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13 minutes ago, spankoka said:

Why are there certified piston aircraft that use road diesel or jet fuel, but yet diesel outboards are not mostly not tenable? 

I'm going to make a WAG that the weight to power ratio is very high compared to a gas outboard.

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A friend had one of these, but a 36HP.  Heavy, slow and noisy!  Pretty efficient with fuel.  It was nice having Diesel Fuel rather than Gasoline on the boat.  The local mechanic, who is really good, had only 'Heard' about these engines.  The regular bits were relatively easy to source.  Down Shaft went bad and had to be custom made, luckily didn't end up too costly!

 

yan-ff.jpg

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2 hours ago, spankoka said:

Why are there certified piston aircraft that use road diesel or jet fuel, but yet diesel outboards are not mostly not tenable? 

Evinrude produces multi fuel outboards for the military 

expensive 

https://www.evinrude.com/content/dam/evinrude/Global/MY2020/Documents/outboard-specs/ETEC-55-HP-MFE-Outboard.pdf

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10 hours ago, IStream said:

It's been sounding promising for about three years now. 

 

8 hours ago, andykane said:

With dual counter-rotating crankshafts and patented "Spaceball" design. Impressive.

Exactly! If I were in the market for a new OB I'd look carefully at it (and plan to in a couple of years when I will be).

It's lighter, more fuel efficient, better torque profile, safer fuel, more reliable and longer lasting etc. etc. (according to PR)...so why is it not sweeping the market?

Are the claims exaggerated (cause no one ever overhyped their new product entry before)?

Is it hampered by a lack of distributed infrastructure and support (is your local marina/dealer/mechanic put off by Spaceballs?)?

Are Yanmar optimizing pricing by charging the price insensitive first while they build volume / production capacity?

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17 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Rasputin knows.

 

Pathfinder diesel on boats was asolutely terrible, unreliable and a true maintenance headache. GM did the same with their 350 and you don't find many of those operating any more. When you replace spark ignition with compression, you need a lot heavier metal.

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4 minutes ago, the Ancient Mariner said:

Pathfinder diesel on boats was asolutely terrible, unreliable and a true maintenance headache. GM did the same with their 350 and you don't find many of those operating any more. When you replace spark ignition with compression, you need a lot heavier metal.

Can you tell us more about what was the problem with the Pathfinder?

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6 hours ago, KC375 said:

 

Exactly! If I were in the market for a new OB I'd look carefully at it (and plan to in a couple of years when I will be).

It's lighter, more fuel efficient, better torque profile, safer fuel, more reliable and longer lasting etc. etc. (according to PR)...so why is it not sweeping the market?

Are the claims exaggerated (cause no one ever overhyped their new product entry before)?

Is it hampered by a lack of distributed infrastructure and support (is your local marina/dealer/mechanic put off by Spaceballs?)?

Are Yanmar optimizing pricing by charging the price insensitive first while they build volume / production capacity?

It’s just not manly enough for the market segment ....who wants to boast they only used 12 litres of fuel to catch a copper arsed batfish ?  Hell you can burn that much just getting out of the marina with quad set up of verado V8s .

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2 hours ago, the Ancient Mariner said:

Pathfinder diesel on boats was asolutely terrible, unreliable and a true maintenance headache. GM did the same with their 350 and you don't find many of those operating any more. When you replace spark ignition with compression, you need a lot heavier metal.

Heavier Metal,  like MegaDeath?  Old Black Sabbath?

(yeah,  yeah compression combustion requires a lot more COMPRESSION than ignition combustion,  I know

 

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found some air cooled lawnmower style one banger diesels real cheap from china a few hundred vs many thousands for boat motors

https://nongdapower.en.made-in-china.com/product/vXZJKHFPrhpf/China-China-Nongda-198f-10kVA-15HP-Air-Cooled-Single-Cylinder-Diesel-Engine.html

and the yanmar they copied

https://www.google.com/search?q=remove+diesel+fuel+injectors+yanmar&client=firefox-b-1-d&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Hg5v8JyF3YAx-M%2Ck5lr3Lthp6XlgM%2C_&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kTfc45W-OlXeNd5-ZY_7HXVHDRUBg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjwm_2Rq63tAhUbSTABHUfVDAwQ9QF6BAgkEDs#imgrc=7nsc8U7AvBMBWM&imgdii=mSTos5sB2TIypM

 

I have B&S outboard with a 5hp gas motor aircooled I trashpicked

I wonder if one of the above diesels could be used on the B&S lower unit

looks like they use standard mounting holes same as the gas motors but the crank end is different on the B&S
AND ALL THE ABOVE MOTORS ARE HORIZONTAL NOT VERTICAL

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4 hours ago, 44forty said:

It’s just not manly enough for the market segment ....who wants to boast they only used 12 litres of fuel to catch a copper arsed batfish ?  Hell you can burn that much just getting out of the marina with quad set up of verado V8s .

Cute. There’s a reason those Verados sell at thousands to one versus their diesel equivalents. It’s not being “manly.”

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First of all, the "diesel" aircraft engines you refer to do not burn No. 2 diesel, they burn Jet A kerosene or the equivalent which is rather more similar to No. 1 diesel, which is blended in with No. 2 when necessary to prevent it from coagulating in temperatures below freezing. As an aviation alternative to 100 low lead gasoline, AKA "Avgas", Jet A's chief advantage is it's available in more countries where the use of tetraethyl lead to inhibit detonation is prohibited. Tetraethyl lead is a highly toxic and environmentally harmful additive only tolerated in the US private aviation fleet because of the low quantities and economic impact to a sizable constituency of owners. Gasoline for marine purposes doesn't have lead so there is less environmental pressure to eliminate it from marine applications.

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You really, really have to want a diesel outboard instead of a gas one to buy one so there is a small market. Diesel engines are lots more expensive due to higher compression ratios (much stronger block/pistons/rods etc required), a precision fuel injector pump, and injection nozzles. So everybody buys gas outboards.

Well except if you're doing oil recovery in a hazardous environment. Sparks are best avoided then. 

SOLAS Rescue boats certainly don't have use diesel outboards. Some flag states don't like it but usually they restrict the amount of fuel to 2 x 20L or something similar. SOLAS says you have to protect the fuel tanks (in the rescue boat) against fire & explosion. Don't forget there is no magic "SOLAS" organization that inspects stuff like this. Individual countries enforce the provisions of SOLAS and other IMO codes through their own laws & regulations.

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7 hours ago, Monkey said:

Cute. There’s a reason those Verados sell at thousands to one versus their diesel equivalents. It’s not being “manly.”

My mechanic called the Verado “A Welfare Motor”. He said they’re Big, they’re Black, and They Don’t Like to Work!

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7 hours ago, Monkey said:

Cute. There’s a reason those Verados sell at thousands to one versus their diesel equivalents. It’s not being “manly.”

Even if the yanmar was any good would you endorse it ?   Being in the industry and all . 

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4 hours ago, Zonker said:

You really, really have to want a diesel outboard instead of a gas one to buy one so there is a small market. Diesel engines are lots more expensive due to higher compression ratios (much stronger block/pistons/rods etc required), a precision fuel injector pump, and injection nozzles. So everybody buys gas outboards.

Well except if you're doing oil recovery in a hazardous environment. Sparks are best avoided then. 

SOLAS Rescue boats certainly don't have use diesel outboards. Some flag states don't like it but usually they restrict the amount of fuel to 2 x 20L or something similar. SOLAS says you have to protect the fuel tanks (in the rescue boat) against fire & explosion. Don't forget there is no magic "SOLAS" organization that inspects stuff like this. Individual countries enforce the provisions of SOLAS and other IMO codes through their own laws & regulations.

Much higher price is a great way to drive away purchasers. So only financially attractive for heavy users /  commercial applications where greater efficiency and life span may mean a lower total cost of ownership.

If you are weight sensitive then Maybe diesel does not appeal. The Yanmar diesel is almost twice the weight of a comparable gas unit.

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17 hours ago, the Ancient Mariner said:

Pathfinder diesel on boats was asolutely terrible, unreliable and a true maintenance headache. GM did the same with their 350 and you don't find many of those operating any more. When you replace spark ignition with compression, you need a lot heavier metal.

Says the guy who has never even been on a boat before. 

 

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3 hours ago, 44forty said:

Even if the yanmar was any good would you endorse it ?   Being in the industry and all . 

Absolutely. I’ve already said good things in past threads about Yamahas, Honda’s, and Evinrudes, so I don’t see any reason not to say anything nice about Yanmars. Truth is, I simply don’t know anything about them, so won’t say anything good or bad. 

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5 hours ago, silent bob said:

My mechanic called the Verado “A Welfare Motor”. He said they’re Big, they’re Black, and They Don’t Like to Work!

repeating a racist joke an blaming your mechnaic.... weak

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1 hour ago, JohnMB said:
7 hours ago, silent bob said:

My mechanic called the Verado “A Welfare Motor”. He said they’re Big, they’re Black, and They Don’t Like to Work!

repeating a racist joke an blaming your mechnaic.... weak

It's his brand.

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25 minutes ago, nota said:

a better link to the aircooled 1 banger Yanmar's

https://pdf.directindustry.com/pdf/yanmar-europe-bv/l-n-l-v-l-w-series/23424-911948.html#open

anyone seen one used on a boat ?

I have a 7 hp one-banger in my concrete mixer. Holy crap does it shake. But the rope start is cool. No way would that work in a boat. After destroying the rigging it will tear itself off the beds. Even the two cylinder Yanmar is a shaky beast. A friend has one that turns the boat into a blur both at idle and at speed. But I had a 3 cylinder diesel in a boat long ago, it was super smooth. Perhaps better than 4. 3 is the minimum in my opinion.

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10 hours ago, silent bob said:

My mechanic called the Verado “A Welfare Motor”. He said they’re Big, they’re Black, and They Don’t Like to Work!

When you tell lies,  that makes you a liar.  And when you tell racist jokes that makes you a racist.

Own that.  It's yours now.

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4 hours ago, Great Red Shark said:

When you tell lies,  that makes you a liar.  And when you tell racist jokes that makes you a racist.

Own that.  It's yours now.

Are you upset that I made a "Racist Joke", or that you chuckled and were afraid your husband might have noticed?

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24 minutes ago, silent bob said:

Are you upset that I made a "Racist Joke", or that you chuckled and were afraid your husband might have noticed?

And there's the homophobia.

I'm holding out for the trifecta.

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15 hours ago, silent bob said:

My mechanic called the Verado “A Welfare Motor”. He said they’re Big, they’re Black, and They Don’t Like to Work!

and that friends is racism in a nutshell, harmless enough on the surface but showing a deep vein of ignorance and very bad comedy skills

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29 minutes ago, silent bob said:

Are you upset that I made a "Racist Joke", or that you chuckled and were afraid your husband might have noticed?

No you're just another ignorant fuckwit who thinks they are funny and is now looking for other fuckwits to support your manly ways.

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5 hours ago, El Boracho said:

I have a 7 hp one-banger in my concrete mixer. Holy crap does it shake. But the rope start is cool. No way would that work in a boat. After destroying the rigging it will tear itself off the beds. Even the two cylinder Yanmar is a shaky beast. A friend has one that turns the boat into a blur both at idle and at speed. But I had a 3 cylinder diesel in a boat long ago, it was super smooth. Perhaps better than 4. 3 is the minimum in my opinion.

Ive got an old 2gm and its surprisingly smooth at operating speed which is north of 2700 most of the time. The one lungers are ok, Ive had Bukh 10's and they are donk, donk rumblers but liveable with provided they are insulated and mounted well. Heavy flywheels= good but air cooled motors are beasts from hell!

To add, three or four cylinders are waaay better though

 

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28 minutes ago, IStream said:

I don't think the cost of diesel is the main issue.

True but part of me think that if it becomes expensive enough people might eventually stop buying those silly 4wd cars to do shopping runs!

With COVID, I've bought myself a nice folding bike and stopped using the tube when I go to Paris, it is amazing how car drivers feel threatened by cyclists, they should be happy, the more cyclists the less traffic jams but some of them seem perfectly happy to endanger my life just to defend "their" bit of tarmac. It's a bit hopeless in my view, some people who are perfectly nice and reasonable become monsters behind the wheel of their car, driving licenses should be considered like a privilege, not a right!

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To answer my own question, I don't think the R&D budget is there for the limited market of very pricey compression ignition outboards. However, the fad for pricey center console powerboats might make manufacturers think twice about this. That would have trickle down effects for lessor outboards. I remain unconvinced that light smooth compression ignition outboards are technically impossible.

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My family has had two VW rabbit based diesels in boats totalling about 25 years of ownership.  The first was a pathfinder and the second was a  Brazillian version.  They have both been extremely reliable so I don't buy the arguement that a crazy amount of 'metal' is required for compression-ignition systems.  And as noted above, ridiculously light for a 4 cylinder diesel at 43hp.

Of course as a converted gas engine the stroker crank in this engine doesn't leave clearance in event of a timing belt failure - so don't let the timing belt fail!  Complete used heads off a Rabbit are getting hard to come by so this is not longer a $100 fix..

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The "Rolling Coal" crowd isn't the least affected by fuel pricing - their Bro-dozers are already very expensive toys.  They soot down other road users because they are fucking cowards - they would NEVER pull that crap if they thought they would ever be held the least-bit accountable for their behavior.  Lot's of 'tough guys' sitting behind the wheel with lots of steel to protect them.

The Point?   " Rudeness is often used to imitate strength by weak people"

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The whole rolling coal thing I dont get. I understand that its a fuck you to environmental standards and they justify it by ranting about freedom something something, but really they are just assholes. Its the same selfish, pig ignorant sentiment that's behind not wearing a  mask in a pandemic.

Its a whole different thing when you're working your D-10 Caterpillar pushing a mountain aside, then its justified to a degree.

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Cummins would have something to say about that. As stated in "The Engine That Could", their position is that if you ever see visible smoke from a properly maintained diesels, it's a failure of the designers.

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

Cummins would have something to say about that. As stated in "The Engine That Could", their position is that if you ever see visible smoke from a properly maintained diesels, it's a failure of the designers.

It’s the exact same syndrome that causes kids to put fart cans on their Honda’s, Harley guys to put obnoxious pipes on their bikes, etc. It’s the “hey, look at me!” syndrome. 

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I actually investigated the purchase of Evinrude diesel outboards in Mexico, where they are sometimes used by fishermen. I was interested in building a Kurt Hughes trimaran design with twin outboards in wells in the stern that they could be raised to allow anchoring in shallow waters. Superior range was the incentive. What I learned was California would allow them only if the engines and boat were purchased in Mexico and later brought to San Diego so I would have had to build the boat down there. Plus then bringing parts into the US would be a major PIA. I also heard, but never confirmed, that the diesel Evinrudes were smelly beasts and prone to leaking fuel which would be a definite no no.

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2 hours ago, Monkey said:

Harley guys to put obnoxious pipes on their bikes, etc. It’s the “hey, look at me!” syndrome. 

When cage drivers can be bothered to pay attention I will happily go back to my stock pipes.  It is a pain in the ass to idle through neighborhoods to keep things quiet and my pipes are far from open tubes.  I am a measured 10db louder than the stock pipes at normal operating rpm.

My Harley has been down twice now.  1000 pound bike with three lights on the front (headlight + 2 white driving lights, always on) and still invisible at intersections.

Both times drivers did slow and go Right on Red turns.  The first one hit me broad side, with me dropping the bike the second our I would have hit the car in the drivers door.  Both times the drivers claimed they did not see me.

If car drivers could be bothered to look out for me I would not need the ability to drop gears to force them to hear me.  

 

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I hate to break it to you but loud pipes don't make it any easier to see you or even to locate you via the sound. They do manage to piss everyone off, though, and partly as a result it was my pleasure to vote for the mandatory helmet law when it appeared on the ballot. You're welcome.

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I have no issues with helmets and wear one every time I ride though I carry top level personal injury on my insurance so am not mandated by state law to do so.  When I drop a couple of gears and grab the throttle people turn their heads to see where the noise is comming from so it is heard.  NTSB studies have gone both ways on pipes.

I find them as obnoxious as you obviously do but 40 years experience in the saddle has shown me having the ability to make the extra noise does increase awareness.  I will happily go back to the stock pipes if the laws would allow me to install a horn loud enough to be head clearly.

My pipes are 50 state legal.

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20 hours ago, toad said:

The whole rolling coal thing I dont get. I understand that its a fuck you to environmental standards and they justify it by ranting about freedom something something, but really they are just assholes. Its the same selfish, pig ignorant sentiment that's behind not wearing a  mask in a pandemic.

Its a whole different thing when you're working your D-10 Caterpillar pushing a mountain aside, then its justified to a degree.

Two words:     Recreational Pollution

If you're getting work done it's not a free pass,  but at least then it IS a good arguement

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I've never seen a law limiting the horn sound level!   That is a VERY common upgrade performed by many riders - heck,  check out the Aerostich collection's ear-cannon - hardly a bunch of hooligans there.

I find your argument silly - both of your situations occurred IN FRONT of you (and most do,  see the Hurt report)  - your (low-frequency) sound goes out the back.  There is a reason sirens are high-pitched, too - for location awareness, specifically because low-end sounds are notoriously BAD for that - and,  besides,  if you want to rip out a bunch of noise,  why the dramatic downshift?  You sound like every poser, ever.  You want to make some noise to feel better about yourself just own it already.  Motorcycles are dangerous.  Accept it or get a Camry.

loudest.jpg

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17 hours ago, kinardly said:

I actually investigated the purchase of Evinrude diesel outboards in Mexico, where they are sometimes used by fishermen. I was interested in building a Kurt Hughes trimaran design with twin outboards in wells in the stern that they could be raised to allow anchoring in shallow waters. Superior range was the incentive. What I learned was California would allow them only if the engines and boat were purchased in Mexico and later brought to San Diego so I would have had to build the boat down there. Plus then bringing parts into the US would be a major PIA. I also heard, but never confirmed, that the diesel Evinrudes were smelly beasts and prone to leaking fuel which would be a definite no no.

I clearly recall Evinrude/(Tohatsu?) diesel outboards for sale here in Hawaii.  For about a half-hour, in the '90s. 

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19 hours ago, IStream said:

Cummins would have something to say about that. As stated in "The Engine That Could", their position is that if you ever see visible smoke from a properly maintained diesels, it's a failure of the designers.

I'm being metaphorical, not saying that a working machine should ever look like its rolling coal. Plenty of big machines typically puff a bit of black when the load comes on though.

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Just now, toad said:

I'm being metaphorical, not saying that a working machine should ever look like its rolling coal. Plenty of big machines typically puff a bit of black when the load comes on though.

Yup, understood. Same thing with my Cummins if I hit the throttle too fast for the turbo to keep up. 

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15 hours ago, Little Wood Boats said:

I have no issues with helmets and wear one every time I ride though I carry top level personal injury on my insurance so am not mandated by state law to do so.  When I drop a couple of gears and grab the throttle people turn their heads to see where the noise is comming from so it is heard.  NTSB studies have gone both ways on pipes.

I find them as obnoxious as you obviously do but 40 years experience in the saddle has shown me having the ability to make the extra noise does increase awareness.  I will happily go back to the stock pipes if the laws would allow me to install a horn loud enough to be head clearly.

My pipes are 50 state legal.

Yeahh nah, I call bullshit on the pipe noise.   The confusion comes exactly because of what your saying, if people are outside and not driving then sure they will hear a loud noise coming but if you are in a vehicle coming the other way forget it. They are not hearing shit until they are all over you unless they are going so slow, windows down that it wouldn't make a difference anyway.  Loud pipes are in fact worse for safety because they distract your situational awareness, try riding a bike with and without back to back. How do I know? because my bike has very loud pipes due to it being mainly a track bike, I wear earplugs 100% of the time and even though I love loud bikes, for the street I prefer quiet.

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17 minutes ago, toad said:

I'm being metaphorical, not saying that a working machine should ever look like its rolling coal. Plenty of big machines typically puff a bit of black when the load comes on though.

The newest pickup diesels don't do this unless you "delete" them (remove the emission controls). My 2015 Ford does not smoke uphill or down, no matter how much you abuse the throttle. It does not smell and the exhaust pipe tip is clean, no soot. Rolling coal is the result of poor injection control leading to poor combustion, modern HPFI common rail engines eliminate almost all of that, and the particulate trap eliminates the rest. And the one ton dual rear wheel Ford gets better fuel mileage than my Honda Ridgeline "truck", even if the Honda is loaded in the back of the Ford....

I don't see any reason small diesel outboards could not be built, there would be emissions problems and the market is not there as they would be expensive. 

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On 12/1/2020 at 11:05 AM, spankoka said:

Why are there certified piston aircraft that use road diesel or jet fuel, but yet diesel outboards are not mostly not tenable? 

Just to get back on track, the main reason they are not tenable is weight or rather power to weight. Compression ignition engines need to be beefier as the loads are far greater, technology has improved the ratio immensely but petrol engines are better in almost every way except one which is economy. The longevity of a diesel is also compromised the lighter they are built so unless there are specific reasons you might need a diesel, for 95% of users petrol is better so manufacturers havent developed them

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The current issue with Diesel engines is that the emission controls are mostly in contrast to what is otherwise good for the engine.
They restrict exhaust flow and retain heat.  Both of which rob an engine of power and longevity.
Improvements in the performance of these systems increases their complexity, costs and maintenance schedules.

I believe diesel outboards are possible.
Without emission controls they may be feasible.
With emission controls, a bit complex and expensive compared to gas engines.  At least currently.

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1 hour ago, Great Red Shark said:

I've never seen a law limiting the horn sound level!   ....

 

I believe generally most states have some version of “unreasonably loud or harsh”...which then puts it up to the discretion of the LEO.

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17 hours ago, Little Wood Boats said:

I am a measured 10db louder than the stock pipes at normal operating rpm.

Great.

A 10 dB increase is perceived by human hearing as TWICE as loud.  So an increase of 80 -> 90 dB is "mildly annoying -> "what an asshole" 

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41 minutes ago, silent bob said:

"Nuggent was arrested on suspicion of disturbing the peace."

He'd been driving around for weeks using his air horn at 4 am as a result of a dispute with a resident. He likely would have been charged regardless of the horn used...although an air horn certainly would raise the disturbing the peace.

The article made no mention of any citation under the California Vehicle Code.

I believe the relevant California regulation relative to Car horns is

Vehicle Code section 27000(a): A motor vehicle shall be equipped with a horn in good working order and able to emit sound audible under normal conditions from a distance of not less than 200 feet, however, the horn shall not emit an unreasonably loud or harsh sound.

I certainly suspect that the air horn in question would likely be deemed "unreasonably loud or harsh" and that in addition to the disturbing the peace charge their may be charges add related to Vehicle Code those could also include section 27001

27001. (a) The driver of a motor vehicle when reasonably necessary to insure safe operation shall give audible warning with his horn. (b) The horn shall not otherwise be used, except as a theft alarm system which operates as specified in Article 13 (commencing with Section 28085) of this chapter.

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2 hours ago, KC375 said:

"Nuggent was arrested on suspicion of disturbing the peace."

He'd been driving around for weeks using his air horn at 4 am as a result of a dispute with a resident. He likely would have been charged regardless of the horn used...although an air horn certainly would raise the disturbing the peace.

The article made no mention of any citation under the California Vehicle Code.

I believe the relevant California regulation relative to Car horns is

Vehicle Code section 27000(a): A motor vehicle shall be equipped with a horn in good working order and able to emit sound audible under normal conditions from a distance of not less than 200 feet, however, the horn shall not emit an unreasonably loud or harsh sound.

I certainly suspect that the air horn in question would likely be deemed "unreasonably loud or harsh" and that in addition to the disturbing the peace charge their may be charges add related to Vehicle Code those could also include section 27001

27001. (a) The driver of a motor vehicle when reasonably necessary to insure safe operation shall give audible warning with his horn. (b) The horn shall not otherwise be used, except as a theft alarm system which operates as specified in Article 13 (commencing with Section 28085) of this chapter.

The El Segundo cops are a special breed. If you fuck with the locals, they’ll fuck with you.  A friend rolled thru a stop sign, cop pulls him over, sees the ES address, and tells him to have a nice day!  Most others, not so lucky!  This guy was a NUT!

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10 hours ago, toad said:

Just to get back on track, the main reason they are not tenable is weight or rather power to weight. Compression ignition engines need to be beefier as the loads are far greater, technology has improved the ratio immensely but petrol engines are better in almost every way except one which is economy. The longevity of a diesel is also compromised the lighter they are built so unless there are specific reasons you might need a diesel, for 95% of users petrol is better so manufacturers havent developed them

The Mercury diesel outboard is a spark ignition engine.........it’s a converted Optimax (direct injection 2 stroke)

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19 minutes ago, Mudsailor said:

The Mercury diesel outboard is a spark ignition engine.........it’s a converted Optimax (direct injection 2 stroke)

That sounds like an awkward collaboration. All the bad aspects of both in one unit.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

That sounds like an awkward collaboration. All the bad aspects of both in one unit.

Correct. However it’s purpose is to maintain a gas engine’s weight while not requiring gasoline. It was never intended to achieve the typical diesel benefits. It was originally designed to meet the Navy’s requirements for a high performance outboard that didn’t require gasoline stored on board its mothership. 

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23 minutes ago, Little Wood Boats said:

At 3,000 rpm I am quieter than the neighbors new Hellcat so its all relative but continue on with your false assumptions.

So 4 wheeled antisocial behaviour justifies 2 wheeled antisocial behavior...

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15 minutes ago, KC375 said:

So 4 wheeled antisocial behaviour justifies 2 wheeled antisocial behavior...

Not at all.  With the exception of one specific situation I keep the noise to a minimum.  I have no problem riding in from work in the middle of the night without disturbing my neighbors.  After swapping the factory installed four speed tranny for the Baker six speed my 72' year model bike is quieter at 70 mph than new factory stock options.

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1 hour ago, Little Wood Boats said:

What type of plugs do these engines use?  I would have thought diesel would be oily enough to foul a set of spark plugs.

No specific knowledge here but gasoline spark plugs can't run very hot or they'll cause pre-ignition. I would imagine you could run a much hotter plug with diesel. Even if you could keep it from fouling, I agree with Ish that a spark fired diesel would be an abomination.  

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1 hour ago, Little Wood Boats said:

What type of plugs do these engines use?  I would have thought diesel would be oily enough to foul a set of spark plugs.

It uses both spark plugs and glow plugs. The diesel gets atomized with compressed air so that it’ll work with spark plugs. It’s a weird engine. 
edit:  Off the top of my head, I’m not sure which exact plugs it runs, but I’ll check on Monday. 

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1 hour ago, IStream said:

No specific knowledge here but gasoline spark plugs can't run very hot or they'll cause pre-ignition. I would imagine you could run a much hotter plug with diesel. Even if you could keep it from fouling, I agree with Ish that a spark fired diesel would be an abomination.  

Pentagon purchasing can lead to some unusual creations, especially when multimission is over emphasised...maybe pick one of single fuel source for mother ship and RIBs or standard outboard weight

AND if that is not enough you can get a fully submersible multifuel outboard you can launch from a submarine...evinrude version and raider version......

It must be fun to be in sourcing at the Pentagon

 

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1 hour ago, KC375 said:

Pentagon purchasing can lead to some unusual creations, especially when multimission is over emphasised...maybe pick one of single fuel source for mother ship and RIBs or standard outboard weight

AND if that is not enough you can get a fully submersible multifuel outboard you can launch from a submarine...evinrude version and raider version......

It must be fun to be in sourcing at the Pentagon

 

The Mercury version was multi fuel and submersible as well. It was a big old “share the wealth “ government project. The only difference between it and the diesel version are stickers and ECU programming. 

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4 hours ago, Godzilla said:

How many diesel piston aircraft engines have you ever seen in person?

 I read about them in magazines for decades but don’t think I ever saw one in person.

As far as I know Diamond is the only company using them. Maybe others in Europe? They are made by MBZ. Started out with a different manufacturer but it didn't go well. 

These days, there is a lot less difference in the lower ends between gas and diesel. Turbo'd gas engines are approaching the same torque in the low end as diesel. At least in production cars. 

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Cessna and Diamond are the only ones I know of. The market for these aircraft is going to be where Avgas is hard to come by, not North America. With Continental/Cessna in the business, that puts compression ignition engines in the general aviation mainstream.

The point, is these engines and the Audi R18 obviously have good power to weight and run smoothly. However, I get it that aircraft and race cars do not have emission standards and do not have to be affordable.  

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