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That is the weirdest fetish I have ever heard of... But please... That is a Koster K 25, Sweden  

And of course, the Atlalanta 26 

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45 minutes ago, SloopJohnB said:

Young Nick a SS One tonner.

 

1146648259_YN2.JPG.3ea78208678032f7ea5445f51445efc2.JPG

1042877166_YN1.JPG.3b2f36a20e8ea10a2092f59a0b4ee597.JPG.

I will look for John Lidgards Half Tonner "Demijohn" she was very curvy.

Gorgeous - but think of all the deck space that tumblehome eliminates.

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17 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Gorgeous - but think of all the deck space that tumblehome eliminates.

Having a very similar S&S design from the same builder, just one year newer, I can attest to S&S having provided wide side decks by making the cabin narrower. Cuts down quite a lot of interior space, though.

1 hour ago, SloopJohnB said:

Young Nick a SS One tonner.

 

1146648259_YN2.JPG.3ea78208678032f7ea5445f51445efc2.JPG

1042877166_YN1.JPG.3b2f36a20e8ea10a2092f59a0b4ee597.JPG.

I will look for John Lidgards Half Tonner "Demijohn" she was very curvy.

That was fun, because googling Young Nick led me to some pictures of my own Pathfinder that I had not previously seen. 

Young Nick's restoration is inspirational.

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On 12/1/2020 at 10:23 AM, NaClH20 said:

Since the thread drifted downwind a bit (max length/width =/= tumblehome, for the record), here’s another wiseass post....

Max length/width warship award goes to the Russians:

3067837F-33AD-4200-971E-765B21E580C4.jpeg.c7180091fe3653f1dfb6dd6dcb5f62dd.jpeg

Length/beam plus tumblehome, and sailing! (sorta):

 

In the same vein...

SVxAyHP.jpg

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16 hours ago, weightless said:

Yep.

pgs_ramformtitan_pgs02166_rgb_860x484px.

 

WTF is it?  Oops, never mind, moving a little slow this morning.  It is a beautiful day here in the PNW looking across the Straits of Juan de Fuca.  Can almost convince myself that life is normal.  Got my Customs tag this week for returning from next summer's wonderful cruise into the BC waters and doing the fall oil change.  Hope going north is not a pigment of my imagination.  Bon Jour Canadians!

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41 minutes ago, zenmasterfred said:

WTF is it?  Oops, never mind,

WTF or at least how TF is still an open question for me. I'm kinda thinking there's something along these lines going on:

image.png.aaeb304e0035d8203f8a3070f38dbb1d.png

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267566572_Optimum_hull_spacing_of_a_family_of_multihulls

An array of bulbs / hulls with zero bridge deck clearance doing some kind of fancy wave interference thing?  Maybe it also sharpens razor blades? 

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8 hours ago, zenmasterfred said:

WTF is it?  Oops, never mind, moving a little slow this morning.  It is a beautiful day here in the PNW looking across the Straits of Juan de Fuca.  Can almost convince myself that life is normal.  Got my Customs tag this week for returning from next summer's wonderful cruise into the BC waters and doing the fall oil change.  Hope going north is not a pigment of my imagination.  Bon Jour Canadians!

We hope you can make it too.

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21 hours ago, zenmasterfred said:

Got my Customs tag this week for returning from next summer's wonderful cruise into the BC waters ...Hope going north is not a pigment of my imagination.  

Got mine this week, too, with the same hope.

A little salty that they wouldn't simply "give" me a 2021 sticker, since I never got a chance to use the 2020 version.

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32 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Got mine this week, too, with the same hope.

A little salty that they wouldn't simply "give" me a 2021 sticker, since I never got a chance to use the 2020 version.

You're one of those rich American yachtsman - you can afford it.

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11 hours ago, mcpusc said:

yamaha 25.... 9' beam on a 20' lwl means some angles are pretty comical:

yamaha1.jpg

But from most angles it's one of the best looking 1/4 Pounders ever.

image.png.36e8650f8b1e1002356199ec8c01c234.png

Also, the best built. I was on the first one to arrive here in the 70's - it was a quantum leap in quality over the standard builds of the time - a mini Swan. They have stood up extraordinarily well over the intervening decades.

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Hughes / Northstar 25 / 500, another 9' beam / 20' WL with very pronounced tumblehome.    They must have put something in the water cooler at the S&S office in the early 70's.

See the source image

There is one at the Marina I have my boat at that unlike most boats there, gets out quite often.  Despite what look like really old sails, it seems to move very well.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

But from most angles it's one of the best looking 1/4 Pounders ever.

image.png.36e8650f8b1e1002356199ec8c01c234.png

Also, the best built. I was on the first one to arrive here in the 70's - it was a quantum leap in quality over the standard builds of the time - a mini Swan. They have stood up extraordinarily well over the intervening decades.

I actually enjoyed the years I spent sailing mine.  I only had 4 complaints:  1)  Tiller was too short  2) Masthead rig required multiple different sized headsails 3) Reefing the main was necessary for helm balance when the wind got up much  4)  Almost too stiff,  at anchor in a roll anchorage, my boat was tick/tick/ticking like a metronome while the Cal 34 next door just gently heaved and mildly rolled...

Definitely well built and solid with a very comfy cabin for 1 or 2 while cruising. (having the 1 cyl Yanmar under the V-berth was a bit weird though...

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On 11/29/2020 at 1:39 AM, Somebody Else said:

I don't know the designer but I can guaranty it's British.

English designers of IOR boats produced the ugliest, most distorted boats in the thousands of years history of things that float.

 

On 12/3/2020 at 7:36 PM, fastyacht said:

Marathon canoe converted to sailboat?

Beat me to it.  Like most of the funky IOR boats, C-2 marathon canoes are built to be rule benders.

abfad08ccf12dcfa2d5ffbc85f68d9b6_f330.jp

 

6 hours ago, bridhb said:

Hughes / Northstar 25 / 500, another 9' beam / 20' WL with very pronounced tumblehome.    They must have put something in the water cooler at the S&S office in the early 70's.

See the source image

There is one at the Marina I have my boat at that unlike most boats there, gets out quite often.  Despite what look like really old sails, it seems to move very well.

The 26 was even worse.  Same hull, with a standing headroom cabintop.

My Dad had one, it was nicknamed 'Beluga'.  They did sail better than they looked.

100_3697-tm-boat-for-sale.jpg

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18 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Other than the tiller, all your complaints were due to the fundamental nature of 1/4 Tonners.

Yup,  this is very true.  It was still a ‘not too bad’ little boat.

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SS Charles W. Wetmore  carried masts and sails when launched.

Construction and equipment[edit]

The Wetmore was built in 1891 as hull #112 of the American Steel Barge Company works.[2] The Wetmore was 264 ft (80 m) long with a beam of 38 ft (12 m) and a 16.4 ft (5.0 m) draft and gross tonnage of 3,000. Her power was a single 700 horsepower (520 kW) steam engine, but she also had four jury masts with sails for emergency use. As typical for freight whalebacks, there was a small turret at the bow which had anchor hoisting machinery and other equipment. Three turrets at the stern raised the stern cabin and pilothouse off the hull. Her single stack exited through one of the turrets.[3] A typical crew complement was 22.[4]

2215.b.13.10.37.1.jpg?sequence=1
 

Shown above as rigged for the first trans Atlantic Whaleback loaded in the Great Lakes for England.

The Wetmore was the first whaleback to operate outside the Great Lakes, when in June 1891,[5] as a way to promote the whaleback design, she was sent to London and Liverpool, England, carrying a cargo of 95,000 bushels of grain.[6] This required traversing the rapids of the Saint Lawrence Riveras she was too big to fit through the locks of the time, and was therefore practically a one-way journey. After her visit to England, where she reportedly caused a "sensation" she returned to New York and loaded machinery and equipment there and in Philadelphia.[4] She then sailed to Everett, Washington, via Cape Horn. Her journey was covered in the Puget Sound local press. The equipment was to be used to start a new shipyard, The Pacific Steel Barge Company, and to outfit a nail mill and iron 

 

 

 

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Remember these were built when steel was the new thing, iron the old. The old fleet of wood schoolers were towed in long tows around the Lakes by screw propeller freighters. Reverse the bow, make it a bulb. Is all it’s missing. Windage, cost of coal, merciless waves and a vision launched these Lakers.

The Whaleback was a design by Captain Alexander McDougall (1845–1923), a Scottish-born Great Lakes seaman and ship’s master.[2] At the time a vessel’s size was limited by the locks and rivers that had to be navigated and by the materials and science of hull construction, not by the power and ability of steam engines to push hulls through the water. It was, therefore, common practice to have a powered vessel towing one or more barges or “consorts”. Many of these consorts were converted sailing schooners. Others were "schooners" that were built to be consorts and never intended to sail on their own, except in an emergency. Still others were bulk carriers that had not yet been fitted with propulsion machinery.

McDougall had learned from experience the difficulties encountered in towing these vessels. The bows and spars made them subject to the forces of wind, wave, and the prop wash from the towing vessel, with the result that they often did not follow well. His purpose was specifically to create a barge design that could be towed easily and would track well.[1]:48

l

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32 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Boats with lots of tumblehome look best on the hard.

This is a Cat 38

Which came from the Yankee 38 (which, dodgers aside, I feel looks nicer than the Ranger 37).

And the Yankee 38 was derived from Ted Turner's S&S 38 Lightnin'

Yankee 38.jpg

lightnin'.jpg

Yankee.jpg

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Boats with lots of tumblehome look best on the hard.

This is a Cat 38

 

 

Tumblehome.png

Agreed. I never get tired of looking at the boat.

 

1 hour ago, 12 metre said:

Which came from the Yankee 38 (which, dodgers aside, I feel looks nicer than the Ranger 37).

And the Yankee 38 was derived from Ted Turner's S&S 38 Lightnin'

Yankee 38.jpg

lightnin'.jpg

Yankee.jpg

Have always been a fan of the Yankee 38 but the Ranger just has that look.

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Mm8hEjnE9WYsBbFy6

20181109_131100.jpg

20181109_153256.jpg

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On 12/9/2020 at 2:11 PM, SloopJonB said:

Boats with lots of tumblehome look best on the hard.

This is a Cat 38

 

 

Tumblehome.png

Your picture and this thread caused me to do some searching on the Cat 38 design, lines & specifications, and I've come the the conclusion that the boat I now own is essentially a wooden Catalina 38 with a skeg. Or were all the S&S designs of that size and era so similar? Differences in hull and rig seem very subtle. 

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S&S were very conservative and their designs progressed in a very methodical way.

You will find if you go through their designs in sequence they will do exactly as you describe - minor mods to a base "look" from one boat to the next.

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Makes sense. Mine is S&S 2062, the Yankee 38 was apparently 2094. Might help if I go looking for used sails... 

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46 minutes ago, Oceanconcepts said:

 Or were all the S&S designs of that size and era so similar? Differences in hull and rig seem very subtle. 

While what SJB says about the progression of S&S IOR boats of that era, you will find most IOR boats pre 1972 or so (and even back to the late RORC era) had a similar what I would call an S&S look to them.  Anything by any of the top designers of that era had a similar look to them be it Camper & Nicholsons, Holman Pye, even Dick Carter pre-Ydra.  Of course boats designed with CCA in mind looked quite different.

As an example, below shows the drawings of 2 Carter designs superimposed.  Wai Aniwa (1971) has the S&S profile while Ydra (1972) has more of a Peterson/Holland look except with a skeg rudder but without the trapezoidal keel.  Wai Aniwa is the solid line, Ydra is the dashed line. Wai Aniwa mid section is more slack bilged while Ydra is shallower and rounder

Post 1973 everyone started doing the Peterson/Holland look

 

Ydra_Wai Aniwa profile.jpg

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3 hours ago, fastyacht said:

Except that some Australian and New Zealand desogners most definitely did NOT do the Perterson Hollan lokkk

......

and the world kept turning

I was talking about the next step in IOR evolution after the S&S look.  The pintail era only really lasted 2-3 years at best.  The kiwi approach didn't really come into it's own in North America until 1976 with Magic Bus and Fun.  Although one could argue the writing was on the wall in 1975 at Deauville where the two Farr QTs showed everyone the next step forward.  Or the 75 AC where Gerontius surprised a lot of observers.

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When I was a kid walking the docks I always found the Siedelmans to be super fat for their length.

 

Seidelmann 25 - YachtShots

Seidelmann sailboats for sale by owner.

How did these boats do back in the IOR days?  Where they a successful design for IOR racing?

 

picseidelmann25bc.jpg

 

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Those boats were similar to my Kirby - wide flare so lots of beam & space on deck but narrow at the WL so as long as you kept the heel under 20 degrees they weren't really "fat boats".

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5 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Those boats were similar to my Kirby - wide flare so lots of beam & space on deck but narrow at the WL so as long as you kept the heel under 20 degrees they weren't really "fat boats".

Did that make them perform better than the "fatter" boats at the water line?

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2 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

When I was a kid walking the docks I always found the Siedelmans to be super fat for their length.

 

Seidelmann 25 - YachtShots

Seidelmann sailboats for sale by owner.

How did these boats do back in the IOR days?  Where they a successful design for IOR racing?

 

picseidelmann25bc.jpg

 

I was voing to dig up seidelman catalog butwas toolazy. Thank you for bringing them in.

I felt same way

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2 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Did that make them perform better than the "fatter" boats at the water line?

All other things being equal (i.e. similar RSAT, L, and DSPL) it would tend to make them perform better in light air and downwind in some wind.  But to get the same '"stiffness" it would have to have a lower VCG, which would increase the rating  - so you would have to trim back on speed producing features like  RSAT, L, or Draft - or increase DSPL to get her back down to level.  All of which would hinder overall performance. 

In other words - your typical design tradeoffs.

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2 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Did that make them perform better than the "fatter" boats at the water line?

Well, my Kirby had a 7' or so WL beam but flared to 9'6" on deck - keeping the heel down meant that the boat was "skinnier" so, according to conventional wisdom, faster.

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2 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

When I was a kid walking the docks I always found the Siedelmans to be super fat for their length.

 

Seidelmann 25 - YachtShots

Seidelmann sailboats for sale by owner.

How did these boats do back in the IOR days?  Where they a successful design for IOR racing?

 

picseidelmann25bc.jpg

 

Never heard of them doing much or anything. IOR was popular in North America  among bigger boats (i.e. One Ton and up) but was never all that popular with smaller boats - probably due to the cost of measurement.  A bit of popularity maybe among smaller boats in the early days of IOR., but not much by the late 70s IMO.

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1 hour ago, 12 metre said:

Never heard of them doing much or anything. IOR was popular in North America  among bigger boats (i.e. One Ton and up) but was never all that popular with smaller boats - probably due to the cost of measurement.  A bit of popularity maybe among smaller boats in the early days of IOR., but not much by the late 70s IMO.

The Holland 25 ,designed for Australia , with a 10 foot beam .was an extension of Ron Hollands quartertonner eygthene which won the 73 world cup

1469ACCB-1AAA-4C5D-B8B3-3BFBAC8396B4.jpeg

image.jpeg

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this place is slipping.. almost two pages and no tits?

 

this is tumblehome

image.jpeg.a554072450d4bff03e8e02fbfe2beb67.jpeg

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4 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Did that make them perform better than the "fatter" boats at the water line?

I understand from notes about Ron Holland design eygthene the side decks were wide and narrowed in at waterline so that crew sitting on the rails contributed maximum righting force .

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6 hours ago, BBender said:

The Holland 25 ,designed for Australia , with a 10 foot beam .was an extension of Ron Hollands quartertonner eygthene which won the 73 world cup

Uhmmmm....I as referring to the Seidelman.  Not Eygthene or other assorted successful wide deck beam narrow waterline beam IOR designs, of which there were plenty.

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5 hours ago, BBender said:

I understand from notes about Ron Holland design eygthene the side decks were wide and narrowed in at waterline so that crew sitting on the rails contributed maximum righting force .

Which was not a novel concept.  In 1972 Elvstrom won the HT cup with Bes (an Elvstrom/Kjaerulff design) with mini wings to allow the crew to hike.

A bit of controversy over the stanchions/lifelines.  Stanchions were initially outboard on the wings, but they were forced to move them inboard to comply with safety regs.  They countered that by slackening the lifelines to still allow the crew to hike.  For some reason, that was permitted.

373539376_197209CYBabetteHTCBes.thumb.jpg.e655375237eafc1363a15d894a1dab42.jpg

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Of course no discussion about wide deck beam / narrow waterline IOR boats is complete without mentioning some of Gord Trowers' work from the very early 70's such as Warbird (drawing and photos below) or Mach 1(drawing below with wave piercing bow) which was never allowed to be measured due to the blatant attempt to circumvent the intention of the IOR bow measurement.

There was also an early days QT named Psyko that had an outrageously large beam but was a real dog.  Somehow 13 ft beam rings a bell.  Can't find any photos or drawings of it on the web, but it is mentioned in  post #68 in this very old SA thread circa 2004 .

 

warbird.jpg

1971310617_1974CYQTCwarbird.jpg.d3eb53e2e069819b0a79b29136674056.jpg

warbird.jpg.5c9b54c61f34bf9157c270648c9356ac.jpg

Mach 1.jpg

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Back in the IOR days there certainly were some extreme designs pushing the rules to the limit.  I’m not sure if Ron Holland designed Eygthene with a future life in mind however he later drew up plans  for  the Holland 25 with an extra one foot in length and beam and a proper coachroof low or hightop  . She has  proved to be a popular boat in Oz with over 150 built in the 70/80s  in masthead and fractional rigs . The big attraction was she was a light wind flyer for dad to race around the sticks competitively and  an enormous cabin ,including an enclosed head, for families spend holidays on .Some even have a drop keel for trailering . They still are a popular boat today .

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/holland-25-plus-4-heaps-of-extra-room/245667

F9E94A4B-2C12-4FA7-8800-7ACE6213166E.jpeg

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4 hours ago, BBender said:

Back in the IOR days there certainly were some extreme designs pushing the rules to the limit.  I’m not sure if Ron Holland designed Eygthene with a future life in mind however he later drew up plans  for  the Holland 25 with an extra one foot in length and beam and a proper coachroof low or hightop  . She has  proved to be a popular boat in Oz with over 150 built in the 70/80s  in masthead and fractional rigs . The big attraction was she was a light wind flyer for dad to race around the sticks competitively and  an enormous cabin ,including an enclosed head, for families spend holidays on .Some even have a drop keel for trailering . They still are a popular boat today .

https://yachthub.com/list/yachts-for-sale/used/sail-monohulls/holland-25-plus-4-heaps-of-extra-room/245667

F9E94A4B-2C12-4FA7-8800-7ACE6213166E.jpeg

Bloody hell. My old Sharks were 6'10" beam and crawling headroom. That's palatial.

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