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On 2/26/2021 at 3:07 PM, Bull City said:

Battery Tray

I had thought to use PT wood, however, a very smart friend suggested that I make this out of G10 rather than wood. It's much more expensive, but probably wise. This is where the tray will go:

image.png.e3c87bba0c8968f082da93e5b67d295c.png

It's 26" across from one red line to the other, and about 24" front to back. The through hulls will not interfere. That is large enough for the 108 lb. battery. I'm thinking of using a 26" X 24" piece of 1/2" G10 to span the space. I would stiffen it with two or three 1" joist-type beams that would rest where the bunk riser meets the hull, where the red dotted line is.

I think I will glue a ledger board against the bunk riser, shaped so that the bottom edge follows the red line, and the top edge is level. I would make notches in the ledger board to receive the ends of the joists.

The tray and joists would be secured with SS screws rather than glue, in case I need to remove it.

The battery would have to be secured to the tray. I thought I might use some strong nylon strapping that could pass under the tray through some slots, and perhaps some G10 strips glued to the tray running along the side and rear edges of the battery, and maybe one along the front edge, fastened with screws for removal.

I'd be interested in your comments and suggestions.

Thanks.

 

On 2/26/2021 at 3:18 PM, andykane said:

Personally I would stick with plywood - lighter, cheaper, easier to work. Presumably this isn't getting wet on a regular basis, right?

I think I'll use ¾" G10 for the ledger boards/beam shelves, and for the three beams which will span athwart ships. I'll use notches, kind of like this, but the bottom of the ledger board will have a slight curve to meet the intersection of the bunk riser and hull.

2036430169_YeWKUkTRS8iVWvCovB0A_thumb_57f8.thumb.jpg.816651a0bf7dc9c7d6bcc5fd010df986.jpg

The ledger boards will be resting on the hull, so the weight of the battery will too. This should kind of lock everything together. 

To save weight and $$$, the battery tray will be plywood, probably ½", sealed with varnish. I'll make some wood cleats to keep the battery from sliding around, and add a nylon strap. The only adhesive will be to secure the ledger boards to the bunk riser. The rest will be SS fasteners.

Do y'all think I should add some blocking between the battery and the bunk risers? The idea being that in the event of a knock down, there would be something solid to keep the battery in place.

I think I'm going to make a mock-up of the beams and ledger board out of ¾" plywood so that I can get an exact fit before cutting the G10. So, I've got some patterns to make for the ledger boards. 

As I mentioned, the space for the battery has a FG storage bin which slides out. It has a nice teak drawer face, which I can remove and use to cover the opening. Probably some magnetic catches will do the trick.

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That's a fallacy promoted by makers of electric propulsion. 1 HP = 746 Watts = 0.746 kW. That is the definition of what a HP is! The output of outboard motors is measured at the prop shaft so the

Crash, I truly appreciate your concern. One of the things I'm having the yard do is to remove the OB bracket and restore the transom to its virginal innocence. I hated putting the bracket on it 6+ yea

Something interesting and exciting for a change. First, the boat is scheduled to be hauled and taken to the yard this Thursday (May 13th ). Second, we thought it would be a good idea to test ever

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G10 is strong enough that you could use 1/4" G10 in place of the 1/2" plywood for the battery tray and just epoxy it all together at about the same weight. 

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Just now, IStream said:

G10 is strong enough that you could use 1/4" G10 in place of the 1/2" plywood for the battery tray and just epoxy it all together at about the same weight and no need to varnish. 

 

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Bull, if it was me, I;d want to have the battery secure enough to handle a rollover.  I know you're on a lake, but 48kg of solid box is a lot weight.  Wouldn't want that to break lose in any circumstances

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2 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Bull, if it was me, I;d want to have the battery secure enough to handle a rollover.  I know you're on a lake, but 48kg of solid box is a lot weight.  Wouldn't want that to break lose in any circumstances

So you're in favor of the blocking. I think it makes sense too. The lake is gusty. I had a knockdown in a J22 several years ago, and have had the H-Boat over pretty far as well. I think the blocking would be way better than a nylon strap.

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8 hours ago, Bull City said:

It appears that communication up and down the distribution channel is not very good.

It's funny, I was quite content with the later delivery date. I would have spring sailing, which is usually very nice, and would miss the height of the summer inferno.

Just because you have it, doesn't mean you have to install it, maybe do your measurements again.......

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32 minutes ago, Fleetwood said:

Just because you have it, doesn't mean you have to install it, maybe do your measurements again.......

That's true. The yard has a big boat in the shop right now. I'm not sure when they'll be able to take me. There's no reason to rush.

Tomorrow I'm going make a template for the ledger board profile and get more measurements in order to make a mock-up of the battery tray. It would be nice to have the actual tray built, and the ledger boards installed before the boat is hauled. 

 

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28 minutes ago, Bull City said:

That's true. The yard has a big boat in the shop right now. I'm not sure when they'll be able to take me. There's no reason to rush.

Tomorrow I'm going make a template for the ledger board profile and get more measurements in order to make a mock-up of the battery tray. It would be nice to have the actual tray built, and the ledger boards installed before the boat is hauled. 

 

you've got seven things to do tomorrow?

 

 

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$$$ is on the way to the dealer.

I made a template of the bunk riser the other day - the area shown in the photo. The bottom edge is actually a slight curve. I'm glad I did.

I knew vertical clearance would diminish as I moved aft, but it did so more than I thought. The battery will still fit, but the height of the ledger board will and the aftermost beam will have to shrink to 1.5"

1969378277_InstallSpaceriser.thumb.jpg.7cbffe4f16187cdbbd1b841c9516bad9.jpg

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I encountered that too. When stuck with the head in there it is easy to miss how much the hull rises and moves in in the area.

Good to see the progress you're making!

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21 hours ago, Bull City said:

$$$ is on the way to the dealer.

I made a template of the bunk riser the other day - the area shown in the photo. The bottom edge is actually a slight curve. I'm glad I did.

I knew vertical clearance would diminish as I moved aft, but it did so more than I thought. The battery will still fit, but the height of the ledger board will and the aftermost beam will have to shrink to 1.5"

1969378277_InstallSpaceriser.thumb.jpg.7cbffe4f16187cdbbd1b841c9516bad9.jpg

BC, can you access the cockpit drain valves from above or around your installation?

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27 minutes ago, chester said:

BC, can you access the cockpit drain valves from above or around your installation?

Yes. If I crawl back on the settees, I can reach the valve pretty easily. The battery will not be in the way.

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

@chester And thank you for raising that question. It's important, and just the kind of thing that can be overlooked.

whew,  after I wrote it I worried I may have insulted you with my stupidity!  "really, Chester?  I HADN"T thought of that <super duper eye rolling smilie>"  :D

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I just found out the pod drive, battery, etc. is on its way to the boat yard. Hooray! I've been thinking about something new:

Anodes

I've never had a boat with an inboard engine or any need of anodes. The pod drive appears to have a little anode on the propeller shaft (see pic). I will be sailing in a freshwater lake. The boat slips have power. I am not aware of any stray current. I think I might order a spare anode, just in case. Thoughts? Suggestions?

 

anode.thumb.png.491684cacec4e9a0651369b65a9eb06c.png

 

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If you will be connected to shore power to charge the battery for your pod, you may want to look into a galvanic isolator as well. Stray current corrosion can eat up anodes pretty quickly.

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4 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

If you will be connected to shore power to charge the battery for your pod, you may want to look into a galvanic isolator as well. Stray current corrosion can eat up anodes pretty quickly.

I will and I will. Thank you.

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Bull,  I'm partner in a steel canal boat in France.  I know that we require a different metal anode than if we were in salt water.  Magnesium or something.   Your boat is not steel so maybe there is less of an issue with you.  I think the manufacturer of your drive is European.  I'd assume they will have some experience with *fresh non-saltwater regarding electrolysis, maybe more than your local dealer.  I'd contact them.

 

*Canal water is far from fresh.

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6 minutes ago, eric1207 said:

Bull,  I'm partner in a steel canal boat in France.  I know that we require a different metal anode than if we were in salt water.  Magnesium or something.   Your boat is not steel so maybe there is less of an issue with you.  I think the manufacturer of your drive is European.  I'd assume they will have some experience with *fresh non-saltwater regarding electrolysis, maybe more than your local dealer.  I'd contact them.

 

*Canal water is far from fresh.

* Very funny.

The manufacturer is Chinese, and bit difficult to get in touch with - they like their distributor/dealer network. I did ask the dealer, who is based in Annapolis, and they said fresh water should not be a problem, but to check it after 6 months.

I'm going to discuss it with the yard that's going to install it. They have a lot of experience with the electrical side of things.

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2 hours ago, Bull City said:

* Very funny.

The manufacturer is Chinese, and bit difficult to get in touch with - they like their distributor/dealer network. I did ask the dealer, who is based in Annapolis, and they said fresh water should not be a problem, but to check it after 6 months.

I'm going to discuss it with the yard that's going to install it. They have a lot of experience with the electrical side of things.

If you are going to be plugged in a lot a galvanic isolator is a good thing to have and not horribly expensive. I put one in after a $1K rebuild on my Max Prop. Strangely enough, the best price by far was from Amazon.

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12 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

If you are going to be plugged in a lot a galvanic isolator is a good thing to have and not horribly expensive. I put one in after a $1K rebuild on my Max Prop. Strangely enough, the best price by far was from Amazon.

Me, I'd rather install an isolation transformer. 

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Chatted with a friend at our marina who knows his stuff. He has never had to replace a zinc/anode in years, nor have other owners that he has talked to. His boat, 35', and many other 30'+ stay plugged in. His, and some have galvanic isolators. I've raised the question with the boat yard.

I'm planning to plug in to the existing 110v system. Do they make isolators for that?

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4 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Chatted with a friend at our marina who knows his stuff. He has never had to replace a zinc/anode in years, nor have other owners that he has talked to. His boat, 35', and many other 30'+ stay plugged in. His, and some have galvanic isolators. I've raised the question with the boat yard.

I'm planning to plug in to the existing 110v system. Do they make isolators for that?

Yes, all you have to do is interrupt the green wire on board. This is the unit I got: 

https://www.promariner.com/en/22034.

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I recall I bought it for less than $250 CAD. I was startled by the price.

IIRC, the first generation of those things were just diodes and a capacitor. They were cheap. The ABYC standard that came out after the market for them developed seems to require much more sophisticated and expensive devices.

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1 hour ago, weightless said:

IIRC, the first generation of those things were just diodes and a capacitor. They were cheap. The ABYC standard that came out after the market for them developed seems to require much more sophisticated and expensive devices.

Yes, these were top recommended at the time, still seem to be popular at twice the price. The fail safe is a nice feature.

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If you understand what you're doing, you can build an isolator for $20 in parts (a couple of bridge rectifier diodes, some connectors, wire & a heat sink). The result will NOT meet the ABYC standard and WILL require occasional testing to ensure that your green wire ground is still protecting your  boat or rather,  the people on it. Lots of good info on Maine Sails's page, but unless you are the competent DIY type, best to just ante up for the approved ProMariner or similar.

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3 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

If you understand what you're doing...

That leaves me out. :D

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Having spent several thousands of dollars on the pod and installation, it seems that wise money would spend several hundreds to protect that investment...B)

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

Having spent several thousands of dollars on the pod and installation, it seems that wise money would spend several hundreds to protect that investment...B)

I do plan to protect the investment. I hope I've been clear on that.

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

Having spent several thousands of dollars on the pod and installation, it seems that wise money would spend several hundreds to protect that investment...B)

Yep.

I was just grumbling a bit that the marine versions have evolved from small, sealed, waterproof units costing tens of dollars to large, unsealed, metal cased units costing hundreds of dollars. Sometimes progress is hard to understand. I scanned the ABYC standard a while ago. It's... a standard. So it goes.

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If SOME of the boats in the marina are not eating zincs and they do not have galvanic isolators then there is probably no issue to solve.

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Might be a stupid question, but do you have the same galvonic worries in freshwater that you have in Seawater?  The safety factor still worth it for swimmers etc bit don't know about the potential for eating stuff via electrolysis.

 

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3 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Might be a stupid question, but do you have the same galvonic worries in freshwater that you have in Seawater?  The safety factor still worth it for swimmers etc bit don't know about the potential for eating stuff via electrolysis.

 

My understanding is that fresh water pose much less worry than salt water.

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5 minutes ago, weightless said:

Do galvanic isolators on the ground increase safety for people in the water per se?

That's my understanding, regardless of the electrolysis, there is no path so the dock boat zap is less likely.  I think ABYC has some articles, could be wrong though.

I would guess a scenerio would be bad stray current via one boat at dock someone climbs on non isolated boat and makes connection, something like that.

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Once the voltage in the water exceeds the diode drop of the galvanic isolator, it'll conduct just fine. The only way to really make a zap less likely is to use an isolation transformer.

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I wonder if calling these things "isolaters" isn't a bit grand? I think the function is just to block very low voltage DC on the ground wire.

Along these lines, no?

L ------------------ L
N ------------------ N
GND ---|
---|<---|--- GND
       |--->|---|
       |---||---|

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4 minutes ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Yes as Jim said could easily do yourself but big liability can of worms.  The xfmr is full meal deal bullet proof.

Okay. Got it. I think the "isolation" term in common with isolation transformer and galvanic isolater is confusing. It took me a couple of posts to notice that we'd started discussing transformers, too. 

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Without too much thread drift there is plenty of info on other threads. I think the basics are if rarely connected to shore power galvonic isolated only costing small$ is a good idea, if plugged in most of the time at the dock and the weight is not a issue isolation xfmr is worth it at a bit more $$. Still only hundreds so not crazy spendy.

We have almost no ac load but end up spending several months a year at random marinas so we'll worth it to not worry.

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Almost everything arrived at the boatyard last week. I'm going down on Saturday to have a look. The only pieces that are missing are the Top Mount Controller and its cable. The dealer is aware of this.

I would like to have those in hand before hauling the boat and starting work. I would hate to have a boat with a brand new pod drive, ready to go, but with the controller on back order. I've asked the dealer to give me an idea of when I might expect it.

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That would be somewhat annoying. On the other hand having everything but the controller installed and the boat in the water just waiting to plug it in and play?

Then again testing on the dry just in case of any unforseen malfunction is important. Imagine for some reason the pod not working while the hull is in the water...

how are conditions in your area now anyway? I jumped the gun and went in early. Had a few very nice, downright hot, days too. The last few then had storm winds and literally sunshine and hail storms(1cm of ice on occasion) every other hour. 

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13 minutes ago, allweather said:

how are conditions in your area now anyway?

The weather is very "changeable" right now. I play soccer twice a week with some over 60 guys on Tuesday and Friday mornings. Last Friday, it was 27º F and windy; I stayed in bed. :D  Today, it's 80º. The pollen is falling and covering everything. We need some rain to wash it away.

I went for a nice sunny sail yesterday. It was about 80º and the wind was light and variable. I saw some low-flying geese headed north.

Spring weather seems very volatile.

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24 minutes ago, allweather said:

That would be somewhat annoying. On the other hand having everything but the controller installed and the boat in the water just waiting to plug it in and play?

Then again testing on the dry just in case of any unforseen malfunction is important. Imagine for some reason the pod not working while the hull is in the water...

 

It's tempting to go ahead and have the boat hauled now, especially since there are some other things on the work list, and hope that the controller shows up soon. 

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5 hours ago, Bull City said:

It's tempting to go ahead and have the boat hauled now, especially since there are some other things on the work list, and hope that the controller shows up soon. 

Well, technically, even if you’ve got everything but the controller, what is different from what you’re doing now?  I’m assuming that can be installed while in the water, yes?  At least you only lose a minimal number of sailing days and you’re ready whenever the controller shows up...

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8 hours ago, Bull City said:

It's tempting to go ahead and have the boat hauled now, especially since there are some other things on the work list, and hope that the controller shows up soon. 

Fingers crossed on that. From your reports they seem to be cautious in stating delivery dates but actually quite fast. Though the habit of forgetting some parts in packaging remains one where the company laggs behind some of the higher end ones. 

Good to know europe isn‘t the only one with some crazy weather right now. 

If only it stayed nice a week longer I could have completed varnishing. Now it is below deck work or nothing as I had to brush of some snow/ice topside. 

Motor works nicely though. Pretty happy with what I consider a prototype. (This thread and the general electric one encouraged me to take the plunge)

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7 hours ago, Veeger said:

Well, technically, even if you’ve got everything but the controller, what is different from what you’re doing now?  I’m assuming that can be installed while in the water, yes?  At least you only lose a minimal number of sailing days and you’re ready whenever the controller shows up...

I have been using an outboard motor (electric for the last 3½ yrs.) which is on a transom mounted bracket. One of the reasons for the pod drive is to rid the otherwise pretty transom of the hideous outboard and bracket.

You're right about installing the controller - it could be done in the water, however, without it, I'd have to rely on the paddle for auxiliary power.

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4 hours ago, allweather said:

Motor works nicely though. Pretty happy with what I consider a prototype. (This thread and the general electric one encouraged me to take the plunge)

Pics?

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Lighting was fairly bad on account of a looming cloudburst but things should be recognizable?

The shaft is a sliding/telescoping one with the fixed portion just touching the water and the prop ending up about 30cm below the surface. Could go a bit deeper extension wise but i don‘t see any benefits at that point(as is no surface movement due to prop turning) and I want to limit torque on the assembly. 

Turning the motor is a bit jerky due to a building mistake, hence working prototype, but still allows me to turn on the spot. 

Notable that the prop really does not like to turn backwards. It works, but with a lot less thrust so that turning the entire motor 180 degrees is the best way to stop if one come‘s in a little hot. 

As is at WoT the motor draws about 1400ish watts and pushes the boat along at 4,5ish knots in calm water. A little slower than the 6ps gas engine(wrong non thrust prop achieved 6,2) but more than fine by me. 

With the installed battery that comfortably gets me four hours or about 18sm with power to spare. Doubt I‘ll have to worry about leaving with a „full tank“ but that will remain to be seen when I get to test some longer distances.(boring, so I haven‘t taken the time yet and sailed more :)

oh, and motored into a 20 or so headwind and still got a comfortable 3kn with some extra power remaining. Useful how hydrodynamics often outweigh aerodynamics when trying to move faster through the water  

Haven‘t yet installed an eyebolt on deck to secure the mechanism against rising because ai don‘t want to drill a hole yet. A rope to an adjacent fastener limits movement sufficiently for now. Though ultimately I do want to move to the former since it also distributes the forces much more evenly. 

Nearly forgot the elastic that makes hauling up managable  could go up one size(8-10mm I believe) but as is I can do it with one arm and a little reaching  two and ease  

Anyway, pictures. 

F2360F97-A065-4118-9605-2E03A52EF363.jpeg

4F95334F-284D-4F55-94C3-E62282E7DCB9.jpeg

613F382B-4F6C-413B-8C46-B53D3C653B98.jpeg

47926779-E458-46CB-910B-64C4184CE1AC.jpeg

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1 hour ago, allweather said:

As is at WoT the motor draws about 1400ish watts and pushes the boat along at 4,5ish knots in calm water. A little slower than the 6ps gas engine(wrong non thrust prop achieved 6,2) but more than fine by me. 

Interesting. What are the details on your battery? Type? Watt Hours? Weight? It's in the storage bin isn't it?

With the Torqeedo Travel 1003, I got about the same speed with WOT. At 4.0 knots, I drew 810 Watts. I'm very curious how the Watt draw compares to the Torqeedo at various speeds.

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Seems like I never took a pic of the finished install. Its behind the storage bin(bin now pulled further forwards by about 25cm. Just under the step)

Build a 6,7kWh battery from 8 280Ah lifepo4 cells.(generic alluminum case) So running the system and motor at 24V and having a converter for the 12V loads.(eliminates the old lead acid and seperate charger below the v berth) Mainly opted for 24V since the peripherals and battery are cheaper. 

Comparing your numbers is something I am looking forward to! By now I barely covered a mile and most of that was playing around at low speed to test maneuverability in docking situations. 

Gut feeling says it is a little less efficient, but if I have the opportunity over the weekend I‘ll log numbers for each knot. 

In case I haven‘t posted it before, the battery block before installation. Weighs in at about 45kg with the box  

 

4AE6FE64-1E41-40FF-B851-411BB461961D.jpeg

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2 hours ago, allweather said:

Seems like I never took a pic of the finished install. Its behind the storage bin(bin now pulled further forwards by about 25cm. Just under the step)

Build a 6,7kWh battery from 8 280Ah lifepo4 cells.(generic alluminum case) So running the system and motor at 24V and having a converter for the 12V loads.(eliminates the old lead acid and seperate charger below the v berth) Mainly opted for 24V since the peripherals and battery are cheaper. 

Comparing your numbers is something I am looking forward to! By now I barely covered a mile and most of that was playing around at low speed to test maneuverability in docking situations. 

Gut feeling says it is a little less efficient, but if I have the opportunity over the weekend I‘ll log numbers for each knot. 

In case I haven‘t posted it before, the battery block before installation. Weighs in at about 45kg with the box  

Seems like you have a good weight-to-Wh relationship. The ePropulsion E80 Battery is also LiFePo4, but weighs 48kg for 4.1kWh.

Which raises some questions related to weight. Does the battery weight affect the trim of the boat in any noticeable way? Do you feel any difference in stability?

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Yeah, advantage of diy is that at the cost of sealing and warranty I get away with quite a bit less mass. A tradeoff that has to prove itself. I am confident however since I chatted with some folks who have been using similar setups for a few years with no noticable issues. 

Stability I noticed no issues or impact what so ever. Which makes sense considering it is placed just at the waterline or slightly below. 

Trim is a different question however. Compared to the boat with no added gear(i.e. no outboard hanging off the stern) adding the batteries does cause the stern to sink noticably. 

See for reference the waterline on the above picture. That is with the 7-8kg motor in the lazarette and the battery in place and only a few degrees if that out of trim. Without the battery the waterpass was parallel to the surface. Or before I removed the 11kg lead acid from below the V berth. 

Bottom line is that it does have some impact on account of being about one meter aft of the center of buoyancy but less so than my 6ps petrol outboard hung from the stern(3m+ at 25kg+ vs. 1-1,5m at 45kg)

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Little update on my part since unexpectedly it was a sunny but calm day. The following were your measurements with the 1005T, correct?

Knots   Watts
4.0         810w
3.0         400w
2.0         110w 

 

Corresponding my motor seems quite a bit less efficient. Still within an acceptable range but notable.

Knots   Watts
4.0         1100w
3.0         500w
2.0         170w 

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2 hours ago, allweather said:

Little update on my part since unexpectedly it was a sunny but calm day. The following were your measurements with the 1005T, correct?

Knots   Watts
4.0         810w
3.0         400w
2.0         110w 

Corresponding my motor seems quite a bit less efficient. Still within an acceptable range but notable.

Knots   Watts
4.0         1100w
3.0         500w
2.0         170w 

I recall that the Torqeedo Watt display would jump around a bit, maybe 100 Watts +/-. What (NPI) I recorded was my impression of the average reading at each speed.

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Today I took a trip to the boat yard to look at the pod, battery and other components first hand. I was very impressed with the pod and everything else. It's more robust than the Torqeedo, and looks bullet-proof. The owner and I went through the manuals and see how everything fits together. Now we just need the f**king Throttle Control and its cable.

We talked a bit about the battery's effect on trim. I recall that when I used to leave my 30 lb. outboard on the transom bracket, it had no noticeable affect. I'm hoping this battery, while 3.3X the weight won't be too bad. The yard owner suggested placing a bladder with a few gallons of water in the storage space under the v-berth if it's a problem when the boat is in the slip.

(Paging @Zonker and @Bob Perry)

Below is a side view plan of the boat, and the locations and weights of the pod drive and battery and below that the vertical view. I would really appreciate opinions on the effects on trim.

(Click on the image to get a better look.)

LOA: 27.25'

LWL: 20.7'

DISP: 3200 lb.

BEAM: 7.2'

836509734_trimsideview.thumb.jpg.71e849744de202598f3601e18083ae6e.jpg

1040757720_trimviewtop.thumb.jpg.13b0e7e32be220f57b47a7ce6d736864.jpg

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47 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

I don't remember...is it impossible to fit the battery under the sole?

No. The only place it will go is as indicated, unless on top of the cabin sole, which would be pretty intrusive.

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Bull, I think you’ll be just fine.  30# on the very ass end vs 100# just four feet or so aft of the center of flotation will be unnoticeable. IF, I’m wrong, since you’re lake sailing anyway, you won’t feel any adverse effect of 5 gallons of water in a jug fwd.  (5 gal x 7.x #/gallon is more than enough up forward). I don’t think you’ll even see it.

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1 hour ago, Veeger said:

I don’t think you’ll even see it.

It might make you a little slower to plane. :p

Definitely looking for to hearing about the results of your pod. Torqueedo's offering doesn't impress.

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10 hours ago, Bull City said:

We talked a bit about the battery's effect on trim. I recall that when I used to leave my 30 lb. outboard on the transom bracket, it had no noticeable affect. I'm hoping this battery, while 3.3X the weight won't be too bad. The yard owner suggested placing a bladder with a few gallons of water in the storage space under the v-berth if it's a problem when the boat is in the slip.

In term of trim, that's the equivalent of a woman of average weight sitting in the cockpit. It would only worry me if I was racing the boat! As the transom is not in danger of being immersed, the effect on speed is probably not that great, I wouldn't add some extra weight to trim the boat. I would do nothing or try to find something heavy (ground tackle ?) to move forward, or systematically find a space as forward as possible for all the relatively heavy items, even if relatively heavy is just a few pounds, it soon adds up especially if some stuff ends up under the V beth.

If somebody in the marina points out that you are out of trim you can always reply with a smile that this is your trim for 30+ knots downwind kite up and you forgot to retrim last time you went out!

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I'm following this project with interest. I would love to get rid out of my gasoline outboard, electric power is just not economically feaible for me yet.

Regarding forward/aft trim, couldn't you have gone for double batteries, with one batteri under starboard and one under port settee?

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36 minutes ago, Misbehavin&#x27; said:

Regarding forward/aft trim, couldn't you have gone for double batteries, with one batteri under starboard and one under port settee?

For the sake of simplicity, I went with the ePropulsion battery. It's plug-and-play, affordable, fits in the space, and provides plenty of range. Finding batteries that would fit under the settees would have been a challenge.

I didn't think about trim until a few days ago, after I read @allweather's post - now I think about little else. :wacko:

2 hours ago, Panoramix said:

I would do nothing or try to find something heavy (ground tackle ?) to move forward, or systematically find a space as forward as possible for all the relatively heavy items, even if relatively heavy is just a few pounds, it soon adds up especially if some stuff ends up under the V beth.

I usually store the cockpit awning and asymmetric in the v-berth. They might be 15 lbs. My anchor and 6' of chain are in the cockpit locker. Moving them forward is a possibility, at least the chain. I don't know about the anchor. I do not want it hanging on the stem.

8 hours ago, Veeger said:

Bull, I think you’ll be just fine.  30# on the very ass end vs 100# just four feet or so aft of the center of flotation will be unnoticeable. IF, I’m wrong, since you’re lake sailing anyway, you won’t feel any adverse effect of 5 gallons of water in a jug fwd.  (5 gal x 7.x #/gallon is more than enough up forward). I don’t think you’ll even see it.

This idea has appeal. It would be just forward of the space called "Space for WC" in the drawing. Perhaps it could be a jug of vodka or rum with a long straw. ;)

I think I will do nothing for the present, and see how she rides.

Thank you all for your suggestions and ideas.

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13 minutes ago, Bull City said:

I usually store the cockpit awning and asymmetric in the v-berth. They might be 15 lbs. My anchor and 6' of chain are in the cockpit locker.

From a weight point of view, swapping the 2 would probably trim the boat about right. Trouble with this is that an anchor under the V-berth is not very practical. On racing boats some people put their ground tackle in some kind of buckets, this is a PITA if you need to anchor! On one boat, I've seen a nice bag made out of heavy cloth to store it, I imagine that was a much better solution (never had to move it around). On the plus side your anchor can't be that heavy so if you don't use it that often may be you can make it work with a neat bag.

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You shouldn‘t worry about this, Bull. Even if I originally brought it up...

You‘re new propulsion should come out at about 55kg all in all?(minus some for displaced water of the pod)

Transom mounted motor is about 3,7m aft of CoB at 15kg or 55kgm torque(wrong unit, jadajada)

55kg of epropulsion 1,4m behind CoB comes out to 77kgm.

From CoB to the space below the V-berth(I mean the cabin floor after the mast step/bulkhead) is 1,7m. Meaning you need about 15kg of stuff there if you wanted to completely offset the weight distribution of the new gear. Or as mentioned the 12kg lead acid battery I removed from there.

For somewhat longer out of bay sailing I usually store my anchor gear there. Though a relatively light weighted rope in a nice soft bag makes it a pleasant affair to stow away. Works pretty much the same with the twice as heavy chain if I need it to. Bag is some strong fabric with foam sewn in for cushioning. 

I reckon ten bottles of wine should do the just just as well though. :D

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1 hour ago, allweather said:

You shouldn‘t worry about this, Bull. Even if I originally brought it up...

I'm feeling much better, :) except that now I have to find something else to worry about.

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There is always worrying about wether prop wash will give enough steering authority in close quarter.(yes it will) ;)

Or the next project. Plus one is always fun with sailboats. I‘m puzzling at installing some solar. (Old panel likely ill suited for my current battery but deck space is also at a premium and ports not far away)

 

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12 hours ago, Veeger said:

Bull, I think you’ll be just fine.  30# on the very ass end vs 100# just four feet or so aft of the center of flotation will be unnoticeable. IF, I’m wrong, since you’re lake sailing anyway, you won’t feel any adverse effect of 5 gallons of water in a jug fwd.  (5 gal x 7.x #/gallon is more than enough up forward). I don’t think you’ll even see it.

You could save space and use Canadian gallons, they weigh 10 lbs each.

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12 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

You could save space and use Canadian gallons, they weigh 10 lbs each.

Is that like the big pints of beer?

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19 hours ago, Bull City said:

The yard owner suggested placing a bladder with a few gallons of water in the storage space under the v-berth if it's a problem when the boat is in the slip.

Yeah its close enough to the LCG of the boat that I wouldn't worry. But do not use a bladder of water.

Use some bottles of wine as variable ballast.

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The ancients used amphorae of wine for trim. Every evening at sea they'd re-trim their boats. Not everyone knows this but it's where the expression "wine dark sea" (οἶνοψ πόντος) comes from.

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1 hour ago, weightless said:

The ancients used amphorae of wine for trim. Every evening at sea they'd re-trim their boats. Not everyone knows this but it's where the expression "wine dark sea" (οἶνοψ πόντος) comes from.

Yes, and I believe they would move the wine around as needed, after filtering through their kidneys.

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2 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Yes, and I believe they would move the wine around as needed, after filtering through their kidneys.

Made famous for ten years at sea navigating poorly and dreaming extravagantly. Just saying.

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Good morning Bull, et al.

Bull - have you got any pictures of the kit over the weekend?

This has been a long and fruitful read. I've been interested in the electric drives for a while. Years ago it seemed a very involved process, and the onus on the buyer/fitter. I was looking seriously at the torqeedo pod a year ago, and then have also moved over to the epropulsion idea.

The boat is 27ft, about 2200kgs full sailing weight, and a very easily driven hull shape. We've previously had a 9hp yanmar with saildrive. That engine suffered a fairly major issue, and a replacement / alternative is needed.

I'm about to order the Pod Evo 3.0, with 4kWh battery and sidemount controls.

There's a Seascape 27 (fairly comparable) fitted with that package nearby and they have apparently got a comfortable 15Nm at cruising speed in real world tests.

We sail on "sailing days" - I'm not trying to cross Biscay, or heading out in a dead calm just because it's booked in the calendar. The boat is designed for daysailing, weekends and the occasional week, with maybe 50% of overnights in marinas rather than at anchor. So I figure I need 1Nm, maybe 2 to get out of a marina and into sailing water, plus the equivalent at the other end. Double that for unexpected motoring, and double it again for emergencies and I'm still pretty much on the expected range.

Also love the idea of the regen - we'll get a couple of hundred watts as a basic feed in, and most of the time we should be up around 400w. I was thinking about having a set of PV panels, maybe 200-250w in total that we could set out when not sailing, which I guess weould be useful for the house battery, as we'll no longer charge that off an alternator. Equally, I can use the existing engine battery as a 2nd house battery, so perhaps not such an issue.

A quick set of calcs shows that on a happy F3 day, if I go for a typical jaunt from Chichester Harbour to Cowes, by the time I arrive I will have recharged the battery to full again.

We'll gain space and lose some weight with the change. I'll probably keep the saildrive internal hull moulding in place both for stiffness, and as a framework to support the new battery. I'll fit the pod in a repaired section where the saildrive leg was.

I've hummed and hawwed a lot over power/hp etc. It's hard because the 9hp Yanmar was fitted simply because it was the smallest inboard unit available, not because we needed 9hp to push the boat. In fact, we barely touched on the calcs needed, because we knew 9hp was more than enough.

Controls are an easy fit, I have a recess that the previous throttle and engine dash fitted, so will repair / modify to suit and re-use that area.

With their pricing, I'm just going for the full package, easiest way to be covered for warranty, and know that charger is well matched to the battery, and the battery has the right comms and info to the controls.

It may be pricey compared to an outboard, but as an alternative to a diesel inboard it's a good choice ( crossed fingers for a good long operating life ) It's relatively untested tech in the long term, but I'm happy enough to try it.

They have the new pods in stock, but there is a wait for the rest until mid May apparently. Not too worried about that as I have had to put off the work over the winter waiting for epoxy-friendly temperatures, and my work is manic until June, so it was going to have to wait until then anyway.

I think that's covered most of the issues and planning. If anyone has any thoughts or comments, I'd love to hear them. If not, I'll get some pictures up here and a report when it's fitted.

Jess.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, TheBSJ said:

Bull - have you got any pictures of the kit over the weekend?

Jess, I'm sorry, not a single one. I was kind of focused on other stuff and didn't even think about it.

As mentioned, I was impressed with the stoutness and robustness of the pod and other components, the cables, and the connection points.

The pod itself, where the motor is housed, is about the same size as the Torqeedo Travel 1003 pod, although the propeller has a smaller diameter. Unlike the Torqeedo, it's all metal.

Your project is very similar to mine - except for the Side Mount Controller. Does that one have a GPS thingy? You might want to verify that. The Top Mount has it. On the Torqeedo, the GPS is in the battery.

Are you going to do the installation, or have it done by a professional?

I am sure you will enjoy odor-free sailing. Please feel free to "hijack" this thread to keep us updated.

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No worries, your comments about the robustness are worth far more.

I've not checked about the GPS on the sidemount or not. I assume it either carries one, or has inputs for data from GPS or log to help with the range calcs. I've enquired, so hope to get a confirmation.

I'm doing the installation, (but I built the boat, so I'd prefer to do it myself anyway.) The plug-and-play setup makes it pretty simple for the system side of it.

I'll add a little update when I know more.

 

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@TheBSJ I was thinking about your HP selection. The Seascape 27 is 3098 lbs., my H-Boat is 3200 lbs. The 3.0 pod is rated at 6 HP which should be fine. It's twice the Torqeedo, which has been very adequate in most conditions.

If your boat is 4850 lbs. the 6.0 pod drive might be wise, but it's big bump in price. Something to think about.

I'm attaching the ePropulsion USD price list (pdf file) for the three pod drives (and their outboards). It may be helpful.

ePropulsion Full Price List 2021_V1.0_US_Annapolis Hybrid Marine.pdf

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These guys are local to me. Using a Cal 25 (~4500 lbs displacement) they say they get 50 n.m. range at close to 5 knots.   I suspect they're a bit more reasonably priced because they come from e-bike world.

The issue for me is still range with the type of sailing I do (not visiting marinas very often which I would need to recharge).

One thought I have is all this is in calm water/no wind. If you have a headwind or strong seas your range will drop dramatically. With a diesel/gas engine you just push the throttle open a bit more because you have lots of reserve power. With a 3 kW motor like the guy in the video, you just slow to a crawl and lose range fast.

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@ZonkerYeah, I think you need to think about the e-motors the same way that you would with human propulsion on keelboats -- it is only to replace sailing when in drifting conditions, not also for replacing sailing when there is strong wind.  

I've worked with Grin a lot on e-bike projects and Justin (the owner and and in the still image above) is very good at building these systems.  He's a good engineer with strong principals and interested in looking at unique solutions.

They made really nice hardware at good price points too.  I'm doing a lot of battery testing right now (including my electric outboard batteries) because I got a new DC load tester and I've been super impressed with my Grin charger compared to my other lithium chargers.  

I'm pretty interested to see where he goes with this sailing interest.

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