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IOR landfills?

LordBooster

By LordBooster,
in Sailing Anarchy

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LB 15

It was an odd time the late IOR period. Fantastic fleets, great racing and many beautiful looking boats that were absolute cunts of things to sail. Back them most  owners actually knew how to sail and

ronnie_simpson

I just found this thread while doing a Google search on my new boat, but I bought the Peterson designed Serendipity 43 that someone linked to back in February. Bit of a distress sale, so I think I got

Weyalan

Having renovated an IOR 1-tonner, I feel obliged to point out that there are way cheaper ways to get a tidy boat on to a start line

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12 metre

12 metre 656

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, SloopJohnB said:

How about the JU-87 Stuka stile cabin top??

image.png.9c4d0adbd27dfe728ce7f2db2ff76aa4.png

 

From the Facebook group of the same name.

I think that may be the one with the "pop top" cabin I mentioned either earlier in this thread or another one.

Yes that was all about headroom requirement.

IIRC, the whole cabin structure could be made to collapse when actually sailing - making one huge cockpit up to the mast.  My guess is they had a light cover they could place over it when collapsed.

My recollection was a bit hazy though as I thought the cockpit extended to the bow rather than the mast.

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SloopJonB

SloopJonB 12,565

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Mudsailor said:

Yes, but IIRC it was only for the ton classes, ‘regular’ IOR didn’t require it

That's why the world ended up with absurdities like 40' "offshore" boats with 5'6" headroom.

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P_Wop

P_Wop 3,413

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

That's why the world ended up with absurdities like 40' "offshore" boats with 5'6" headroom.

Try standing up in the average Class 40, mate!  Not much has changed.

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SloopJonB

SloopJonB 12,565

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, LordBooster said:

Guy 33 half-tonner from -81 designed by Guy-Christer Lönngren

Kan vara en bild av jordens vatten

https://www.nettivene.com/guy/33/692872

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/guy-33

 

That freak Cascade aside, that is the biggest 1/2 Tonner I've ever seen.

It's even bigger than Jones ultra distorted Tumblehome.

 

Jones Freak.jpg

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12 metre

12 metre 656

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

That freak Cascade aside, that is the biggest 1/2 Tonner I've ever seen.

It's even bigger than Jones ultra distorted Tumblehome.

 

Jones Freak.jpg

Yeah...nah.

Tumblehome II has almost a foot on her in both length (34') and beam (10.6').

 

78 11 VV HTC Tumb.jpg

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SloopJonB

SloopJonB 12,565

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, 12 metre said:

Yeah...nah.

Tumblehome II has almost a foot on her in both length (34') and beam (10.6').

I stand corrected - I thought TH was 32'.

Still, both of them are the size of 3/4 Tonners.

 

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BoatSlut

BoatSlut 23

Posted
Posted
On 10/29/2021 at 9:16 AM, Recidivist said:

The Farr 11.6 was not an IOR design.  They rated over 2 Ton while at the same time several Farr 2 Tonner designs were being built at 42' - 4' longer but rating lower.  The 11.6 was, however, a very wholesome design - seakindly, easily driven and with no vices.  Many were used as charter boats in the Whitsundays - the transom scoop on this one suggests that she also came from this background.

I did an airlie on that boat

 

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12 metre

12 metre 656

Posted
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On 10/31/2021 at 10:55 PM, Irish River said:

20211031_142837.thumb.jpg.84b09b876de4c1a403f3eeaa3aa473ea.jpgHagar under the tent ready for some love

Stern shot of "The Fabulous Hagar" at Shelter island.  Hull in pretty good condition other than some peeled varnish on the topsides.  May need a few strips of cedar veneer replaced - but the exposed portions of cedar looked more weathered than rotten to me, but I'm not a wood expert.

JR ended up getting her - so she is in good hands.

Looks like the rudder was updated sometime in the past.

107.JPG

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SloopJonB

SloopJonB 12,565

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, LordBooster said:

Doug Peterson designed ONE-TONNER from -74, one of two built by Cooper Yachts

Kan vara en bild av jordens vatten

https://boats-from-usa.com/not-specified/peterson-ganbare-249876

 

Cooper built a lot more than two - there were at least 1/2 dozen of those Mk 1's here and a couple or more sold elsewhere.

Then his manager Don Martin took the moulds and set up on his own with a new deck design and built a passel of them (40?) and then modded it again with a new deck, keel & rig into the Mk 3 and built a few more

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12 metre

12 metre 656

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Cooper built a lot more than two - there were at least 1/2 dozen of those Mk 1's here and a couple or more sold elsewhere.

Then his manager Don Martin took the moulds and set up on his own with a new deck design and built a passel of them (40?) and then modded it again with a new deck, keel & rig into the Mk 3 and built a few more

Maybe they meant only two Cooper Ganbares with the Brit Chance keel (like on "Not By Bread Alone").

Because way more than 2 of the Cooper ones built like you said. - probably close to 10 in total.

Advertised price of $1,000 must be a teaser - because I don't think I've ever seen one this nice and with the foil and rig upgrades.  Keel is much deeper and higher AR than the stock ones and elliptical rudder.  Mast looks newish.  Newish diesel.  Very modern albeit dark interior.

Only downsides I can see are the sail inventory and the fact it is a pintail.

But heck, if this boat has no other issues, she would be a deal at 10x the advertised price.

 

 

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floater

floater 695

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, 12 metre said:

Maybe they meant only two Cooper Ganbares with the Brit Chance keel (like on "Not By Bread Alone").

Because way more than 2 of the Cooper ones built like you said. - probably close to 10 in total.

Advertised price of $1,000 must be a teaser - because I don't think I've ever seen one this nice and with the foil and rig upgrades.  Keel is much deeper and higher AR than the stock ones and elliptical rudder.  Mast looks newish.  Newish diesel.  Very modern albeit dark interior.

Only downsides I can see are the sail inventory and the fact it is a pintail.

But heck, if this boat has no other issues, she would be a deal at 10x the advertised price.

oops. I just noticed the patio lights mounted on the dove grey bulkheads..

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silent bob

silent bob 1,257

Posted
Posted
On 11/2/2021 at 2:28 PM, 12 metre said:

Stern shot of "The Fabulous Hagar" at Shelter island.  Hull in pretty good condition other than some peeled varnish on the topsides.  May need a few strips of cedar veneer replaced - but the exposed portions of cedar looked more weathered than rotten to me, but I'm not a wood expert.

JR ended up getting her - so she is in good hands.

Looks like the rudder was updated sometime in the past.

107.JPG

Jason will treat it well!  

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SloopJonB

SloopJonB 12,565

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, LordBooster said:

Frers 59 Alloy Custom – Temptation – now asking Euro 125k VAT paid

Kan vara en bild av jordens vatten

https://www.grabauinternational.com/news/price-reduction-1983-frers-59-alloy-custom-3/

 

OOOOOO.

One of my unrealized dreams has been to have a boat big enough for coffee grinders.

That thing looks like a real bargain. I think my net worth would probably stretch to a new carbon jib.

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Maxx Baqustae

Maxx Baqustae 323

Posted
Posted
On 11/4/2021 at 10:14 PM, zenmasterfred said:

Damn, so glad the Fabulous Hagar will live to slay another day.

Good to know. I remember her arriving at the 3/4 ton world's. A fabulous boat for certain and considered plain compared to some of the designs on the day. Buchan's Chance design. The first Pendragon and way out there "Riotous Assembly"! But they didn't make it to compete. Hagar did pretty well considering the competition. They ended up 5th IRC. (my shot btw as I was there)

   

003_7.jpg

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spennig

spennig 70

Posted
Posted
24 minutes ago, Maxx Baqustae said:

Good to know. I remember her arriving at the 3/4 ton world's. A fabulous boat for certain and considered plain compared to some of the designs on the day. Buchan's Chance design. The first Pendragon and way out there "Riotous Assembly"! But they didn't make it to compete. Hagar did pretty well considering the competition. They ended up 5th IRC. (my shot btw as I was there)

   

003_7.jpg

Prior to the infamous "bump gauge" and associated penalties on measurement point radius of curvature.

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SloopJonB

SloopJonB 12,565

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Maxx Baqustae said:

Good to know. I remember her arriving at the 3/4 ton world's. A fabulous boat for certain and considered plain compared to some of the designs on the day. Buchan's Chance design. The first Pendragon and way out there "Riotous Assembly"! But they didn't make it to compete. Hagar did pretty well considering the competition. They ended up 5th IRC. (my shot btw as I was there)

   

003_7.jpg

Did those crazy flat forefoots do anything to assist surfing or were they just measurement bumps?

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Maxx Baqustae

Maxx Baqustae 323

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Did those crazy flat forefoots do anything to assist surfing or were they just measurement bumps?

I think it was a IOR measurement thing. A lot of crazy things going on in those days. Just after that the rule/measurement people got into the mix to "fix" things. But designers are smarter than rule makers as t's their job to make that happen. One of the death of the IOR IMHO with the bandage thinking. Nobody was trying to cheat as per but the designers and owners would take the rule to the max. Riotous from another angle. Looking at as static it would look almost normal. It wasn't a good build really as t never mad it to the regatta. Swiftsure was it's shake down race and it shook the mast box so bad enough they almost sank. That said: it was blowing 35 knots from the start We turned around ourselves as the boat hadn't been tested much and the rig was a little iffy. 

 

   

001_33.jpg

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12 metre

12 metre 656

Posted
Posted
55 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Did those crazy flat forefoots do anything to assist surfing or were they just measurement bumps?

I would call those creases rather than bumps.  Surfing may have been part of the equation - but mainly it was about increasing Forward Depth Immersed (FDI), which IIRC was the hull depth at 1/8 B from centreline.  Niels Jeppesen used the same thing in his 3/4 Tons - and probably in other of his Ton class designs as well.

Edit: crease may not be the right term - fold is probably more appropriate.  As in origami.

34 minutes ago, spennig said:

Pre 1980 rating bumps.

I think the radius limits must have come in well after 1980, because Jeppesen did the same if not more extreme crease in boats like the X-102 (below) and almost identical hulled (if not identical) X-3/4 Ton below winning 8 of the 9 3/4 Ton Worlds from '81 through '89.  The lone exception being '83.

5713054L.jpg

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spennig

spennig 70

Posted
Posted (edited)

The bump radius penalty was introduced in 1980, the history is:

  • At the 1979 AC in Cowes, when Blizzard was on the hard it was noticed there were "chines" running a couple of metres either side of the CMD, MD and OMD measure points. These were quite blatant hard chines, solely for measurement purposes.
  • In November 1979 the ORC introduced the radius of curvature measurement and penalty.
  • The RORC Rating Office was tasked with designing, getting manufactured and distributing the bump gauge to other national authorities.
  • I joined the staff of the RORC Rating Office at this time; my second job was to generate tables the measurer used to relate the gauge reading to the measured 'B' and indicate if the penalty should be applied

The gauges were designed by the former rating secretary, Ron Matthews and manufactured by a Lymington engineering firm (may even have been Wellworthys). Later, the radius of curvature penalty was applied to the aft girth stations when that become the next point of exploitation.

However, it is possible that the first year was 'acquire data' and the penalty was implemented some time later, and existing "hull dates" would be grand-fathered. My old memory is not that precise. 

Edited by spennig
more info
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Maxx Baqustae

Maxx Baqustae 323

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

I would call those creases rather than bumps.  Surfing may have been part of the equation - but mainly it was about increasing Forward Depth Immersed (FDI), which IIRC was the hull depth at 1/8 B from centreline.  Niels Jeppesen used the same thing in his 3/4 Tons - and probably in other of his Ton class designs as well.

I think the radius limits must have come in well after 1980, because Jeppesen did the same if not more extreme crease in boats like the X-102 (below) and almost identical hulled (if not identical) X-3/4 Ton below winning 8 of the 9 3/4 Ton Worlds from '81 through '89.  The lone exception being '83.

5713054L.jpg

If I remember correctly Niels developed the X-102 "before" the X-3/4 ton. 

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12 metre

12 metre 656

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, spennig said:

The bump radius penalty was introduced in 1980, the history is:

  • At the 1979 AC in Cowes, when Blizzard was on the hard it was noticed there were "chines" running a couple of metres either side of the CMD, MD and OMD measure points. These were quite blatant hard chines, solely for measurement purposes.
  • In November 1979 the ORC introduced the radius of curvature measurement and penalty.
  • The RORC Rating Office was tasked with designing, getting manufactured and distributing the bump gauge to other national authorities.
  • I joined the staff of the RORC Rating Office at this time; my second job was to generate tables the measurer used to relate the gauge reading to the measured 'B' and indicate if the penalty should be applied

The gauges were designed by the former rating secretary, Ron Matthews and manufactured by a Lymington engineering firm (may even have been Wellworthys). Later, the radius of curvature penalty was applied to the aft girth stations when that become the next point of exploitation.

I recall the radius of curvature penalty, but I'll admit my mind is a bit hazy on the timing and details.

However, it seems to me that while it may have penalized hard chines, it didn't stop the soft chines (like on the X-102 and the follow on X-3/4 Ton), the intent of which was the same.

And yes, guys like Jeppesen were also using soft chines in the stern and even some hard ones like Dobroth.  Although the intent of hose "chines" was entirely different than ones related to FDI and the various Midship Depth measurements.

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SloopJonB

SloopJonB 12,565

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Maxx Baqustae said:

Nobody was trying to cheat as per but the designers and owners would take the rule to the max. 

"If the rules don't say I can't do it, I have to assume I can".

Smokey Yunick.

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bridhb

bridhb 911

Posted
Posted
46 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

"If the rules don't say I can't do it, I have to assume I can".

Smokey Yunick.

WERA motorcycle racing had a completely different take on that.  It says in the rule book if the rules don't say you can do it, you can't do it.  Lots of bikes got disqualified when lightweight Li batteries came out...until they chandged the rules.

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SloopJonB

SloopJonB 12,565

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, bridhb said:

WERA motorcycle racing had a completely different take on that.  It says in the rule book if the rules don't say you can do it, you can't do it.  Lots of bikes got disqualified when lightweight Li batteries came out...until they chandged the rules.

Sounds like they have some West Van municipal bureaucrats on their rules committee.

Years ago a resident inquired about keeping chickens or some such thing.

Their reply?

"In West Vancouver everything is prohibited that isn't allowed". :lol:

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LordBooster

LordBooster 250

Posted
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Posted
5 hours ago, Maxx Baqustae said:

They ended up 5th IRC.

Even better: 4th

Hagar, US 49696
à jour au: 2021
1977 Plan Ron Holland, built in the PNW, planked with Western Red Cedar, West System web frame construction.

 

1978 TQTC: 1 - 2 - 4 - 12 - 4 = 4e/18, Duncan/Goldberg

See: http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Trois Quart/Hagar.htm

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zenmasterfred

zenmasterfred 565

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Maxx Baqustae said:

Good to know. I remember her arriving at the 3/4 ton world's. A fabulous boat for certain and considered plain compared to some of the designs on the day. Buchan's Chance design. The first Pendragon and way out there "Riotous Assembly"! But they didn't make it to compete. Hagar did pretty well considering the competition. They ended up 5th IRC. (my shot btw as I was there)

   

003_7.jpg

Actually 4th, would have been 3rd except we had brain failure at the finish line in a race and were intimidated by Bill Buchan when we were on Stbd. tack, jibed away and he slid by to pass us.  So it goes on the learning curve.  I still kick myself for that and our 12th race finsh.

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sledracr

sledracr 907

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, 12 metre said:

I recall the radius of curvature penalty, but I'll admit my mind is a bit hazy on the timing and details.

I don't remember the timing, either (hey, it was the 70s....)

But, it looks like the min-radius (at least for AGS) was still in the 1985 version of the rule

 

2040359078_IORradiusatgirth.thumb.JPG.028a56d2fd1b5365f58844992baa6f63.JPG

 

 

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MKF

MKF 10

Posted
Posted

What ever happened to Riotous Assembly

Still refurbishing the old Farr 1 tonner Smirnof Agen here.... should have it in the water next season.  What was amazing is that all the plywood has rotted away, but the Kawri wood was as robust as new, amazing wood.

MKF

 

 

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12 metre

12 metre 656

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, MKF said:

What ever happened to Riotous Assembly

Got turned into what I assume was an insurance claim about 40 years ago when her deck "caught fire"

I saw her maybe 35 years ago planted in the front yard of an acreage property in the Cowichan Valley.

What looked like a J/24 keel (or similarly undersized keel) had been somehow affixed to her belly and a plywood box cabin plunked onto what was probably a plywood deck.  Just saw her as I was driving by so didn't get too many other details.

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Pertsa

Pertsa 269

Posted
Posted
On 11/7/2021 at 12:02 AM, bridhb said:

WERA motorcycle racing had a completely different take on that.  It says in the rule book if the rules don't say you can do it, you can't do it.  Lots of bikes got disqualified when lightweight Li batteries came out...until they chandged the rules.

Most boring way to look rules ever. Kills all creativity.

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bridhb

bridhb 911

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Pertsa said:

Most boring way to look rules ever. Kills all creativity.

There are superbike and clubman classes that are very open and allow creativity and the spending of lots of money.  The restrictive rules were in what could be considered the "one design" (super stock) class but allowed similar bikes from different manufacturers to race together in light, middle and heavyweight catagories and was intended to control cost.  The organization made changes to the rules as the technology changed.

You could "race up" classes and very often a good rider on a superstock bike would take wins in the superbike class.

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SloopJonB

SloopJonB 12,565

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, LordBooster said:

Perhaps IOR sailing next time for Greta Thunberg? Better rescue some IOR yachts, than building new yachts? Good for the climate? Kan vara en bild av 5 personer, personer sysslar med båtracing och utomhus

Does that brat ever smile?

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SloopJonB

SloopJonB 12,565

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, LordBooster said:

Just imagine what she can do by helping us saving IOR yachts, instead of building new yachts.

I don't need any help with that - I'm on my second.

 

Picture 093.jpg

july 21-5.JPG

And I'm on my fifth old boat.

I've never even considered buying a new boat, or car or...

I'm a big believer in the old line that the only things I need new are food and underwear.

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Oceanconcepts

Oceanconcepts 200

Posted
Posted
On 11/7/2021 at 2:45 AM, MKF said:

What ever happened to Riotous Assembly

Still refurbishing the old Farr 1 tonner Smirnof Agen here.... should have it in the water next season.  What was amazing is that all the plywood has rotted away, but the Kawri wood was as robust as new, amazing wood.

MKF

 

 

Same experience here with Pathfinder. Found some minor areas of rot in the plywood cabin sides and cockpit, but after 50 years the kauri hull, framing, and structure are as solid as they were on launch day. 

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SloopJonB

SloopJonB 12,565

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, floater said:

that mast is so far forward it looks freakish.. 

Camera angle - it's a pretty conventional (read radical noodle) early 80's IOR frac rig.

Here's a better view.

 

19.jpg

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LordBooster

LordBooster 250

Posted
  • Author
Posted
2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

And I'm on my fifth old boat.

I've never even considered buying a new boat, or car or...

I'm a big believer in the old line that the only things I need new are food and underwear.

Good thinking. Good for the climate, instead of building new yachts in exotic materials. Just imagine the energy needed for creating: https://www.compositesworld.com/articles/the-making-of-carbon-fiber

 

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bridhb

bridhb 911

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I don't need any help with that - I'm on my second.

 

Picture 093.jpg

 

And I'm on my fifth old boat.

I've never even considered buying a new boat, or car or...

I'm a big believer in the old line that the only things I need new are food and underwear.

What is going on with "Fred Again's" cockpit?  It looks interesting?

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SloopJonB

SloopJonB 12,565

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, bridhb said:

What is going on with "Fred Again's" cockpit?  It looks interesting?

It was a good layout - small footwell for the helmsman and a thigh deep well for the grinders, divided by the traveller.

 

 

deck.jpg

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