Jump to content

A trimaran daysailer foraging boomers


Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Doug Halsey said:

But it raises the question: Is it possible for someone to edit their earlier posts? Seems like it would be a good idea.

You only have a short time to edit your posts.  Then you can only hide them.  Similarly for threads, if you start a thread, you can later hide it.  Moderators seem to be able to move threads from one forum to another, don't know whether or not they can edit the thread title like the OP wants to have done.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
  • Replies 206
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

My perfect daysailer. Everything at an armslength reach,same rating as an F 27 ,omly one winch , but jibforces do not actually need a winch. Rudder with foil to dampen her hobbyhorsing tende

That is how I ended up with one of these also. This is the 16ft version of the 10fter. Not the normal rig but borrowed from various beach cats. I couldn't afford a WETA so built instead. There are a f

That one is not for sale any more, it's in my driveway

Posted Images

Well, the 25K barrier for a used Pulse is here - someone should grab this up...and/or figure that if they really need to sell it, you might get it for even less:

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2016/corsair-pulse-600-400-3536910/

Given a couple months I'd be a potential buyer of something similar - 25K is probably very top of where my next boat would be, and even then only if really something worthwhile (sold my 750 - I feel it is too big to keep on the hard or sail in shallower FL waters). 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/7/2020 at 8:03 PM, Tom Kirkman said:

What you want doesn't exist, nor will it. $$$ and a very limited market play a large role in such a boat ever being produced. In the meantime, the closest you're going to get is the Windrider 17. I sailed the prototype for about a year. It doesn't point high, but if you're not in a hurry, so what? It's nearly indestructible, can be sailed in 40+ MPH winds, can carry 2, 3 or even 4 persons and a ton of gear. It's a clever and capable design and is easily rigged and sailed by one person. Yeah, it's ugly, but you can't see it from inside the boat so who cares. I've often thought, and even suggested (to deaf ears), that this same overall concept mated to an updated hull and sail plan design would be even more of a one hell of an all-around capable and fun boat.

This video (and many others) is from a dude that seems to have reconciled his desire to sail with what has ended up being practical for him at this stage in his life. And it seems like he's pretty happy with the boat and what it'll allow him to do. Maybe it's not your dream boat, but it'll keep you on the water and going places for a long time to come: 

 

Truth - reminds me of something which burnt into my brain.

OK, many people know Brian over on Ana Maria Island rents out WR17's. - so I'm up there maybe renting a small sloop or something and along comes a group of 5 (could have been 6) midwesterners - never had been on a sailboat, but wanted to sail. 

It wasn't more than 1/2 hour before I saw the entire crew of them out the inlet and headed in 100's of square miles of waters with only the Skyway Bridge in the distance - a couple sitting on short folding chairs on the tramps!

I mean - what other boat could one send out with that load - in that direction - and have it just come back a couple hours later?

I am fairly certain that no insurance is carried by any of the parties involved - and FL law may also be lax in terms of whether people are to be punished for their own waterborne mistakes. 

Still, the key here is that it didn't make the headlines. They lived - and probably it was one of the most fun things they had ever done. No aux. motor so they somehow had to find their way back to that tiny inlet. Maybe they called Brian and he met them at the pier or something? 

That thing is one tough platform. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/14/2020 at 2:21 PM, dragontri said:

I am not yet convinced that this will not include a light, cost-effective and well functioning free-standing wing mast. Having spent a fair bit of time in wind energy, I can't help but wonder why we couldn't come up with such a mast when the wind blade guys can build strong and cost-effective wind blades that are spinning continuously for 20+ years; the last ones I was involved with were 65 meter (215 feet) blades, now they're going to 107 meters (350 feet) for the Haliade-X. Me thinks that a 30 to 35 foot stick should be do-able? Just thinking outside the box.

I did put the wing mast question to a friend and peer who's principal engineer for development and innovation at one of the largest blade builders, he's chomping at the bid to have a go at it. He's a sailor, so he knows a bit about that aspect too... more to follow about this.

 

 

Designing the structure of the free standing rig is not the issue. The issue is designing the structure in the boat to accept the free standing rig in the small sized boat you envision. And it only gets more complicated if you want a rotating wing mast.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Windmills have brakes that deploy to keep them from tearing themselves apart if the wind blows too hard, wing masts don't have brakes, only breaks :) 
Be interesting to see what he comes up with.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, lakepee said:

Designing the structure of the free standing rig is not the issue. The issue is designing the structure in the boat to accept the free standing rig in the small sized boat you envision. And it only gets more complicated if you want a rotating wing mast.

Go see how its done on a wyliecat 30 (non rotating with wishbone boom but no mast stays).  Haven't seen it myself, but it can be done.  What concerns me as much is the support for the ama sticking up in the air...seems you'd have to beef up the beams and plan for some additional flex.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So I had similar idea 15 years ago, built a 21' tri, well, originally a 19' airbag boat, now a 21' tri. I also used an unstayed cat rig with a partners support. It worked but I found the changes in apparent wind were too extreme, this rig worked fine for a monohull dinghy like a Finn but a multi speeds up too fast, it helps to have a more tuneable powerful rig. It also allows you to use a much lighter tube. With modern synthetic rigging the weight and aero drag is minimal. I didn't like sailing by the lee, the big advantage, but it was easier to rig and unrig. Now I will eventually change to a stayed rig, maybe just stump up the tube (again) or raise the step.

What I'd really like to try would be a double sided main with a masthead stay and a frac jib like the new mini transat style. Then you can set a reacher and sail deep and fast without dropping too much in the troughs. But it is a handy size to launch and solo, hard to get the volume for others and stores though, gets a bit wet due low freeboard. Helps to be closer to 25', 19' tended to pitchpole with the mast forward for balance. My original B/L was 1.5:19, now it's 1.5:21. I think 1:18 is good. I also overbuilt as I had no plans.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/5/2020 at 1:07 PM, mundt said:

Freestanding mast=nonstarter

This (below) might prove amusing, then, or just annoying.  
 

Anyway, Nigel Irens’ thoughts on unstayed masts.  At the end of the article he starts presenting a trimaran he's designing with an unstayed mast, and his reasons for it- food for thought, at any rate-

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_SflcQYbAR4ZmUzNWU4NDAtYzk3YS00OTllLTg2M2YtNWM1ZTBkM2U0ZjNj/edit?hl=en

Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Amati said:

This (below) might prove amusing, then, or just annoying.  
 

Anyway, Nigel Irens’ thoughts on unstayed masts.  At the end of the article he starts presenting a trimaran he's designing with an unstayed mast, and his reasons for it- food for thought, at any rate-

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_SflcQYbAR4ZmUzNWU4NDAtYzk3YS00OTllLTg2M2YtNWM1ZTBkM2U0ZjNj/edit?hl=en

At the end it was amusing.  Imagine in a blow releasing the mainsheet completely so the boom goes to the bow to depower enough so you can reef.   Be happy to watch the video...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Vantage (Aston Martin fan?), what type? Umm, well it was inspired by Polynesian canoes (in terms of B/L), beach cats (rocker), and Moths, used what are called surfskis as templates, then added some bits like a carbon/glass tube racks/beams. Used a beach cat rudder, too heavy, would like to switch to a 14'er foiled rudder once I finish rebuilding the house. Started out trying to use Moth style bags for capsize prevention but that was a bit tricky so am about to build some Tornado inspired floats, again once I have the time. I have some pics but have difficulty uploading here, probably due to my incapacity. Not many, didn't have a caddy or support team filming, just soloed up to Diamond Head a few times before deciding to lengthen it. The pitchpoling, as noted, was an issue so glued on another 2'. So a bit of a mutt.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Since racing is somewhat irrelevant, howzabout a simple round carbon tube for a mast?  Sure, rotating masts are nice, efficient, give you something to mess about with but in the end, they also create many problems. I actually really like the looks of the rig on that new ufo dinghy from the fp.  Stick that rig on a small tri and you might really have something.  Or maybe just buy the whole dinghy for under 5 k.  Looks pretty damn fun. Then you get to actually go sailing. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Fat Point Jack said:

That does look like a good senior sailor.  Have to have a really deep launch ramp unless you articulate the amas up and out before launch.  Might have that unstayed mast someone was looking for in another thread.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, mpenman said:

I'm curious as to why know one has mentioned this tri. I'm slightly biased, but this boat sails really, really well.

 

https://chriswhitedesigns.com/discovery-21

I'm sure it does.  But for the same price you could have gotten an F22 that has an actual cabin.  63K US$

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, MultiThom said:

At the end it was amusing.  Imagine in a blow releasing the mainsheet completely so the boom goes to the bow to depower enough so you can reef.   Be happy to watch the video...

Good point but it would probably give you a chance to turn the bow into the wind and bring the boom back within reach before you turtle, as happens with three point stayed masts when the main gets stuck against the lee stay, lifting the stern far enough out of the water so you have no rudder and hang on for dear life, hoping she doesn't go over all the way. Been there, done that. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Amati said:

Anyway, Nigel Irens’ thoughts on unstayed masts.  At the end of the article he starts presenting a trimaran he's designing with an unstayed mast, and his reasons for it- food for thought, at any rate-

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B_SflcQYbAR4ZmUzNWU4NDAtYzk3YS00OTllLTg2M2YtNWM1ZTBkM2U0ZjNj/edit?hl=en

Thanks Amati, good link and a great article, Nigel Irens knows what he's talking about, and it makes me (almost) go back to considering round instead of wing profile. But then I just read the article by Phil Stegall about his OSTAR in SEBAGO, and the catenary ellipse mast  design by Adrian Thompson... more R&D needed! Here's that link: https://www.sailingworld.com/story/racing/voices-heard-and-visions-of-trimarans-dancing/

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MultiThom said:

I'm sure it does.  But for the same price you could have gotten an F22 that has an actual cabin.  63K US$

Chris White's discovery 21 is a nice looking craft but besides the cost, it's similar to the Multi23 and probably equally wet. plus you can't fold it for sitting in a marina slip.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, dragontri said:

The hazards of cutting and pasting!  :lol:  but as long as I’m here, by some weird coincidence I wound up talking to Stegall (!) and Phil was talking about the sudden and violent accelerations and decelerations of Sebago.  This was many moons ago.  
 

back to finding the sail world article!

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/26/2020 at 7:48 PM, MultiThom said:

Go see how its done on a wyliecat 30 (non rotating with wishbone boom but no mast stays).  Haven't seen it myself, but it can be done.  What concerns me as much is the support for the ama sticking up in the air...seems you'd have to beef up the beams and plan for some additional flex.

I remember seeing the Wylies on SF Bay and thinking how perfect they'd be if they didn't heel and drag a ton+ of lead around. The demo video of the three of them is the best illustration of feasibility of my dream boat rig. Thanks for reminding me!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, dragontri said:

I remember seeing the Wylies on SF Bay and thinking how perfect they'd be if they didn't heel and drag a ton+ of lead around. The demo video of the three of them is the best illustration of feasibility of my dream boat rig. Thanks for reminding me!

They are good reaching boats (cat rigged-no jib).  They don't point well (like tris), but they actually don't have a lot of lead.  Truth, they aren't multihulls, but would satisfy a lot of the needs foraging boomers :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MultiThom said:

They are good reaching boats (cat rigged-no jib).  They don't point well (like tris), but they actually don't have a lot of lead.  Truth, they aren't multihulls, but would satisfy a lot of the needs foraging boomers :)

Thanks! I guess I'll have to live with my self-inflicted foraging boomer thing forever.:D You're right, they're  nice sailing vessels but with 3050 lbs of ballast they're not for this aging boomer!

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, dragontri said:

Thanks! I guess I'll have to live with my self-inflicted foraging boomer thing forever.:D You're right, they're  nice sailing vessels but with 3050 lbs of ballast they're not for this aging boomer!

Understood, I own a multihull myself and prefer to trailer sail.  But there are lots of times when I'm raising the mast and getting ready that I wished I had a boat in a slip that could be single handed.  It's not like we aging boomers go out in 25 kt winds often for fun, and a well ballasted monohull will be quicker to weather than most small tris in moderate breeze.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Understood, I own a multihull myself and prefer to trailer sail.  But there are lots of times when I'm raising the mast and getting ready that I wished I had a boat in a slip that could be single handed.  It's not like we aging boomers go out in 25 kt winds often for fun, and a well ballasted monohull will be quicker to weather than most small tris in moderate breeze.

This is more drift, but I really thought the Wylie 17 would do that, but they couldn’t seem to decide on keel/no keel, and the keel they did have apparently didn’t make it self righting.  But something like a skinny 17’ monohull with enough lead to be self righting, and depth for decent upwind performance, keep her in the water with bottom paint, main only unstayed rig, no jib, (off wind assym with launcher :)?), stubby wings so a foraging boomer could sit out a bit and feel a bit athletic, self draining cockpit,  300 pounds all up.  I keep doodling a kind of an 18’ Int. 110 with a Finn mast, or a MegaByte mast but that doesn’t have a spinnaker.  Maybe a little shorter without an assym?  Going for a 3:1 sail area main to wetted surface (or greater might take care of that...) Kind of like a bigger Class B or Viola sailing canoe with an unstayed rig and an effective self righting keel.  Might need to be a bit bigger for rougher water?  
 

Viola sailing canoe: (Micheal Storer design)
 


 

 

A2E58FEC-7AD1-4F3A-8FBF-2B82B1BF911B.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/29/2020 at 11:33 AM, dragontri said:

Thanks Amati, good link and a great article, Nigel Irens knows what he's talking about, and it makes me (almost) go back to considering round instead of wing profile. But then I just read the article by Phil Stegall about his OSTAR in SEBAGO, and the catenary ellipse mast  design by Adrian Thompson... more R&D needed! Here's that link: https://www.sailingworld.com/story/racing/voices-heard-and-visions-of-trimarans-dancing/

BTW, thanks for the Sebago article.  Sebago always seemed to be a great argument for a restricted sail area multihull class, like the early Scandinavian meter boats (without the rule beating  unlimited overlapping jibs:D), the IC, Moth, NS14 and some of the German Lakeboat classes between the great wars. An any multihull welcome event(s) to avoid the Victor T sort of thing with the C class: Cat,s, Tris, Quads, Proas, Outriggers sort of thing.  Even monos- what the hell? No lower wind limits.  No restrictions on length or width, just sail area.  R2AK? :lol:  Too complex, I bet....

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/29/2020 at 2:38 PM, dragontri said:

Chris White's discovery 21 is a nice looking craft but besides the cost, it's similar to the Multi23 and probably equally wet. plus you can't fold it for sitting in a marina slip.

It does fold. I think that the amas go up. Original poster said nothing about price. The price is a boat built out of the ACC yard. Totally different quality than an f27 outta Taiwan. Not even comparable. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, mpenman said:

It does fold. I think that the amas go up. Original poster said nothing about price. The price is a boat built out of the ACC yard. Totally different quality than an f27 outta Taiwan. Not even comparable. 

 

The F-27 was all built @ Corsair Marine in San Diego.  The build quality was very high, which contributed to, not only it's enormous popularity for the last 35 years, but also to it's induction into the American Sailboat Hall of fame.

Don't know where you got your erroneous info, but you were correct in your statement "Not even comparable".  Albeit in the inverse of what you intended.

Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, oldsurfer said:

Sixty thousand dollars? For that kind of money I might even sell you my little tri!

Yes, that's crazy. 60k will almost get you an older F-31today.

Not bashing Chris White or the Discovery 21 but.......Hmm. Let's see.  An F-31 or a Discovery 21??

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mpenman said:

It does fold. I think that the amas go up. Original poster said nothing about price. The price is a boat built out of the ACC yard. Totally different quality than an f27 outta Taiwan. Not even comparable. 

Folds by lifting the amas up and I don't think it's possible to do it on the water to fit into a normal sized slip.  To be fair, the Discovery 21 for 63K is all carbon which adds cost and speed on the water.  Meant to be sailed from the cockpit and not the amas according to the literature I read. Might work foraging boomer$ with buck$.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry for not being clear, I do understand that the Discovery folds, but the amas go on top of the main hull, so keeping it in a marina in the water that way (=folded) is probably not a good idea, I can't figure how that would have any stability. Or be usable.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll be the controversy in the topic then. Good point on the folding amas not being stable in that position, but you also don't have to paint them with bottom paint either.

How much would it cost to build a 27 in San Diego today in carbon? Not knocking corsair boats, had a 24, loved it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, mpenman said:

How much would it cost to build a 27 in San Diego today in carbon? Not knocking corsair boats, had a 24, loved it.

A good idea would be to look at what the new Corsair 880 costs in fiberglass and built in Vietnam.  I think it is around 150K.  Built in the USA and out of carbon, likely double that.   It looks to be a very nicely done boat.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, mundt said:

I'm thinking a Pulse is pretty damn close to getting the job done. Any reason why not?

Only thing wrong with a Pulse is its price and performance sucks in moderate to light breeze according to owners (like the F242 did).  Once the wind is in the mid to upper teens it would work, but foraging boomers probably won''t care for going out in a lot of wind (I certainly don't and I'm in the aging boomer category).  Hard to plunk down 50K and go for a sail and be passed by a 30 foot monohull costing 7K.  Just not much fun.  Sure, fun to pass that 30 footer when the breeze is big but I think boomers want value for their money (I certainly do).  

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MultiThom said:

Only thing wrong with a Pulse is its price and performance sucks in moderate to light breeze according to owners (like the F242 did).  Once the wind is in the mid to upper teens it would work, but foraging boomers probably won''t care for going out in a lot of wind (I certainly don't and I'm in the aging boomer category).  Hard to plunk down 50K and go for a sail and be passed by a 30 foot monohull costing 7K.  Just not much fun.  Sure, fun to pass that 30 footer when the breeze is big but I think boomers want value for their money (I certainly do).  

Maybe a 750 Sport.  They are light wind flyers.  Around $25-$30k

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're interested in a D21 but the price is too much you might keep an eye out for a used D20. The median price over the past few years is well under $20k:

https://www.sailingtexas.com/cboats99d.html

They don't fold on the water, of course. They fold fine on the trailer after you get them set up right. Seems like a very good light air boat, but we haven't managed to run into a Pulse in the wild yet to make sure :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KONeill said:

If you're interested in a D21 but the price is too much you might keep an eye out for a used D20. The median price over the past few years is well under $20k:

https://www.sailingtexas.com/cboats99d.html

They don't fold on the water, of course. They fold fine on the trailer after you get them set up right. Seems like a very good light air boat, but we haven't managed to run into a Pulse in the wild yet to make sure :)

Asking $7,500 OBO

Chris White Discovery 20 Trimaran, 2005

Built in 2005 using West Systems epoxy and fiberglass over cold molded Okume.

picdiscovery20103a.jpg

picdiscovery20103g.jpg

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I am experimenting with 3 Supercat hulls and would like to add a "modern" rig to create a tri that can carry 2+ people. Aluminum crossbeams might require water stays but a built up arched composite cross structure could be stiffer and clear the wave tops. Jim Gallant removed the foils from his mini-hydroptere and I found NACRA 5.2 hulls so he could convert to a beach cat trimaran for the light winds we have in Puget Sound region in the summer months. Frankenboats are fun!

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, KONeill said:

That one is not for sale any more, it's in my driveway

Well done

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, i just sold my Nacra so I'm down to one boat, the L7. I might make a serious effort to sell it in the next several months but then I wouldn't have a boat!  Unacceptable!  I will say that the L7 would be very difficult to replace, it fills its niche quite nicely.  Doing things that the smaller tris like the Pulse can't as well as being much lighter and faster than an F24 (though less interior).  The 750 mk 2 is pretty nice. Though Multithom says the Pulse is slow in the light unless you're racing in a mixed fleet, who cares?  

Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, mundt said:

 I will say that the L7 would be very difficult to replace, it fills its niche quite nicely. 

True.  To get better performance and accommodations you'd have to go up to an F28R or a new 880.  Mike did a good job with the L7.   Why sell it, what are its weaknesses?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

They are good reaching boats (cat rigged-no jib).  They don't point well (like tris), but they actually don't have a lot of lead.  Truth, they aren't multihulls, but would satisfy a lot of the needs foraging boomers :)

Um....  they are very good all around boats that point very well (only boat to win 3x Singlehanded Farallones).  They have proven themselves in windward/leward, reaching and offshore.  Upwind when a puff hits the tapered tip spills off and then then powers back up in the luff.  Trust me I've watched this on their stern for hours.  3000lbs lead on a 5500-5800lbs boat isn't "don't have a lot of lead".  

Link to post
Share on other sites

What about the Sting 600 by Len Surtees?

An open day sailing 6m trimaran that can be easily trailered and sailed either as the standard Sport Version or upgraded to the foiling version.

It has detachable bench seating for sitting up, out, high and comfortably adding righting moment but real comfort for older / less mobile sailors - I'm less mobile than I used to be.

www.sting600.net

He's 70+ and sailing it with mates the same age.

I'm in the process of buying the Sting #1 and thetooling etc to take the Sport and Foiling projects forward under the banner Adventure Trimarans and he is going to be developing a further Mini Cruiser version a bit more like an Astus 20.5/Pulse with small cuddy to effectively make 3 models.

It should be arriving in the UK by end of March and the plan is to get out thrashing it as soon as the lockdown lifts and get posting a load of videos so everyone can see what it is really about.

I want to get some adventure back in my life and this seems like the perfect way to do it for me and possibly others too!

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Vantage475T said:

What about the Sting 600 by Len Surtees?

An open day sailing 6m trimaran that can be easily trailered and sailed either as the standard Sport Version or upgraded to the foiling version.

It has detachable bench seating for sitting up, out, high and comfortably adding righting moment but real comfort for older / less mobile sailors - I'm less mobile than I used to be.

www.sting600.net

He's 70+ and sailing it with mates the same age.

I'm in the process of buying the Sting #1 and thetooling etc to take the Sport and Foiling projects forward under the banner Adventure Trimarans and he is going to be developing a further Mini Cruiser version a bit more like an Astus 20.5/Pulse with small cuddy to effectively make 3 models.

It should be arriving in the UK by end of March and the plan is to get out thrashing it as soon as the lockdown lifts and get posting a load of videos so everyone can see what it is really about.

I want to get some adventure back in my life and this seems like the perfect way to do it for me and possibly others too!

Hahahahaha

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/5/2021 at 12:56 PM, MultiThom said:

Only thing wrong with a Pulse is its price and performance sucks in moderate to light breeze according to owners (like the F242 did).  Once the wind is in the mid to upper teens it would work, but foraging boomers probably won''t care for going out in a lot of wind (I certainly don't and I'm in the aging boomer category).  Hard to plunk down 50K and go for a sail and be passed by a 30 foot monohull costing 7K.  Just not much fun.  Sure, fun to pass that 30 footer when the breeze is big but I think boomers want value for their money (I certainly do).  

 

Edited by Tomfl
trying to delete
Link to post
Share on other sites

There is no such thing as a boat that excels in all conditions. To gain in one realm you give up something in another. Decide what you want to do and choose the boat that performs there.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There have been a few comments on free standing wing masts for my aging foraging trimaran. So I figured, why not dig in a bit on this subject while we're all hunkered down and have lots of time to read and respond, so here it goes: I'll start off with a quote from my friend and naval architect Eric Sponberg:

Begin quote: "The rating rules say the wires have to be there, so designers put them in. If you don’t have wires, you cannot race. If that is how the racing fleet goes, so goes the rest of the boating market—cruising boats as well as racing boats. It is a very artificial feature of sailboat design that has absolutely nothing to do with aerodynamics. C.A. Marchaj, again in his book Aero-Hydrodynamics of Sailing, bemoans this state of affairs: Certainly the rating rules have in this respect a more profound effect on the shape of sails than the aerodynamic requirements or wind in all its moods. The penalty incurred for example by the sail measurement system on the width of the headboard of the mainsail or length of its top batten is so high that it virtually precludes any attempt to improve the aerodynamic effectiveness of the modern tall rig. Those curious prohibitions, which after years of enforcement became part of sailing tradition, effectively discouraged ocean racing people from making experiments with unorthodox rigs which could have led to the development of less tall but more efficient rigs. So triangular rigs prevail. It takes a bit of courage, I guess, to ask the question: “Why do we do this?” Well, sailors and designers are insanely conservative people. There is no other explanation. The idea of a mast without wires is so foreign to most people that they just cannot fathom how a sailboat mast can stand up all by itself without something to hold it up. Hmmm. Have you ever seen a tree? How about a flagpole? What about those airplanes I mentioned, you know, the ones that got rid of the wires holding the wings on, way back in the 1920s? Today, a Boeing 747 airliner at take-off weighs 875,000 pounds, carries 524 passengers, flies at 567 miles per hour more than 7 miles above the earth, and it does not have any wires holding the wings on!!!! I have been designing free-standing masts for over 30 years, so I think I can speak from some relevant experience. From my standpoint, the single biggest reason why people do not like free-standing masts is (are you ready??):..." End quote.

You'll have to go to the link to read the rest of the article and while you're there, check out some of the other content, as well as the article in PBB magazine, see other link. 

https://www.ericwsponberg.com/wp-content/uploads/state-of-the-art-on-free-standing-masts.pdf

https://www.ericwsponberg.com/wp-content/uploads/Project-Amazon-PBB.pdf

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yah, it can be done on a trimaran since it can be done on monohulls (e.g., wylicats).  But does any other aging boomer want a free standing mast on their boat while they piddle around in their favorite puddle.   Trimarans (in general) don't point very well compared to monohulls mostly because they have more leeway being much lighter.  Cat rigs don't point as well as bermuda rigs some of which is because they don't have a jib.   Put a cat rig (free standing mast) on a trimaran and I think it will point poorly, but feel free to go ahead and do it and report back.   Get a mast and wishboom from a wyliecat 17 and put it on a  5 meter trimaran.  

I think there have been boats with free standing rigs that also have little jibs and even fly spinnakers.  Not many are still in production.  I had a free standing rig on my Triak trimaran and even fitted a jib (free flying necessarily).  Jib luff sagged very badly to leeward making it pretty much useless.  OTOH, I did fly an asymspin from the masthead very nicely.  So unless you are going to fit backstays to the free standing rig, you aren't going to get much use out of a jib. Since you will need the backstays, might as well hang them outboard on the end of the aft aka---heck, might as well call it a shroud.

I'm still leery, as well, with the lack of shrouds effect will have on the ama that is sticking up in the air.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 months later...

Couple updates.comments....

Windrider is long out of the boat business. Selling clothing. Not even mentioning boats or parts. Someone must know...something? Likely they might sell the designs and molds? Unless they owe big bucks to the factory.....

Comment about mooring a tri - I moored my Sprint 750 for 7 years with no problems - and in rough water (bay in RI). I had no problems with the mooring balls or sail rigging or anything else. Take that for what it cost ya!

As far as that Sting and other new boats- as we have learned the hard way, a boat year is maybe 4 years and.or never. What are the odds of a production boat like that being for sale in 2021 (and someone being able to get one easily, etc.)?

So the "boomer boats" are still as they were - a used wind rider at this point or used something else....unless one had a bunch of bitcoin and wants to get a Tesla and a Pulse w some of the profits. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

As far as that Sting and other new boats- as we have learned the hard way, a boat year is maybe 4 years and.or never. What are the odds of a production boat like that being for sale in 2021 (and someone being able to get one easily, etc.)?

The Adventure 600 (previously Sting 600) unfortunately missed a connection in Malysia but thankfully avoided the suez fiasco and is currently sailing up the coast of Portugal to London.

I should be on final testing / thrashing mid-late April here in the Solent in the UK.

Plans for the Sport model (the non-foiling vesion) are available and will be live on the website once we have the boat functional here and put it live.

Work is progressing on the Coastal Cruiser version which uses the same beams and floats just a different main hull so it is more like a Pulse or Astus 20.5.

Couple of pics: folded for trailering, unfolded and from first proper sail before bench seats mods finalised.

I'm looking at some potential build options and will see what we can come up with.

I will be putting out a lot of info including videos as we test and develop it further.

We're looking forward to a great summer now with lockdown lifting shortly!

folded out and rear foil deployed-cropped.jpg

folded for trailering-small.jpg

1147556401_adventure600mainpicture-small.jpg

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Russell Brown said:

I quite like that boat. Who designed it? 

Can only hope it points better than a Windrider.  It's planned displacement is really light so it (as seen in the sea trial) can move with very little wind.  I had a similar boat (Triak) but it could not carry passengers and was limited to foot pedal steering.  While you could fit a jib on it, with no backstay the jib luff was never tight enough so you are better off sailing just mainsail to weather.  This one appears to do the jib hoist from the stern which might help that (but will compress the mast through the bottom if you are not paying attention).  I don't know why the boom is needed since the mainsail reefs by rolling it around the mast.  Speaking of which, making a sail for it so it works "OK" while reefed is not easy.  On the triak with the as supplied mainsail, reefing meant you went from pointing poorly to wondering if you can make it upwind at all.  Triak was frustrating stuck in the center since you couldn't get outboard to balance the sail going to weather.  This one might work better for that with tiller steering.  

Might see 10-12 kts with spin and a lot of wind.  That's pretty much what the Triak did with similar weights, length and SA.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's one video showing triak speeds.  That close to the water, you feel like you are going faster than what the speedo says.  I ended up putting bigger floats on the triak eventually since I had to reef most ever outing and then pointing suffered.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

mundt,

Out of interest (and it will no doubt stir up a lot of passion amongst devotees), why is the Weta "vastly superior" to most of the boats on here?

Most boats seem to suit some specific requirements and not other specific requirements.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Graham Byrnes sailed on a Texas 200 I did in my proa a few years ago. Nice guy, nice boats. I helped build one of his CS20 designs, it's a good boat. Big open centerboard sharpie type thing with a cat ketch rig. It's got a clever stitch-up origami bow that makes a nicer shape than you usually see on stitch and glue boats.

On the T200 he sailed a hopped up version with freestanding carbon masts and a little cabin. It was very quick downwind. To windward my proa was faster, but not by much and it was mostly a downwind trip :)

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Adventure Trimarans said:

mundt,

Out of interest (and it will no doubt stir up a lot of passion amongst devotees), why is the Weta "vastly superior" to most of the boats on here?

Most boats seem to suit some specific requirements and not other specific requirements.

Weta is a good sailing machine.  It points pretty good for a trimaran, it is fast for its length.  The sailplan is well sorted out.  It is easy to trailer.  Drawbacks are few, but for me, the biggest drawback is how wet the ride is.  Watch the last 7 minutes or so of this to see me get firehosed.  

A weta is a sailboat meant for fun sailing...has no other purpose.  My current boat is of similar genre although it pretends to have a cabin.  But my current boat is a much dryer ride which is why I don't have a weta.  Aging boomers (topic title) typically aren't "balls to the wall" sailors anymore (at least I'm not) and appreciate creature comforts while we have our little adventures.  We also have more money to spend on toys, so Weta doesn't fit the mold of a trimaran daysailor for aging boomers.  Fboats or Corsairs are probably the best fit for the topic title--although a freestanding mast is not on any of them.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, you will get wet on a Weta but for its size it is really well done and can handle itself in a wide range of conditions. To me the drawback to the F-boats is their size and weight when out of the water.  Same thing for my L7, once sailing it's easy peezy but moving it around on land and at the dock by myself is a beatdown. How bout the Pulse?  I've heard it isn't super fast but it would seem to meet the parameters pretty well.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

A Pulse is a nice boat that meets most criteria.  Easy to trailer, easy to set up, fast enough except in lighter breezes where owners say that they stick to the water, only problem being it is built by Corsair so it is heavy for its size and expensive for what you get.  Of course, you could look at those drawbacks and say it is built by Corsair so it is durable and high quality so you have to pay more.   

As an aging boomer, my wants in a boat are:

  • Light so I can trailer with an SUV
  • Easy to single hand but can take a couple passengers
  • Points well (needed where I sail)
  • Quick to get into the water from trailer
  • Not more than $100K new.
  • Fast enough (subjective criteria, but I have to sail against a 3 kt current occasionally so VMG to weather has to be at least 3 kts in 12 kt wind).
  • Safe (ie, doesn't turtle in a gust).

YMMV

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, MultiThom said:

As an aging boomer, my wants in a boat are:

  • Light so I can trailer with an SUV
  • 1500 lbs with the boat, motor and trailer
  • Easy to single hand but can take a couple passengers
  • Yes
  • Points well (needed where I sail)
  • Points like a bird dog
  • Quick to get into the water from trailer
  • Takes between 1 & 2 hours to set up on the trailer for launch
  • Not more than $100K new.
  • Don't temp me
  • Fast enough (subjective criteria, but I have to sail against a 3 kt current occasionally so VMG to weather has to be at least 3 kts in 12 kt wind).
  • More upwind sail area than a Corsair 24 MK II and 900 lbs lighter than a Corsair 24 MK II with 200% buoyancy in the amas.
  • Safe (ie, doesn't turtle in a gust).
  • Never cleat the main or jib sheets
  • She's 20 years old and sailed hard by the best with no problems whatsoever and still looks brand new.
  • Humdinger offers performance not often seen in a trimaran this size. It is light because of its minimal volume and careful construction. Much weight savings come from the connective structure. The crossarms on this boat are supported by wires (sea stays), and slide into molded sleeves in the main hull and outrigger hulls. It does not fold like some trailerable trimarans, but all four crossarms weigh only 65 pounds.The outrigger hulls weigh 105 lbs each. The weight (950 lbs) is everything including motor. This boat will “break free” much sooner than most trailerable trimarans, such as something like a Farrier trimaran, and seems to go upwind quite a bit better than even a larger tri. The central cockpit is comfortable, secure, and much quieter than an aft cockpit. It also puts the weight of the crew near the center of the boat.

  • No surprise that Russell knocked it out of the ballpark with this trimaran

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Ol'surfer is bragging about how his 25' tri is only 950 lbs all up. It's not indestructible though, even if it did survive a year of being sailed by Paul Bieker, a known lead foot.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've sailed a Weta a couple of times and the main reasons I didn't go for it were

  • it seemed a bit cramped for 2 people especially to carry overnight gear for longer trips and to sleep on
  • I felt with 2 people (even with no gear) the performance really suffered so with gear as well I would think it would really struggle

I know it is not really designed for that scenario and to me it appears the ideal small single hander. As I really wanted to retain good performance with either 2 people plus gear or easy single handing I needed to scale up a bit.

However, the ease of transport and set up certainly can't be beaten - it is very well thought through for what it is designed to do.

Hence me going up to 6m which is the largest size to retain some easy ability to move on road / at the marina but has a lot more capability to carry 2 people plus some kit or easily single hand it.

Also, being able to build a new 6m tri for the same cost as a new Weta is quite nice!

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Adventure Trimarans said:

 

Also, being able to build a new 6m tri for the same cost as a new Weta is quite nice!

 

It is nice if you can manage it.  Corsair's 6m boat turns out to be about 3/4 ton in actual displacement.  My 5.8 meter boat is shy of half a ton - despite manufacturer claiming 200 pounds lighter (Humdinger is not a production boat, but still amazing that it was made so light).  Cost as well as weight seems to inflate when going from prototype to manufacture (look at F22s for example).  And Viet or China manufacture requires CONSTANT supervision otherwise you will get crap to sell.  You probably won't see more SeaRails because of this.  You already can't see more Triaks because of this.  But I do hope you can do it.   This thread notwithstanding, there really isn't much of a market.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thom, yes it is certainly a small market but with a lot more small trimaran sailing activity I am sure we can generate some interest here in the UK.

People need to see what they can actually do and how easy they are to appreciate there is a great alternative to floating around at glacial speeds on mono's.

If we can sell a one or two a year is fine by me - it will more than subsidise my hobby business!

Also, that build price was for us in ply / glass / epoxy - it will be interesting to see what we can do when it comes to a foam / glass / epoxy version.

I'll do a break down of the weight of the A600 in a couple of weeks time, component by component to get an accurate view of where we stand on weight overall and I'll then be doing a review of potential weight savings for the home build ply/epoxy/glass version.

We can then get looking at the foam/glass/epoxy build once happy with the shapes we have as we're likely to have some updates after the next round of testing. I'm particularly thinking about a bit more freeboard and volume on the main hull to help deal with our (in)famous Solent chop.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Adventure Trimarans said:

 

People need to see what they can actually do and how easy they are to appreciate there is a great alternative to floating around at glacial speeds on mono's.

 

Point is, people have seen what they can do.  The America's Cup races have been done on multihulls for more than a decade but--folks have gone back to one hull this year; The olympics used to have a multihull class, then they got booted (they might be back, I haven't paid attention).  The consensus for yachties is still that strange folks sail those strange machines.  If you want to go fast you can do it just as easily on a Melges 24 as a Corsair 24.  But you can't single hand a Melges 24 (at least not competitively).  Multihulls will always have a small niche, but ornery free thinking out of the box folks are few and likely to remain that way.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some of it could be perception.

I can buy a 14ft WETA for $20k or I can get some old tub (pick a length from 30ft -> 14ft) for $4k or less.

Since smaller production multihulls are new they are priced as such and are competing in a market where used old monos are very cheap. Fro example a used Pulse is over $35k at the cheapest here and has been for advertised for over 6 months.

I ended up building my own tri as I could not afford a WETA and did not want a mono any longer.

Edited by OldmateFred
gramma ;)
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MultiThom said:

Point is, people have seen what they can do.  The America's Cup races have been done on multihulls for more than a decade but--folks have gone back to one hull this year; The olympics used to have a multihull class, then they got booted (they might be back, I haven't paid attention).  The consensus for yachties is still that strange folks sail those strange machines.  If you want to go fast you can do it just as easily on a Melges 24 as a Corsair 24.  But you can't single hand a Melges 24 (at least not competitively).  Multihulls will always have a small niche, but ornery free thinking out of the box folks are few and likely to remain that way.  

I'm 100% with mthom here. I have had dozens of sailors come check the Weta and comment how nice and fast and cool and practical it is, yet only one ever considered getting one and the rest went back to their 80's rotten deck 4ktsb while complaining how difficult it is to get crew these days.

 A lifelong sailor I know once said,  talking about multihulls, "it's a different sport".

Link to post
Share on other sites

Tim Clissold designed the Weta. He has some nice designs in the 20 to 26' ramge. I like the TC666. A little too much accommodation for me but a cross between his 601, 627 and the 666 would be worth considering. A 22' with a small cabin, minimalist comforts, light and fast. Good for local racing and daysailing. Most of his boats are boomless but I prefer a boom. A place for the lady and me to sit below out of weather now and then and an optional head. 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

How about this one?

I have a Triton Tandem Sailing Trimaran available with trailer. Trailer has brand new tires on it. I inherited it. It needs some work but all in all it’s in good condition. All the rigging is there. Sail needs work or replaced. Motor is included but unknown if it works. Price is as is. Google Triton Tandem Sailing Trimaran for any additional info/specs about the boat. Any other questions, don’t hesitate to text me.

https://sarasota.craigslist.org/boa/d/sarasota-triton-tandem-sailing-trimaran/7289352411.html

triton.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites