (lee side usually) and only grunt on the windward side.  But I haven't since I want symmetry.  I'm about to make new shrouds this winter, so I'm rethinking my setup.  

You could tape the snap shacke, or use any fastener that is easy to connect and disconnect, as long as the attachment point is big enough to act as a stopper against the Colligo block, to ensure that the entire shroud only slackens by the requisite amount. 

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19 hours ago, gspot said:

Some F/C boats require you to lengthen the shrouds to fold and some don't.

Our F-82R requires the shrouds to be lengthened by about 8" to fold the boat. We use a synthetic version of the Highfield lever as show below in the extended position.

 IMG_2906.thumb.jpeg.88f8d2375acef0ae5352aba716bbd71b.jpeg

To tighten you simply pull the snap shackle down and attach to a padeye on the float. 

It requires you to "banjo" the strands slightly to overcome friction, but means you never have to disconnect the shrouds, so the mast can't fall over.

The light-coloured spectra to the snap shackle is to fine-tune rig tension in the sailing position.

As Thom noted the F24 MK II and some other models, including the F22 and Dash (I think) will fold without adjusting the shrouds.

Interestingly the Corsair 880 does have Highfield levers, so  you can't go by the age of the boat!

If I understand this, it looks like a 6:1 with a 36:1 fine tune.   And in order to get 8" slack you have to allow 48" of line to be dropped through in order to attach the shackle.  That is a pretty long lashing--I'm guessing about 30 feet.  It is pretty clever.  

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59 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

If I understand this, it looks like a 6:1 with a 36:1 fine tune.   And in order to get 8" slack you have to allow 48" of line to be dropped through in order to attach the shackle.  That is a pretty long lashing--I'm guessing about 30 feet.  It is pretty clever.  

The plan built F22 requires the rig to be eased to fold. Not sure about the factory boat but there aren’t too many of those around. Plywood had one so he would know. 
the procedure with Collego rigging is to tension the rig with a halyard attached near the end of the rear beam and loosen the lashing just enough only on one side and re-lash. Only takes one or two minutes. 

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It is a good thing the title of this thread is about strange since it has drifted quite a way.  I chose to not use colligo terminations and instead used ronstan shocks since my boat is very light (900 pounds) and I'm weaker than I used to be so I can cascade 8:1 with 1/8" lashings.  However, there is a lot of lashing line to tie off since 8" of slack translates to over 5 feet of line to deal with once it gets tight.   Takes much longer than one or two minutes.  

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2 hours ago, MultiThom said:

If I understand this, it looks like a 6:1 with a 36:1 fine tune.   And in order to get 8" slack you have to allow 48" of line to be dropped through in order to attach the shackle.  That is a pretty long lashing--I'm guessing about 30 feet.  It is pretty clever.  

Our coarse lashing is a bit shorter than that, so we actually attach the snap shackle to a padeye adjacent to the aft float, which gives us enough distance to take up the 8" @ 6:1. 

That also puts the fine tensioner at around 60 degrees to the shroud so you actually get better than 36:1 in fine tuning. 

Even though we're pulling through close to 5' of line it takes less than 30 seconds per side. 

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That’s interesting. I wouldn’t think there’s much weight difference between the Colligo lashing setup and an 8:1 cascade with decent size shocks. Maybe I’m not understanding your setup and also I only need to lengthen by about 60mm. No strength required also as the halyard on a winch does the work. Got a photo of the setup?

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27 minutes ago, WetnWild said:

That’s interesting. I wouldn’t think there’s much weight difference between the Colligo lashing setup and an 8:1 cascade with decent size shocks. Maybe I’m not understanding your setup and also I only need to lengthen by about 60mm. No strength required also as the halyard on a winch does the work. Got a photo of the setup?

There's probably very little weight difference.  The difference is the colligo system for my size boat is 6:1 (3 holes per termination; just like for gspots).  While I can tension with that, more mechanical advantage is better for my age/fitness.  The shroud cascade is used to fold the boat to bring the floats close enough to the main hull so it fits on the trailer, otherwise I have to wade out at the launch ramp and lift/push onto the bunk.  

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4 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

There's probably very little weight difference.  The difference is the colligo system for my size boat is 6:1 (3 holes per termination; just like for gspots).  While I can tension with that, more mechanical advantage is better for my age/fitness.  The shroud cascade is used to fold the boat to bring the floats close enough to the main hull so it fits on the trailer, otherwise I have to wade out at the launch ramp and lift/push onto the bunk.  

Ah get it now. You don’t have the Farrier folding system. It is very user friendly. 

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15 hours ago, MultiThom said:

The difference is the colligo system for my size boat is 6:1 (3 holes per termination; just like for gspots).  While I can tension with that, more mechanical advantage is better for my age/fitness.  The shroud cascade is used to fold the boat to bring the floats close enough to the main hull so it fits on the trailer, otherwise I have to wade out at the launch ramp and lift/push onto the bunk.  

I double checked and the Colligo system coarse adjustment for my boat is actually 8:1 (four holes on each block). Would an 8:1 Colligo system (i.e. for another boat) fit on your boat?

14 hours ago, WetnWild said:

Ah get it now. You don’t have the Farrier folding system. It is very user friendly. 

Yes the Farrier system folds and unfolds without any shroud tension, so I'm really just adding or pulling out slack, which is quick and easy.

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3 hours ago, gspot said:

I double checked and the Colligo system coarse adjustment for my boat is actually 8:1 (four holes on each block). Would an 8:1 Colligo system (i.e. for another boat) fit on your boat?

Probably, but it would look pretty massive on my 3/16" shroud with 1/8" lashings.   Esthetics count for some choices, for me anyway.  True, the loops of line I use for the ronstan shocks are not the prettiest things.  

To be clear on my folding system, I don't need any shroud tension to fold or unfold, it is only needed since I'm single handing and need to squeeze the amas in another inch or two so the boat rides on the trailer with bunks supporting the amas.  It is a tight tolerance and I dislike wading into the cold water to push the ama on the bunk if it wandered too far out.  

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