ePropulsion Pod Drive

[Bull City 2,594]

3 hours ago, Illegal Smile said:

You can see how the Epropulsion outboard's aft end won't fit because of the transom overhang. 

 

Are you able to tilt the lower end of the OB out of the water? Although, I guess long-term immersion isn't a concern for you.

[Illegal Smile 68]

16 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Are you able to tilt the lower end of the OB out of the water? Although, I guess long-term immersion isn't a concern for you.

I am! The cut up the transom allows the current gas outboard to lift and lock in the raised position to reduce drag when sailing.

[allweather 70]

4 hours ago, Illegal Smile said:

You can see how the Epropulsion outboard's aft end won't fit because of the transom overhang. 

Hm, your boat looks quite a bit lighter than Bull's 1,5t minimum. How much power do you reckon you "need?"

Because given the space you've shown and what seems like not a strict need for more than 1-2kW? you have quite a bit more in options. Well, depends on what you're goal is really.

[Illegal Smile 68]

6 minutes ago, allweather said:

Hm, your boat looks quite a bit lighter than Bull's 1,5t minimum. How much power do you reckon you "need?"

Because given the space you've shown and what seems like not a strict need for more than 1-2kW? you have quite a bit more in options. Well, depends on what you're goal is really.

It is much lighter. I estimate 650 lbs when loaded for camp cruising.

The issue is range anxiety. I use the boat much more for distance than as a daysailer. The few weeks ago I anchored across the Neuse River for the night, and woke up to flat calm, 7 nm back to the ramp at Oriental. I have oars but that's a long row in a boat not really built for it. I need 10 miles of range at the very least, although not necessarily at hull speed. 

I'm thinking the Pod drive gives me the option to have a larger battery, or a couple of batteries. 

 

[TwoLegged 2,238]

40 minutes ago, Illegal Smile said:

The issue is range anxiety. I use the boat much more for distance than as a daysailer. The few weeks ago I anchored across the Neuse River for the night, and woke up to flat calm, 7 nm back to the ramp at Oriental. I have oars but that's a long row in a boat not really built for it. I need 10 miles of range at the very least, although not necessarily at hull speed. 

I'm thinking the Pod drive gives me the option to have a larger battery, or a couple of batteries. 

Can't you use a biggish external lithium battery with an outboard, or even with a biggish trolling motor?  That would be much more efficient than an oversized pod, and a lot cheaper

[allweather 70]

56 minutes ago, Illegal Smile said:

I estimate 650 lbs when loaded for camp cruising.

The issue is range anxiety.

Alright then. Looking how you don't need high speed and the boat is about a third and a bit of the h-boat let me draw the comparison to the smaller trolling motor I use compared to Bull's much more capable pod.

My datasheet is for 120lbs thrust and uses about 1,2kW to drive the h-boat at 4kn and can do so four or five hours with my 24V 230Ah lifepo4 battery. Basically over fifteen miles of range.

You should be able to use an off the shelf pod to great effect(very small storage size) and get a battery to fit your range requirements. Either ready to use ones, or DIY your own in a waterproof box.

[Bull City 2,594]

37 minutes ago, Illegal Smile said:

It is much lighter. I estimate 650 lbs when loaded for camp cruising.

The issue is range anxiety. I use the boat much more for distance than as a daysailer. The few weeks ago I anchored across the Neuse River for the night, and woke up to flat calm, 7 nm back to the ramp at Oriental. I have oars but that's a long row in a boat not really built for it. I need 10 miles of range at the very least, although not necessarily at hull speed. 

I'm thinking the Pod drive gives me the option to have a larger battery, or a couple of batteries. 

 

This is from eProp web site for the 1.0 Pod (I have the 3.0) which is rated at 3 HP:

https://0220afca-6e42-4f45-a99f-0362b314126d.filesusr.com/ugd/77b59c_98048f14db60427bbabc7a452c66866d.pdf

The Spirit battery has 1276 Wh. The E40, the LiFePO4 battery they recommend with the 1.0 Pod, has 2048 Wh, so the above ranges would be greater. It weighs 62 lbs.

I have had communication with two people who have a 1.0 Pod. One sails a Sakonnet 23 (2,000 lb.), the other an Alerion 20 (1,900 lbs.). 

[Bull City 2,594]

Today I think TONIC made 40 Watts of regenerated electricity. I sailed TONIC in brisk winds, 12+ knots for about 8 nautical miles, during which we hit 6.25 knots for a few spells. The battery was 95% when we started, and 96% when we finished. For a 4086 Wh battery, I figure that's 40 Watts. 

[weightless 708]

47 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Today I think TONIC made 40 Watts of regenerated electricity. I sailed TONIC in brisk winds, 12+ knots for about 8 nautical miles, during which we hit 6.25 knots for a few spells. The battery was 95% when we started, and 96% when we finished. For a 4086 Wh battery, I figure that's 40 Watts. 

Careful now. That is well over nine and a half nano tonnes of TNT equivalent.

[Bull City 2,594]

Just now, weightless said:

Careful now. That is well over nine and a half nano tons of TNT equivalent.

[Ishmael 10,634]

36 minutes ago, weightless said:

Careful now. That is well over nine and a half nano tonnes of TNT equivalent.

So, roughly equivalent to one Taco Bell fart?

[TwoLegged 2,238]

1 hour ago, Bull City said:

Today I think TONIC made 40 Watts of regenerated electricity. I sailed TONIC in brisk winds, 12+ knots for about 8 nautical miles, during which we hit 6.25 knots for a few spells. The battery was 95% when we started, and 96% when we finished. For a 4086 Wh battery, I figure that's 40 Watts. 

<pedantry>40 watt hours (aka 40wh), not 40 watts.  </pedantry>

But I suspect that with the battery so highly charged, the BMS was dumping most of the regen output.  It would be interesting to repeat the experiment with a battery at 20–40% charge.  I reckon that you should then see much a bigger boost.

 BTW, EV drivers try to keep their batteries in the 20%–80% range, to prolong battery life.

[allweather 70]

11 hours ago, Bull City said:

The battery was 95% when we started, and 96% when we finished.

I feel presumptious asking for clarification... How much did you motor in and out?

Yeah, I agree with TwoLegged. Sounds like the charger not pouring power into a basically full battery regardless of how much you generate. Besides the natural charge acceptance at the upper end.
Yeah, I don't even bother attaching my battery to the grid unless I am below 50% or plan for a long passage.

[Bull City 2,594]

11 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

<pedantry>40 watt hours (aka 40wh), not 40 watts.  </pedantry>

But I suspect that with the battery so highly charged, the BMS was dumping most of the regen output.  It would be interesting to repeat the experiment with a battery at 20–40% charge.  I reckon that you should then see much a bigger boost.

 BTW, EV drivers try to keep their batteries in the 20%–80% range, to prolong battery life.

 

1 hour ago, allweather said:

I feel presumptious asking for clarification... How much did you motor in and out?

Yeah, I agree with TwoLegged. Sounds like the charger not pouring power into a basically full battery regardless of how much you generate. Besides the natural charge acceptance at the upper end.
Yeah, I don't even bother attaching my battery to the grid unless I am below 50% or plan for a long passage.

The motoring in and out was no more than ½ mile in total. It was a windy day, and part of it was into the wind - the extra power was very nice.

The guidance from ePropulsion on battery use, i.e. when to recharge, how low you can go, etc. is non-existent. I'm not very knowledgeable, so advice is nice to get.

 

[allweather 70]

Well, then you may have used a surprising number of watts for motoring as well. Who knows. Will be interesting to see what the hourly numbers are once you're out on the water with a half full battery.

About battery use guidance. Not necessarily unexpected with the E80. They quote 80%cycles (10%-90% charge levels) at around 3000.

Which matches general knowledge on the LiFePo4 batteries. By far not as sensitive as some other lithium chemistries but still store best at 50% charge. In practice the wear is so little that you generally don't have to care.

Going from 20%-80% can increase the numbers of cycles by quite a bit. 5000 and more is not unusual. Running them flat still gets you a thousand or more cycles on most. And important to remember that they don't usually suffer critical existence failure but simply lose capacity and wattage. Now imagine three thousand cycles. That is how many years of sailing already? Even with a 20%(extreme) decrease in range it still should work wonderfully.

[floater 696]

On 10/18/2021 at 8:05 AM, allweather said:

Well, then you may have used a surprising number of watts for motoring as well. Who knows. Will be interesting to see what the hourly numbers are once you're out on the water with a half full battery.

About battery use guidance. Not necessarily unexpected with the E80. They quote 80%cycles (10%-90% charge levels) at around 3000.

Which matches general knowledge on the LiFePo4 batteries. By far not as sensitive as some other lithium chemistries but still store best at 50% charge. In practice the wear is so little that you generally don't have to care.

Going from 20%-80% can increase the numbers of cycles by quite a bit. 5000 and more is not unusual. Running them flat still gets you a thousand or more cycles on most. And important to remember that they don't usually suffer critical existence failure but simply lose capacity and wattage. Now imagine three thousand cycles. That is how many years of sailing already? Even with a 20%(extreme) decrease in range it still should work wonderfully.

so, the batteries might not be the weak link here. I like the idea of an electric drive from the standpoint that it's essentially little or no maintenance, but instead just another electrical appliance on the boat. Turn it on and it just works. I wonder though, if these electric drives will have the expected lifespan of a typical knotmeter - at best. Still, I see it as a complete change - a sea change if you will - A different animal from an inboard diesel altogether.

[allweather 70]

56 minutes ago, floater said:

 I wonder though, if these electric drives will have the expected lifespan of a typical knotmeter - at best.

Well, at least with the trolling motor we know the fishing enthusiasts get a lot of mileage out of them. And those are thousands of testers. And reputable brands like MinnKota sells you spare parts for every bit and piece just like Suzuki does. So repairability can be surprisingly high.

Fixing if its electronics is beyond a layman to be sure. But for the dumb units it seems to happen rarely. Software issues with more intelligent epropulsion and torquedo is a known thing though.(arguably rare, I have little experience but few people nowadays I know of that have issues. As an anecdote)

[Bull City 2,594]

Update:

I sent this reply (in red) to the dealer (Annapolis Hybrid Marine) on 9/23:

1. Highly inaccurate GPS indications (e.g. 8 knots when still)------POD 3.0 evo right? The POD GPS is on the driver, normally it will not able to have the data when the pod is installed inside the boat, if he expose the pod driver to the air and the pod is evo version, it maybe the remote control evo(top mount) software issue, we have a shared this in the newsletter before that the KONT is not correct in the ealier evo batchs;

Remote software update:

Link:https://app.box.com/s/yt5n6vz97qjauzpvo1sg403q5pnabq0h  (new software)

https://app.box.com/s/hc7nqm5y825z6vsnb1i94qwbifh4mjs6   (guidline)

My driver is inside the boat. It is only logical to install it inside the boat. The Km/Hr reading appeared correct on the two occasions I have used the motor on the water. The problems began when I changed the preference to knots. From Mike Wang’s comments, the early batch of top mount evo controls was defective, so this appears to be a warranty issue. In this case, please have a new one shipped to me. I will return the current one upon receipt.

 

Hearing nothing, I sent a follow up on 10/4. Still hearing nothing, I called him on 10/13. He did not have an answer yet, but promised to call the next day. Next day, nothing. On 10/16, I sent an email to ePropulsion "service" summarizing the situation and included the email thread and renewed my "request" for a new controller.

 

The same day, I got this reply:

 

"We have informed the dealer to provide your a new software version top mount control, he will contact you soon, thanks."

 

I think this means that they told AHM to send me a new one. Not surprisingly, I haven't heard from them yet. 

 

When I called the dealer, I asked how he was doing, and he said he "was tearing his hair out" trying to get ready for the Annapolis Boat Show. I always wonder about people who are always making the excuse of being so busy. If they're so f**king busy, hire some help! Anyhow, I told him that I was tearing my hair out too, over the controller that doesn't work properly.

 

[Jim in Halifax 600]

16 hours ago, Bull City said:

...When I called the dealer, I asked how he was doing, and he said he "was tearing his hair out" trying to get ready for the Annapolis Boat Show. I always wonder about people who are always making the excuse of being so busy. If they're so f**king busy, hire some help! Anyhow, I told him that I was tearing my hair out too, over the controller that doesn't work properly.

 

Keep at them Bull! I used to work for an oil company manger whose problem-solving mantra was: "gentle pressure applied relentlessly".

[ProaSailor 674]

16 hours ago, Bull City said:

Still hearing nothing,

Selling defective products is a form of assault.  There's no point in mincing words, ePropulsion is a fucked up company.  Makes the dealer look bad too: Annapolis Hybrid Marine

[Elegua 1,845]

In this case it seems to be assault and battery. 

 

 

I'm sorry for your troubles. I'll see myself out....

[Bull City 2,594]

Yesterday, I emailed ePropulsion Service to thank them for their response, and to tell them that I have not heard from the dealer. Got this today:

"We will contact DAVID and make sure the actions are being done, and also make sure he contact you, thanks."

David may find himself on Xi Jinping's shit list.

2 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Selling defective products is a form of assault.  There's no point in mincing words, ePropulsion is a fucked up company.  Makes the dealer look bad too: Annapolis Hybrid Marine

Proa, I think EP is suffering from success.

• they have had an unexpected surge in sales, and they were not geared up for the service & support demands.
• their reliance on dealers to provide product support may work for higher volume products, like outboards, but not so well for lower volume ones, like pod drives.
• a significant number of end users are not located near a dealer, so support must be provided remotely. You should see their FB page.

I think they are coming around to seeing this, and are making adjustments. They are directing people like me, and those on the FB page to their service email. Presumably, they are making a lot of money and can invest in more product support.

With the exception of this episode, I have been very pleased with the system.

[ProaSailor 674]

22 minutes ago, Bull City said:

they were not geared up for the service & support demands.

Support demands would be a lot less if the product worked properly.

22 minutes ago, Bull City said:

With the exception of this episode, I have been very pleased with the system.

That's good, glad to hear it.  Still, this issue is fundamental, obvious, not unique to you, etc., etc., and it's been going on for way too long.  Looks like they have many different FB pages and an extensive web site so yeah, plenty of money.  Some of it yours.

[floater 696]

21 hours ago, allweather said:

Well, at least with the trolling motor we know the fishing enthusiasts get a lot of mileage out of them. And those are thousands of testers. And reputable brands like MinnKota sells you spare parts for every bit and piece just like Suzuki does. So repairability can be surprisingly high.

Fixing if its electronics is beyond a layman to be sure. But for the dumb units it seems to happen rarely. Software issues with more intelligent epropulsion and torquedo is a known thing though.(arguably rare, I have little experience but few people nowadays I know of that have issues. As an anecdote)

it looks like they need a better process for updating firmware. I guess Bull City doesn't need a new unit, just new firmware. And if the only method they have for that is to ship hardware it seems a bit nuts.

and as for spare parts, that is cool. and after all, knot meters do last for years. But I guess the pov I am adopting here is when out shopping used boats, and it has an electric drive aboard, how do you evaluate it? From the information given about the cycles available on the batteries - the size of the batteries might be worth paying attention to, but apparently their lifespan is really long - perhaps even longer than the boat they are sitting on. and probably longer than the rest of hardware involved.

[TwoLegged 2,238]

5 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Selling defective products is a form of assault.  There's no point in mincing words, ePropulsion is a fucked up company.  Makes the dealer look bad too: Annapolis Hybrid Marine

Proa, I think you are being way too harsh.  This looks like a common set of growth pains for a young company which seems to be expanding rapidly.

[allweather 70]

1 hour ago, floater said:

But I guess the pov I am adopting here is when out shopping used boats, and it has an electric drive aboard,

I had not considered that angle yet.
Sure, anecdotal evidence shows that electronics that haven't died in a few years of previous use won't die in the future unless there is sudden water ingress. But I wouldn't know how to grade everything else about them.
I know brushless motors have a very, very long lifespan compared to old electric motors. So much so that sometimes the bearings are stated as the item that wears out and eventually "breaks" the motor.

No idea how to assess that though. Conveniently electric motors themselves are cheap, comparatively speaking, and much more easily shipped. As a consolation if one buys used.
Reminds me of the Farr30 a friend of mine got. Bought it together with someone that is pretty well versed around diesels, but didn't take it apart. Few months later the piston failed. Bought a new engine...

1 hour ago, floater said:

From the information given about the cycles available on the batteries

That is a really pertinent point. There are some ways to measure how good batteries still are.(total discharge, wattage/internal resistance if you have gear) Takes time though. Often rule of thumb is to simply devalue them quite a bit if you buy used and live with what you get. If you can't check before.

Since you can never know if a previous user abused them.(read drained until empty to dead. Which does have more of an impact) Only try to guesstimate, at least as far as my knowledge goes(pro's are likely different), what you currently have via ability to deliver current and overall watthours.

[ProaSailor 674]

53 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Proa, I think you are being way too harsh.  This looks like a common set of growth pains for a young company which seems to be expanding rapidly.

I have a very low tolerance for bullshit.  As a life-long programmer, blatant software bugs are a particular sore spot.  Some companies are quite content to use their customers as an extension of their QA department, if they have one at all.  A prominent PNW-based CAD company springs to mind... Well documented bugs that everyone can see the first time they touch the defective code go unfixed for many years.  It's part of their corporate culture and annoying as hell!

ePropulsion was founded in 2012 so it's not that young.  160 employees.  It's bad enough when obviously flawed product is sold but when it doesn't get fixed promptly, it's an assault on the paying customer.  Intolerable.

[Bull City 2,594]

2 hours ago, floater said:

it looks like they need a better process for updating firmware. I guess Bull City doesn't need a new unit, just new firmware. And if the only method they have for that is to ship hardware it seems a bit nuts.

No, no. Bull needs a new unit. He doesn't want to fart around with shipping to the busiest dealer in the universe, and wait for him to send it back.

The trick is you need a cable to connect your computer to the controller. It's probably cheap, and they could send one to the end user.

and as for spare parts, that is cool. and after all, knot meters do last for years. But I guess the pov I am adopting here is when out shopping used boats, and it has an electric drive aboard, how do you evaluate it? From the information given about the cycles available on the batteries - the size of the batteries might be worth paying attention to, but apparently their lifespan is really long - perhaps even longer than the boat they are sitting on. and probably longer than the rest of hardware involved.

The battery's lifespan is probably longer than that of its owner.

 

[weightless 708]

32 minutes ago, allweather said:

I know brushless motors have a very, very long lifespan compared to old electric motors. So much so that sometimes the bearings are stated as the item that wears out and eventually "breaks" the motor.

I expect the seals will be a point of failure. They're wear items. Hard to inspect, too.

[Bull City 2,594]

8 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

I have a very low tolerance for bullshit.  As a life-long programmer, blatant software bugs are a particular sore spot.  Some companies are quite content to use their customers as an extension of their QA department, if they have one at all.  A prominent PNW-based CAD company springs to mind... Well documented bugs that everyone can see the first time they touch the defective code go unfixed for many years.  It's part of their corporate culture and annoying as hell!

ePropulsion was founded in 2012 so it's not that young.  160 employees.  It's bad enough when obviously flawed product is sold but when it doesn't get fixed promptly, it's an assault on the paying customer.  Intolerable.

Proa, you're right, I get it. A few peeves I've had are:

• They knew they had a batch of controllers with a problem, but they did not initiate a "re-call" program. I had a Torqeedo OB before the pod. They had a battery issue, and rolled out a re-call/inspection program that was very well done.
• Some of the info in the User Manuals is wrong as to setting up the controller. Only at the suggestion of Kris Kringle did I check YouTube and find that EP had posted videos with the correct procedure. The manuals are very poorly written and not very helpful. Again, very poor communications.
• The reliance on dealers to provide product support just doesn't work for several reasons: not enough in depth product knowledge across all the products, which is understandable; end users not being close to any dealer; dealers are often small and not staffed well.

But other than this stuff, the system seems pretty darn good. I think the weak link in my situation is a dealer who is in a constant state of overwhelmed. I do think EP is making an effort to address these shortcomings.

[Illegal Smile 68]

20 hours ago, Bull City said:

 

But other than this stuff, the system seems pretty darn good. I think the weak link in my situation is a dealer who is in a constant state of overwhelmed. I do think EP is making an effort to address these shortcomings.

Interesting that there's no EP dealer on the US East Coast between Maryland and Florida, and only one Torqeedo dealer other than West Marine. Perhaps a business opportunity for someone in Oriental?

[allweather 70]

23 hours ago, weightless said:

I expect the seals will be a point of failure. They're wear items. Hard to inspect, too.

Probably, yes. Parts are available and repairs look doable according to youtube.
But as you said, hard to inspect casually and who wants to take everything apart regularly?

Though, is that any different for diesel shafts? Mostly asking for my own curiousity since I don't have a boat like that and always gave the petrol outboard to maintenance... And wondering if that is a similar case to the range anxiety a lot of people in my area profess to.

With which I mean how suddenly everyone and their grandma is a broker or on call specialist that needs to drive a thousand kilometers a day. And back. Uphill and upwind too. When the average statistical daily driving distance is around 30km.

[floater 696]

20 minutes ago, allweather said:

Probably, yes. Parts are available and repairs look doable according to youtube.
But as you said, hard to inspect casually and who wants to take everything apart regularly?

Though, is that any different for diesel shafts? Mostly asking for my own curiousity since I don't have a boat like that and always gave the petrol outboard to maintenance... And wondering if that is a similar case to the range anxiety a lot of people in my area profess to.

With which I mean how suddenly everyone and their grandma is a broker or on call specialist that needs to drive a thousand kilometers a day. And back. Uphill and upwind too. When the average statistical daily driving distance is around 30km.

the seals in my saildrive just failed - you could see this as the oil became cloudy. Straightforward to haul the boat and have the seals replaced, and after all, its just gears in there.

otoh. if your pod develops a leak.. I suppose a fixed schedule for seal replacement is important (perhaps equal to the warranty period

[weightless 708]

31 minutes ago, allweather said:

Though, is that any different for diesel shafts?

Similar to a saildrive as floater mentioned. Some conventional shafts use lip seals too. The setups I've seen with them aren't easy to inspect but can be replaced while in the water if they fail. Packing glands can can be visually inspected and adjusted when in commission. The dripless glands can be inspected. When water is getting into any of them, as in time it always does, it tends to be noticeable. Unless there is a sensor inside a pod I'm not sure how noticeable water ingress would be.

[allweather 70]

To be fair,  I don't know how it goes with the epropulsion ones specifically.
Yet for some tear down of others I have seen it can be as simple as removing the prop, unscrewing two bolts and popping off an end plate. Overall not exactly no work, but also an hour or two on the dry...

I also haven't heard of ingress related failures yet. Would be interesting if your supplier had some information on regularity of checks and maintenance, Bull. Everything I ever heard was that these seals last for years, yet that is anecdotal at best.

[weightless 708]

6 hours ago, allweather said:

Everything I ever heard was that these seals last for years, yet that is anecdotal at best.

They certainly can last a long time. A lip seal is not as terrifying as an offset companionway or anything.

IME, there are several failure modes with very different timing. Oil seals can last decades. Pump seals in difficult environments maybe hundreds of hours. Failures can be catastrophic or just a bit of dripping. MBTF might not tell the whole story. A small leak may be okay in some applications and not in others.

Given enough time the seal material degrades. If seals depend on springs or elastic rings to maintain lip pressure those can fail. If the shaft gets rough it can tear up the lips. Platted shafts can delaminate, shafts can get rusty, critters can grow on them... If a bearing gets loose excess shaft play can wreck the seals. Heat can kill them.

7 hours ago, allweather said:

I also haven't heard of ingress related failures yet.

Well, two posts above yours is a report of water ingress. That's into a saildrive where there is oil in the pod and a double set of seals. I suspect that a pod full of surface air and fancy electronics is both more likely to leak and more vulnerable to small leaks.

[Kris Cringle 2,172]

Rowing in from my mooring yesterday, this boat silently glided by just a few feet away. 

Sort of an odd boat, daysailer, museum replica, etc. It just sold (listed at 40K - says something about the e-power?) and I suppose the new owners were on it. 

The boat doesn't tug at my heart strings, but it's pretty on the water (photos by the broker).

But the simple act if it gliding by, silent, appearing without power, the people onboard hushed, happily, that was just so great to be next to it, rowing.

Maybe it was my head spinning after the 2 hour thrashing I just had taken into 20-25 headwinds. 

[TwoLegged 2,238]

7 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

Rowing in from my mooring yesterday, this boat silently glided by just a few feet away. 

Sort of an odd boat, daysailer, museum replica, etc. It just sold (listed at 40K - says something about the e-power?) and I suppose the new owners were on it. 

Kinda pretty, but to my eye a bit too self-consciously old-timey to be really attractive.

And WTF is going on with that mainsheet horse?  It looks like a crude afterthought made out of galvanised pig iron.

[chester 1,253]

44 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Kinda pretty, but to my eye a bit too self-consciously old-timey to be really attractive.

And WTF is going on with that mainsheet horse?  It looks like a crude afterthought made out of galvanised pig iron.

it's called authenticity.

[TwoLegged 2,238]

19 minutes ago, chester said:

1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Kinda pretty, but to my eye a bit too self-consciously old-timey to be really attractive.

And WTF is going on with that mainsheet horse?  It looks like a crude afterthought made out of galvanised pig iron.

it's called authenticity.

In the sense that once you can fake authenticity, you got it made.

Except that these guys haven't.

[Kris Cringle 2,172]

12 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Kinda pretty, but to my eye a bit too self-consciously old-timey to be really attractive.

And WTF is going on with that mainsheet horse?  It looks like a crude afterthought made out of galvanised pig iron.

Old timey, for sure. But it's your history.

 

Grace is 19’ LOA Paul Gartside cutter built by the Great Lakes School of Boatbuilding in 2011.  She is based on the Falmouth Working Boat, a 19^th century oyster fishing boat turned racing class from Gartside’s childhood home of Falmouth, Cornwall. The sweeping sheer, high-peaked gaff cutter rig, offset bowsprit, and plumb bow and transom are all there and though she’s scaled down, the shape and proportions are spot-on.

[TwoLegged 2,238]

4 hours ago, Kris Cringle said:

Old timey, for sure. But it's your history.

 

Grace is 19’ LOA Paul Gartside cutter built by the Great Lakes School of Boatbuilding in 2011.  She is based on the Falmouth Working Boat, a 19^th century oyster fishing boat turned racing class from Gartside’s childhood home of Falmouth, Cornwall. The sweeping sheer, high-peaked gaff cutter rig, offset bowsprit, and plumb bow and transom are all there and though she’s scaled down, the shape and proportions are spot-on.

What makes you think that I am Cornish?

[Kris Cringle 2,172]

4 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

What makes you think that I am Cornish?

Well, close neighbors at least? You were closer in the 19th century, though, right? Never mind,...

 

I agree, the boat is an anachronism that in the capacity of a daysailer, looks outdated even amongst our older fleet. 

 

Hopefully it sails well. 

[TwoLegged 2,238]

1 minute ago, Kris Cringle said:

Well, close neighbors at least? You were closer in the 19th century, though, right? Never mind,...

Well, you are on the same landmass as Mexico, so I guess that up in Maine you all wear sombreros whilst drinking margheritas with those traditional Maine tortillas   

[sculpin 230]

3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Well, you are on the same landmass as Mexico, so I guess that up in Maine you all wear sombreros whilst drinking margheritas with those traditional Maine tortillas   

you haven't lived until you've had a labstah enchilada...

[Kris Cringle 2,172]

4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Well, you are on the same landmass as Mexico, so I guess that up in Maine you all wear sombreros whilst drinking margheritas with those traditional Maine tortillas   

The Mexican influence is overwhelmed by our Canadian neighbors, at least in boat styles, I guess(what is a Mexican sailboat style?).

Our land scale, in miles, feels so different than yours that I forget your closer country boundaries.

I'm about the same distance from Canada (adjoining borders), as you are in Dublin, from London. 

This would be a combined boat style of (19th century) our nearest neighbors.

The captain is clearly American stylin'.  

 

[TwoLegged 2,238]

5 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

I'm about the same distance from Canada (adjoining borders), as you are in Dublin, from London. 

Me, Dublin?  I escaped from the Jackeens decades ago  

But yeah, distances are shorter here.  My place is 50 metres from the county line in one direction, and about 1500metres in the other. I am close to the west coast, but only a little over a 180km from the east coast.  ~400km from the south-western extremity at Mizen head, and ~200km from the northernmost point at Malin Head.  Those seem to be the sort of distances that North Americans travel to get to the next town ... but the roads are a whole different story, so the driving experience isn't comparable.

[Fah Kiew Tu 3,239]

1 hour ago, Kris Cringle said:

The Mexican influence is overwhelmed by our Canadian neighbors, at least in boat styles, I guess(what is a Mexican sailboat style?).

Our land scale, in miles, feels so different than yours that I forget your closer country boundaries.

I'm about the same distance from Canada (adjoining borders), as you are in Dublin, from London. 

This would be a combined boat style of (19th century) our nearest neighbors.

The captain is clearly American stylin'.  

 

I always liked the lines of the Tancook whalers. In fact somewhere I have a book on those.

FKT

[Kris Cringle 2,172]

A Torqueedo pod drive install. Seems all designs are game for epower conversions, if owners are inclined.  

[Bull City 2,594]

^^ Now THAT is a tiller!

[Bull City 2,594]

Update on Controller/Throttle Thingy:

As you all know...

On 9/23, I told the dealer, Annapolis Hybrid Marine, that I wanted a new controller with the correct software. I heard nothing for several days, 10/4 emailed them again, heard nothing. Called them on 10/13; they promised to call me the next day. They didn't, so I emailed eP Service (in China) on 10/16. The same day they responded, saying that they told AHM to send a me a new one.

No word at all from AHM. I emailed eP Service once or twice about this, and they assured me AHM was on the case.

Yesterday, I was piddling around on TONIC, and decided to call AHM. David's mailbox was full (not a good sign) so I called his partner, Sally and left her a message. I also sent this to eP Service:

I have not heard anything from David. I called him today, and his phone mail box is full. That is not a good sign. I called his partner, Sally Reuther, and left a message. I have had no response from her yet.

This unresponsiveness is simply unacceptable. Perhaps you can have another dealer handle this matter.

This seemed to get a reaction. Later in the day, I got an email from the US distributor, Mack Boring, saying that would ship the throttle as soon as I sent them the serial number. I told him that if I trusted them on a $5K+ system, they could damn well trust me on a $300 accessory. Sally from AHM also sent me a verbose email about how busy they've been and how I could have sent them my throttle for a software update, she thinks the throttle has already been shipped, etc. You can imagine my reaction. I told her that a lot of frustration and wasted time could have been avoided had they (AHM) communicated all of this to me promptly, boat shows not withstanding.

Today, Mack Boring advised me that the throttle would be shipped tomorrow.

 

[Fah Kiew Tu 3,239]

1 hour ago, Bull City said:

Update on Controller/Throttle Thingy:

As you all know...

On 9/23, I told the dealer, Annapolis Hybrid Marine, that I wanted a new controller with the correct software. I heard nothing for several days, 10/4 emailed them again, heard nothing. Called them on 10/13; they promised to call me the next day. They didn't, so I emailed eP Service (in China) on 10/16. The same day they responded, saying that they told AHM to send a me a new one.

No word at all from AHM. I emailed eP Service once or twice about this, and they assured me AHM was on the case.

Yesterday, I was piddling around on TONIC, and decided to call AHM. David's mailbox was full (not a good sign) so I called his partner, Sally and left her a message. I also sent this to eP Service:

I have not heard anything from David. I called him today, and his phone mail box is full. That is not a good sign. I called his partner, Sally Reuther, and left a message. I have had no response from her yet.

This unresponsiveness is simply unacceptable. Perhaps you can have another dealer handle this matter.

This seemed to get a reaction. Later in the day, I got an email from the US distributor, Mack Boring, saying that would ship the throttle as soon as I sent them the serial number. I told him that if I trusted them on a $5K+ system, they could damn well trust me on a $300 accessory. Sally from AHM also sent me a verbose email about how busy they've been and how I could have sent them my throttle for a software update, she thinks the throttle has already been shipped, etc. You can imagine my reaction. I told her that a lot of frustration and wasted time could have been avoided had they (AHM) communicated all of this to me promptly, boat shows not withstanding.

Today, Mack Boring advised me that the throttle would be shipped tomorrow.

 

Hope it works out well for you. FWIW I totally agree with your comments, it was on them to ship to you, not on you to disable a partially functional system in the *hope* that you'd get a better replacement - sometime.

Dealers who do shit like that are why people just try to go direct. I've had some personal experience here on this.

FKT

[ProaSailor 674]

1 hour ago, Bull City said:

On 9/23, I told the dealer, Annapolis Hybrid Marine, that I wanted a new controller with the correct software.

Maybe I had it backwards.  Looks more like your dealer is making ePropulsion look bad.

On 10/20/2021 at 4:30 AM, ProaSailor said:

Makes the dealer look bad too: Annapolis Hybrid Marine

At this point, I wouldn't quibble about sending them the serial number.  That costs you nothing.

[Bull City 2,594]

11 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

Maybe I had it backwards.  Looks more like your dealer is making ePropulsion look bad. Exactly.

At this point, I wouldn't quibble about sending them the serial number.  That costs you nothing. I have no issue with giving them the SN. My beef is that they (AHM & Distributor) did not bring it up until yesterday, after over a month of no communication from them.

One thing I will add is that AHM, particularly Sally, seem to spend more time and effort writing lengthy emails with excuses for not doing something, than it would take to just do it.

[TwoLegged 2,238]

11 hours ago, Bull City said:

Today, Mack Boring advised me that the throttle would be shipped tomorrow.

Good news, and a great name.  Customer service people should be Boring MacBoring: sorry about yer broken part, new one is one the way, here's the tracker link, bye. 

[allweather 70]

11 hours ago, Bull City said:

One thing I will add is that AHM, particularly Sally, seem to spend more time and effort writing lengthy emails with excuses for not doing something, than it would take to just do it.

Wow you sound unhappy! Understandably so.

Bit painful since I have been on both ends of this equation before. Especially when acting as a middleman when one really does not know all that much about product and is only there for accounting purposes or similar.

Doesn't make what sounds an organizational problem better. (seriously, the amount of times I met people, bosses even, that were always busy because their skill to efficiently organize once their business grew beyond them is surprisingly large.)

One of the reasons I tend to try going at things on my own so often. At least then I only have to blame my own stupidity.

[Bull City 2,594]

36 minutes ago, allweather said:

Wow you sound unhappy! Understandably so.

Bit painful since I have been on both ends of this equation before. Especially when acting as a middleman when one really does not know all that much about product and is only there for accounting purposes or similar.

Doesn't make what sounds an organizational problem better. (seriously, the amount of times I met people, bosses even, that were always busy because their skill to efficiently organize once their business grew beyond them is surprisingly large.)

One of the reasons I tend to try going at things on my own so often. At least then I only have to blame my own stupidity.

I think disappointed is more the truth. AHM was quite responsive initially and very helpful. The eP pod drive has been great thus far, and I wish the relationship with AHM had not gotten sour over this.

On a happier note, I am looking forward to charting Watts & Knots with the new throttle.

[allweather 70]

1 minute ago, Bull City said:

I wish the relationship with AHM had not gotten sour over this.

Yes, that is probably the worst thing to take away. Passable dealers are so difficult to find, yet all but necessary for some things because they know the guy who can weld together your two halves of a tiller on a Saturday 2100 so you can compete on Sunday...

Or just help identify a part number and how to get a replacement. I know that those are the reasons I still go to them.

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,438]

Will Smith, Kevin Durant and Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs invest in electric boat startup Arc

Arc, a startup that launched 10 months ago with ambitions to electrify everything on the water, starting with a limited-edition $300,000 boat, has captured the attention and capital of some of the entertainment industry’s biggest stars. The startup, which closed a seed round in February led by VC firm Andreessen Horowitz, has brought on several new investors, including funds from Will Smith’s Dreamers VC, Kevin Durant and Rich Kleiman’s Thirty Five Ventures and Sean “Diddy” Combs’ Combs Enterprises.

 

https://techcrunch.com/2021/10/29/will-smith-kevin-durant-and-sean-diddy-combs-invest-in-electric-boat-startup-arc/?fbclid=IwAR0_-7mWCNgDFC4sQ8_MT9RuaqXgUVVV1d0vdt0zqZYiQnwWm8Qj7h574ZA

[TwoLegged 2,238]

1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Will Smith, Kevin Durant and Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs invest in electric boat startup Arc

Arc, a startup that launched 10 months ago with ambitions to electrify everything on the water, starting with a limited-edition $300,000 boat, has captured the attention and capital of some of the entertainment industry’s biggest stars. The startup, which closed a seed round in February led by VC firm Andreessen Horowitz, has brought on several new investors, including funds from Will Smith’s Dreamers VC, Kevin Durant and Rich Kleiman’s Thirty Five Ventures and Sean “Diddy” Combs’ Combs Enterprises.

 

https://techcrunch.com/2021/10/29/will-smith-kevin-durant-and-sean-diddy-combs-invest-in-electric-boat-startup-arc/?fbclid=IwAR0_-7mWCNgDFC4sQ8_MT9RuaqXgUVVV1d0vdt0zqZYiQnwWm8Qj7h574ZA

Obviously, a basketball player and a rapper are exactly the sort of engineering talents who are best placed to ensure that the technology is sound.  Personally, I never buy any heavy-duty electrical equipment unless it has a rapper's stamp of approval.

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,438]

9 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Obviously, a basketball player and a rapper are exactly the sort of engineering talents who are best placed to ensure that the technology is sound.  Personally, I never buy any heavy-duty electrical equipment unless it has a rapper's stamp of approval.

Dunno.  Popped up as a link on the BC Coastal Mariners FB page and it caught my eye, thought might be of interest here.  
 

One of the founders of the venture is a former SpaceX engineer.  Looks like they’re using the entertainer dudes’ money for “brand awareness”, or whatever corporate marketing fuckers call it:

‘ “All of these people, in addition to just being world class at what they do, have a ton of experience building brands and marketing products, and generally cultivating a community,” [co-founder] Lee told TechCrunch in a recent interview.’

[chester 1,253]

10 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Obviously, a basketball player and a rapper are exactly the sort of engineering talents who are best placed to ensure that the technology is sound.  Personally, I never buy any heavy-duty electrical equipment unless it has a rapper's stamp of approval.

it's disingenous to dismiss Sean Combs as a "rapper"....he is a very smart and visionary business person who used the wealth he aquired as a performer to pursure business interests in music production, fashion and other areas...like electric boat development.  It would be a mistake to not invest in something becaause it had Diddy's stamp of approval, he's apretty smart dude.

[fufkin 641]

There’s this guy Dr Dre who, with his partner Jimmy Lovine developed a company with a fundamental base in engineering and sold it to Apple for 3 billion. The engineering and vision that went into the now defunct streaming service has now morphed into Apple Music.

The other product that came out of the deal/company, a great symbiosis between engineering talent and visionary branding, is the Beats line of headphones...top sellers in the market place.

Further, If you combined the top 20 rapper’s in terms of net wealth you might easily exceed 3 or 4 billion and who knows for basketball players. Both the built in market and level of influence across a broader market might easily dwarf a more traditional branding of a high end luxury yacht.

I say these guys already have a leg up on any of their competition even before the vapourware dries.

[chester 1,253]

3 minutes ago, fufkin said:

There’s this guy Dr Dre who, with his partner Jimmy Lovine developed a company with a fundamental base in engineering and sold it to Apple for 3 billion. The engineering and vision that went into the now defunct streaming service has now morphed into Apple Music.

The other product that came out of the deal/company, a great symbiosis between engineering talent and visionary branding, is the Beats line of headphones...top sellers in the market place.

Further, If you combined the top 20 rapper’s in terms of net wealth you might easily exceed 3 or 4 billion and who knows for basketball players. Both the built in market and level of influence across a broader market might easily dwarf a more traditional branding of a high end luxury yacht.

I say these guys already have a leg up on any of their competition even before the vapourware dries.

funny to compare all these "rappers" with a guy whose visionary business idea was to slap his name/brand on steaks...invest in technology at the forefront of the human wedge of ingenuity...and steaks.

[Jim in Halifax 600]

Not a fan of lossy music streaming and Beats headphones are shite - only suitable for playing crap MP3 / AAC files. If you appreciate music and want to listen to digital files, lossless .wav or .flac at 24 bit/48 or 96 kHz is the way to go. And get a decent pair of AKG or Sennheiser cans (for the same $ as you pay for Beats) Or go analogue. Ask Bob Perry about turntables. Of course, YMMV.

[fufkin 641]

3 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

Not a fan of lossy music streaming and Beats headphones are shite - only suitable for playing crap MP3 / AAC files. If you appreciate music and want to listen to digital files, lossless .wav or .flac at 24 bit/48 or 96 kHz is the way to go. And get a decent pair of AKG or Sennheiser cans (for the same $ as you pay for Beats) Or go analogue. Ask Bob Perry about turntables. Of course, YMMV.

I couldn’t agree with you more about Beats vs Sennheiser, AKG, Bose, even JBL. Ditto on AAC or WAV vs mp3 etc. 
 

Apple ‘hi res lossless’ currently streams at 24 bit/192kHz, claims CD quality sound. You need to be wireless to do this. I have a pair of JBL headphones that can stream wireless, sound great, or I can stream to my main home stereo via Bose SoundTouch, which I’ve gotta say, sounds great as well. If my ears get sore, I’ve got a Bang & Olufsen turntable for emergency sessions where even CD quality falls short capturing a good Verve Label ride cymbal sound.

None of this  changes the fact that the branding and marketing has Beats headphones flying off the shelves.

[fufkin 641]

So these guys are tellin me you need some help sellin boats...

...yeah maybe we can help with that...

 

[Bull City 2,594]

On 10/28/2021 at 5:02 PM, Bull City said:

Today, Mack Boring advised me that the throttle would be shipped tomorrow.

New throttle arrived yesterday from Mack Boring. I'm going to plug it in and set it up tomorrow.

[chester 1,253]

2 hours ago, Bull City said:

New throttle arrived yesterday from Mack Boring. I'm going to plug it in and set it up tomorrow.

you have a paid up audience ready for the next act!

[Bull City 2,594]

1 hour ago, chester said:

you have a paid up audience ready for the next act!

Thank you, thank you very much.

 

[chester 1,253]

2 hours ago, Bull City said:

Thank you, thank you very much.

 

take it easy buddy, it's a fickle crowd  

[Bull City 2,594]

Good news!

I set up the new throttle/controller today, and took a spin. Everything looked good. The knots display agreed with my phone app (and eyeball) and the distance remaining at current speed looked good.

 

[allweather 70]

Finally!

How are the conditions in your place now? Mine is back on the hard for the winter and I am already working all the things that need doing...

[Bull City 2,594]

10 minutes ago, allweather said:

Finally!

How are the conditions in your place now? Mine is back on the hard for the winter and I am already working all the things that need doing...

Today it was 55º F and sunny with a brisk wind. Next week, I'm planning to sail on a friend's boat east of here in the Pamlico Sound. The forecast there is Low 50º F, High 70º F, Sunny to Partly Cloudy, NE 7 knots.

[Bull City 2,594]

I posted this on the Toqeedo thread:

Recently, I went from a Torqeedo Travel 1003 outboard to an ePropulsion Pod Drive 3.0. I believe the 1003 refers to the output in Watts, and the 3.0 is Kilowatts.

Anyhow, the boat is 27.25' LOA, 20.7' LWL, 7.3' Beam, 3,200 lbs. Disp. I went for a spin today under power. There was a brisk side wind. The Watts & Knots were:

This is a little better than with the Torqeedo (sorry for not having Apples to Apples):

The eP is a 48v system, the Torqeedo is 24v. Would you say the eP is more efficient?

 

[Laurent 2,002]

3 hours ago, Bull City said:

Would you say the eP is more efficient?

Yes, it looks like it is. I plotted the figures in the table above:

[weightless 708]

5 hours ago, Bull City said:

Would you say the eP is more efficient?

I think it's difficult to tell. The data is sparse and the test conditions weren't ideal. FWIW:

[Bull City 2,594]

It seems clear that the eProp Pod is at least as efficient as the Torqeedo, which is very nice to know.

In both cases, i.e. the Torqeedo and the eProp, the knot and Watt readings do not stay constant, they jump around a bit, so you have to do some mental averaging.

[Panoramix 1,777]

On 11/6/2021 at 5:26 AM, Laurent said:

Yes, it looks like it is. I plotted the figures in the table above:

 

Interesting, presumably the pod propeller works better (better flow or bigger diameter ?) Looking at the graph, it seems that there is little point in pushing the boat beyond 4.5 knots.

[allweather 70]

Really looks like it. Makes sense with hull speed around 6-7kn.

All that „extra“ power should come in handy for a windier day. Eager to hear about that if you get into the situation, Bull. Not really expecting any surprises though. 

[weightless 708]

4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

 

Interesting, presumably the pod propeller works better (better flow or bigger diameter ?) Looking at the graph, it seems that there is little point in pushing the boat beyond 4.5 knots.

All this from four dubious data points? Really?