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8 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

So do you want to pay more for the engineering and ethical standards of the country whose engineers brought you DieselGate?  Only the buyer can decide how much that is worth to them.

I think if we German's are now remembered for being the 'DieselGate' guys, we've come quite a long way.

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28 minutes ago, Matagi said:

To be more on topic:

has anybody here experience with Caroute motors?

There is one amateur builder in northern Deutschland who is quite excited about putting it into his project.

wow!  that guy is doing abeautiful job on that build

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3 hours ago, Matagi said:
11 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

So do you want to pay more for the engineering and ethical standards of the country whose engineers brought you DieselGate?  Only the buyer can decide how much that is worth to them.

I think if we German's are now remembered for being the 'DieselGate' guys, we've come quite a long way.

Well, one provocative commentator who I read elsewhere did point out that Dieselgate was not round 1 of large German companies making stuff that is v dangerous for breathing.  But most people have been kinder than that, just focusing on the contrast between VW's kinda smug green-diesel marketing and the dirty reality.

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 If Two Legs wants to ride a unicycle or drive around in her electric Lada, that is her prerogative. If anyone wants to sell me a late-model VW or MB diesel car at a discounted price because they are having pangs of conscience about 'DieselGate', PM me the details. Superb machines that got caught in a marketing lie. Big deal. I'll drive a German diesel car with a big smile on my face. YMMV (significantly).

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5 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

 If Two Legs wants to ride a unicycle or drive around in her electric Lada, that is her prerogative. If anyone wants to sell me a late-model VW or MB diesel car at a discounted price because they are having pangs of conscience about 'DieselGate', PM me the details. Superb machines that got caught in a marketing lie. Big deal. I'll drive a German diesel car with a big smile on my face. YMMV (significantly).

Oh Jim! Have you no conscience? You should be driving an electric plug-in. All of Nova Scotia is within range.

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4 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Oh Jim! Have you no conscience? You should be driving an electric plug-in. All of Nova Scotia is within range.

Yes, and 80% of our electricity is generated by burning coal, natural gas or 'biomass' (wood products). I'm a realist.

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3 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

Yes, and 80% of our electricity is generated by burning coal, natural gas or 'biomass' (wood products). I'm a realist.

Are you going to skip the intermediaries and just go straight into a coal-powered truck?

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4 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

If Two Legs wants to ride a unicycle or drive around in her electric Lada, that is her prerogative.

Nah, I drive Japanese vehicles.  Much more reliable than the European/American stuff.

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3 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

Yes, and 80% of our electricity is generated by burning coal, natural gas or 'biomass' (wood products). I'm a realist.

I thought everyone had given up on that old chestnut.  :(

Even with electricity generated 100% from fossil-fuels, it's still way more efficient to generate leccy at a power station than to burn the furn in an ICE engine. 

Anyway, you don't need to use the grid: install solar at home, and charge from that.  Even up in the Canadian tundra, solar energy works.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

I thought everyone had given up on that old chestnut.  :(

Even with electricity generated 100% from fossil-fuels, it's still way more efficient to generate leccy at a power station than to burn the furn in an ICE engine. 

Anyway, you don't need to use the grid: install solar at home, and charge from that.  Even up in the Canadian tundra, solar energy works.

On our side of the tundra we bring in the solar garden lights because they are essentially useless in the winter.

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17 hours ago, Matagi said:

has anybody here experience with Caroute motors?

There is one amateur builder in northern Deutschland who is quite excited about putting it into his project.

It is the same motor I am using for my h-boat. Well, same company with different distributor and slightly varied characteristics.(160thrust wasn't available in 24V when I ordered)

What are you interested about in the motor?

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7 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

 If Two Legs wants to ride a unicycle or drive around in her electric Lada, that is her prerogative. If anyone wants to sell me a late-model VW or MB diesel car at a discounted price because they are having pangs of conscience about 'DieselGate', PM me the details. Superb machines that got caught in a marketing lie. Big deal. I'll drive a German diesel car with a big smile on my face. YMMV (significantly).

State of the art in Irish home-developed personal transport...

22625525-irish-horse-with-cart.jpg

FKT

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6 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Are you going to skip the intermediaries and just go straight into a coal-powered truck?

 

I want one. I bet Ajax does too.

Bull: please rescue us from serious thread drift. We need an update on how the commissioning is going.

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4 hours ago, Ishmael said:

On our side of the tundra we bring in the solar garden lights because they are essentially useless in the winter.

My part of Ireland is at 54°N.  Solar works here.

Solar works even better when you get to the sunny south like Halifax NS, which is more than nine degrees south of us at 44° 52′ N.

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4 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

My part of Ireland is at 54°N.  Solar works here.

Solar works even better when you get to the sunny south like Halifax NS, which is more than nine degrees south of us at 44° 52′ N.

Solar works well here in the warm months. I have 200 watts on the boat and its great. As Ish says, even the solar garden lights struggle in the winter. And the net solar houses with arrays on their roofs don't do well when it snows. Even with sunny days or plenty of wind to drive turbines, we are still having to import hydro power and burn lots of biomass (which is scarcely better than burning hydrocarbons) to meet our renewable resource goals. The only technology that can replace fossil fuels in the near term is nuclear. Or we curb our energy appetite and go back to horse and buggy...

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4 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

State of the art in Irish home-developed personal transport...

22625525-irish-horse-with-cart.jpg

FKT

FKT, you misunderstand the picture.

That is not a transport device.  That is a actually a form of cash machine, specifically a state-of-the-art, highly-efficient take-pots-of-money-off-American-tourists device.

A few dozen yards of trotting on the trap, a few doses of blarney from the flat-capped driver, a round of photos ... and kerrr-ching, another big dose of cash to help us in our 40-year task of bailing out the reckless German banks.

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8 hours ago, allweather said:

It is the same motor I am using for my h-boat. Well, same company with different distributor and slightly varied characteristics.(160thrust wasn't available in 24V when I ordered)

What are you interested about in the motor?

@alweather, I am intereted too!

Do you have the spec of the motor you used?

And how did you do the rotating part to allow to direct the thrust? It makes sense that a 180° turn of the pod will be much more efficient than using that prop in reverse...

But that "sleeve" you have to hold it in place, home designed and home made, I guess? Any details on this point???

Do you have a way to "lock in place" the orientation of the pod, or once you set it and you throttle up, it does not move nor change direction anyway? If I look at your pictures in the link above, it seems that you just have a long bolt sticking out, as a handle, to orient the pod assembly...

I am really interested on how you did this...

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18 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

 If Two Legs wants to ride a unicycle or drive around in her electric Lada, that is her prerogative. If anyone wants to sell me a late-model VW or MB diesel car at a discounted price because they are having pangs of conscience about 'DieselGate', PM me the details. Superb machines that got caught in a marketing lie. Big deal. I'll drive a German diesel car with a big smile on my face. YMMV (significantly).

Just driven my electric plugin from La Rochelle to St Malo, worked fine... The sailing before was more interesting though. I wish the boat was fitted with an electric engine as that petrol outboard was smelly and only needed to come in and out of harbours.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

...I wish the boat was fitted with an electric engine as that petrol outboard was smelly and only needed to come in and out of harbours.

You have described perfectly the merits and design parameters of an electric auxiliary sailboat.

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5 hours ago, Laurent said:

Do you have the spec of the motor you used?

I run the 24V 120lbs thrust motor. Aka EMP120 (see Pelican motors good overview)

Before I adress individual points, let me say I learned a bunch of things already and would modify things from this very much beta version. Principles work however and overall it just runs. So I am not in a hurry.

As is basically everything is DIY with fiberglass and foam of some sort or the other.

5 hours ago, Laurent said:

And how did you do the rotating part to allow to direct the thrust?

5 hours ago, Laurent said:

Do you have a way to "lock in place" the orientation of the pod, or once you set it and you throttle up, it does not move nor change direction anyway? If I look at your pictures in the link above, it seems that you just have a long bolt sticking out, as a handle, to orient the pod assembly...

As I have it right now it is a slide bearing with the rotating shaft simply sliding in its sleeve.(rotating part is acrylic and the sleeve is lined with teflon foil)

This arrangement has its limitations as you can turn it freely when no thrust is applied, but does jam at half thrust or so and overall has sufficient friction to not wiggle around in any scenario.

In version two I intend to install two bearings to get a smooth adjustment even at high thrust in case I need to change direction while maneuvering. The usual scenario is that I want to direct some more thrust sideways, turning the boat instead of driving forward, or changing from that to forward/stopping motion and right now that requires zeroing the throttle for a moment, rotate and return power again. Which works, but obviously is not perfect.

 

As it is now I build up a roughly round section on the shaft and then capped that with a acrylic tube that I knew to be close to round since just with laminating and no lath I wasn't going to get a round section otherwise.

On that I stuck some foil(thicker car wrap or something like that. Just needed the extra clearance between finished parts), waxed and laminated the sleeve on it as a foam/fiberglass sandwhich.

That turned out reasonably stiff but between however much it does warp and inaccuracies during the build it is also part of the reason why it all tends to jam during higher throttle output.

Long bolt as you said is simply a handle(some aluminium I had lying around) to hold onto and turn.
Throttle is a seperate control inboards in case I didn't mention it before.

 

5 hours ago, Laurent said:

But that "sleeve" you have to hold it in place, home designed and home made, I guess? Any details on this point???

See picture. The lower, sliding part is based on a carbon shaft. In this case a windsurf mast section. That is where the motor is mounted to and it carries the whole load.
The profile around it fulfills two functions and is not al that structural. Streamlining somewhat for less drag.(now I would opt for a thinner carbon tube and subsequently thinner profile but that requires a bit more finesse to get the motor mounted and I used parts that I already had for the prototype/first version)
The second and arguable more important bit is to keep it from turning independently from the upper part. Duh. Any rectangular section would have worked, but I didn't find one in time to just order so it was DIY again.

Cut a foam plug of the profile(front and back section), glued them onto the carbon tube and then laminated a couple layers of fiberglass on it. Fairing and the usual afterwards.

The sleeve is again made as a fiberglass foam sandwich and directly laminated on the lower section.
Had some trouble with getting it to work right because I didn't add the proper offset. But got there and simply working neatly would prevent any such issues.

 

Does that adress your questions?

2021_03_31_IMG_3355.JPG

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Thanks a lot allweather, very instructive...

I did not realize that the part between the rotating sleeve and the pod assembly itself (electric motor and propeller) was telescopic! But it makes sense now, and zooming in the picture of the whole boat with the motor deployed, I can see the telescopic part... It sure makes it more compact to stow away.

 

Thanks!

 

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Glad to hear that cleared up some things.
Let me tell you that it would have been so much easier without the telescopic part but the h-boat was never designed for such a thing. Meaning the hatch is too small to allow a full length shaft to pass through and still reach deeply enough so my hand was forced.

If I could I would certainly opt for a non telescopic variant. No need to account for variable cable length(right now I just let it slide in and out, a spiral cable would be preferable). One of the shelf carbon tube for load bearing and off the shelf bearings. Only needing to sleeve the in the water parts.

Actually even played with the idea of the proper fishing trolling motors.(same motors) Those that come with remote control for direction and throttle. But I do believe that is overengineering it for a small boat and the increase in price better spend on batteries.

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On 4/10/2021 at 6:30 PM, Bull City said:

Today I took a trip to the boat yard to look at the pod, battery and other components first hand. 

We talked a bit about the battery's effect on trim. I recall that when I used to leave my 30 lb. outboard on the transom bracket, it had no noticeable affect. I'm hoping this battery, while 3.3X the weight won't be too bad. The yard owner suggested placing a bladder with a few gallons of water in the storage space under the v-berth if it's a problem when the boat is in the slip.

(Paging @Zonker and @Bob Perry)

Below is a side view plan of the boat, and the locations and weights of the pod drive and battery and below that the vertical view. I would really appreciate opinions on the effects on trim.

(Click on the image to get a better look.)

LOA: 27.25'

LWL: 20.7'

DISP: 3200 lb.

BEAM: 7.2'

836509734_trimsideview.thumb.jpg.71e849744de202598f3601e18083ae6e.jpg

1040757720_trimviewtop.thumb.jpg.13b0e7e32be220f57b47a7ce6d736864.jpg

I am still obsessing about fore & aft trim. I found this "lesson" about it, but it made my head hurt.

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/swos/dca/stg4-04.html

Help @Zonker and @Bob Perry!

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37 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

Your fans demand lots of pictures.

Or else we may stop sending you all those million-dollar donations ;) 

Good point. 

Tomorrow, Joe the lettering fellow is going to stick the boat name on the transom. He promised to send me a picture, which I will share.

In the meantime, here's a photo of tonight's dinner: game hens wrapped in prosciutto, and potatoes slow fried with garlic and Rosemary.

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_589e.thumb.jpg.7722407cf59753ea64369cd2f434276e.jpg

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4 hours ago, Bull City said:

Good point. 

Tomorrow, Joe the lettering fellow is going to stick the boat name on the transom. He promised to send me a picture, which I will share.

In the meantime, here's a photo of tonight's dinner: game hens wrapped in prosciutto, and potatoes slow fried with garlic and Rosemary.

UNADJUSTEDNONRAW_thumb_589e.thumb.jpg.7722407cf59753ea64369cd2f434276e.jpg

Did everyone get a couple of sparrows, or just you?

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10 hours ago, Bull City said:

I am still obsessing about fore & aft trim. I found this "lesson" about it, but it made my head hurt.

That you're reading a navy damage control lesson on how to (re)trim a hull tickles me something fierce.

What do you want to accomplish though? I mean, it does cover things technically, but in the end all boils down to shifting the anchor forward until it looks right.

So, what's the plan there besides distracting yourself until you have the test drive done? :D

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I just got the photo of the new lettering. It's bigger than I thought, and bigger than the old version, which I liked. Here is the old:

22483687_Version2(1).thumb.jpg.de5d1f8b0abdb3894fa32602f42a179a.jpg

and here is the new:

TONIC-sm.jpg.fc331eaff15ad79f64eefb617229b627.jpg

I'd be interested in your thoughts. Cutting and installing new letters would involve very little money, but I'd need to have it done soon.

Thanks.

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I love the name, in either version. And the font. I think the smaller is better, but only by a smidge. 

There was a beautiful Fife sloop on the docks this morning. They have such lovely tiny sterns. And on those tiny sterns are always the smallest text you'll ever see on a boat transom.

Anaother Fife stern: 422385632_Adventuressstern(1of1).thumb.jpg.94e85d96014ad6818caaa58540ea0665.jpg

I loved it! In fact, if you do go smaller, I'd go way smaller and try to get the text on the same camber (roughly) as the top of transom (I think it has some?). I have my sign guy do that with mine and he has no trouble. 

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In the discussion of size of lettering, we need to remember that it’s only a 27 foot boat, and it’s a 27 footer with a small transom.  
 

I think they both look great.  You are “used to” the original size. My advise would be to live with the new size for a season, then decide…you may end up liking it more in the end if you give it some time to “grow” on you (pun intended) :P

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Kinda wondering why you didn't specify the size... but anyway, I'd be more worried about that new paint underneath.  Be a real bummer if the letters didn't come off cleanly.  It looks just fine.

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2 minutes ago, loneshark64 said:

Not when it’s cold. BTW, it’s usually cold.

Out of curiosity, I have always wondered how Teslas and their ilk heat the cabin in a cold, Canadian winter. It must eat quite a few amp hours. Even electrically heated seats are power hogs...

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2 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

Out of curiosity, I have always wondered how Teslas and their ilk heat the cabin in a cold, Canadian winter. It must eat quite a few amp hours. Even electrically heated seats are power hogs...

Older EVs had a big problem in extreme temperatures. But newer EVs have heat pumps, which use way less leccy, like 75% less

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2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Older EVs had a big problem in extreme temperatures. But newer EVs have heat pumps, which use way less leccy, like 75% less

I still wonder how they would do in a week of sub-40 temperature. You would need one hell of a battery blanket.

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1 hour ago, Ishmael said:

I still wonder how they would do in a week of sub-40 temperature. You would need one hell of a battery blanket.

I don't know the details of how it all works, other than that some pre-heating helps ... but I do know that Norwegians love their EVs.  In June 2021, BEVs (battery electric vehicles) had a 64.7% share of Norway's passenger car market. Even more startling, cars with no plug at all got only a 15% market share.

Norway gets v cold winters, so they have evidently found that EVs manage the cold.  If North America had offered major incentives for EVs like Norway has, then muricans and canucks could have experienced these benefits for themselves instead of going all culture wars about it.

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10 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

It must eat quite a few amp hours. Even electrically heated seats are power hogs...

Quick reminder that the data is usually just a quick web search away.

https://www.naf.no/elbil/aktuelt/elbiltest/ev-winter-range-test-2020/

According to a norwegian test vehicles that start cold have around 20% decreased range when heated with a heat pump like virtually every EV coming on the market.(because as noted by TwoLegged earlier far more efficient use of electricity)

If you can plug your car in overnight as everyone with their own parking space in front of their home you can set the car to heat up while still connected to the grid while you're still having breakfast and be ready to go, ice free and warm with a topped up battery.

Note that for that you don't need any wall charger, a standard extension cord is usually enough.

As for battery blankets and so on, EVs already come with battery temperature management usually(due to design limits of the battery. Pretty much none like operating in freezing temperatures at all).
Though as the linked article notes the car makers do tend towards adjusting with extra insulation and such for the colder climates.

 

And now back to boats. Has anyone checked where Epropulsion's batteries are in regards to operating in cold temperatures? I'm expecting some temperature cutoff(around freezing) but not sure if they also have heating for those cases.

I didn't bother with both for my DIY since the boat doesn't really sail in freezing temperatures.
Specifically the battery management system is one of the cheaper ones that don't have low temperature cut off(or at least not reliable from what I've read) but an alarm for that. Heating is easy to do with a commercially available pad placed beneath the cells but simply not something I thought necessary for my own use case.(and fairly simple if a couple steps to add later if it turns out I need winter use afterall)

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Here is a recent article. This article is “EV positive” and still says the range is cut 12% and if you use the heater it can be worse 40%. I have read other articles on this in the past that said very cold weather can cut the range nearly in half.

I am monitoring this because we want our next cars to be electric but in maine I think I will have to keep a gas car because if the range is cut in half in the the depths of winter that is a problem. We have Ford Fusion Titanium hybrid I got for my wife in 2014, and that has been the best car we have ever had maintenance wise, no battery problems, little maintenance, and 45mpg, so if we have to have one car be a hybrid, I am fine with that. 

https://www.greencars.com/post/how-cold-weather-affects-electric-cars?8c406f15_page=6

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Looked up the original study since I was suprised at the severity of findings.

https://newsroom.aaa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/AAA-Electric-Vehicle-Range-Testing-Report.pdf

Only leafed through it and can't say anything about the quality of research, but it appears solid enough to me?
Though there seems to be room to grow considering the nissan only suffered 30% range reduction at 20F while heating the car to 72F from cold starting.

I'm sure some reduction in cabin temperature would help, but most don't like the comfort decerase for obvious reasons.(I only tend to bother for longer drives. If it is -10°C or worse my car takes long enough to warm up the motor already and I'll be wearing appropriate clothes so I don't really care about cabin heating for anything less than 30minutes. Though if I had an electric heater and a parking spot in front of my home that could be different)

Definitely something to keep in mind if one needs to drive longer distances in the cold daily without charging infrastructure at the destination.(so no plug at work to heat it before departure. Lack of infrastructure, wonderful)

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The "range anxiety" issue is widely discussed around EVs, and the main thing I can see is that it is much less severe among those who have owned an EV than among those who haven't.

If you can charge at home, then you can set off every morning with a "full tank", which isn't feasible with an ICE car.  So the question becomes whether the reduced range in extremely cold weather really constrains you.

Most new EV models have a range of over 200 miles.  With a 40% loss of range in extreme cold, you're looking at 12 mile range.  How often do you actually do over 120 miles in a day without a recharging opportunity, either at a rapid charger or at your destination (e.g. workplace)?

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6 minutes ago, sculpin said:

OK for the commute, bad for the skiing roadtrip...

For the skiing roadtrip, just stop every hundred miles for a rapid charge.  That's about a two-hour interval, which is a good time to take a break from the wheel.   Stretch your legs, go the jacks, have a coffee, and toddle back to your recharged car with refreshed driver.

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Its clear you're not a North American driver. The distance from my city to the next major metropolis is 1250 km. I can do that drive comfortably in 12 to 13 hours. If I had to stop every 160 km to recharge for two hours, the trip would take 28 hours!

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23 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

Its clear you're not a North American driver. The distance from my city to the next major metropolis is 1250 km. I can do that drive comfortably in 12 to 13 hours. If I had to stop every 160 km to recharge for two hours, the trip would take 28 hours!

Jim, that's based on another misconception: it doesn't take two hours to recharge.  Most modern cars can optimise the charging strategy to ensure a series of 20-minute stops, and with the new 150KW+ rapid chargers that 20 minutes can get you up to 70% or more.

In Norway, Bjørn Nyland regularly tests new EVs on 1,000km trip: how fast can the car do it, using optimised charging strategies. Most cars manage it in 9–11 hours.

His latest test is a Hyundai which did the 1,000km  in 10 hours.  At that rate, a 1250km would take 12.5 hours, which exactly the middle of the 12 to 13 hours you say you can do the journey.  So what's the problem?

 

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21 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

Its clear you're not a North American driver. The distance from my city to the next major metropolis is 1250 km. I can do that drive comfortably in 12 to 13 hours. If I had to stop every 160 km to recharge for two hours, the trip would take 28 hours!

Ireland is only 84,400 sq km. We have cattle properties bigger than that.

https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/country-size-comparison/ireland/australia

FKT

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8 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Ireland is only 84,400 sq km. We have cattle properties bigger than that.

Sure, if you grab a whole continent, take the land off the natives, and drive them into squalor in reservations, then you get lots of space.

That much is obvious. It's less obvious is what that has to do with EV range, or why some people think that the spoils of conquest and/or genocide are something to boast about :( 

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One Christmas a while back I did an epic road-trip, 5000 km.  If I had had to stop every 150 km and wait for a charge I'd have lost my mind. 

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On 8/24/2021 at 7:40 PM, loneshark64 said:

Not when it’s cold. BTW, it’s usually cold.

 

On 8/24/2021 at 7:45 PM, Jim in Halifax said:

Out of curiosity, I have always wondered how Teslas and their ilk heat the cabin in a cold, Canadian winter. It must eat quite a few amp hours. Even electrically heated seats are power hogs...

You "motha fuckas" are responsible for this thread drift. Take that to your grave!! ^_^

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17 minutes ago, sculpin said:

One Christmas a while back I did an epic road-trip, 5000 km.  If I had had to stop every 150 km and wait for a charge I'd have lost my mind. 

Not exactly a common use case, is it?

But I assume that you stopped to use the toilet etc.  A small extension of those breaks would keep your car charged.  Bjørn Nyland's 1,000km tests of cars average a speed of ~100km/hr, including charging breaks.

 

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27 minutes ago, Bull City said:

 

You "motha fuckas" are responsible for this thread drift. Take that to your grave!! ^_^

Just a warning that if you take your boat on a 1000 km trip in the middle of the Canadian prairie in winter you might need to stop and recharge now and again. Like every 3 minutes or 3 feet, whichever happens first.

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Well TL, I don't have to go pee every hour so I'd be wasting a lot of time.  Common?  Big-ish road trip yearly.

Taking it back to boats, are the lithium ion batteries OK with freezing?  I'd guess so but no first hand knowledge... so a northern boat, can one leave the batteries on board for the winter?

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5 minutes ago, sculpin said:

Well TL, I don't have to go pee every hour so I'd be wasting a lot of time.  Common?  Big-ish road trip yearly.

So that annual road trip in an EV might average only 100km/h, like Bjorn Nyland manages.  Doesn't sound traumatic to me.  If I average that in my diesel vehicle with its 300-mile range, I think I am doing very well.

7 minutes ago, sculpin said:

Taking it back to boats, are the lithium ion batteries OK with freezing?  I'd guess so but no first hand knowledge... so a northern boat, can one leave the batteries on board for the winter?

Boat batteries are usually LIFePO, not the lithium-cobalt batteries used in cars and often known as LiIon.  The LiFEPO chemistry has lower energy density, but also a much lower fire risk.  I dunno how LIFEPO fares in the cold, but don't assume that the differently-built car batteries are a guide.

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6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Most new EV models have a range of over 200 miles.  With a 40% loss of range in extreme cold, you're looking at 12 mile range.  How often do you actually do over 120 miles in a day without a recharging opportunity, either at a rapid charger or at your destination (e.g. workplace)?

I have had an EV as my daily driver for two years, in Minnesota, where it gets cold.  It's a 2019 Chevrolet Bolt.

The nominal range of 220 miles or so can be achieved in practice on a mild summer day with no wind.  Since a reasonable reserve must be left the practical range is around 200 miles.  In extreme weather, the range declines precipitously.  On a -25 F day I can comfortably get around 100 miles and still have a reasonable reserve when I get home (25 miles).  The loss of range is due to a combination of cabin heat, battery heat, and increased energy use by the power train.

At least in the USA, and outside California, there isn't any dependable away-from-home charging availability.  There are no rapid charging stations along any route I routinely travel.  I've sought out a couple more for the novelty and to see if they really work.  Level 2 chargers are not widespread (I don't have one within walking distance of my workplace) and most public ones are only 3 kw which is not useful for anything less than an all-day charge. 

My wife is shopping for a new car and while I've suggested another EV she won't consider it, because there have been trips where we simply couldn't take the Bolt due to range limits, and the situation isn't likely to get better for another 3-4 years.

Trailer towing is another situation where the range drops considerably.  I do pull my smaller boats with the Bolt, and it reduces the range to about 80%.

Occasionally someone forgets to plug in the car, and when you get up in the morning and it isn't charged, there isn't much of anything to be done except drive something else.

The longest distance driving days that affect us the most are not the occasional longer trips but rather the situations where there are multiple trips in the same day, sometimes with different drivers, e.g. if I drive to work and back and then drive to the marina to work on the boat and back (about 170 miles total), or if my wife drives up on the weekend to meet family 60 miles away and then that evening we do something else, etc.  Another concern that comes up is arriving home with little charge left after whatever planned trips and then having to make an unexpected trip to pick up kids, take parent to the hospital, or the like.

Finally if left unplugged in extreme cold for more than a day or two the battery will be dead which is a serious problem for air travel.  We don't have public transit between our house and the airport, and the only charging stations at the airport are in the short-term lot.

I'm a fan, I'm an advocate, but we're far from the point where this is simple and flexible.

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7 minutes ago, 2airishuman said:

I have had an EV as my daily driver for two years, in Minnesota, where it gets cold.  It's a 2019 Chevrolet Bolt.

Good thoughtful post, drawn from experience.

Yes, EVs do need infrastructure, just like ICE cars do. A petrol or diesel car will be in trouble if there aren't enough filling stations.

Some countries such as Norway have done a great job at rolling out that EV infrastructure.  Some countries (including Ireland) have done a crap job, and it doesn't sound like Minnesota is much better.  But that's a fault of the public authorities, not a flaw in EVs.

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1 hour ago, 2airishuman said:

I'm a fan, I'm an advocate, but we're far from the point where this is simple and flexible.

Same here.  I've got a Leaf up in Alaska, and only see 45 miles of range in mid winter vs 75 in summer.  The Leaf can still do 80% of our driving, but leaves a lot to be desired.  Next summer should see grant-funded chargers being installed in a half dozen locations on the main highway.  I've had to tow this car up and down the highway twice already just to use it in another location.  AARGH.  

I'd like to go gasless as soon as feasible.  The reduction in maintenance has been wonderful, although the '86 Saab is quite happy to fill that gap in my time.

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4 hours ago, sculpin said:

Taking it back to boats, are the lithium ion batteries OK with freezing?

No, especially charging below freezing temperatures causes permanent damage to the battery. (Some rare and significantly more expensive exceptions aside and those are still limited in charge rate)

Drawing power can still be done to an extent but usually somewhat decreased. 

Basically the chemistry gets too slow and instead of ions moving as usual between electrodes you‘re starting to convert them into pure lithium which can‘t hold any capacity as a battery. 

That is why there are cold specific batteries with much better isolation and internal heating for auch climates. 

Just having the batteries in freezing temperatures without using, for example during winter storage, is fine though. As in -20C is no issue, -30C becomes a problem since the electrolyte starts to freeze around that range. (Always look at product specific data sheets though)

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8 hours ago, Bull City said:

 

You "motha fuckas" are responsible for this thread drift. Take that to your grave!! ^_^

Nature abhors a vacuum. If you were posting more pictures of Tonic (or even food!) we wouldn't be drifting. Ante up Bull!

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Just to jump in on the very interesting EV thread drift...

We have two Subarus, an Outback and an Impreza. The Outback is the older of the two, and when its time comes, we will definitely go with a plug-in. The winters here aren't bad, and most of our trips are local. It's 60 miles to our marina, within range.

For longer trips, we will have the Subaru with an ICE. My guess is that its use will drop considerably. It's replacement will probably be a hybrid.

For EVs to succeed the charging stations need to expand, but that shouldn't be too hard. Consider the infrastructure required to build and operate a gasoline/diesel station (tanks, pumps, tanker truck deliveries) compared to an EV charging station (electricity and some electrical stuff).

One difficulty is also the variety of plugs. A standard will have to emerge.

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34 minutes ago, Bull City said:

One difficulty is also the variety of plugs. A standard will have to emerge.

I meant to say, "Another difficulty is the variety of plugs. A standard will have to emerge." Instead, I was verbose and awkward. I will never write for The Economist:(

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9 minutes ago, Kris Cringle said:

The roar at 12 knots makes me think of Vivaldi, and I’m conducting!

Wrong thread?

3 hours ago, Bull City said:

One difficulty is also the variety of plugs. A standard will have to emerge.

Isn't that already the case with CCS plugs? Last I've seen basically all EVs come with those nowadays.(or in case of Tesla's with an adapter in the trunk)

Though I'd guess the US is going to fuck up charging infrastructure for some time the same way Germany did?(failing to establish road standards during buildup despite experts calling for that for years. Then wondering how incompatible god damn wall plugs are kind of a hindrance to keeping vehicles running)

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2 hours ago, allweather said:
6 hours ago, Bull City said:

One difficulty is also the variety of plugs. A standard will have to emerge.

Isn't that already the case with CCS plugs? Last I've seen basically all EVs come with those nowadays.(or in case of Tesla's with an adapter in the trunk)

I think that the Nissan Leaf is still using Chademo.

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13 hours ago, Bull City said:

For EVs to succeed the charging stations need to expand, but that shouldn't be too hard. Consider the infrastructure required to build and operate a gasoline/diesel station (tanks, pumps, tanker truck deliveries) compared to an EV charging station (electricity and some electrical stuff).

To operate a small fossil fuel filling station, all that's required is tankage and dispensing equipment.  You could set up everything from brand new, anywhere in the USA, for around $10,000 per product.  Distributors with tank trucks will then compete for the opportunity to fill up the tanks at market rates.  With a single product (e.g. 88 octane gasoline) and two dispensers you can fill over 10 cars an hour.  You make money on every gallon and your fixed expenses are limited to a relatively token amount of maintenance and depreciation.

(The $10,000 figure is high.  I used to have a gasoline dispenser and a diesel dispenser at my farm, and utilized used tanks and pumps and so on and although there was some maintenance and parts cost I don't think the whole setup could have cost me more than $500 over the course of the 10 years I did it)

To operate a single level 3 fast charging station, you need the charging station itself, and 480 volt 3 phase electrical service providing at least 50 kw capacity.  Electrical service of this capability is not available in most light commercial locations without paying the electric utility construction costs to extend 3 phase lines.  These costs are tens of dollars a foot and often the lines must be extended for miles.  Once that's done, the cost of the electrical work and the charging station itself far exceed the $10,000 cost of a gasoline dispenser.

The problem then is demand charges and while these vary widely the nationwide average is around $10 per kw peak.  So if you have a 50 kw charger that is operated just once in a month, the demand charge would be $500.  There would be no additional demand charges for the rest of the month whether the charger operates or not, only the comparatively low energy charges. But at the rates consumers pay to charge their EVs at level 3 charging stations, the station has to average one charge a day just to break even on the demand charge.

EV drivers don't use level 3 stations routinely, only under exceptional circumstances.  So the stations end up being busy for holiday weekends etc and sit idle the rest of the time.  There's no reason to believe this will ever change, it will just scale so you'll have 10 cars at once on a holiday weekend and minimal traffic the rest of the time and the demand charges are still hard to cover.

The demand charges reflect real equipment costs incurred by the power companies and so the only way around this is to build partnerships with the electric utility and try to find cost effective locations and means to deliver the enormous amounts of power these chargers require.  Electric utilities being highly regulated, conservative companies this process is slow.

Meanwhile the charging stations are subsidized since they can't make money, we would not have them at all otherwise. 

Quote

One difficulty is also the variety of plugs. A standard will have to emerge.

There's Tesla (which has its own network of charges) and then the other two, J1772 and Chademo.  J1772 is winning over Chademo but it's easy to built a fast charger with both connectors, and most are.

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4 minutes ago, 2airishuman said:

To operate a small fossil fuel filling station, all that's required is tankage and dispensing equipment.  You could set up everything from brand new, anywhere in the USA, for around $10,000 per product.  Distributors with tank trucks will then compete for the opportunity to fill up the tanks at market rates.  With a single product (e.g. 88 octane gasoline) and two dispensers you can fill over 10 cars an hour.  You make money on every gallon and your fixed expenses are limited to a relatively token amount of maintenance and depreciation.

(The $10,000 figure is high.  I used to have a gasoline dispenser and a diesel dispenser at my farm, and utilized used tanks and pumps and so on and although there was some maintenance and parts cost I don't think the whole setup could have cost me more than $500 over the course of the 10 years I did it)

To operate a single level 3 fast charging station, you need the charging station itself, and 480 volt 3 phase electrical service providing at least 50 kw capacity.  Electrical service of this capability is not available in most light commercial locations without paying the electric utility construction costs to extend 3 phase lines.  These costs are tens of dollars a foot and often the lines must be extended for miles.  Once that's done, the cost of the electrical work and the charging station itself far exceed the $10,000 cost of a gasoline dispenser.

The problem then is demand charges and while these vary widely the nationwide average is around $10 per kw peak.  So if you have a 50 kw charger that is operated just once in a month, the demand charge would be $500.  At the rates consumers pay to charge their EVs at level 3 charging stations, the station has to average one charge a day just to break even on the demand charge.

EV drivers don't use level 3 stations routinely, only under exceptional circumstances.  So the stations end up being busy for holiday weekends etc and sit idle the rest of the time.  There's no reason to believe this will ever change, it will just scale so you'll have 10 cars at once on a holiday weekend and minimal traffic the rest of the time and the demand charges are still hard to cover.

The demand charges reflect real equipment costs incurred by the power companies and so the only way around this is to build partnerships with the electric utility and try to find cost effective locations and means to deliver the enormous amounts of power these chargers require.  Electric utilities being highly regulated, conservative companies this process is slow.

Meanwhile the charging stations are subsidized since they can't make money, we would not have them at all otherwise. 

There's Tesla (which has its own network of charges) and then the other two, J1772 and Chademo.  J1772 is winning over Chademo but it's easy to built a fast charger with both connectors, and most are.

Long term, I believe we have to make the change if we're going to survive. I am skeptical of your cost figures for a gasoline dispensing set up.

In any event, the motoring public is paying for the station, the fuel and the delivery of the fuel. I gotta think electricity is cheaper. I pay over $30 to go 450 miles in my gasoline powered car. I suspect the electricity for a plug-in for the same range would be around $10. And the maintenance for a plug-in is much less.

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26 minutes ago, 2airishuman said:

The demand charges reflect real equipment costs incurred by the power companies and so the only way around this is to build partnerships with the electric utility and try to find cost effective locations and means to deliver the enormous amounts of power these chargers require.  Electric utilities being highly regulated, conservative companies this process is slow.

The highly-regulated bit is an opportunity for change.  Just get the regulator to require provision of EV charging infrastructure.

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60% of the world's electricity is currently generated by burning fossil fuels. You can argue that it is more efficient to burn carbon fuels in a generating plant than an ICE but as EVs become more prevalent, the demand for electricity will likely increase. Cars are a First World caprice and driving an electric one only salves the conscience of those individuals who are really not prepared to make radical change in what they consume. We reap what we sow and EVs are as bad for Earth as all the other technologies we love. I give human kind another millenium. Tops.

C'mon Bull, we need an H-boat fix to cheer us up...

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21 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

60% of the world's electricity is currently generated by burning fossil fuels. You can argue that it is more efficient to burn carbon fuels in a generating plant than an ICE but as EVs become more prevalent, the demand for electricity will likely increase. Cars are a First World caprice and driving an electric one only salves the conscience of those individuals who are really not prepared to make radical change in what they consume. We reap what we sow and EVs are as bad for Earth as all the other technologies we love. I give human kind another millenium. Tops.

C'mon Bull, we need an H-boat fix to cheer us up...

The demand will increase, but because it is demand for stored energy, that demand can be met in large part by utilising the low-demand times in the daily cycle, which is basically the small hours of the morning.  Many forms of fossil fuel energy generation (e.g. coal) are not short-cycleable, i.e. they don't stop burning coal when demand falls, and just generate excess heat. 

If those low demand times are used to charge batteries, that is in effect close to free energy.  In the UK, for example, systems are already being used on a trial basis in which smart chargers change the batteries only when the system has surplus energy.  Some of them allow vehicle-to-grid charging in which the car's batteries can supply energy back to the grid  at peak times.  This has potential to actually allow a smaller overall generation system, because the you don't need to have generation capacity to meet peak loads.

Yes, cars are a first-world caprice.  But electricity motors are much more durable than internal combustion engines, so they have the potential for a much longer period of reliable service, which reduces resource usage.  Sadly, that durability may be offset by the tendency to equip EVs with ever-more baroque electronics, which are likely to be the first point of failure or obsolescence.

And yes, we won;t ever the various resource and climate catastrophes without more radical changes.  But insofar as we retain motorised transport, electricity is a more efficient, less polluting and less resource-intensive form of propulsion.

I don't give humankind anything near as much as another millennium.  We are headed for a major climate catastrophe, which we will as usual handle with massive denialism and conflicts and selfishness.  We are likely to be very seriously screwed in much less than a century.  Luckily I will be composted before it gets really bad.

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3 hours ago, Jim in Halifax said:

C'mon Bull, we need an H-boat fix to cheer us up...

On the lettering, I was able get new lettering cut that pretty well matches what I had before. The boat yard was able to remove the new lettering without any problems, and they will be putting on the new ones soon. I'm very keen on seeing the new transom.

I am hoping that the sea trial will take place next week. If all goes well, the plan is to transport her home the next day and splash. Here's a photo the boat yard guy sent:

8BAB5D75-E187-446D-BE26-8D29496E87CB_1_105_c.thumb.jpeg.2cacbf3736c94c92b0b4271b02fe5fe2.jpeg

The trip to her home looks like this. I'm not sure which of the route options they'll take.

1479105471_ScreenShot2021-08-27at10_10_29AM.thumb.png.8154acc017320a2e0757740fdb82f57c.png

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