Jump to content

A trimaran daysailer foraging boomers


Recommended Posts

Designing a daysailer for aging boomers

There’s a case to be made for a design of a trimaran that fits the nice market for aging sailors. Boomers are after all the original instigators of the sailboat boom and the love of sailing hasn’t gone away but age puts a limit on agility and physical strength. With the exception of a few old salts, sailors our age like to go out for a few hours when the weather is nice and be back in time for cocktails or other leisure activities, without spending a couple of hours rigging up and rigging down for every outing.

Personally, I want all the good things from daysailers like the Ensign, Alerion, small O’days etc. but without the hull speed limits, the tippy-ness and weight of a monohull. 

A trimaran in the 20 to 25 foot range, with a very simple rig that can be completely handled from the cockpit would do nicely. I won’t be looking for a performance-first boat, I’ve had plenty of that and I mostly want the joy of quiet and effortless sailing in semi-protected waters. That said, I don’t want a ‘dog’, so I’ll expect an excellent hull fineness ratio plus good Bruce and RPI numbers but still a safe craft. Of course, that points to lightweight and more expensive construction but I’ve found that using high tech composites selectively doesn’t affect total vessel price by more than a few percent. While my other half says to just buy a Corsair or Dragonfly, I think that there is a case to be made for a new design, as even those beautiful trimarans have way too many strings to pull and are trying too hard to be pocket cruisers/club racers, which also makes them much more expensive. There are several other small tri’s out there, but none have the simplicity nor the low enough price tag that I am looking for.

So here are my ‘specs’ or wish list.

- A flared main hull with high enough bow and topsides to avoid getting doused by small waves or boat wakes plus a deep and roomy cockpit with comfortable seating for 4 and no mid-way obstructing beams or travelers to try to get over. No cruising accommodation, just a minimal cuddy cabin or other arrangement for stowage of essentials.

- Swing or folding arms with firm tramps when deployed, with a handrail on the back beam to get easily on/off the craft- Full amas to enhance stability and flat sailing.

- An open transom would be nice, and swing-up rudder(s?) and centerboard are a must.

- An unstayed wing mast, preferably gimballed or otherwise easy to lower/dis-assemble, placed as far forward as feasible to create extra cockpit space and make the mainsail the primary driving force. An under-foredeck tabernacle would be ideal, and with a carbon wing mast the weight could be kept down sufficiently to make raising/lowering the mast safe and fast. I already made a mock-up of a tabernacle system that is handled by the primary winch and would weigh less than fifty pounds.

- A fully battened square top main on a mast track with cars, with a Dutchman or similar system for easy hoisting/lowering the sail. Plus a self-tacking roller furler jib, cut high enough not to impede visibility.

- Boomless main sail to save the old noggins from an incidental and potentially disastrous whack, with a Heneman sheeting arrangement instead of a traveler.

From reaching out to trimaran designers, builders and other people in the know, I have a great feedback that we could incorporate quickly in a full spec. If we can get a design done over the winter, we can pick a builder next spring and be on the water just in time for COVID to be over!

Looking forward to expert feedback!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 209
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

My perfect daysailer. Everything at an armslength reach,same rating as an F 27 ,omly one winch , but jibforces do not actually need a winch. Rudder with foil to dampen her hobbyhorsing tende

That is how I ended up with one of these also. This is the 16ft version of the 10fter. Not the normal rig but borrowed from various beach cats. I couldn't afford a WETA so built instead. There are a f

That one is not for sale any more, it's in my driveway

Posted Images

"An unstayed wing mast, preferably gimballed or otherwise easy to lower/dis-assemble, placed as far forward as feasible to create extra cockpit space and make the mainsail the primary driving force. An under-foredeck tabernacle would be ideal, and with a carbon wing mast the weight could be kept down sufficiently to make raising/lowering the mast safe and fast."

I've owned a large number of small trimarans. I see the free-standing mast as a huge obstacle. Hobie and Windrider have done it with 200 to 300 lb boats, and less than 100 sq. ft. of sail. A 20 footer with a cat/ketch rig could meet most of your design parameters. B and B Yacht Design in North Carolina specializes in cat/ketch rigs, and they've designed some trimarans, but I'm not aware of any work they've done combining the two.

Link to post
Share on other sites

You may want to look at the Sea Pearl 21 Trimaran and see how that meets or doesn't meet your needs.

In my opinion, the parameters that you've laid out so far will lead to a heavy boat, and the sail area that can be supported by a freestanding mast on a smaller, relatively heavy boat will not lead to satisfactory performance.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, dragontri said:

Designing a daysailer for aging boomers

There’s a case to be made for a design of a trimaran that fits the nice market for aging sailors. Boomers are after all the original instigators of the sailboat boom and the love of sailing hasn’t gone away but age puts a limit on agility and physical strength. With the exception of a few old salts, sailors our age like to go out for a few hours when the weather is nice and be back in time for cocktails or other leisure activities, without spending a couple of hours rigging up and rigging down for every outing.

Personally, I want all the good things from daysailers like the Ensign, Alerion, small O’days etc. but without the hull speed limits, the tippy-ness and weight of a monohull. 

A trimaran in the 20 to 25 foot range, with a very simple rig that can be completely handled from the cockpit would do nicely. I won’t be looking for a performance-first boat, I’ve had plenty of that and I mostly want the joy of quiet and effortless sailing in semi-protected waters. That said, I don’t want a ‘dog’, so I’ll expect an excellent hull fineness ratio plus good Bruce and RPI numbers but still a safe craft. Of course, that points to lightweight and more expensive construction but I’ve found that using high tech composites selectively doesn’t affect total vessel price by more than a few percent. While my other half says to just buy a Corsair or Dragonfly, I think that there is a case to be made for a new design, as even those beautiful trimarans have way too many strings to pull and are trying too hard to be pocket cruisers/club racers, which also makes them much more expensive. There are several other small tri’s out there, but none have the simplicity nor the low enough price tag that I am looking for.

So here are my ‘specs’ or wish list.

- A flared main hull with high enough bow and topsides to avoid getting doused by small waves or boat wakes plus a deep and roomy cockpit with comfortable seating for 4 and no mid-way obstructing beams or travelers to try to get over. No cruising accommodation, just a minimal cuddy cabin or other arrangement for stowage of essentials.

- Swing or folding arms with firm tramps when deployed, with a handrail on the back beam to get easily on/off the craft- Full amas to enhance stability and flat sailing.

- An open transom would be nice, and swing-up rudder(s?) and centerboard are a must.

- An unstayed wing mast, preferably gimballed or otherwise easy to lower/dis-assemble, placed as far forward as feasible to create extra cockpit space and make the mainsail the primary driving force. An under-foredeck tabernacle would be ideal, and with a carbon wing mast the weight could be kept down sufficiently to make raising/lowering the mast safe and fast. I already made a mock-up of a tabernacle system that is handled by the primary winch and would weigh less than fifty pounds.

- A fully battened square top main on a mast track with cars, with a Dutchman or similar system for easy hoisting/lowering the sail. Plus a self-tacking roller furler jib, cut high enough not to impede visibility.

- Boomless main sail to save the old noggins from an incidental and potentially disastrous whack, with a Heneman sheeting arrangement instead of a traveler.

From reaching out to trimaran designers, builders and other people in the know, I have a great feedback that we could incorporate quickly in a full spec. If we can get a design done over the winter, we can pick a builder next spring and be on the water just in time for COVID to be over!

Looking forward to expert feedback!

My boat (searail 19) checks most of the boxes.  And I bought it for the same reasons-being a baby boomer ,,, :the love of sailing hasn’t gone away but age puts a limit on agility and physical strength. With the exception of a few old salts, sailors our age like to go out for a few hours when the weather is nice and be back in time for cocktails or other leisure activities, without spending a couple of hours rigging up and rigging down for every outing."  That being said, it does take a couple hours rigging and unrigging (lots of things have to be done in order to be safe); so I just sail 2 or 3 days in a row and leave set up in the local marina.  The 2:1 main halyard means you don't need the cars.  The boomless mainsail means the traveler is way aft so you have a good sized cockpit (and you can't kill someone with a bad gybe).   Roller furling self tacking jib means upwind is as effortless as downwind. You might find it easier to get Mundt's L7, though, since searails are harder to find than hens teeth.

If you aren't set on a trimaran, you might look at a Hobie Getaway since it is another easy to sail  day sailing boat with plenty of room and quick to get rigged.  It is a bit of a wetter ride (splash from below; not spray) and it is easier to capsize-which is why I have my SeaRail instead of staying with the Getaway.  Plastic hulls work and no daggerboards

If money is not a concern, the Pulse 600 is similar to the searail but, being made by corsair, is pretty expensive for what you get.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

If this topic wasn't posted today I wouldn't expose myself to this.......

But that dang Windrider 17 - I was imagining picking up a used one and starting by cutting away a lot of the plastic extra weight - and, of course, no way I'd want to sit in the hatches...and then change the controls (some have done this, but maybe it can be done better)......

I'm not THAT GOOD of a mechanic, but I am very handy. I think someone with some genius could convert of those things to a Boomer Tri. Quite a difference between 5K and that next step up!

You already get so much plastic and metal for the money (used) - I have to wonder if anyone ever really took the carving knife to one of these things.

Short of that, I do like that Astus 16.5 but no USA sales or support - that could fit some of the aging boomer market....which I think has to have a price point. After all, any true aging boomer wants

two houses in many cases

Some Nice rides

Ability to travel overseas and elsewhere without years of savings

Whatever the other 1/2 wants

And perhaps a couple boats - in addition to various club memberships (tennis, golf, whatever).

Have I missed anything? College for the grand kids is a given...

I let my 750 go for 25K or so - so until the used Pulses get old enough (or desperate enough) to hit the low 20's I don't think the aging boomers will snap 'em up.

This aging boomer has sailed Getaways and Waves in 20kt gust conditions where the rental place (Hobie sound, miami?) looked at me funny....and was never near a capsize. Maybe it's not a long way from flying the hull 2 feet to a capsize?

I have to admit I am in that position to a degree. I have considered a small mono (I mean real small - like club boats - 15" or smaller), but I don't want to capsize boats, I know I can keep a mono with a stub keel standing in most any weather (my Precision 18 in tough conditions in RI)....but I cannot say I feel the same about centerboard boats. Even stub keel means weight = harder to get sailing (not kept in water) and less beaching.

That leaves the decision tree in various places including getting any or all of the above and making sure of the conditions I sail in. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, craigiri said:

But that dang Windrider 17 - I was imagining picking up a used one and starting by cutting away a lot of the plastic extra weight - and, of course, no way I'd want to sit in the hatches...and then change the controls (some have done this, but maybe it can be done better)......

I'm not THAT GOOD of a mechanic, but I am very handy. I think someone with some genius could convert of those things to a Boomer Tri. Quite a difference between 5K and that next step up!

 

Those are some of the big flaws in the WR17.  The biggest one, though, is it is a poor boat to weather.  It points poorly....no, that gives it too much credit, it is a horrible boat to windward.  If all you do is reach reach; yah, fun ride, but if you want to go upwind, pack a lunch and dinner and hope to get there before sunset.  Here's a video of a WR17--look at the tack angles.  

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the feedback. Sorry, I didn't mean to go dark and non-responsive but we had a bit of a Nor'easter here and power and internet were out till just now. This is great info and a lot of good insight. I cracked up a bit when I saw "newbie" under my SA handle... I've been building and racing multihulls since the 1980s but I had turned away from sailing to chase the mighty dollar in wind and aerospace industries. Now that I am officially retired and I find myself with the big seven-O in the rear view mirror I am still suffering from a severe case of  boatitis - the incurable disease of needing boats as a focal point in my life.

Going to San Francisco to see the SAILGP cats fly around the Bay at close to 50 knots was a bad idea in hindsight: despite the fact that I am in the midst of building my last-ever boat, a 38 foot carbon fiber power trimaran, I decided there and then that I needed a sailboat again. We did the spectator thing, watching the races and sailing around the Bay on my son’s 30 footer for a few days. This was my first time back on a monohull in 25 years and I did not enjoy crawling around on a heeling boat with too little space to accommodate four people comfortably and getting stuck at a top speed of about 7 knots with the lee rail in the water. Consequently, I spent the winter browsing any and all boat selling sites for a suitable and reasonably priced small tri, to no avail. What caught my eye however was a beautiful Ranger 22 in ready to go condition with a trailer and a full set of sails for no real money. No trimaran but I had myself a little daysailer.

My other half went on it once and after a short outing she was covered with bruises and declared she wouldn’t set foot on it again. So off I went for single-handed sailing, thinking it would be easy. It was not! I guess my age and the layout of the deck hardware conspired to reducing my sailing trips to long beam reaches, as every maneuver illustrated that this was not a boat to single-hand for an old guy. Nimble and fun as she is, there are too many strings to pull and they’re not well positioned. Going to the foredeck is a hazardous passage: too much tight standing rigging to get around plus a cambered narrow deck and low lifelines; not risk free for my less nimble septuagenarian body! My sailing area is Casco Bay and we get pretty good sea breezes most afternoons, and when the tide runs against the wind it gets choppy, making single handed sail handling a bit tricky. Plus getting her out of the water onto the trailer and taking the mast down a couple of times during the season because of heavy weather was a half day affair for two people. So the Ranger will be looking for a new owner next spring and I’m on the quest again for my ideal daysailer.

So now you'll hopefully see why I want all the things in the spec above. Many of the trimarans have a lot of what I'm looking for but none of them have it all. I am aware of most of the designs mentioned in the feedback but having sailed none of them, I am grateful for your input.  Keep it coming, and thanks!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good luck in your search.   Suggest you go to http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/ where there are a plethora of small tris discussed, some production, some home built.  I think you are looking for a unicorn unless you want to build it yourself.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Good luck in your search.   Suggest you go to http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/ where there are a plethora of small tris discussed, some production, some home built.  I think you are looking for a unicorn unless you want to build it yourself.

 

Thanks MultiThom, I've been in touch with Joe at smalltrimarans, lots of useful info but no Unicorns. I'm afraid you're right about it being one. I was aware of this when I decided to post on SA, but I'm hoping that either someone has the unicorn I am looking for or has a partially built project that they want to unload. I have the knowledge and plenty of carbon fiber and epoxy (and a complete composites fabrication shop) to do such project, I'm just not ready to start from scratch at this point. Even just a completed main hull and a wingmast mold in the 10 meter range would get me way ahead.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The staying dry part is easy. Stay below 10 or 12kt depnding on the boat size.

The platform seems similar to a Strike 18 or Pulse (very different, I know)

As for the rig, take a look at Fast Forward Composites hybrid wing. It's not freestanding, but it has most of the same advantages, like not getting hung up on stays and low sheet loads. Randy Smyth used a small one on his trimaranish race boat for the Everglades Challenge

Price: use the "pick two from a  triangle" decision model :-)

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, TwoBirds said:

wouldn't an antisub frigate be much better than a trimaran if you're foraging for boomers?

Nah, A P3 Orion.  MAD, MAD, MAD...

Link to post
Share on other sites

It sounds like you have the skills to build your desired free standing mast from carbon.  How bout getting yourself a small tri, maybe a Tramp, Windrider or Searail, and stick your mast in it. A non-rotating tube the same length as a beachcat mast so you can get sails easily and cheaply.  Acats also have really nice carbon masts.  In my experience (still sailing a beachcat and small tri regularly) you should just grab something off the shelf and sail it.  Spending a lot of time and money building something will end up disappointing you.  The standing rigging on small tris is pretty much a non issue when you're sailing.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, mundt said:

It sounds like you have the skills to build your desired free standing mast from carbon.  How bout getting yourself a small tri, maybe a Tramp, Windrider or Searail, and stick your mast in it. A non-rotating tube the same length as a beachcat mast so you can get sails easily and cheaply.  Acats also have really nice carbon masts.  In my experience (still sailing a beachcat and small tri regularly) you should just grab something off the shelf and sail it.  Spending a lot of time and money building something will end up disappointing you.  The standing rigging on small tris is pretty much a non issue when you're sailing.  

Don't see how that would work.  There's no mast step on either WR or SR, just a ball/pin that the mast rides on top of.  Sans shrouds, mast fall down go boom.  But I agree, unless you really love to build an already constructed boat is more fun immediately; and most boomers do see the light at the end of the tunnel and want fun now, not years from now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not really seeing what boxes the F22 or whatever the corsair / dragonfly equivalent is doesn't tick?

There are 3 important factors in making a multihull nice to sail:  Weight, displacement, and mass.

Even at weta size, unstayed rigs are shitters, the scaling effects make them even worse.  Give me a nice light fractional rotating mast with adjustable diamonds and spreaders any day of the week, there is a reason they are ubiquitous. Fit an RCB track if you like, it will still weigh less than half a freestanding rig, and be easier to step and drop.

Any of the production boats, with anything you don't need removed (sprits, booms, floorboards etc) will make a better boat than you could possibly come up with.  With the advantage that you or your wife will also be able to sell it when the time comes.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Back a decade ago, I owned a triak trimaran which was 18 feet long, weighed 100 pounds had an unstayed carbon mast.  But it is a single seater and, more importantly, is no longer available.  There were a lot of good points (easy to paddle, light and easy to handle, quick to rig/unrig-especially if you put it on a trailer instead of car topping).  Lots of bad things as well, you sit inside and steer with feet and the floats are undersized and only attached with one bolt to the single aka so they tended to break.  That being said, I enjoyed it a lot for many years.  

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

lol, in my rush to be a smart ass I forgot why I was posting in the first place :)

Someone mentioned one Richard Woods boats and I just wanted to say that my first boat was a dinghy built from a set of his plans and I was quite impressed by how clear and easy to follow they were, I had very little woodworking experience, and how quickly the boat came together, have also had a ton of fun in it :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

Not really seeing what boxes the F22 or whatever the corsair / dragonfly equivalent is doesn't tick?

 

I think the big unsaid issue is $$$.  Hard to justify (in your own head) the cost of a car on something you play with once or twice a month.  Some Boomers have bunches of bucks, some not so much.  Many want to leave legacy $ to (un)deserving offspring so limit their enjoyment of their earnings...plus, since not earning new $, existing $ must last for as long as needed to end of days.  It is also tough (speaking from personal knowledge) to spend 60 or more years being frugal and then change to someone who is more frivolous with money.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, busted! I knew it was only a matter of time before somebody was catching me on that one, I should have looked the title over and put that space in there..."for (space) aging boomers". I don't know how to correct that so I'll live with the shame. FYI, I do forage a lot, wild mushrooms mostly but also bivalves and shore plants. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MultiThom said:

I think the big unsaid issue is $$$.  Hard to justify (in your own head) the cost of a car on something you play with once or twice a month.  Some Boomers have bunches of bucks, some not so much.  Many want to leave legacy $ to (un)deserving offspring so limit their enjoyment of their earnings...plus, since not earning new $, existing $ must last for as long as needed to end of days.  It is also tough (speaking from personal knowledge) to spend 60 or more years being frugal and then change to someone who is more frivolous with money.  

You're right on, the $$ are an issue; being retired makes it a bit harder to spend money outside the budget. Plus, the powertri that I'm building has already exhausted my boat fund. Fortunately, I had a couple of thousand pounds of extra carbon fiber that I sold off, which will help finish that project but I don't think I can convince my CFO to spend 50K on another toy. The feedback on this forum has been incredible, and I was up half the night musing and coming back to earth. Time is indeed not my friend and I should focus on finding an existing trimaran that needs some help but can be on the water next summer.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What you want doesn't exist, nor will it. $$$ and a very limited market play a large role in such a boat ever being produced. In the meantime, the closest you're going to get is the Windrider 17. I sailed the prototype for about a year. It doesn't point high, but if you're not in a hurry, so what? It's nearly indestructible, can be sailed in 40+ MPH winds, can carry 2, 3 or even 4 persons and a ton of gear. It's a clever and capable design and is easily rigged and sailed by one person. Yeah, it's ugly, but you can't see it from inside the boat so who cares. I've often thought, and even suggested (to deaf ears), that this same overall concept mated to an updated hull and sail plan design would be even more of a one hell of an all-around capable and fun boat.

This video (and many others) is from a dude that seems to have reconciled his desire to sail with what has ended up being practical for him at this stage in his life. And it seems like he's pretty happy with the boat and what it'll allow him to do. Maybe it's not your dream boat, but it'll keep you on the water and going places for a long time to come: 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

A friend let me use his (pretty worn) older Tremolino T-gull 23 a couple years ago for a week with an option to buy it, but while I liked some of the features, it was too hard for me with the low boom and the floppy tramps and rigging. It's what set me on the path of defining what I really wanted  in a sailing tri. One really valid point made here is the resale value for a stock design. Well, winter is here for a few more months, so my 2021 wish will be for a vaccine and a daysailer tri ...:D

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

My best recommendation for a relatively inexpensive trimaran that will carry two couples is a Tramp. They are not modern high performance boats, but they're comfortable, and faster than most monohulls. The masts are a lot lighter than the Corsairs' masts, so setup is easier. Prices have been going up on Tramps, and boats in good condition aren't generally a lot more expensive than ones in average condition. The first issue with a Tramp is locating one. The next issue is maintenance. Most of the Tramps I've seen have been on the deferred maintenance plan. Many come with the original sails. If you can find one at a reasonable price, it's worth putting money into sails, furlers, etc. In general, Tramps that aren't being  sailed regularly will need a lot of work. Keep in mind that Tramps are close to 40 years old. In my opinion, a well sorted and ready to sail Tramp is worth around $10K. Most of the ones I've seen for sale in the past year needed a lot of work and $5K worth of upgrades. A Tramp maintained in good condition will hold it's value.

For low cost and low maintenance, a Windrider 17 is a good boat. It's quite wet, though, and not comfortable for 4 adults, especially older adults. If you decide that your wife isn't going to sail with you regardless of which trimaran you get, it may be an ok option.

Everyone's got their own preferences and willingness to make trade offs. I think you need to sharpen your requirements if you're serious about getting a trimaran.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, hobiedd97 said:

For low cost and low maintenance, a Windrider 17 is a good boat. It's quite wet, though, and not comfortable for 4 adults, especially older adults. If you decide that your wife isn't going to sail with you regardless of which trimaran you get, it may be an ok option.

 

Someone who recently sailed a Ranger 22 will be horribly unhappy with the windward performance of a Windrider 17 (I was and I was sailing a triak at the time).  A new hobie Getaway will be quicker to weather, quicker downwind, you are not tied to one spot to steer with your feet and you won't have any trouble selling when you want something different since getaway's just can't be found on the used market. You don't have to be athletic (I'm certainly not); you just need to pick days with winds under 20 and/or put a reef in the mainsail (I did).  

Link to post
Share on other sites

The Windrider 17 isn't expensive, you can sell them on a whim (tremendous market from an almost cult-like following) and for people that just want to sail without having to physically manhandle a boat, it's a great choice and is, in fact, what it was designed for. And it'll take more weather in greater safety than just about any other small boat. Just depends on what you want to do with your sailing.

The Hobie Getaway may be "Gettin' Gone" as the molds have deteriorated to the point that Hobie is no longer producing the boat. Whether they will invest in new molds or not remains to be seen. The "low hanging fruit" as Hobie calls it, is in the kayaks and paddleboards. They've had a record sales year in 2020.

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

The Hobie Getaway may be "Gettin' Gone" as the molds have deteriorated to the point that Hobie is no longer producing the boat. Whether they will invest in new molds or not remains to be seen. The "low hanging fruit" as Hobie calls it, is in the kayaks and paddleboards. They've had a record sales year in 2020.

Hard to believe since they made new moulds in 2017 with reverse bows.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lots of very experienced guys giving very good advice.  Has anyone ever tried adding a leeboard or dagger to a Windrider?  Has anyone ever used a donor Nacra or F18 to upgrade a Tramp's amas, rig and sails?  And a couple boats that haven't been mentioned much but which I enjoyed owning and sailing a lot.  Hobie 21 sc, Hobie 18 with wings, Hobie 17, Weta, Pcat, Reynolds 21.  Once you get used to the wings they really improve the experience.  I just inherited a rare set of Nacra wings from a good buddy.  If I can figure out how to mount them my 5.5 could become a very serious all-around contender.  The real truth being that beachcats and Wetas will give you the highest bang for the buck.  My 7 meter trimaran is fairly light but moving it around by myself is pretty taxing.  My multi 23 was lighter but sailing it solo required similar athleticism and skill as any beachcat.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2020 at 2:21 PM, mundt said:

Yes, I'll tell you why.  Cost.  Just buy my L7 and all your dreams will come true.

The L7 is the answer!  Mine even has an easier mast to raise!  

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Amati said:

The L7 is the answer!  Mine even has an easier mast to raise!  

Mike (multimarine) did a good job with the L7.  Put an extended L7 mast on my F242 to try to make it work better in light wind (didn't work, by the way; F242 was still a dog in light breeze--most Corsairs are).  Currently, the best tri for $ is the used L7 Mundt is selling (or one of the others if you can find one).  But "best" is subjective.  When I was younger, my F242 was the best boat (but I wanted an F31); then a triak was fun since it was SOOOO simple but then it is hard to sit in one spot for hours as you get older; the the Getaway was the best boat, but I never felt safe from capsize, I probably was, but a gust from nowhere and whoosh.  Now a SeaRail.  Truth, best sailing boat I've ever owned, but it is a chore to get into and out of the water.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

Hard to believe since they made new moulds in 2017 with reverse bows.  

Believe it. I don't make up shit. The Getaway molds were out of shape by this past fall. They could no longer get good parts out of the mold.

..........

Mundt,

The Windrider has a keel to serve in the same manner as a daggerboard. For whatever reason the boat just doesn't sail close to weather. Otherwise it's a hell of a boat. A few years back I suggested to Dean that a redesign might in order - something that appeared and looked more modern. He said he didn't think it needed that. I've been thinking what might be possible with same overall concept but more modern hullls like the VPLP type being used on the Astus, Diam and Mod70 style boats. Would be interesting to see what that might do for both performance and sales. The concept has merit for those who want to sail in relative comfort and without a lot of athleticism. It has stood the test of time.

Andy is selling off a good portion of his various prototypes. I might call him this week and see if he'll let his personal WR17 go. Also for those that didn't know, Jim Brown's eyesight has gotten bad enough that he has given up sailing. But he is working on another project for a live-aboard style sailboat that he seems pretty excited about.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've owned a number of Windriders. They're great boats. Performance could be better in some regards, but they're a lot of fun, very safe, and very tough. I've got plans for the W17 from Mike Waters, which is similar to the Windrider in some regards, but much higher performance. It's designed for plywood, but I've been discussing a foam composite build with Mike. He's also got a 19' derivative that is being prototyped now. 4 good sized adults, per the OP's requirements, would probably overload the 17, but could work for the 19.

Not everyone's got the time to build. I know I've been planning to start for the past 2 to 3 years. In fact, I'll probably be sailing a Windrider some of the time until my build is done.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I rented a WR 17 near Sarasota and it was blowing hard (20kts) and the little inlet you had to go out was about 100 feet wide between sand and docks - and I was going right into the wind. Sometimes I don't realize how much I am learning or that I am doing the nearly impossible but no one told me it sucked....so I made it through. 

I frankly never need to go anywhere so perhaps upwind performance isn't that important....

It's always a boat worth discussion - because, in theory, they could redesign the thing and even with improvements I'd imagine it would sell well at 15K with a trailer new. But making new molds for roto.....and all the designing...would take a true lover of the boat with deep pockets. 

Whenever I see one I am always impressed with the actual size and build (thickness of masts, etc.).....

Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Tom Kirkman said:

 

The Windrider has a keel to serve in the same manner as a daggerboard. For whatever reason the boat just doesn't sail close to weather. Otherwise it's a hell of a boat. A few years back I suggested to Dean that a redesign might in order - something that appeared and looked more modern. He said he didn't think it needed that

He was 100% wrong. 
It's time for an update - a redesign would sell better and for more money - and, if the market expanded they could always sell the older one to more resorts and as beater boats and cheaper and have the new 15 or 16K model which sailed just a little better....

There is probably a designer somewhat who would look at it as a challenge to keep a lot of it the same but make it better. I'd love an open cockpit model - why not a WR Sprint (all cockpit - or mostly). Sitting in those seats for more than a hour is a PITA to me...even that. they could have some seating inside and one or two seats with backs that clipped onto the tramps or amas. 

It's always possible I'd end up with one anyway - in which case I'd only add some side seats and rudder controls, etc - and a small electric ON for that inlet if I ever had to go out it (I don't - because I am accessed the big part of the bay direct). 

While it might suck upwind - in shallow Florida you have the advantage of using vastly more of the water than on most other boats - so you can make up for some of it. Not much good pointing well if you are in 30 foot wide channel which snakes around. I am definitely spoiled by 11 years of sailing in RI.

Link to post
Share on other sites

How about the Mongoose 25 (google ‘mongoose 25 trimaran’)? I started building one in October. I’m approaching the big 60 and desire a performance daysailor. I feel this boat ticks all your boxes except the beam and traveler across the cockpit and stayed rig. This boat is not a fast build, I’m hoping 3 years. I plan on building the Mike Waters (smalltrimarans) 11 meter carbon wing mast and keeping the rigging on the simpler side.44691C7F-A753-4795-B4BE-2440D44A92E9.thumb.jpeg.c5a940c4c2e76e2b05ef67b1c1ed2c45.jpeg

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

That Mongoose is beautiful and looks a lot like what I have in mind. Did George provide plans? CAD? How are you going about it?  Material choices? The aft beam could easily be curved to bring it further back. Re the mast, I've been communicating with Mike Waters, I like his wing mast construction system. He really wants me to go for a W17 or W22. Stayed or unstayed mast is still up for debate but definitely a wing mast. Reason for unstayed is primarily to make it self-feathering and easy to drop, I have a system in mind that's a modification of Rafi Francke's Cat2Fold. We had a 72 ft wing stick with a 2 ft cord on Fleetwing and she scared the bejesus out of other anchored boats when she went sailing on her own anytime the breeze picked up. I remember being anchored in Bimini harbor when a blow came through, she cleared our area pretty quickly when other boats saw this 34 ft wide monster barreling towards them!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I purchased the plans from George. They are a majority CAD, some hand drawn, and a lot of photos. George is providing excellent advice (very generous with his time and knowledge) as I have questions. I have some boat building experience (i550). I decided to build this boat because of the simplicity and cost relative to Farrier designs, I have plans for both f22 and f32. Also, the Mongoose fits my planned function. I like that Moose (George) designed it too.

I’m aiming to keep the construction as simple as possible. I researched carbon and S-glass, things got complicated with these choices. I’m going with glass over vertical strip M80 corecell foam with west epoxy. High load areas get 12 lb foam and vacuum bagging. I’ve designed my own oven for heating the foam, that’s working out great. The beams and mast will be uni-carbon and pro-set.

I plan to keep the boat in a slip. The mast will be rotating to a point. Hopefully, the boat won’t sail about when stowed. Is that wishful thinking on my part?

CCA56FD5-91B3-43F7-B5B0-68219AAAE43C.thumb.jpeg.63c64535fd1bef1bf365064741b135dd.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dragontri said:

That Mongoose is beautiful and looks a lot like what I have in mind. Did George provide plans? CAD? How are you going about it?  Material choices? The aft beam could easily be curved to bring it further back. Re the mast, I've been communicating with Mike Waters, I like his wing mast construction system. He really wants me to go for a W17 or W22. Stayed or unstayed mast is still up for debate but definitely a wing mast. Reason for unstayed is primarily to make it self-feathering and easy to drop, I have a system in mind that's a modification of Rafi Francke's Cat2Fold. We had a 72 ft wing stick with a 2 ft cord on Fleetwing and she scared the bejesus out of other anchored boats when she went sailing on her own anytime the breeze picked up. I remember being anchored in Bimini harbor when a blow came through, she cleared our area pretty quickly when other boats saw this 34 ft wide monster barreling towards them!

Suggest you build your mast, then look for something to put under it.  I suspect that mongoose will set you back 50 to 100K US$.  Half that and 3 years if you do it yourself.

Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, mundt said:

if you're keeping it in the water I'd highly recommend any variation of the "floating" dock.  

Have you priced out such a thing?  I contacted locally and was quoted 20K US$ but he could only make it wider and longer than any slip in my local marina; so I'd have to get a double slip at nearly $1K a month.  Pretty costly for a 20 foot day sailboat.  Even then, I'd have to figure out how to winch on and winch off--easier to trailer sail.  But If I could get one made "right size", it would be do'able, sorta.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Call me biased (again) but on behalf of all the Corsair and Farrier owners imho all these comments and criteria are missing the fact that you just need the easiest budget version you can find of Sprint, Tramp, F22, Pulse, FOLDING Farrier or Corsair tri which will fit into hardstand at your club or at home,  with well maintained mast raising gear that gets easier each time you use it.  

These boats are built, most of us can find a few  for sale a tank of gas away,  and most of them can be sailed safely within a few days of buying. As my dad said when I looked at plans 7 trimarans ago, "do you want to build a boat or sail a boat? "

 I will cop it for sticking my head up here so here goes:

Free-standing mast and easy rigging and performace are mutually exclusive above the size of a model yacht.

Poly plastic boats are soooooo heavy and floppy, only good in a rotomoulded windsurfer decades ago. 

Sitting inside the cockpit facing forward is a kayak thing.

If you can't sail upwind efficiently, you are not sailing. 

Paying to moor or berth little boats is pouring good boat and sail money into the water.

Peace and Love!

Peter H

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/7/2020 at 10:05 AM, maxstaylock said:

There are 3 important factors in making a multihull nice to sail:  Weight, displacement, and mass.

Those three terms sound redundant to me?  (I know the difference, don't bother to explain.)  Surely there are other factors equally important, yet unrelated to weight/displacement?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Totally agree with Ply on the F boat thing.  Multithom, I've seen used floating docks go pretty cheaply, in the hundreds and the ones made for one or 2 jet skis are quite reasonable and would easily accommodate a small multi.  Fold your boat, yank it up on to the floating dock and go home.  My buddy kept his M23 on an inflatable one and it worked perfectly.  I guess if you try super hard you could find one for 20k, but I've seen em at very reasonable prices and the amount of misery they save you from being on an in the water end tie are immeasurable.

Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, OldmateFred said:

I sort of agree with plywoodboy until you realise that your budget doesn't allow you to buy a boat but you can afford to build one.

Plywood will tell you I don’t often agree with him but on this occasion I do 110%. 
If  do it yourself builders are really honest with you they will admit building a boat costs about the same as buying a good second hand boat especially after buying all the things you can’t build like fittings, rigging winches motor trailer etc. And they will tell you it also cost them at least three years. Being completely brutal a high proportion of people who say they want to build a boat are dreamers and never complete the job. 
The really vital question to ask is do you like sailing or do you like boat building. If the answer isn’t definitely the former, but what is around. 
Footnote: I agree with Plywood on most things but don’t tell him that!

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, plywoodboy said:

Call me biased (again) but on behalf of all the Corsair and Farrier owners imho all these comments and criteria are missing the fact that you just need the easiest budget version you can find of Sprint, Tramp, F22, Pulse, FOLDING Farrier or Corsair tri which will fit into hardstand at your club or at home,  with well maintained mast raising gear that gets easier each time you use it.  

These boats are built, most of us can find a few  for sale a tank of gas away,  and most of them can be sailed safely within a few days of buying. As my dad said when I looked at plans 7 trimarans ago, "do you want to build a boat or sail a boat? "

 I will cop it for sticking my head up here so here goes:

Free-standing mast and easy rigging and performace are mutually exclusive above the size of a model yacht.

Poly plastic boats are soooooo heavy and floppy, only good in a rotomoulded windsurfer decades ago. 

Sitting inside the cockpit facing forward is a kayak thing.

If you can't sail upwind efficiently, you are not sailing. 

Paying to moor or berth little boats is pouring good boat and sail money into the water.

Peace and Love!

Peter H

 

 

Agree with everything except the bit about poly plastic boats.  The two discussed above are both under 400 pounds total for 17 foot waterline length.  Find any other boat listed above or in the Corsair/farrier lineup that weighs that little--even weighs that little per lineal foot...Agree with the floppy part on the windrider 17, not so much with the Getaway.  Agree with all the rest and EMPHASIS on the upwind comment.  If you can't go to weather, might as well get a foiler and pretend to sail.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, mundt said:

I just checked, brand new floating jet ski docks are under 2k

Well, yah, they sell lots of them, but make it 20 feet long instead of 6 and 3 of them (1 per hull) with appropriate spacing so you end up 17 feet wide ... 

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, MultiThom said:

Agree with everything except the bit about poly plastic boats.  The two discussed above are both under 400 pounds total for 17 foot waterline length.  Find any other boat listed above or in the Corsair/farrier lineup that weighs that little--even weighs that little per lineal foot...Agree with the floppy part on the windrider 17, not so much with the Getaway.  Agree with all the rest and EMPHASIS on the upwind comment.  If you can't go to weather, might as well get a foiler and pretend to sail.

Not sure what foilers you’ve seen but contemporary A Cat foilers go upwind at over 20 knots as high as floaters. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are two incarnations of the Windrider 17. The original as developed by Andy Zimmerman and Jim Brown, comprised a one-piece main hull and a certain overall width that was just narrow enough to reside within the limitations of the plastic used to construct the boat from. When Andy sold WS to Precision, and Precision sold Windrider to Dean Sandberg, the company chose to increase the width of the boat by 10 inches to further increase stability. This greatly increased the "rack" possible when the boat is under strong pressure and this second incarnation is not as stiff as the original. Also, for reasons having to do with the oven length at the new owner's facility, the main hull of the newer boats is no longer a single unit, but assembled from 2 pieces, with the mating halves just behind the rear seat.

Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, WetnWild said:

Not sure what foilers you’ve seen but contemporary A Cat foilers go upwind at over 20 knots as high as floaters. 

They go upwind amazingly but I don't think they actually point as high as floaters. Caveat: I'm not an a-catter.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, WetnWild said:

Not sure what foilers you’ve seen but contemporary A Cat foilers go upwind at over 20 knots as high as floaters. 

Sorry, biased against foiling.  I think it is too technical to call sailing.  Like I said, I'm biased--perhaps even conservative.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah I used to think foiling wasn’t sailing quite a few years ago until I tried it and decided it is crazy fast sailing! Then I got too old and just do fast sailing!!

The mid fleet A Cat fleet foilers don’t go quite as high as floaters but those further up the skill and equipment range do. Differential rudder lift and better boards have changed the game. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

But back to the topic. 
IMHO the F22 is the best day sailor money can buy. But good luck getting one at the sort of prices mentioned above. When they were still in production in NZ I costed out a top of the range on the water with all racing gear and electronics on trailer and landed in Aus at around AUD$150k. There was a big waiting list though - over 100. I got a plan built one new and haven’t looked back. Best boat ever even with my bias showing!

Link to post
Share on other sites

My perfect daysailer.

Everything at an armslength reach,same rating as an F 27 ,omly one winch , but jibforces do not actually need a winch.

Rudder with foil to dampen her hobbyhorsing tendency

3 degree aoa “swiveling” daggerboard for narrower tacking angles and an outboard mount that is strong enough to tolerate 90 degr engine angles for tight manouvring.

Her only drawback is good looking but slippery foredeck angles that teaches you to always use” one hand for the boat”

Topspeed 19kt ,up to 15 kt is no big deal

and she is of a high age just like myself....

75A68CD3-D18A-4C30-98D2-A42785A86FBA.jpeg

AE2A2358-63C2-472F-B62A-BFE9B6E5CB5A.jpeg

550A6A62-6EDA-4F1F-B5D7-3BD072FFD11A.jpeg

5815229A-453F-425E-BB67-108656C05B81.jpeg

  • Like 9
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Those three terms sound redundant to me?  (I know the difference, don't bother to explain.)  Surely there are other factors equally important, yet unrelated to weight/displacement?

No other factors are universal.

 Length and beam are good for some things, and bad for others.

Ideal rig power/mast height varies according to use/conditions.  

Same for foil depth, area, and configuration, every dog has it's day.  

But lightweight, as long as it hangs together, is always of benefit, for cruising or racing, on passage or even pulling up a slipway or dismantling.  

Any decision, for any boat, but especially a multi, that increases mass by even 10%, better have a damn good payoff.

(Am planning a mod on my boat, that will weigh about 900g, but gain me up to 10 boat lengths per lap, not quite decided yet).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Though it’s not a trimaran, another small multihull daysailer to consider is the Maine Cat 22. Check Patmo141’s thread. I built a Constant Camber 23 trimaran which I am very pleased with. That design is now over 30 years old.  Realize that small multihulls don’t like being moored. The lighter and taller designs in particular. The dihedral comes into play as well with a trimaran. The rig needs to be tightly secured to keep from shaking apart in the chop. The bridle and mooring lines will need some sorting to work properly. Coming on and leaving the mooring with with your dinghy tied up is another  challenge . Good luck with your quest and enjoy the build.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2020 at 12:21 PM, dragontri said:

Designing a daysailer for aging boomers

There’s a case to be made for a design of a trimaran that fits the nice market for aging sailors. Boomers are after all the original instigators of the sailboat boom and the love of sailing hasn’t gone away but age puts a limit on agility and physical strength. With the exception of a few old salts, sailors our age like to go out for a few hours when the weather is nice and be back in time for cocktails or other leisure activities, without spending a couple of hours rigging up and rigging down for every outing.

Personally, I want all the good things from daysailers like the Ensign, Alerion, small O’days etc. but without the hull speed limits, the tippy-ness and weight of a monohull. 

A trimaran in the 20 to 25 foot range, with a very simple rig that can be completely handled from the cockpit would do nicely. I won’t be looking for a performance-first boat, I’ve had plenty of that and I mostly want the joy of quiet and effortless sailing in semi-protected waters. That said, I don’t want a ‘dog’, so I’ll expect an excellent hull fineness ratio plus good Bruce and RPI numbers but still a safe craft. Of course, that points to lightweight and more expensive construction but I’ve found that using high tech composites selectively doesn’t affect total vessel price by more than a few percent. While my other half says to just buy a Corsair or Dragonfly, I think that there is a case to be made for a new design, as even those beautiful trimarans have way too many strings to pull and are trying too hard to be pocket cruisers/club racers, which also makes them much more expensive. There are several other small tri’s out there, but none have the simplicity nor the low enough price tag that I am looking for.

So here are my ‘specs’ or wish list.

- A flared main hull with high enough bow and topsides to avoid getting doused by small waves or boat wakes plus a deep and roomy cockpit with comfortable seating for 4 and no mid-way obstructing beams or travelers to try to get over. No cruising accommodation, just a minimal cuddy cabin or other arrangement for stowage of essentials.

- Swing or folding arms with firm tramps when deployed, with a handrail on the back beam to get easily on/off the craft- Full amas to enhance stability and flat sailing.

- An open transom would be nice, and swing-up rudder(s?) and centerboard are a must.

- An unstayed wing mast, preferably gimballed or otherwise easy to lower/dis-assemble, placed as far forward as feasible to create extra cockpit space and make the mainsail the primary driving force. An under-foredeck tabernacle would be ideal, and with a carbon wing mast the weight could be kept down sufficiently to make raising/lowering the mast safe and fast. I already made a mock-up of a tabernacle system that is handled by the primary winch and would weigh less than fifty pounds.

- A fully battened square top main on a mast track with cars, with a Dutchman or similar system for easy hoisting/lowering the sail. Plus a self-tacking roller furler jib, cut high enough not to impede visibility.

- Boomless main sail to save the old noggins from an incidental and potentially disastrous whack, with a Heneman sheeting arrangement instead of a traveler.

From reaching out to trimaran designers, builders and other people in the know, I have a great feedback that we could incorporate quickly in a full spec. If we can get a design done over the winter, we can pick a builder next spring and be on the water just in time for COVID to be over!

Looking forward to expert feedback!

Where do you live?

Link to post
Share on other sites

FWIW, and it’s not a Tri, but a larger low rider A class ish thing with a light air flying head sail, no jib, and a cuddy across to throw junk in and in maybe sit in and a porta potty.  Roller furling boom used remotely.  Round carbon mast, not rotating.  Kind of a modernized Shark with an una rig.  I’d keep it at a Marina, so narrow enough to fit in a 30’ slip.  Or a 25’ slip.  But if it’s going to be trailerable, the mast step and the shroud attachments have to be at the same level and athwartship alignment so I’m not carrying around a lot of junk to raise the mast.  Use set and forget running backs. There’s a cat that was designed by a famous surfer that’s kind of close down at Marina del Rey, or it was.....

here’s a 30’ version, heavily influenced by the Gougeon 32

image.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

somersault/outrigger 26 ,Newick design , built in Chicago by Bill Murphy , interior ,Linda Murphy in 1989

First 15 years in the Carribean , now(container) in the Netherlands (Yellow painted now.)

45E7EE6F-FBED-46E0-B634-473CC500AB5F.jpeg

D59C33B9-D915-4507-B871-9014F3302408.jpeg

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Paranda said:

somersault/outrigger 26 ,Newick design , built in Chicago by Bill Murphy , interior ,Linda Murphy in 1989

First 15 years in the Carribean , now(container) in the Netherlands (Yellow painted now.)

45E7EE6F-FBED-46E0-B634-473CC500AB5F.jpeg

D59C33B9-D915-4507-B871-9014F3302408.jpeg

:wub:

Link to post
Share on other sites