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Oh that cutout is significantly larger than on my boat where there is space behind the wall still.(shelf is probably the same size overall)

How about mounting both the throttle and the screen on a board that can swivel back to one side of the shelf? That way youd don't lose all of the space and the parts can be out of the way, as well as rain, when you don't need them?

Kind of like how some boats have a swivel mount for the plotter/radio/instruments in the companionway.

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That's a fallacy promoted by makers of electric propulsion. 1 HP = 746 Watts = 0.746 kW. That is the definition of what a HP is! The output of outboard motors is measured at the prop shaft so the

Thank you, I like her

I got a note from the ePropulsion dealer advising me that the new pod drives won't be arriving until mid-June, about three months later than the company advertised. Apparently, their production schedu

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16 hours ago, Zonker said:

Do the controls have identical IP ratings?

I'd put the display anywhere in the cockpit. You don't have to look at it steadily; just probably tells you consumption/remaining battery power or range.  Just on the fwd end of the cockpit?

Did not see any IP ratings in the manuals.

16 hours ago, Crash said:

How often to you need to "access/see/use" the display while actually motoring?  At start up, to confirm everything is nominal (like with a diesel?) then mostly not look at it while maneuvering and motoring, then again, at shut down?   If that's all, then it doesn't need to be instantly at hand nor in your "immediate" line of sight, which should expand the options.  Send some pics of the cockpit around where you would mount the throttle/shift lever, and where your current instuments (if any) are mounted.  I'm sure the brain trust here will come up with a range of good ideas

 

The controls display speed from GPS, which makes it handy.

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I'm inclined to get the Top Mount control unit. It's very similar, almost identical, to what I have now, which works pretty well. Unlike the Side Mount with display, I can stow it out of the elements (and UV) when not in use, and I don't have to make any holes in the boat.

On the other hand, the the Side Mount looks like a "real" auxiliary engine control, while the Top Mount looks like I don't have my big boy pants yet. It wouldn't be the first time.

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13 hours ago, Bull City said:

a "real" auxiliary engine control, while the Top Mount looks like I don't have my big boy pants yet.

The top mount certainly has something going for simplicity. Where would you think of mounting the other two units if you opted for a seperate screen and side mount?

About the old school control it is good to remember that they just look like that due to the need of (mechanical?) linkage? With electrics a tiny knob is all that you need. Afterall every cargo ship or plane runs by wire. Tiny joystick in any case. There really is no practical need for a big lever to stick around in the cockpit so that you can hit your knees on it.

Question then is how much you care about the more traditional appearance of the engine control?

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3 hours ago, allweather said:

Question then is how much you care about the more traditional appearance of the engine control?

Not too much. I'll probably go with the Top Mount. I wanted to give the topic an airing.

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On 1/19/2021 at 1:11 AM, Fleetwood said:

You could always put a hinged box over it to hide/protect it when not in use. It does look a  bit plasticky (sp?).

I have a very similar controller for my Torqeedo that I keep in a little storage cubby at the aft end of the cockpit. 

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On 1/16/2021 at 5:00 PM, Bull City said:

Another thing. Should I get the Top or Side Mount Remote Control? I'm inclined to go with the Top Mount, but would be interested opinions.

The Top Mount is very similar to what I have for my Torqeedo. I have a secure place to stow it at the aft end of the cockpit, and could easily route the cable. It can be cable or wireless, but I would use the cable. Cost is $300

The Side Mount is like a regular inboard throttle. The display is separate. I'm not sure where I'd put the display. Cost is $450

Top Mount:

https://www.epropulsion.com/product-page/navy-remote-control

image.png.79632a2c722a26f4fa431773768629d8.png

 

 

Side Mount:

https://www.epropulsion.com/product-page/side-mount-control

image.png.c6edad65e75c2d134c1f80c5dfe0cf51.png

For a company selling themselves as a high tech, top end product, why do they make their throttle controls look like something off of a '90s game console? The top mount in particular I think I'd be embarrassed to have on my boat. 

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It's a pity to see them keeping the same control format as the cable-pull devices for diesel engines.

1311823455_Jaguargearselector.jpg.a994b0717e218369b35a9d15c98277a8.jpgThey could take some inspiration from Jaguar cars, which took advantage of the move to electronic control as a chance to dump the traditional gear selector stick.  They replaced it with a knob which hides when the engine is off.

That knob probably isn't the right approach for the boat, but it's an example of an effective rethink

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4 hours ago, Jackett said:

For a company selling themselves as a high tech, top end product, why do they make their throttle controls look like something off of a '90s game console? The top mount in particular I think I'd be embarrassed to have on my boat. 

I see your point. As @allweather said, there is some harkening (?) back to traditional, mechanically linked engine controls, and some desire to look modern. The look is not my first choice, but I can live with it.

3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

It's a pity to see them keeping the same control format as the cable-pull devices for diesel engines.

1311823455_Jaguargearselector.jpg.a994b0717e218369b35a9d15c98277a8.jpgThey could take some inspiration from Jaguar cars, which took advantage of the move to electronic control as a chance to dump the traditional gear selector stick.  They replaced it with a knob which hides when the engine is off.

That knob probably isn't the right approach for the boat, but it's an example of an effective rethink

I think they probably want to keep the idea of the mechanically linked engine controls, so that they are familiar to people.

Auto companies could easily switch from a steering wheel to a joy stick, but I wonder how much acceptance there would be.

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9 minutes ago, Bull City said:

I think they probably want to keep the idea of the mechanically linked engine controls, so that they are familiar to people.

Auto companies could easily switch from a steering wheel to a joy stick, but I wonder how much acceptance there would be.

I can see the logic of maintaining a familiar interface, even if it's sub-optimal.

The problem with that logic, is that taken if too far it can lead to absurdities such as the retention of the QWERTY keyboard layout, which is by design the worst possible layout.

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Have to remembter that often enough old folks are the final decision makers as they are the boss. And sentimentality can delay modernization like that quite a bit.
Always remember an article I read somewhere on how engineers in the nineties proposed getting rid of car mirrors and use tiny cameras instead. Which would have done A LOT for fuel efficiency. But according to leadership it didn't look right.

Which brings me to getting rid of the steering wheel now that everything is electrically linked anyway. We may just jump right past that with the advent of self driving cars.
Though otherwise we can look at the military using gamepads and have our answer there. The younger generation already knows how to use them and will likely not bat an eye if anyone tried to replace the steering wheel. Though last thing I knew it was a regulatory issue since some apertures have to be in a car to make it legal. Like side mirrors but that is about to change somewhere in the near future.

But then the lucrative yacht market isn't exactly found with twenty something olds. Yachts may lag on account of that.
Enough of my digression. When do you think you'll get it installed, Bull?

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

I see your point. As @allweather said, there is some harkening (?) back to traditional, mechanically linked engine controls, and some desire to look modern. The look is not my first choice, but I can live with it.

I think they probably want to keep the idea of the mechanically linked engine controls, so that they are familiar to people.

Auto companies could easily switch from a steering wheel to a joy stick, but I wonder how much acceptance there would be.

NONE!

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32 minutes ago, allweather said:

When do you think you'll get it installed, Bull?

@allweather A very interesting digression, and very welcome on this winter day.

As @Beanie 101 reported, eProp has come out with some new products including a regen pod and a folding propeller option. I looked at their website this morning and it has been updated to include all of this. The dealer told me that she's meeting with their distributor this week to find out more details, including availability dates, and I hope to hear back very soon.

She mentioned that the distributor has a non-regen 3.0 pod and a 4 KWh battery in stock. The question is whether the folding prop would fit. That question is on her list.

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7 minutes ago, Bull City said:

he dealer told me that she's meeting with their distributor this week to find out more details, including availability dates, and I hope to hear back very soon.

Nice. Sounds like you'll have it ready and tested for the coming season. Going to look forward to your experience with it. Especially compared to your previous outboard!

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6 hours ago, Jackett said:

For a company selling themselves as a high tech, top end product, why do they make their throttle controls look like something off of a '90s game console? The top mount in particular I think I'd be embarrassed to have on my boat. 

It would be right at home on a powerboat, probably their main market. 

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28 minutes ago, DDW said:

It would be right at home on a powerboat, probably their main market. 

This is also why it's nearly impossible to purchase outdoor speakers that lack multicolored LEDs.

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Don't forget the underwater lights - critical to the function of any powerboat. 

Outdoor speakers on powerboats are the very best argument for gun ownership. I spent a horrible night anchored in Roche Harbor with heavy metal at ear bleed volume screaming from the outdoor speakers on a powerboat until about 3 AM. Had I a good rifle on board, I could have turned the volume down on those speakers as a public service....

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What about the inside speakers? A12 gauge slug at the waterline covers that and the electronics too, though you would have to listen to the panicked yelling for a while.

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10 hours ago, Jackett said:

For a company selling themselves as a high tech, top end product, why do they make their throttle controls look like something off of a '90s game console? The top mount in particular I think I'd be embarrassed to have on my boat. 

Don't complain, they could've just made an app.

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2 hours ago, IStream said:

What about the inside speakers? A12 gauge slug at the waterline covers that and the electronics too, though you would have to listen to the panicked yelling for a while.

It was a Bayliner so I think even a pellet gun at the waterline would have done it. 

1 hour ago, blurocketsmate said:

Don't complain, they could've just made an app.

I think they do make an app? I believe the control is BT connected.

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I just had a conversation with the dealer about the folding prop and dates. It's looking like a 2 month wait.

ePropulsion is still determining whether the folding prop is compatible with the non-regen pod drives. If it is, it will take 2 months to get one. If not, it will take 2 months to get a regen pod drive.

I was hoping to get this done over the winter, but that's probably not possible, unless I drop the folding prop.

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45 minutes ago, Bull City said:

I was hoping to get this done over the winter, but that's probably not possible, unless I drop the folding prop.

Shame about the delays, Bull ... but surely you can make the battery mount before receipt of parts, and then the pod installation will be only about 2 or 3 days work?

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25 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Shame about the delays, Bull ... but surely you can make the battery mount before receipt of parts, and then the pod installation will be only about 2 or 3 days work?

Thanks for the sympathy, TwoLegs. :mellow: That's a good point about the battery mount.

The plan is to move the boat to the shop/yard who did a lot of the renovation 6 years ago, and and have them take care of some other things, and do the installation. Before moving, I want to basically empty the boat: sails, berth cushions, gear, so that I can give the interior a thorough cleaning and touch up the woodwork in the cabin.

But I really don't want to make that move or empty the boat until I have a reliable time frame for the arrival of the pod and parts.

Good thing I'm retired!

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6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Is it really six years since you did the major renovation?  I remember that thread well.

It never ends, does it? Probably a good thing.

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I got an update on a few things.

The regen pods are supposed to arrive in the U.S. in early March, which is good news. I am first on the list, so I'm either an early adopter, or an idiot, or both. The folding props will not be available until August. It looks like the price may stay the same.

So my plan is to get the regen pod in March, have it installed, and probably get the folding prop when it becomes available. It should be a DIY swap based on my experience with changing a Torqeedo prop. Of course I'll have to haul the boat, or develop pearl diver lungs.

What could go wrong? :o

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2 hours ago, Bull City said:

I am first on the list, so I'm either an early adopter, or an idiot, or both. The folding props will not be available until August. It looks like the price may stay the same.

Ima waiting for my GameStop play to reach $650. B)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was thinking about how to arrange the battery, charger and control box on the platform I plan to make. The size of the platform will be 26" athwart and 24" fore and aft. The battery's foot print is about 22" X 18". It would be desirable to have the 22" front of the battery face forward so as to access the connections and indicators. There's really no room left for the charger (9.25" X 6.88") and control box (9.25" X 5.10"). I made a mock up with graph paper and cut outs. Even if the "real estate" was a little bigger, the cable turns would be pretty tortured.

So I'm thinking I can mount the charger and control box under the P&S bunk flats (Here). There are two lids on each flat that access the space underneath. The spaces have ventilation holes. It should be very easy to route the various cables and wires to the pod and battery.

IMG_1582.thumb.jpg.d874ef6425c77ae38a6d9e2b59c43fb7.jpg

Red = Battery, Purple = Pod, Blue = Charger and Control Box

982486212_TopView.thumb.png.5fef4696ddc188eece895e235f42b691.png

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14 hours ago, Bull City said:

The spaces have ventilation holes.

You mean the holes towards the bulkhead aft? 25mm/1inch or so in diameter?

Yeah, that seems like a great option if you don't need the storage space for other things. May be a bit fiddly to get the cables in place depending on the connector and you mentioned you don't have the expertise to make your own? The technician you want to hand the installation to should be able to do that though and then it is a non issue.
Personally finally sprang some money for a set of proper tools and will adjust things while crawled in there and the lazarette. :)

One thing, I currently have mounted the charger in the area via two wood strips glued to the bulkhead with Sika something for non destructive removal if I ever need to. Then screwed the electronics to that. Avoids drilling holes, is easy to make and still looks neat.

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32 minutes ago, allweather said:

You mean the holes towards the bulkhead aft? 25mm/1inch or so in diameter? I think so. There are some holes in the bunk riser, visible in the cabin about that size for ventilation, however, there would need to be some new holes for the cables.

Yeah, that seems like a great option if you don't need the storage space for other things. May be a bit fiddly to get the cables in place depending on the connector and you mentioned you don't have the expertise to make your own? The technician you want to hand the installation to should be able to do that though and then it is a non issue. Personally finally sprang some money for a set of proper tools and will adjust things while crawled in there and the lazarette. :) I don't use the space. It's out of the way, but not too hard to reach if needed.

One thing, I currently have mounted the charger in the area via two wood strips glued to the bulkhead with Sika something for non destructive removal if I ever need to. Then screwed the electronics to that. Avoids drilling holes, is easy to make and still looks neat. I was thinking about the same method for the charger and control box.

Allweather, how did you secure the battery box in the storage area?

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By not taking photos as of yet ;)
I have cut wooden blocks to size, basically three dimensional wedges, so that the topside gives me a flat mounting surface. One block will be glued with 3M on each side of the space right beside the bunk riser so that the flat board/battery holder sits flush. Then going to screw the board into these blocks.

I may be at the boat this week. Depends if we get a mini blizzard... If I can manage I'll take a picture.

1 hour ago, Bull City said:

however, there would need to be some new holes for the cables.

You should check that if you have the opportunity. I distinctively remember that exactly those holes are not only in the cabin but also all the way in the back near the throughholes. Maybe you can get around new drilling.(unless it is about the plugs, then cutting small holes should be preferable)

We don't really use the space anymore either. But back when going on a trip for 2 weeks with four people things were stuffed everywhere.
Since I am not sure if I'll do trips like that again on my own installation I'm avoiding that option. If only for fear of accidentally pushing stuff into the cables since I do like to use them for clothes. Then again, a simple thin bulkhead/insert would take care of that if it was a risk.

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2 hours ago, allweather said:

You should check that if you have the opportunity. I distinctively remember that exactly those holes are not only in the cabin but also all the way in the back near the throughholes. Maybe you can get around new drilling.(unless it is about the plugs, then cutting small holes should be preferable)

Here's a photo showing the space. The red lines are where the front of the storage bin would be. I plan to use this again to cover up the battery, probably with magnetic catch plates to keep it in position. As you can see, there don't appear to be any vent holes near the battery - at least on my 1980 Artekno boat.

1337537726_ventholes.thumb.jpg.04e8fbb6648c993ad6672e863359ad74.jpg

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4 minutes ago, Bull City said:

1980 Artekno boat.

Hey, our hulls come from the same shipyard! Do you know your hull number by chance? For curiousity's sake.(1003 in '79 for me)

Looks like I am mistaken about the hole position. That picture is really good though. Imagine 2x4s cut into a trapeze to fit into the corners basically for a base to bolt into.

I am always of two minds for magnets. If it works out it is really, really neat and you can do some very nifty things with them.
But getting the fit not perfectly right? Or a bit more violent boat motion? Suddenly panels crashing to the ground.

How about using ball latches like often seen in cabinets?

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3 hours ago, allweather said:

Hey, our hulls come from the same shipyard! Do you know your hull number by chance? For curiousity's sake.(1003 in '79 for me) The only thing I have is an IYRU plate in one of the cockpit lockers. 1097?

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_3c1f.thumb.jpg.5d16ad71f9ea1b0aa1285623fbc31e06.jpg

Looks like I am mistaken about the hole position. That picture is really good though. Imagine 2x4s cut into a trapeze to fit into the corners basically for a base to bolt into. See below.

I am always of two minds for magnets. If it works out it is really, really neat and you can do some very nifty things with them. But getting the fit not perfectly right? Or a bit more violent boat motion? Suddenly panels crashing to the ground. How about using ball latches like often seen in cabinets? I'm using a magnet on the lower cabinet doors between the v-berth and the saloon berth. It works fine. We don't get violent boat motion on our lake.

On the 2 X 4s, would you mount them along the bottom of the bunk risers as shown here?

1335827572_2X4.thumb.jpg.40e22820ce761f9c0101c29d99648957.jpg

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That's the one, funny how small the world can be! Though your hull plaque still looks really good. My own is corroded pretty badly but I still have the measurement papers.

The position you highlighted is what I meant. Maybe a little more towards the centerline so that the blocks can be a bit thicker and accept longer screws. Wait, I'll draw a quick reference.(won't see the boat till weekend afterall)

 

battery_box_mounting.jpg

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I have been thinking about recharging the battery while moored in the slip. My slip has a 110v outlet. I can run an extension cord from the dock outlet to the cockpit, and thence to the charger in a weatherproof spot under the cockpit. The problem is at the dock. The outlet has a cover that closes when not in use, but it's  not very weatherproof when in use.

I found a $10.00 outlet cover which is designed to do the trick.  I asked the marina owner about it and offered to pay for the installation, but he said "Per rules and regs we can't alter whats there." I'm a bit disappointed. This may mean that I have to move to a slip with 30 amp power, that I really don't need, which will cost more.

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11 hours ago, Bull City said:

...The problem is at the dock. The outlet has a cover that closes when not in use, but it's  not very weatherproof when in use...

A bit of freshwater - i.e. from rain, etc. - is not likely to cause much drama, although it might trip the GFCI from time to time. Saltwater on the other hand...

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12 hours ago, Bull City said:

I have been thinking about recharging the battery while moored in the slip. My slip has a 110v outlet. I can run an extension cord from the dock outlet to the cockpit, and thence to the charger in a weatherproof spot under the cockpit. The problem is at the dock. The outlet has a cover that closes when not in use, but it's  not very weatherproof when in use.

I found a $10.00 outlet cover which is designed to do the trick.  I asked the marina owner about it and offered to pay for the installation, but he said "Per rules and regs we can't alter whats there." I'm a bit disappointed. This may mean that I have to move to a slip with 30 amp power, that I really don't need, which will cost more.

Why did you ask? Take a screwdriver and about 60 seconds to do the swap. 

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3 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:

Why did you ask? Take a screwdriver and about 60 seconds to do the swap. 

Well, for two reasons: First, it's not my slip, I just rent it. If I were the owner, I wouldn't want tenants messing around either. That doesn't mean I agree with the owner, but it is his marina. Second, to install the cover, you need to open the box (according to the video), and that means you have to shut off power to the box, and I don't know how to do that.

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18 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Well, for two reasons: First, it's not my slip, I just rent it. If I were the owner, I wouldn't want tenants messing around either. That doesn't mean I agree with the owner, but it is his marina. Second, to install the cover, you need to open the box (according to the video), and that means you have to shut off power to the box, and I don't know how to do that.

perhaps he would be ok with you taping a plastic bag over the exsisting outlet?

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1 hour ago, chester said:

perhaps he would be ok with you taping a plastic bag over the existing outlet?

I am thinking about that. Here's our exchange so far:

ME: There may be some times when I’d like to leave the 110 power plugged into my boat to charge a battery. I want to do it safely. I saw this weatherproof cover and thought it would do the trick. If I supplied the cover, could one of your guys or your electrician install it? I would be glad to pay the cost.

HIM: Per rules and regs we can't alter whats there.

ME: Is there some other way I can charge the battery when I’m away?

HIM: Not according to code.  I don't personally have an issue with it as long as its not long term and I don't get any complaints. 

ME: To be honest, it’s going to be long term. The battery is for my propulsion. I’ll be charging it while I’m away from the boat. Do I need to look at a slip with shore power?

I may just do the plastic bag, and if he raises a concern, deal with it then. 

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5 hours ago, Bull City said:

I don't personally have an issue with it as long as its not long term and I don't get any complaints.

Chester's idea of a bag sounds like a good way to deal without altering the actual structure.
How about getting one sewn up to make it look a bit more professional than plastic and avoid pepople wondering if it is supposed to be there?

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8 minutes ago, allweather said:

Chester's idea of a bag sounds like a good way to deal without altering the actual structure.
How about getting one sewn up to make it look a bit more professional than plastic and avoid pepople wondering if it is supposed to be there?

Yes, I like the idea. Much better than an old bread bag. Where does one go to get such a thing? Amazon?

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@Bull Cityand @allweather I was being snarky about the bag...taking a dig at the owner BUT a nice sleeve over would work a treat!  small gear bags for canoing and such?https://www.google.com/search?q=dry+bag+stuff+sack&rlz=1C1GCEV_enCA915CA916&oq=dry+bag+stuff+sack&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30l2j0i390l2.11699j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

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Gear bag sounds like an option for a sleeve. Really depends on how exactly your outlet is mounted?

I was thinking of one of those small thermal bags for medication as an alternative. Otherwise i have a neoprene bag/sleeve for my tablet and that looks pretty marine. Getting a „box“ sewn from neoprene could work? 

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@chester That's a great idea. Neat looking, not a huge investment, and very usable if I have to take it off. I really don't get the objection to the plastic outlet cover. It's not really altering what's there, it's just adding a UL approved accessory. I may talk a little further with him. Maybe he's reluctant to put something in an email.

@Ishmael This is a very posh marina - no Ziploc bags allowed. :P 

If I have to move to a slip with 30 amp shore power, it's not the end of the world, just a PITA.

 

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36 minutes ago, Bull City said:

@chester That's a great idea. Neat looking, not a huge investment, and very usable if I have to take it off. I really don't get the objection to the plastic outlet cover. It's not really altering what's there, it's just adding a UL approved accessory. I may talk a little further with him. Maybe he's reluctant to put something in an email.

@Ishmael This is a very posh marina - no Ziploc bags allowed. :P 

If I have to move to a slip with 30 amp shore power, it's not the end of the world, just a PITA.

 

I agree. He seems just against any change, even reasonable and safer ones.  The flat covers are by code intended for temp us and covered when nothing is plugged in to block rain, wash water, etc. for something plugged in continuously, the cover you have identified is what should be used. Installing is removing the current outlet cover and slipping the new on over the 2 screws. With a plastic or wooden handled screwdriver and a pair of rubber gloves, not really dangerous to do change it hot. 110 VAC isn’t that dangerous unless you ground a high amp  feed. If the outlet is a GFCI, just pop that with the test button and reset when you are done. 
 

As someone said before, fresh water really isn’t much of a conductor (it why underwater electrocution is more likely in fresh waters than salt as our bodies conduct better than fresh water and worse than salt as conductors. My pier has old uncovered outlets and I only rarely get a GFCI pop in heavy rain and they pop at levels you would never feel. 
 

Are other boats routinely plugging in overnight on this dock?  

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53 minutes ago, Innocent Bystander said:

I agree. He seems just against any change, even reasonable and safer ones.  The flat covers are by code intended for temp us and covered when nothing is plugged in to block rain, wash water, etc. for something plugged in continuously, the cover you have identified is what should be used. Installing is removing the current outlet cover and slipping the new on over the 2 screws. With a plastic or wooden handled screwdriver and a pair of rubber gloves, not really dangerous to do change it hot. 110 VAC isn’t that dangerous unless you ground a high amp  feed. If the outlet is a GFCI, just pop that with the test button and reset when you are done.

The box that is there now has two outlets with GFCIs and covers that swing up. If you had them open in a driving rain, they would likely get water in them. So I understand that something better is needed.

From the TayMac video on Amazon, it does look pretty easy to install. As you suggested, I made the mistake of asking. Now I have to live with his answer - no good deed goes unpunished. I think it's worth having a chat with him.

As someone said before, fresh water really isn’t much of a conductor (it why underwater electrocution is more likely in fresh waters than salt as our bodies conduct better than fresh water and worse than salt as conductors. My pier has old uncovered outlets and I only rarely get a GFCI pop in heavy rain and they pop at levels you would never feel. 

Are other boats routinely plugging in overnight on this dock?  Some slips have 30 or 50 amp shore power outlets, and many of those boats routinely plug in overnight, particularly on weekends (TV, HVAC). I don't know about the slips like mine that have only 110. I'll have to snoop around a bit.

 

 

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2 hours ago, chester said:

having been a good, responsible person and talked to the dude up front, is the now their no path to the "beg for forgiveness" defense?

If you mean do what he said he couldn't do and then beg forgiveness, I would say it's not in my DNA. 

I've got at least a month or so before this becomes an issue. I'll either talk to him again, or try the gear bag. If he says something about the bag, I'll suggest the UL approved plastic cover again. There's always the 30 amp shore power as a last resort.

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7 minutes ago, Bull City said:

If you mean do what he said he couldn't do and then beg forgiveness, I would say it's not in my DNA. 

I've got at least a month or so before this becomes an issue. I'll either talk to him again, or try the gear bag. If he says something about the bag, I'll suggest the UL approved plastic cover again. There's always the 30 amp shore power as a last resort.

How much extra is the shore power? Is it a better slip?

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the irony being that the cover, being UL approved, is fire resistant and should be self extinguishing, whereas a gear bag would probably burn nicely.

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10 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

How much extra is the shore power? Is it a better slip?

I'm not sure about the cost - I think it's a few hundred per year, certainly more than the cost of the battery charging. As far as it being a better slip, they're all pretty much the same.  I'll have to look around and see if there are any available right now.

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This might be my Irish ancestory talking, or a learned behavior of how to get away with things at USNA, but I would not say boo to the owner.  Just let it die and not be an issue.  Once you've installed the epod drive, change the cover one night.  As IB says, trip the test on the GFI breaker, switch the cover, and reset.  If he ever even notices, which OBTW is highly unlikely, you give him the "Ensign Salute" and say, "I thought, after you'd given it some consideration, that you must have decided it was ok and changed it for me..."

I'll be back on the East Coast next week, and again in June.  If you take me sailing, I'll come change it for you...and not tell you I did it.:rolleyes:

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I've got a general electric propulsion question. Several months ago I was motoring with my Torqeedo on a glassy day, and recorded the following Watts at the indicated speeds:

Knots    Watts
4.0         810
3.0         400
3.5         560
2.0         110 

In general, with the same boat and conditions, with the 3.0 Pod, should I be using the same Watts at those speeds?
 

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To a first approximation, yes. The motor, battery, and electronics inbetween are going to be comparably efficient. The biggest variable has to do with prop efficiency, since that dictates how power at the motor translates to motive power. However, it looks like both ePropulsion and Torqueedo use the same number of blades, diameter, and roughly the same pitch, so I wouldn't expect huge differences. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/10/2021 at 8:24 PM, Bull City said:

I have been thinking about recharging the battery while moored in the slip. My slip has a 110v outlet. I can run an extension cord from the dock outlet to the cockpit, and thence to the charger in a weatherproof spot under the cockpit. The problem is at the dock. The outlet has a cover that closes when not in use, but it's  not very weatherproof when in use.

I found a $10.00 outlet cover which is designed to do the trick.  I asked the marina owner about it and offered to pay for the installation, but he said "Per rules and regs we can't alter whats there." I'm a bit disappointed. This may mean that I have to move to a slip with 30 amp power, that I really don't need, which will cost more.

I must have taken a blow to the head, probably with a Thagomizer:

image.png.a3950205b039cbe4f2270f68cd28304d.png

I actually took a thorough look at my slip's 110 dock outlet, and it is exactly the same f**king thing I wanted to buy, except it's not transparent. I even plugged my cord into it and closed the cover. DUH.

- Thag Simmons

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3 hours ago, Bull City said:

I must have taken a blow to the head, probably with a Thagomizer:

image.png.a3950205b039cbe4f2270f68cd28304d.png

I actually took a thorough look at my slip's 110 dock outlet, and it is exactly the same f**king thing I wanted to buy, except it's not transparent. I even plugged my cord into it and closed the cover. DUH.

- Thag Simmons

That part of a dinosaur is now officially known as the thagomizer, thanks to that cartoon.

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3 hours ago, Bull City said:

I must have taken a blow to the head, probably with a Thagomizer:

image.png.a3950205b039cbe4f2270f68cd28304d.png

I actually took a thorough look at my slip's 110 dock outlet, and it is exactly the same f**king thing I wanted to buy, except it's not transparent. I even plugged my cord into it and closed the cover. DUH.

- Thag Simmons

go ahead and cross it off your list:  "solve plugin issue" ...check. :)

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Battery Tray

I had thought to use PT wood, however, a very smart friend suggested that I make this out of G10 rather than wood. It's much more expensive, but probably wise. This is where the tray will go:

image.png.e3c87bba0c8968f082da93e5b67d295c.png

It's 26" across from one red line to the other, and about 24" front to back. The through hulls will not interfere. That is large enough for the 108 lb. battery. I'm thinking of using a 26" X 24" piece of 1/2" G10 to span the space. I would stiffen it with two or three 1" joist-type beams that would rest where the bunk riser meets the hull, where the red dotted line is.

I think I will glue a ledger board against the bunk riser, shaped so that the bottom edge follows the red line, and the top edge is level. I would make notches in the ledger board to receive the ends of the joists.

The tray and joists would be secured with SS screws rather than glue, in case I need to remove it.

The battery would have to be secured to the tray. I thought I might use some strong nylon strapping that could pass under the tray through some slots, and perhaps some G10 strips glued to the tray running along the side and rear edges of the battery, and maybe one along the front edge, fastened with screws for removal.

I'd be interested in your comments and suggestions.

Thanks.

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Here is an install I did a couple of years ago, The box is ply then glassed, and painted with Proline epoxy there are eight batteries

for the motor and two house batteries in the box you see cleats holding the batteries in place and on the house batteries there is a webbing strap tide W/ spectra

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18 hours ago, andykane said:

Personally I would stick with plywood - lighter, cheaper, easier to work. Presumably this isn't getting wet on a regular basis, right?

It doesn't get wet, but like every place on a boat, it can be damp. Plywood would could work for the tray itself, but I think G10 would be better for the ledger board and "joists." Even that would save a lot of money.

15 hours ago, Pro looper said:

Here is an install I did a couple of years ago, The box is ply then glassed, and painted with Proline epoxy there are eight batteries

for the motor and two house batteries in the box you see cleats holding the batteries in place and on the house batteries there is a webbing strap tide W/ spectra

That looks very nicely made. I should be so fortunate.

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The ePropulsion dealer put me in touch with a fellow who has a 1KW (3 HP) pod drive on his sailboat. I had a chat with the guy who installed it several days ago, and then spoke to the owner yesterday.

He bought the boat, a Sakonnet 23 (2,000 lb. daysailer with a fixed keel and centerboard), a few years ago. The PO had somehow rigged up a trolling motor like a pod drive. It was unsatisfactory, hence the upgrade. I noticed that the Sakonnet builder offers the ePropulsion 1KW pod as an option.

He and the installer told me that the installation was challenging. On a Sakonnet 23, there is not very much room between the hull and cockpit sole, so placement of the pod was tricky.

He sails on the Chesapeake, and he's very happy with the pod. He didn't recall how many Amp Hours his battery has,  but he has had no range anxiety, even though he has to motor a few miles to his sailing area. The horse power has been fine, he can easily travel at near hull speed in windy conditions. He's had no malfunctions.

The only issue he has is that the when he's sailing, and the prop is spinning, it makes a noise that he found annoying. He was able to stop it by just barely engaging the throttle which stops the prop from spinning. The noise being audible could be the result of the tight area under the cockpit. Anyway, it's another reason for getting the folding prop.

A few other things. His pod drive has been painted with anti-fouling paint. He hauls his boat every winter.

 

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5 hours ago, Bull City said:

The ePropulsion dealer put me in touch with a fellow who has a 1KW (3 HP) pod drive on his sailboat.

Might be a quibble, but only a dealer would describe a 1kW motor as 3HP.

For those challenged by conversions, 1HP is 760 watts. 1kW is 1000 watts. I leave the arithmetic to those with sufficient fingers.

FKT

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Might be a quibble, but only a dealer would describe a 1kW motor as 3HP.

For those challenged by conversions, 1HP is 760 watts. 1kW is 1000 watts. I leave the arithmetic to those with sufficient fingers.

FKT

I think it has something to do with "Racism in Mathematics"

 

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24 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Might be a quibble, but only a dealer would describe a 1kW motor as 3HP.

For those challenged by conversions, 1HP is 760 watts. 1kW is 1000 watts. I leave the arithmetic to those with sufficient fingers.

FKT

I ran across this on the web, and I wonder if we can conclude anything from it.

This from a forum where they were talking about electric vs. ICE for a saw mill:

Horse power - plain and simple - the more HP the quicker the task gets done. 1hp = lifting 33,000lbs 1 foot in 1 minute (this is how HP is figured). A 1 hp electric motor can raise 33,000lbs 1 foot in 1 minute. A 1hp gas engine can raise 33,000lbs 1 foot in 1 minute. They are equal in horsepower, but may require different gearing to do the task.
Here is the part when other people join in to conflict physics.

Horse power – you can't beat it. A 10hp electric motor cannot get the task done quicker than a 18hp gas engine. Output shafts are not equal rpm's. So the gas engine has to reduce the gearing to equal the rpm of the 10 hp motor. That multiplies the torque. And if the 10hp motor geared up to meet the gas engine it would lose torque.

Honda specs for 2.3 HP OB include:

Full Throttle RPM Range    5,000-6,000 RPM
Rated Power    2.3HP (1.7 kW)

eProp specs for 1.0 pod drive include:

Power    1 kW/3 HP
Static Thrust    316 N / 71 lbs
Rated RPM    1200 rpm

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

I ran across this on the web, and I wonder if we can conclude anything from it.

This from a forum where they were talking about electric vs. ICE for a saw mill:

Horse power - plain and simple - the more HP the quicker the task gets done. 1hp = lifting 33,000lbs 1 foot in 1 minute (this is how HP is figured). A 1 hp electric motor can raise 33,000lbs 1 foot in 1 minute. A 1hp gas engine can raise 33,000lbs 1 foot in 1 minute. They are equal in horsepower, but may require different gearing to do the task.
Here is the part when other people join in to conflict physics.

Horse power – you can't beat it. A 10hp electric motor cannot get the task done quicker than a 18hp gas engine. Output shafts are not equal rpm's. So the gas engine has to reduce the gearing to equal the rpm of the 10 hp motor. That multiplies the torque. And if the 10hp motor geared up to meet the gas engine it would lose torque.

Honda specs for 2.3 HP OB include:

Full Throttle RPM Range    5,000-6,000 RPM
Rated Power    2.3HP (1.7 kW)

eProp specs for 1.0 pod drive include:

Power    1 kW/3 HP
Static Thrust    316 N / 71 lbs
Rated RPM    1200 rpm

I hate it when all these units get mixed up. Horsepower, torque, different RPM, rubbish about how many horses equal a kilowatt.

FWIW I can buy a 10HP 2900 rpm electric motor and I can buy a 10HP 720 rpm motor, all depends on the number of poles the thing is built with. Generally the choices are 2, 4, 6 & 8 for common ones.

Not saying anything against an electric pod drive, FWIW - I think your use case fits electric drives quite nicely.

FKT

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This is kind of interesting. Whatever HP I'm getting from my Torqeedo, I should get 2X from the ePropulsion Pod, based on static thrust.

                                           HP        Power: Input/ Propulsive     Static Thrust (lbs)

Torqeedo 1003               3.0                       1000/480 W                       68

eProp Pod 3.0                 6.0                       3000/? W                          132

 

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14 hours ago, Bull City said:

interesting.

Interesting in what sense?
Static thrust should be the one most useful for your application, right? Quickly stopping the boat or accelerating out of the box in sidewind conditions.

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On 2/27/2021 at 10:12 PM, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Might be a quibble, but only a dealer would describe a 1kW motor as 3HP.

There are already all kind of Horsepowers : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

Here we even have a "fiscal horsepower" to determine how much tax you pay on a motor vehicle!!!

One more, one less who cares ?

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9 hours ago, allweather said:

Interesting in what sense?
Static thrust should be the one most useful for your application, right? Quickly stopping the boat or accelerating out of the box in sidewind conditions.

I thought it was going to be interesting when I started the post, but it didn't end up that way. I thought I was going to find apples-to-apples comparison of electric pods or outboards to a gasoline outboard. How naive of me.

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57 minutes ago, Bull City said:

How naive of me.

More like apple and pineapple ;)

I wouldn't even necessarily blame the suppliers since things do depend on gearing, the propeller and hull speed for the various scenarios.
Or differently put, why my 6hp petrol outboard doesn't actually push the boat with 6hp. For that I'd need to buy a thrust propeller.(can order here with four, large and low pitch blades)

Similar the bigger pod motors is probably scaled for different speed ranges and we don't really have curves for either of them. Do we?
Those would be really useful to have, but I don't think anyone, much less small outboard companies, actually post those.

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What we really need for a fair comparison is a Thurst vs. Boat Speed chart/table. How much thrust do you get at what boat speed? That's what matters, doesn't it? I am NOT saying it is easy to measure though...

As an engineer, it is really upsetting seeing ALL electric propulsion manufactures balloon their HP conversion figures from the "true" motor kW rating... I know, I know, with electric propulsion, you have more torque at low RPM, where that matters, etc... but stil... They all lose credibility by doing so, IMHO.

I understand that if you look at thrust vs. boatspeed, it is not only the "prime mover" that you evaluate (being electric motor, or outboard engine), but also the propeller selection. It is one more variable in a complex system, but it is what matters, the complete system!

 

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I don't think that this is easy to get but Power in kW at the shaft at max rpm and kW at the shaft at say 50% max rpm would give you a good idea of respectively max boat speed and how much "bite" you get in a harbour situation when you want to stop/start the boat.

If you choose a petrol engine and an electric one with the same power rating - assuming both manufacturers were honest - you will get the same max power value but the electric one will win at 50% rpm. That is because torque out of an electric engine is nearly constant thus power is nearly linear whereas a petrol engine has little torque at low rpm. That is also why when you drive a petrol car in a mountainous area you need to downshift after each hairpin...

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On 3/2/2021 at 5:14 PM, Laurent said:

What we really need for a fair comparison is a Thurst vs. Boat Speed chart/table. How much thrust do you get at what boat speed? That's what matters, doesn't it? I am NOT saying it is easy to measure though...

As an engineer, it is really upsetting seeing ALL electric propulsion manufactures balloon their HP conversion figures from the "true" motor kW rating... I know, I know, with electric propulsion, you have more torque at low RPM, where that matters, etc... but stil... They all lose credibility by doing so, IMHO.

I understand that if you look at thrust vs. boatspeed, it is not only the "prime mover" that you evaluate (being electric motor, or outboard engine), but also the propeller selection. It is one more variable in a complex system, but it is what matters, the complete system!

 

 

Yeah, you'd have to pick a "standard" or series of "standard" boats to do this on, so that you could compare apples to apples.  Otherwise difference in hull, keel and rudders will have a impact...

As you say, its not as simple as "horsepower, or kW," though within some reason, if companies at least reported that honestly, then you could then calculate the impact of transmissions and prop diameter and pitch...or at least assume for 95% of the engines out there (diesel, gas, electic) there is a combination of gearbox and prop that allows that particular engine to perform at its best on any one type of boat.

I have to admit to getting a bit of a chuckle out of all this "most torque at low speed" equals great power when docking.  Sailboats are relatively slippery, and relatively svelte, in the world of boats (as their "main" source of power is somewhat limited).  Rare is the situation where the engine provides adequate cruise power, but inadequate power for low speed maneuvering when mooring/docking.  A tugboat may need low speed power to get his tow moving, but sailboats?  Really?

That said, I realize there are exceptions out there...big heavy old cruisers with relatively low power/poorly matched props (props in apertures, etc) that would benefit from better low speed torque/thrust...

Still, at the end of the day, 1hp equals 760W or .76kW.  Gearing and prop size/pitch effect how much thrust that 1 hp/.76kW can produce at what rpms...

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