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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

Jim, for a Haligonian, you are a curmudgeon.

Seriously, I think you're generalizing about people who buy plug-in EVs and their motivation. NTTAWWT.

Well I am definitely a grumpy old fart. I am tired of the political correctness of the current society that paints everything in black or white: Diesel = bad, LiPO = good. If only it were that simple...

But I owe you an apology for bringing 'PA' to your delightful thread about re-powering your H boat. If I had a pretty daysailor like Tonic, I suspect I would want to do exactly the conversion you have chosen. Your electric propulsion is so much more elegant that hanging an ugly OB on the back.

I promise not to get riled by the political correctness of EV discussions in this thread any more. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

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7 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

Well I am definitely a grumpy old fart. I am tired of the political correctness of the current society that paints everything in black or white: Diesel = bad, LiPO = good. If only it were that simple...

But I owe you an apology for bringing 'PA' to your delightful thread about re-powering your H boat. If I had a pretty daysailor like Tonic, I suspect I would want to do exactly the conversion you have chosen. Your electric propulsion is so much more elegant that hanging an ugly OB on the back.

I promise not to get riled by the political correctness of EV discussions in this thread any more. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Me too!  Mea culpa as well…

 

I can’t wait to see a pic of Tonic in the water with no outboard hanging off that lovely stern

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jim in Halifax said:

Well I am definitely a grumpy old fart. I am tired of the political correctness of the current society that paints everything in black or white: Diesel = bad, LiPO = good. If only it were that simple...

But I owe you an apology for bringing 'PA' to your delightful thread about re-powering your H boat. If I had a pretty daysailor like Tonic, I suspect I would want to do exactly the conversion you have chosen. Your electric propulsion is so much more elegant that hanging an ugly OB on the back.

I promise not to get riled by the political correctness of EV discussions in this thread any more. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

 

56 minutes ago, Crash said:

Me too!  Mea culpa as well…

 

I can’t wait to see a pic of Tonic in the water with no outboard hanging off that lovely stern

 

 

 

 

I think it has been a very relevant and interesting discussion. Everyone has been civil and rational. What’s not to like. 
Please carry on. No mea culpas required. 

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On 8/26/2021 at 9:49 PM, 2airishuman said:

To operate a small fossil fuel filling station, all that's required is tankage and dispensing equipment.  You could set up everything from brand new, anywhere in the USA, for around $10,000 per product.  Distributors with tank trucks will then compete for the opportunity to fill up the tanks at market rates.  With a single product (e.g. 88 octane gasoline) and two dispensers you can fill over 10 cars an hour.  You make money on every gallon and your fixed expenses are limited to a relatively token amount of maintenance and depreciation.

I have regulated underground storage tanks in Maine for 25 years.  You missing a 0 in your accounting.  And I don't know any owner who says they make money on fuel.  Depending on your throughput you may have to pay extra to get deliveries because you don't order the min each time.  Underground tanks have to be removed when they are 30 years old.  About half of them are not being replace.  And there still are plenty of stations all across the state. Many of the Majors expect electric to take over.  I think EVs are good but one won't work for me yet.  

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On 8/28/2021 at 6:24 PM, Jim in Halifax said:

I have been to 30 or more different countries and I have been to Columbia. It is neither 'poor' nor third world. It may not be G7, but it has educated people and a decent standard of living. Many can afford cars. Lets talk some African countries, or the countries bordering the Indian sub-continent (India has lots of cars, but not per capita). If we put the money we waste on cars, or a fraction of the G7 military budget,  into solving world hunger and lack of clean water do you think mankind would be a little better off? Naw, just buying a Tesla make me feel like I'm doing my part...

So you've been to Colombia but can't even spell the name of the country!

You can be poor and educated or rich and stupid, Colombia might no be the poorest country but its "GDP per capita" is below the world average  "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita. You wrote  "Most of the world's population can't afford to own or operate a car", beyond the fact that this is a very patronising thing to write (lot of people, lot of cultures and ways of life and dividing earth population between the first world and the rest is just silly). I replied by giving the example of a country which is just below average where there are enough cars to create giant traffic jams and that is very appropriate way to show how misguided your statement was!

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My experience: whenever someone starts to reference Wikipedia, a thread is about to die an ugly, untimely death. 

Please take that 1st grader fight to PA before it ruins this interesting topic for everybody else.

 

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7 minutes ago, Matagi said:

My experience: whenever someone starts to reference Wikipedia, a thread is about to die an ugly, untimely death. 

Please take that 1st grader fight to PA before it ruins this interesting topic for everybody else.

 

Facts can be inconvenient!

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On 8/28/2021 at 5:05 PM, Bull City said:

I think it has been a very relevant and interesting discussion. Everyone has been civil and rational. What’s not to like. 

Well, almost everyone.

@Panoramix Before your recent posts, we had managed to have a positive discussion about EVs, and what it will take for them to be successful, without the snarky, personalized remarks that you seem to use to preface each post. 

On 8/28/2021 at 10:20 AM, Panoramix said:

I suspect that you haven't travelled that much...

2 hours ago, Panoramix said:

So you've been to Colombia but can't even spell the name of the country!

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While I'm sure that an EV is a lovely product to live with if it fits your lifestyle and geography, I can't help having a rather cynical view of the policy/PR push for EV adoption. IIRC transportation accounts for something like 15% of global emissions, and a large chunk of that is from shipping and air travel/freight. If you want to put a real dent in CO2 emissions, its pretty fucking obvious that the real changes need to be made in energy production, agriculture (especially livestock), and manufacturing (especially concrete and steel).  So why the push for EVs? Basically I think its to give the greenies something they can spend a bunch of money on to make them feel warm and fuzzy about doing their bit to save the planet. Meanwhile, its business as usual in the sectors that are really doing the most harm.

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47 minutes ago, WillyT123 said:

While I'm sure that an EV is a lovely product to live with if it fits your lifestyle and geography, I can't help having a rather cynical view of the policy/PR push for EV adoption. IIRC transportation accounts for something like 15% of global emissions, and a large chunk of that is from shipping and air travel/freight. If you want to put a real dent in CO2 emissions, its pretty fucking obvious that the real changes need to be made in energy production, agriculture (especially livestock), and manufacturing (especially concrete and steel).  So why the push for EVs? Basically I think its to give the greenies something they can spend a bunch of money on to make them feel warm and fuzzy about doing their bit to save the planet. Meanwhile, its business as usual in the sectors that are really doing the most harm.

29% in the US in 2019; rch transportation share of emissions

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

Well, almost everyone.

@Panoramix Before your recent posts, we had managed to have a positive discussion about EVs, and what it will take for them to be successful, without the snarky, personalized remarks that you seem to use to preface each post. 

Indeed, and you must have noticed that my tone has changed!

I have no shame in admitting that when in the middle of a documented climate emergency somebody suggests that the first world should carry driving big polluting vehicles because the rest of the world ride bicycles, I struggle not to become snarky and I start mocking!

And when everybody seem to find this attitude normal, I worry for my kids. You guys seem to think that these subjects are political, but they aren't, they are about the physical world we will live in in 30 years which is far more important than who next will be occupying the white house/10 downing street/ the Élysée/etc... .

48 minutes ago, WillyT123 said:

While I'm sure that an EV is a lovely product to live with if it fits your lifestyle and geography, I can't help having a rather cynical view of the policy/PR push for EV adoption. IIRC transportation accounts for something like 15% of global emissions, and a large chunk of that is from shipping and air travel/freight. If you want to put a real dent in CO2 emissions, its pretty fucking obvious that the real changes need to be made in energy production, agriculture (especially livestock), and manufacturing (especially concrete and steel).  So why the push for EVs? Basically I think its to give the greenies something they can spend a bunch of money on to make them feel warm and fuzzy about doing their bit to save the planet. Meanwhile, its business as usual in the sectors that are really doing the most harm.

If you carry on with this logic you do nothing, concrete is less than 10% of global emissions, so using your logic we should carry on with concrete, steel etc...

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The OP started the thread as a discussion of ePropulsion Pod Drive for his application and for other boats. In typical SA fashion, we have drifted into electric cars, global warming and politics (and I take responsibility for my part in the derailling and have apologized to The OP). I hope Captain Bull commences sea trials of the lovely Tonic this week so we can get back to the original topic.

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do I buy an EV to just reduce the pollution in the city and shift more to he poor part or do I think I am saving the world?

Hard to get hard data but a new car doesnt crack carbon neutral till about 100,000 miles.
Then what happens to the battery?

I hope the EU starts the carbon count like calorie count so we all know what we have just bought and the environmental cost.

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@Bull City I must add that I enjoyed this thread and was genuinely interested, grateful for the information you gave, checking progress and positive about your modifications, I just have low tolerance for people who keep finding reason why change is not possible. I also drive an EV and know for a fact that all the reasons they give are at best completely exaggerated and don't understand why they make such a fixation on these cars.

Sorry for this, I shall turn down the snark knob and keep watching...

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1 minute ago, Jim in Halifax said:

The OP started the thread as a discussion of ePropulsion Pod Drive for his application and for other boats. In typical SA fashion, we have drifted into electric cars, global warming and politics (and I take responsibility for my part in the derailling and have apologized to The OP). I hope Captain Bull commences sea trials of the lovely Tonic this week so we can get back to the original topic.

its all connected, no pun intended

electric is nice but we all want to know where it can replace ICE 100% for boats the battery is the issue, they need to be 20 to 50 times better than today.

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If you carry on with this logic you do nothing, concrete is less than 10% of global emissions, so using your logic we should carry on with concrete, steel etc...

That's not what I'm trying to say at all, if anything I'm trying to say the opposite, that all of these thing need our attention but activists and policymakers are all hung up on EVs because its high visibility and it makes money rather than costing money. 

I fear that Jim's right though, while EVs are somewhat topical for this thread we're rapidly veering into PA territory.

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EV's are great in Norway, they dont make any part of them, use hydro elec to power them and I guess export them when finished.

Thats I model I can work with, does it work anywhere else?

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2 minutes ago, WillyT123 said:

That's not what I'm trying to say at all, if anything I'm trying to say the opposite, that all of these thing need our attention but activists and policymakers are all hung up on EVs because its high visibility and it makes money rather than costing money. 

I fear that Jim's right though, while EVs are somewhat topical for this thread we're rapidly veering into PA territory.

I don't think either that EV are a magic bullet but in the context of not adding more CO2 in the atmosphere they can help if you have access to mostly "carbon free" electricity (which is the case for me). You guys keep seeing politics everywhere but I am honestly not sure what is political about these choices, it is just common sense with a bit of engineering in it.

Some steps are harder to take than others but IMO there is nothing wrong in doing the easy ones first.

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3 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

EV's are great in Norway, they dont make any part of them, use hydro elec to power them and I guess export them when finished.

Thats I model I can work with, does it work anywhere else?

It is a matter of enough imagination!

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1 hour ago, Sailabout said:

Hard to get hard data but a new car doesnt crack carbon neutral till about 100,000 miles.

Need to stop you right there. and pardon my crassness, but that is bullshit and I can not believe you took even two minutes to look it up online. The data is readily available.

Life cycle emissions assessments already exist for all types of cars. Result is that off the assembly line an electric car over a 200kkm driven distance creates about half the emissions a fossil fuel one does. and yes, calculated withh the current electricity mix including coal and so on. 

You could switch to the same type of car(a little smaller "tank" aside) and not give up anything aside from 400+km drives in one go and immediatly half your emissions. just like that. 

 

I have not yet seen, to be fair also not looked, such statistics for boats but expect it to be much the same and likely better. Boat diesels aren‘t the cleaniest overall... But also factoring in how the batteries cover all other needs on board and do so better(charge efficiency if nothing else) than traditional lead acids and unless you need long delivery range as some do you‘d probably come out ahead in every scenario. 

If you need sustained high speed propulsion its probably not quite there due to cost of turning it into a hybrid. Though if I needed such and solar does not cover the needs it would be my go to option to have a generator on board to sustain, lets say 50% hull speed. Afterall extra power for maneuvering and short sprints, for ferries or such, is readily available from battery and electric motor buffering shorter peak loads. 

This way you still do get near silent docking and have endurance in those occasions you really need. However it is quite more expensive and still having a jerrycan or two on board.

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3 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Indeed, and you must have noticed that my tone has changed!

I have no shame in admitting that when in the middle of a documented climate emergency somebody suggests that the first world should carry driving big polluting vehicles because the rest of the world ride bicycles, I struggle not to become snarky and I start mocking!

And when everybody seem to find this attitude normal, I worry for my kids. You guys seem to think that these subjects are political, but they aren't, they are about the physical world we will live in in 30 years which is far more important than who next will be occupying the white house/10 downing street/ the Élysée/etc... .

If you carry on with this logic you do nothing, concrete is less than 10% of global emissions, so using your logic we should carry on with concrete, steel etc...

I absolutely take offense in your assumption that I don't care. There is no basis for this. Me and my family look for more sustainable ways to live. Next year, Hybrid's going out, EV is coming in. We eat almost no meat. We have solar tiles.

I just don't like this discussion to happen HERE.

Over the last years EVERYTHING has become effing political and I WAS enjoying this particular thread for being a nice exemption.

Until now.

So can we just PLEASE get back on topic? I am in the planning stage of ripping my old 2hp out and replacing it with a pod so I am GENUINELY INTERESTED in this topic and would like to hear what people's experience with this process is so that I can contribute just a tiny bit to a more carbon-neutral life.

BUT I CAN'T HEAR A THING IF YOU CONTINUE THIS DEBATE HERE FORCHRISAKES.

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5 hours ago, WillyT123 said:

While I'm sure that an EV is a lovely product to live with if it fits your lifestyle and geography, I can't help having a rather cynical view of the policy/PR push for EV adoption. IIRC transportation accounts for something like 15% of global emissions, and a large chunk of that is from shipping and air travel/freight. If you want to put a real dent in CO2 emissions, its pretty fucking obvious that the real changes need to be made in energy production, agriculture (especially livestock), and manufacturing (especially concrete and steel).  So why the push for EVs?

The push for EVs need not come at the exclusion of decarbonizing other sectors, and the negative environmental and health impacts of internal combustion engines extend beyond just CO2 emissions.  ICE cars and the fuel supply chain for them are mature and there are no further meaningful reductions in environmental impact to be made through minor technological improvements or minor policy changes.  The transition to EVs on a broad scale will take time and I am proud to be an early adopter.  I believe that by participating in the early part of the EV transition, by being an advocate for businesses, municipalities, airports, electric utilities, and states to develop charging infrastructure, by allowing legacy auto manufacturers the opportunity to learn how to make EVs at scale, I will be doing my part.

But I also believe that EVs will reduce overall emissions by having a longer useful life.  Cars last longer than they used to but recent large-scale studies show that the economic useful life for ICE vehicles is typically 9-12 years (c.f. University of Minnesota Center for Transportation Studies).  Escalating power train (engine, transmission, driveline) repair costs are a major driver for vehicle replacement, and some evidence is starting to accumulate that electric power trains, on the average, last longer and require fewer repairs.  Time will tell, but this is not yet a mature technology and the fact that early EVs are aging well is a good sign.

Finally, and back on topic, EV technology will spill over into other areas such as marine applications.  The recreational boating market is small compared to the automotive market and cannot afford the R&D on battery packs and battery management that the automotive market is performing.  In time, prices will come down, capacities will grow, other applications will be possible, and electric drives with sufficient range will be within reach for a growing number of boats.

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Sea trial set for Wednesday, September 1. If all goes well, TONIC should be home after Labor Day.

You're thinking, "Oh no! Poor Bull is going to miss sailing on Labor Day Weekend! Woe is him." Think again. Bull avoids sailing on Labor Day Weekend as though it were the Plague. It's usually hot and windless, and the lake is teeming with speeding motorboats, driven by yahoos, pulling all manner of contraptions. All in all, it is absolutely revolting.

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Just now, Bull City said:

Sea trial set for Wednesday, September 1. If all goes well, TONIC should be home after Labor Day.

You're thinking, "Oh no! Poor Bull is going to miss sailing on Labor Day Weekend! Woe is him." Think again. Bull avoids sailing on Labor Day Weekend as though it were the Plague. It's usually hot and windless, and the lake is teeming with speeding motorboats, driven by yahoos, pulling all manner of contraptions. All in all, it is absolutely revolting.

It's generally an excellent weekend to work on the boat. The yard is quiet, the weather is usually good, and the most annoying people are out and about elsewhere.

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As I've mentioned on this thread, and elsewhere, I have been sailing TONIC since May 2015. I switched to an electric OB in January 2017 for a number of reasons:

  • Gas & oil are smelly
  • Small gas OBs require a lot of maintenance and can be unreliable
  • My sailing venue is such that range was not a problem
  • Environment: noise, emissions, spillage

A few guys on the dock made the "clever" observation that I wasn't really doing much for the environment, because the electricity I was using was generated by fossil fuels. This may be true, but at least as electric power generation moves away from fossil fuels toward nuclear and renewables, I will be part of the solution. This goes for EV owners too. 

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8 hours ago, Panoramix said:

@Bull City I must add that I enjoyed this thread and was genuinely interested, grateful for the information you gave, checking progress and positive about your modifications, I just have low tolerance for people who keep finding reason why change is not possible. I also drive an EV and know for a fact that all the reasons they give are at best completely exaggerated and don't understand why they make such a fixation on these cars.

Sorry for this, I shall turn down the snark knob and keep watching...

You probably don't travel more than 100km - France isn't very big.

I've just done 600km in the last few days, 400km of that in a single day, the last bit in 4WD in first gear to an off grid place with PV power. The diesel powered flat tray light truck was carrying some 600kg of building materials and tools. When I leave here I expect to be driving some 1400 km just to get back to Tasmania. I have a range of 700km carrying over 500kg payload and can carry more fuel to extend my range.

You live in a small country with short travel distances yet you consistently fail to realise that others don't.

It's like your same argument WRT electric boats. Yes there's a good use-case for them in certain areas but you cannot extrapolate that to all situations and then claim that people who disagree are nothing but Luddite planet-wreckers. Which is what you do and it's both wrong and boring.

I built this place off-grid and appreciate both the strengths and weaknesses of the approach. I do have a small generator but hate the noise it makes so try never to use it. I've just brought up more PV panels but of course without also increasing storage capacity all that buys is faster battery recharge and maybe better recharge on overcast/rainy days. And so the cycle goes...

I'm interested in reading about Bull's sea trials as well.

FKT

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35 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

You probably don't travel more than 100km - France isn't very big.

I've just done 600km in the last few days, 400km of that in a single day, the last bit in 4WD in first gear to an off grid place with PV power. The diesel powered flat tray light truck was carrying some 600kg of building materials and tools. When I leave here I expect to be driving some 1400 km just to get back to Tasmania. I have a range of 700km carrying over 500kg payload and can carry more fuel to extend my range.

You live in a small country with short travel distances yet you consistently fail to realise that others don't.

It's like your same argument WRT electric boats. Yes there's a good use-case for them in certain areas but you cannot extrapolate that to all situations and then claim that people who disagree are nothing but Luddite planet-wreckers. Which is what you do and it's both wrong and boring.

I built this place off-grid and appreciate both the strengths and weaknesses of the approach. I do have a small generator but hate the noise it makes so try never to use it. I've just brought up more PV panels but of course without also increasing storage capacity all that buys is faster battery recharge and maybe better recharge on overcast/rainy days. And so the cycle goes...

I'm interested in reading about Bull's sea trials as well.

FKT

Traveling across France is a 1000km trip. Last week I drove 400km, it is easy, I have 300km autonomy, I just made a 30min stop at the 250km mark. 

I never pretended EV work in all situations, just that it works for many as wasting hours and hours in a car is simply something most people don't do!

It's funny how you guys get defensive when alternatives to your ways are proposed. 

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The ev outboard That I bought can be had with a hydroGenerator that recharges the battery when traveling above 5kts.  If we had more wind you could almost have perpetual power based on boat speed and thermal winds.  Epower in morning, sail[gen]power in the evening.  My boat was to small but a good sport boat could pull it off.

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10 hours ago, allweather said:

Need to stop you right there. and pardon my crassness, but that is bullshit and I can not believe you took even two minutes to look it up online. The data is readily available.

Life cycle emissions assessments already exist for all types of cars. Result is that off the assembly line an electric car over a 200kkm driven distance creates about half the emissions a fossil fuel one does. and yes, calculated withh the current electricity mix including coal and so on. 

You could switch to the same type of car(a little smaller "tank" aside) and not give up anything aside from 400+km drives in one go and immediatly half your emissions. just like that. 

 

I have not yet seen, to be fair also not looked, such statistics for boats but expect it to be much the same and likely better. Boat diesels aren‘t the cleaniest overall... But also factoring in how the batteries cover all other needs on board and do so better(charge efficiency if nothing else) than traditional lead acids and unless you need long delivery range as some do you‘d probably come out ahead in every scenario. 

If you need sustained high speed propulsion its probably not quite there due to cost of turning it into a hybrid. Though if I needed such and solar does not cover the needs it would be my go to option to have a generator on board to sustain, lets say 50% hull speed. Afterall extra power for maneuvering and short sprints, for ferries or such, is readily available from battery and electric motor buffering shorter peak loads. 

This way you still do get near silent docking and have endurance in those occasions you really need. However it is quite more expensive and still having a jerrycan or two on board.

https://ricardo.com/news-and-media/news-and-press/ricardo-study-demonstrates-importance-of-whole-lif

Based upon a 2015 vehicle in use for 150k KM using 10% ethanol blend and 500g/KWH grid electricity.
( so whats the average mileage to end of life?)
The environment takes a big hit to make an EV

 

Estimated lifecycle emissions
(tonnes CO2e)

 

Proportion of emissions in production

 

Estimated emissions in production
(tonnes CO2e)

 

Standard gasoline vehicle

24

 

23%

 

5.6

 

Hybrid vehicle

21

 

31%

 

6.5

 

Plug-in hybrid vehicle

19

 

35%

 

6.7

 

Battery electric vehicle

19

 

46%

 

8.8

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11 hours ago, Panoramix said:

+ wind + solar + waves + tidal currents...

 

you need to look at the coal input to silicone and carbon and their life spans, hydro and nuclear plants have a very long lifecycle.
Its the whole carbon input cycle that I am referring to.

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2 hours ago, guerdon said:

The ev outboard That I bought can be had with a hydroGenerator that recharges the battery when traveling above 5kts.  If we had more wind you could almost have perpetual power based on boat speed and thermal winds.  Epower in morning, sail[gen]power in the evening.  My boat was to small but a good sport boat could pull it off.

nice dream but we are not there yet.
One of our yacht club members on his 24'tri went torqueedo, still has the 6hp.
We have current stream running through the moorings, the torqueedo struggles with current and wind.
As for open water it runs for 15 minutes then he plugs another battery in.
If the battery was 20-50x better to compete with ICE we would all have electric outboards.
Torqueedo is about as good as a 3hp, just.

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17 hours ago, WillyT123 said:

While I'm sure that an EV is a lovely product to live with if it fits your lifestyle and geography, I can't help having a rather cynical view of the policy/PR push for EV adoption. IIRC transportation accounts for something like 15% of global emissions, and a large chunk of that is from shipping and air travel/freight. If you want to put a real dent in CO2 emissions, its pretty fucking obvious that the real changes need to be made in energy production, agriculture (especially livestock), and manufacturing (especially concrete and steel).  So why the push for EVs? Basically I think its to give the greenies something they can spend a bunch of money on to make them feel warm and fuzzy about doing their bit to save the planet. Meanwhile, its business as usual in the sectors that are really doing the most harm.

Cars matter in several ways, e.g.

  1. They are a significant chunk of overall emissions, so shifting them to a less polluting form of energy matters
  2. Thy have a relatively short life-cycle, of about 8 years, which is a lot less than for buildings or power stations.  So they can make the energy change relatively rapidly
  3. They are mostly consumer purchases, so the decision to switch to a cleaner vehicle can be made sooner than the slow reactions of companies and governments.

Of course, cars are only a minority of emissions, so other sectors need to change too.

But saying you won't do the quick ad easy bit until all the hard bit are done is a recipe for doing nothing.

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5 hours ago, Sailabout said:

https://ricardo.com/news-and-media/news-and-press/ricardo-study-demonstrates-importance-of-whole-lif

Based upon a 2015 vehicle in use for 150k KM using 10% ethanol blend and 500g/KWH grid electricity.
( so whats the average mileage to end of life?)
The environment takes a big hit to make an EV

 

Estimated lifecycle emissions
(tonnes CO2e)

 

Proportion of emissions in production

 

Estimated emissions in production
(tonnes CO2e)

 

Standard gasoline vehicle

24

 

23%

 

5.6

 

Hybrid vehicle

21

 

31%

 

6.5

 

Plug-in hybrid vehicle

19

 

35%

 

6.7

 

Battery electric vehicle

19

 

46%

 

8.8

That was first class selective quoting. I add the bit you conveniently forgot :

"ELECTRIC and hybrid cars create more carbon emissions during their production than standard vehicles – but are still greener overall, according to a new report.
"

5 hours ago, Sailabout said:

you need to look at the coal input to silicone and carbon and their life spans, hydro and nuclear plants have a very long lifecycle.
Its the whole carbon input cycle that I am referring to.

What? The goal post moving is impressive, initially you pretended that there are only 2 sources of low carbon electricity generation, I give you 4 more falsifying your statement and you weasel out with the coal included during manufacturing... Well yes there will always be some emissions but what really matter is diminishing them and for energy generation stopping the burning of fossil fuels seems the best thing to do!

Anyway, the fallacious argument to honest discussion ratio here is too high so don't expect more replies from me!

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23 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

"ELECTRIC and hybrid cars create more carbon emissions during their production than standard vehicles – but are still greener overall, according to a new report.

greener overall when? How the electricity is produced will have lots to do with that both at the plant that built the cars and battery and for the consumer driving the EV.


2 Grandma's in a town that drive 10k a year, one buys ev one buys ice.
The ev keeps the emissions in town down from day 1, nice, ICE pollutes from day 1.

The total carbon footprint, when does the EV pass the ICE vehicle due to the greener footprint of the ice when built.
How long do the cars last?
What happens to that battery at the end of life?

I hope the EU steps in asap and makes law about the batteries as in either compulsory buy back or recycle.
Of course green hydrogen would put at EV way in front of a 100% battery one.

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29 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

I hope the EU steps in asap and makes law about the batteries as in either compulsory buy back or recycle.

Actually, it seems so far there may not be any need for regulatory intervention.  There is a very healthy market for discarded EV batteries, which are re-used in non-mobile batteries where energy density is less important.

Basically, the EV battery in your ten-year-old Nissan Leaf probably won;t have a useful range any more, because the Leaf had  poor battery management and only passive cooling.  The rest of the car will probably be fine, so a battery swap will give you lots more use out of the vehicle ... while your old battery becomes bulk storage for an off-grid building, or  domestic solar.

The main problem with reuse is that supply is far lower than demand.  Even the worst-managed EV batteries (in the Leaf) are lasting much longer than expected before mass deployment, while Tesla battery degradation is trivial.

38 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

Of course green hydrogen would put at EV way in front of a 100% battery one.

Hmm.  Maybe in theory, but in practice I am not so sure that widespread deployment of hydrogen infrastructure is ever going to be viable.   It's more likely to be deployed for high-density heavy usage, e.g. long-distance haulage.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

@Panoramix too much time in Brexit Island can be bad for the soul, but your tenure as an expat seems to have included attaining high standards of Pythonism.

It takes some effort and some learning to survive in an office packed with witty engineers!

The UK I got to know was more open, welcoming, multicultural and positive than the UK of today. We left in 2012 after 10 years in the country and the atmosphere was already deteriorating (Mrs May was sending in the streets vans with ads telling immigrants to go home). On the positive side the best comedy and music tend to come out when they go through difficult periods so I am waiting patiently for the next Pythons...

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You guys are missing the point about EVs.  I am all electric for five years now.  It is totally selfish, you get to:

1.  have tax breaks

2.  drive in the carpool lane with one driver, saves hours over the year

3. get money back from PG&E

4.  get awesome torque and acceleration

5. preferred parking spaces

6. quiet driving

7. low maintenance

8.  reduction in exposure to benzene products

9. not be closely chained to the petroleum industrial complex 

10. have a holier than thou smirk on my face

 

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22 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Actually, it seems so far there may not be any need for regulatory intervention.  There is a very healthy market for discarded EV batteries, which are re-used in non-mobile batteries where energy density is less important.

Basically, the EV battery in your ten-year-old Nissan Leaf probably won;t have a useful range any more, because the Leaf had  poor battery management and only passive cooling.  The rest of the car will probably be fine, so a battery swap will give you lots more use out of the vehicle ... while your old battery becomes bulk storage for an off-grid building, or  domestic solar.

The main problem with reuse is that supply is far lower than demand.  Even the worst-managed EV batteries (in the Leaf) are lasting much longer than expected before mass deployment, while Tesla battery degradation is trivial.

Hmm.  Maybe in theory, but in practice I am not so sure that widespread deployment of hydrogen infrastructure is ever going to be viable.   It's more likely to be deployed for high-density heavy usage, e.g. long-distance haulage.

the only problem with letting the battery go to 2nd users is regulations are lost, they will be dumped everywhere unless they have a value?

Re the Hydrogen its solid state storage that would be the breakthrough, or as you say its a huge and complex supply chain.

https://plasmakinetics.com/

 

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16 minutes ago, Sailabout said:

the only problem with letting the battery go to 2nd users is regulations are lost, they will be dumped everywhere unless they have a value?

My point is that used EV batteries do have a significant value, so won't be dumped for a long time to come.  If an old 24Kwhr Nissan leaf battery has degraded to to only 10KWhr capacity, that's too small for anything other than v local use in a car ... but 10KWhr is huge for someone living off-grid, and costs many thousands if you try to do it with FLA.

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3 hours ago, Sailabout said:

the only problem with letting the battery go to 2nd users is regulations are lost, they will be dumped everywhere unless they have a value?

Mister "Problem finder in chief"

Batteries are expensive, some clever folks will find how to repurpose them. It's like copper, you never see copper going to waste for a long time as it is valuable and there is always somebody to reuse or recycle it.

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Recycling lithium ion packs is an unsolved problem.  They aren't particularly toxic if landfilled.  But so far no one has come up with a cost-effective process for recovering the lithium to a sufficient level of purity for reuse, and that's the bulk of the mass.  There are some processes for recovering the cobalt and landfilling the rest, which is a step, I guess.

 

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4 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Mister "Problem finder in chief"

Batteries are expensive, some clever folks will find how to repurpose them. It's like copper, you never see copper going to waste for a long time as it is valuable and there is always somebody to reuse or recycle it.

Of course, finding problems, and then identifying solutions (or more importantly lack of a solution) is what prevents unintended consequences down the road.  Successfully dealing with the challenges of batteries is critical to not causing a secondary environmental negative effect in the future.  While the biggest issue today from a environmental standpoint is global warming, that doesn't mean it's the only environmental issue that we will ever need to solve or address...

For example, today, we need to move (mine) 500,000lbs of earth to make 1000lbs worth of battery pack (Source: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/08/31/biden-electric-vehicles-problems-yergin-507599)...so while it's maybe not strip mining for coal, there are serious and considerable negative environmental impacts from mining that much earth at a scale necessary to support a largely all EV vehicle approach.  So that, to me, is a problem that needs to be addressed in a serious and thoughtful way.  It doesn't mean we shouldn't have EVs.  It means we need to acknowledge, solve and/or mitigate the challenges and issues EVs cause.

 

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

Of course, finding problems, and then identifying solutions (or more importantly lack of a solution) is what prevents unintended consequences down the road.  Successfully dealing with the challenges of batteries is critical to not causing a secondary environmental negative effect in the future.  While the biggest issue today from a environmental standpoint is global warming, that doesn't mean it's the only environmental issue that we will ever need to solve or address...

For example, today, we need to move (mine) 500,000lbs of earth to make 1000lbs worth of battery pack (Source: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/08/31/biden-electric-vehicles-problems-yergin-507599)...so while it's maybe not strip mining for coal, there are serious and considerable negative environmental impacts from mining that much earth at a scale necessary to support a largely all EV vehicle approach.  So that, to me, is a problem that needs to be addressed in a serious and thoughtful way.  It doesn't mean we shouldn't have EVs.  It means we need to acknowledge, solve and/or mitigate the challenges and issues EVs cause.

 

Some people keep finding imaginary problems... Saying that engineering some kind of electric regulation that can care old cells is problematic is far fetched. Sure there will be differences between the various cells but that isn't such an impossible task, they will just take bigger safety margins to take care of the uncertainty. No earlier than Monday I was powering my QRP ham radio with 10 years old LIPO batteries scavenged from an old RC plane. These are well beyond their youth, I just charge them slowly and don't stress them, they stay cold.... I am not an Electrical engineer, a proper electrical engineer will find safe ways to manage reused cells !

All human activities have an impact on the environment and it is all about finding ways to make these consequences acceptable and manageable, the CO2 excess in the atmosphere is about to become unmanageable and people will never accept to be deprived of their cars.... so we need to go for the "least worst" option. Digging the ground is not such a big sin as long as you don't pollute it in the process. When cheap used batteries will be available on the market, intermittent sources of energy (wind and solar) will become more viable...

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19 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

Digging the ground is not such a big sin as long as you don't pollute it in the process.

Well, unless your an endangered plant living where they want to mine:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.8newsnow.com/news/local/government-to-list-nevada-plant-as-endangered-threatening-lithium-mine-project/amp/

Or it threatens water supplies and indigenous  peoples:

https://www.panoramas.pitt.edu/economy-and-development/double-edged-sword-lithium-mining’s-sustainability-south-america
 

Again, not that we shouldn’t continue to develop and move towards EVs.  But “hand waving” away the issues and challenges only gives the opposition ammunition.  There is no such thing as a free lunch.  That’s as true for EVs as anything else.

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9 minutes ago, Crash said:

Well, unless your an endangered plant living where they want to mine:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.8newsnow.com/news/local/government-to-list-nevada-plant-as-endangered-threatening-lithium-mine-project/amp/

Or it threatens water supplies and indigenous  peoples:

https://www.panoramas.pitt.edu/economy-and-development/double-edged-sword-lithium-mining’s-sustainability-south-america
 

Again, not that we shouldn’t continue to develop and move towards EVs.  But “hand waving” away the issues and challenges only gives the opposition ammunition.  There is no such thing as a free lunch.  That’s as true for EVs as anything else.

Well yes, nevertheless these high standards need to be applied to everybody. It is very dishonest from the oil corps to point out the disadvantages of mining for batteries while they've trashed some parts of Africa : https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/dec/06/this-place-used-to-be-green-the-brutal-impact-of-oil-in-the-niger-delta

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Sea trial today went well. We launched TONIC without the rig, and most everything normally aboard had been stripped before the work began. No leaking! We weren't really concerned but it was encouraging. 

The launch was at Sail Craft Services in Oriental. We motored around the areas shown for almost an hour at various speeds.

oriental.thumb.png.82728686772e2e18be6e7800ded1583f.png

At the bottom of this image is the Neuse River, which is several miles wide. There was a 20 - 25 knot wind from the South, which was blowing right up the creek and created a pretty good chop (we got wet). We didn't go out into the river. I have never seen so many white caps on it.

The pod handled it very well. WOT got us to about 5.8 knots. The boat was able to punch through chop easily. I recall motoring into a 15 knot breeze with the Torqeedo (3 HP) and having some tenseness in my sphincter. The pod was very robust.

Maneuverability was excellent. I was very pleased.

I didn't have the opportunity to record Watts and Knots, and battery depletion stuff. I'll do this on the lake on a glassy day. 

The boat was slightly down at the stern, maybe 1 to 2 inches. With the rig, a lot of that should go away. We can add a water bladder or wine bottles if necessary. Keeping fore and aft trim is important. I don't want marine growth above the bottom paint.

Here we are speeding along:

7ADC3502-1FFA-43D5-9800-A09089B561C2_1_105_c.thumb.jpeg.312b1c3fef633a62758471d0f306be26.jpeg

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

As soon as the wallet extraction procedure is complete.

I had a partial cashectomy about a month ago. It was much better than a colonoscopy.

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6 minutes ago, Ishmael said:
11 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

When is the patient returning home?

 

Next week or the following week. I'm a bit grumpy about the time this has taken.

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She looks great Bull.  5.8 knots for a 27 foot boat with a relatively short waterline is pretty impressive!  To do that kinda speed with no significant engine noise is even more impressive.

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21 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Mister "Problem finder in chief"

Batteries are expensive, some clever folks will find how to repurpose them. It's like copper, you never see copper going to waste for a long time as it is valuable and there is always somebody to reuse or recycle it.

Expensive to make doesn't mean valuable when used, and we crush lots of cars every year, saying that yes some of the current battery packs are still useful repurposed but that wont absorb what comes from cars.
I prefer and so should governments to way up the long term issues not just hope it goes away.

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2 hours ago, Sailabout said:

Expensive to make doesn't mean valuable when used, and we crush lots of cars every year, saying that yes some of the current battery packs are still useful repurposed but that wont absorb what comes from cars.
I prefer and so should governments to way up the long term issues not just hope it goes away.

The obvious solution is to reuse the discarded battery packs as both household-level and grid-level energy storage.  The industry is way ahead of the regulators, and is doing this already.

Sure, the regulators may need to anticipate a point where static storage has already reached usable capacity, and some of the more heavily-degraded batteries need to be recycled rather than reused.  But that point is a long way off, maybe as much as a decade off.

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10 hours ago, Crash said:

She looks great Bull.  5.8 knots for a 27 foot boat with a relatively short waterline is pretty impressive!  To do that kinda speed with no significant engine noise is even more impressive.

Thanks, Crash. I was really impressed with the power. I know there has been a lot said about the tendency of electric OB companies to overstate HP, but this really felt like 6 HP.

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9 hours ago, Sailabout said:

Expensive to make doesn't mean valuable when used, and we crush lots of cars every year, saying that yes some of the current battery packs are still useful repurposed but that wont absorb what comes from cars.
I prefer and so should governments to way up the long term issues not just hope it goes away.

May be it is time to stop rehashing the same argument again and again ?

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On 8/30/2021 at 10:14 AM, Panoramix said:

I don't think either that EV are a magic bullet but in the context of not adding more CO2 in the atmosphere they can help if you have access to mostly "carbon free" electricity (which is the case for me). You guys keep seeing politics everywhere but I am honestly not sure what is political about these choices, it is just common sense with a bit of engineering in it.

Some steps are harder to take than others but IMO there is nothing wrong in doing the easy ones first.

I think the problem is that some "special interests" made climate change a political issue. Responding to it required many changes and inconvenience, which people tend to resist. So the sowing of the seeds of doubt fell on fertile ground.

Normally, we believe what the scientific community tells us, be it medical advice, weather, food safety, and many other issues. One of he results of the efforts by these "special interests" is that many people have chosen to ignore or dispute valid science.

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Well some of the Special Interest folks tends towards exaggeration, hyperbole, or the use of overly optimistic assumptions which then plants some seeds of doubt, which others than can richly fertilize with manure…

But when you try to impose sweeping change via Executive Orders, as both the President and the Governor of California have done in regards to EV mandates, vice making such change via the legislative system (i.e making it law) then you have indeed made it political, and you leave yourself open to the opposing party canceling those self same order should the come to power…

 

Now, hopefully back to more pics and videos of Tonic in her element B)

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20 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Is there a way to post them

Not on site, you need to upload them to some kind of platform as Ishmael said. Would love to see that in addition to what you've already posted. That picture was at WOT?

Anyway, you already said maneuverability was good? So flow over the rudder has proven sufficient and you aren't missing the ability to turn the prop? And stopping works well too?(I expect it given the prop, but is there much of any noticable difference between forward and backwards thrust?)

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2 hours ago, allweather said:

Not on site, you need to upload them to some kind of platform as Ishmael said. Would love to see that in addition to what you've already posted. That picture was at WOT?

Anyway, you already said maneuverability was good? So flow over the rudder has proven sufficient and you aren't missing the ability to turn the prop? And stopping works well too?(I expect it given the prop, but is there much of any noticable difference between forward and backwards thrust?)

I'm loading a video on YouTube.

I was stunned by the increase in power - forward and reverse - so backing is much more effective.

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47 minutes ago, Bull City said:

It's not very good;

You already know about landscape mode next time then ;)

I already liked what you've shown. Really goes through the waves with aplomb. Really shows what three times the power and a more suitable prop placement does!

Like that I can easily believe its ability to stop the boat as well. Eager to see her sailing again.

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30 minutes ago, Crash said:

And very little wake even at full power.

I don't know the latter boat.... For the H-boat though it does produce little wake generally until 6kn or so.
Which matches the hull speed somewhere around 6,5kn where the wake suddenly sucks up all along the transom.(or the boat drop into its trough, however one wants to put it)

Or did you mean something else and I just missed the point?

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Thank you for sharing the info and congrats on a great result.  I’m going to try an eprop spirit evo outboard on a lighter 21 ft.  It’s on back order.   Where did you mount the remote lever and display?  

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

And very little wake even at full power.  Kinda like Kim B's FRANCIS

 

51 minutes ago, allweather said:

I don't know the latter boat....

654009056_FrancisLee.thumb.png.d21a629dbf5a9ea9ed82166ff150a0a6.pngFrankie is @kimbottles's @Bob Perry-designed masterpiece.  With her own huge thread here on CA, chronicling her design, build and adventures:

 

 

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4 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

 

654009056_FrancisLee.thumb.png.d21a629dbf5a9ea9ed82166ff150a0a6.pngFrankie is @kimbottles's @Bob Perry-designed masterpiece.  With her own huge thread here on CA, chronicling her design, build and adventures:

 

 

An excellent, interesting read of a beautiful build, if you've a few hours (days!) of free time this winter.

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