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13 hours ago, floater said:

I've never had the pleasure of a round-down. but I think that's what it looks like.

You haven't lived!

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I just found this thread while doing a Google search on my new boat, but I bought the Peterson designed Serendipity 43 that someone linked to back in February. Bit of a distress sale, so I think I got

It was an odd time the late IOR period. Fantastic fleets, great racing and many beautiful looking boats that were absolute cunts of things to sail. Back them most  owners actually knew how to sail and

Having renovated an IOR 1-tonner, I feel obliged to point out that there are way cheaper ways to get a tidy boat on to a start line

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histoiredeshalfs: "Port Pendennis (2), K 518" "1991 Plan Dubois, built by Vision Yachts" "2018 From Vincent, half models seen in Royal Thames Yacht Club" "Quite an aggressive rudder and good experience to work with Ed Dubois and his team, Vision and the all star crew", 3rd at OTC -91

No photo description available.

http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/One Tonner/Port Pedenis 2.htm

 

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20 hours ago, floater said:

good stuff, and they don't make them like that anymore. "The second race, the long offshore, took the fleet under the Golden Gate Bridge and out into light and shifty coastal waters, and on a large ocean triangle course of around 150 miles (with the Farallon islands acting as a wing mark).."

 

 

 

Nope - not a lot of distance racing at world championships anymore. There was the 200 mile distance race at the 2006 TP52 worlds from Miami, to Bahamas to Lauderdale and back,  but really it was a 15 hour overnighter which shows how fast the new boats are vs. how long that race took in the 1987 SORC even for the 50s of that generation.  

I only really posted this because we are seeing more and more of those famous Farr one tonners (top 7 of 25 at that event) looking like this...

Credit to Sleddog from a few pages back.

Screenshot 2022-01-12 081032.png

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I to think that while we all love to see these old boats restored, we do have have to admit, they were quite terrible to sail at times....

QT01.png

QT02.png

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15 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Chopped for a better MORC rating?

- DSK

Sort of looks like Perfect Stranger the Pinnacle 29 when you put it like that .... 

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2 hours ago, XPRO said:

I to think that while we all love to see these old boats restored, we do have have to admit, they were quite terrible to sail at times....

QT02.png

I'm still trying to come to grips with the concept of a boat won't necessarily trip over its own feet when pressed.

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8 hours ago, LeCanard said:

We always called  it a ”Chinese gybe”

That's an "Asian gybe" you racist fucker.

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Yeah, it is.

And it's usually the first in a sequence of even worse ideas to follow

- DSK

Well , it is certainly no missed runner...... Last saw Container in Palma many years ago.  One of my favs.

FYI - it was really windy that day in Japan.

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Container_2021 Mallorca.jpg

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On 1/11/2022 at 12:59 PM, floater said:

I've never had the pleasure of a round-down. but I think that's what it looks like.

You've missed out on one of life's greatest experiences!  Of course you only say that about the ones where everyone came out the far end with all their fingers and toes in placeB)

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16 hours ago, XPRO said:

Well , it is certainly no missed runner...... Last saw Container in Palma many years ago.  One of my favs.

FYI - it was really windy that day in Japan.

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Container_2021 Mallorca.jpg

did anyone just say: "not today satan"? I mean, the main doesn't even look like it has a reef. And I suppose the chute may be 1/2 oz. but it looks like it could be 3/4 oz. lol. 

it's just all or nothing. even though the boat cannot physically go any faster through the water - without going under it - we brought it. that's what we're here for. let's put it up. lol.

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59 minutes ago, floater said:

did anyone just say: "not today satan"? I mean, the main doesn't even look like it has a reef. And I suppose the chute may be 1/2 oz. but it looks like it could be 3/4 oz. lol. 

it's just all or nothing. even though the boat cannot physically go any faster through the water - without going under it - we brought it. that's what we're here for. let's put it up. lol.

That sort of shit is a big part of why IOR boats got their rep for crashing & burning.

Any sort of chute is simply stupid in conditions like that - would be a lot faster to reduce sail and go straight - with a mast standing.

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On 1/12/2022 at 7:16 AM, XPRO said:

Nope - not a lot of distance racing at world championships anymore. There was the 200 mile distance race at the 2006 TP52 worlds from Miami, to Bahamas to Lauderdale and back,  but really it was a 15 hour overnighter which shows how fast the new boats are vs. how long that race took in the 1987 SORC even for the 50s of that generation.  

I only really posted this because we are seeing more and more of those famous Farr one tonners (top 7 of 25 at that event) looking like this...

Credit to Sleddog from a few pages back.

Screenshot 2022-01-12 081032.png

I might add that stern looks a mite bit blocky.  Also, a bit of overhang might help to keep the backwash from sloshing in.  But it sure looks like it saves weight.  

Seriously, I wish there was a better way to resolve the old/unwanted boat issue rather than filling up landfill’s with their faded exoskeletons.  

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

That sort of shit is a big part of why IOR boats got their rep for crashing & burning.

Any sort of chute is simply stupid in conditions like that - would be a lot faster to reduce sail and go straight - with a mast standing.

That would not have been a winning strategy in upper level IOR racing.

It looks to me like they got caught up in the photo boat's wake train.

 

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to be fair, the IOR reputation not really relevant for those boats lucky enough to get a second wind as a cruiser. white sails have reefs - and chutes only go up in benign weather.

some unexpected bump could be true, but it looks bumpy all over. and I guess it's blowing at least 35. 

just look at those spreaders - four of them all lined up, even though the whole fucking thing coming down. rigger must have shed a tear, or two. one of the most remarkable shots I have ever seen. 4.jpg

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Looks like the boom took the rig out when it hit the runner on the way across.  They were in mid-gybe in the first couple of shots.  Forgot to secure the vang before the gybe?

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These are big boys playing with big toys at the top of the sport - to not fly a spi would be failure. Note that the hull is level through out the maneuver - this was a crew/equipment failure, not boat control issues

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6 hours ago, Rain Man said:

Looks like the boom took the rig out when it hit the runner on the way across.  They were in mid-gybe in the first couple of shots.  Forgot to secure the vang before the gybe?

Not sure about that.  Broke right at the inboard end of the pole...maybe stuffed the pole right as the boom hit the runner?

 

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Just now, Crash said:

Not sure about that.  Broke right at the inboard end of the pole...maybe stuffed the pole right as the boom hit the runner?

 

...or stuffed they pole right as the guy on windward the runner eased it, and the guy on the leeward runner didn't get his on in time?

 

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8 hours ago, Crash said:

...or stuffed they pole right as the guy on windward the runner eased it, and the guy on the leeward runner didn't get his on in time?

 

I dunno.... as Longy points out, there's not a lot of rock'n and rollin' going on, so how to stuff a pole? In the middle shot main looks like it is unloading a bit as they surf, this would be the time to bring the boom over. Did they end up in a trough when it finally came over and loaded up, maybe a gust, vang on too much and pushes it out of column at the gooseneck?

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21 hours ago, floater said:

did anyone just say: "not today satan"? I mean, the main doesn't even look like it has a reef. And I suppose the chute may be 1/2 oz. but it looks like it could be 3/4 oz. lol. 

it's just all or nothing. even though the boat cannot physically go any faster through the water - without going under it - we brought it. that's what we're here for. let's put it up. lol.

 

20 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

That sort of shit is a big part of why IOR boats got their rep for crashing & burning.

Any sort of chute is simply stupid in conditions like that - would be a lot faster to reduce sail and go straight - with a mast standing.

 

15 hours ago, floater said:

to be fair, the IOR reputation not really relevant for those boats lucky enough to get a second wind as a cruiser. white sails have reefs - and chutes only go up in benign weather.

some unexpected bump could be true, but it looks bumpy all over. and I guess it's blowing at least 35. 

just look at those spreaders - four of them all lined up, even though the whole fucking thing coming down. rigger must have shed a tear, or two. one of the most remarkable shots I have ever seen. 4.jpg

It was a time when the men were Men and the Masts were scared.

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1 hour ago, JoeO said:

I dunno.... as Longy points out, there's not a lot of rock'n and rollin' going on, so how to stuff a pole? In the middle shot main looks like it is unloading a bit as they surf, this would be the time to bring the boom over. Did they end up in a trough when it finally came over and loaded up, maybe a gust, vang on too much and pushes it out of column at the gooseneck?

three masts went bang that day

all runner misses

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36 minutes ago, LordBooster said:

Carbon fiber mast and swept spreaders better/safer?

 

in those conditions, it wouldn't have mattered

big waves, huge breeze, and having to dodge other boats (and steel fishing cables) meant gybing more than you wanted.  shit happens

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1 hour ago, hermetic said:

in those conditions, it wouldn't have mattered

big waves, huge breeze, and having to dodge other boats (and steel fishing cables) meant gybing more than you wanted.  shit happens

Maybe, I mean if you don't need the runners. Perhaps less issues?

 

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21 minutes ago, LordBooster said:

Maybe, I mean if you don't need the runners. Perhaps less issues?

 

certainly swept spreaders and no runners will eliminate issues

but that wasn't the design for the 50's - you wanted the boom out and the pole back

when it was windy we would put two guys on the mainsheet to center it on gybes in case the runner didn't get on (or off) quick enough.  there was no way to do this that day in Japan

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Found another sad sack. Priced about $4500 to high. If my bank account was dripping money it would be a fun resto. "mull 3/4 Tonner designed for the world championships in Victoria b.c. a tsawwassen gentleman raced and cruised her thru the 80,s out of Tsawwassen yacht club and Point roberts yacht club.they won and come in 2nd in some world championships,the boat was fast in it,s day.it raced up to 50 races per year. Needs cleaning I might get time to do it "

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/rds/boa/d/delta-sailboat-racer/7416412523.html 

Screenshot_20220116-085318.png

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On 1/13/2022 at 5:45 PM, SloopJonB said:

It's not alone. That's what the Euros are spending to update QT's for top level racing.

Not on a Bolero. Strangely enough that boat has been for sale for a while now. :D

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On 1/18/2022 at 2:12 AM, LordBooster said:

Great little boats in their day, the Defiances were very IOR competitive and excellent offshore. Tom Stephenson won an Aus Half Ton championship in a Defiance called Providence before putting together a successful challenge for the 74 Half Ton Cup in the Peterson 30 Foxy Lady.

Defiance 30s were built with different deck options; Clementine 11 seen above had the "racing" deck, Scallywag below had the more cruisy wedge-shaped deck.  I just sold Scallywag  to an enthusiastic young bloke as his very first keel boat. She has some impressive blue-water pedigree too, having finished Third OVERALL on IOR in the 1981 Sydney to Hobart, no mean feat in a thirty foot yacht.

1020601598_Ext(3).thumb.jpg.6a611273c8f3407fb4bccf0828ff4bb2.jpg

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9 hours ago, SPORTSCAR said:

Great little boats in their day, the Defiances were very IOR competitive and excellent offshore. Tom Stephenson won an Aus Half Ton championship in a Defiance called Providence before putting together a successful challenge for the 74 Half Ton Cup in the Peterson 30 Foxy Lady.

Very impressive in rented yacht!

http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/1975 HTC.htm

 

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Thankfully those dumb transverse track systems were a short lived fad.

There was an even worse one that looked like a barbecue grill that was even shorter lived.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Thankfully those dumb transverse track systems were a short lived fad.

who's gonna tell him?

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Thankfully those dumb transverse track systems were a short lived fad.

 

Why the hate for a very adjustable, simple system? The only downfall is that there are no numbers, the trimmer had to know what shape was needed for speed. Trying to float the clew between the two tracks was always a nightmare, double sheets, every adjustment meant playing with both.

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On 1/20/2022 at 3:02 PM, SloopJonB said:

Defiance looks to be the same as the Hughes North Star 1000.

Northstar 1000 has it base design as S&S design no 2098 as does the Defiance.

There is difference in beam with the Northstar been narrower by 100mm.

The original Defiance is slightly different to the production one shown above in terms of rocker.

 

7D371311-77DF-4BFD-B2D2-0F10551DF634.jpeg

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6 hours ago, Livia said:

Northstar 1000 has it base design as S&S design no 2098 as does the Defiance.

There is difference in beam with the Northstar been narrower by 100mm.

The original Defiance is slightly different to the production one shown above in terms of rocker.

 

7D371311-77DF-4BFD-B2D2-0F10551DF634.jpeg

Will be in town tis week Livia.  Is boat moored in te Derwent or nearby? Would love a look over for old times sakes

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1 hour ago, DickDastardly said:

Will be in town tis week Livia.  Is boat moored in te Derwent or nearby? Would love a look over for old times sakes

will message you DD

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1 hour ago, dave-j said:

Transverse tracks are the best if you have a good trimmer.  Almost infinite sail shape control.

Or floating leads, without tracks.  A "Down" adjustment, and an "Out" one.  All you need.

And for overlapping headsails it's a good idea to get the sailmaker to make all the sails to just two LP angles.  Light and heavy #1 and #2 on the aft tackle, all the small jibs on the forward one.

With no overlapping jibs, then just one tackle.  And a block on the rail.

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1 hour ago, P_Wop said:

Or floating leads, without tracks.  A "Down" adjustment, and an "Out" one.  All you need.

And for overlapping headsails it's a good idea to get the sailmaker to make all the sails to just two LP angles.  Light and heavy #1 and #2 on the aft tackle, all the small jibs on the forward one.

With no overlapping jibs, then just one tackle.  And a block on the rail.

With no overlap, just use the lazy sheet, no barber hauler needed. My jib leads to the rail, but using the lazy sheet, I can bring the clew in to the mast, or anywhere between.

Takes a high clew of course. My jib clew is the height of the boom, so the leech of the jib helps the main (slot) as much as a deck sweeper, but without any end plate effect. End plate effect is real, but end plate effect only works at all if there is ZERO gap between jib and deck. One inch eliminates the advantage, and in fact causes a very large vortex, which means energy, which means drag. A higher clew greatly reduces the vortex, so is probably faster than a just barely above the deck sail. And, again, then nothing but the windward sheet is required for any inboard sheeting angle.

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On 1/13/2022 at 12:18 AM, XPRO said:

Keeping on topic...... Davison looking worse for wear.

D1.png

D2.png

A sad end for her. See my avatar for a shot of her crossing the Shingles Bank at the start of the '91 Fastnet.

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1 hour ago, LordBooster said:

OMG, didn't see that. Are you sure?

 

My bad.  The Google Earth photo in your link made it look like the cockpit had been cut out.

Didn't notice the other better photos until now.  She looks perhaps to be in a bit better shape than the bow on photo indicates...

...but still would have to remove that gawdawful semi-finished home built FRP dodger they have adorned her with. 

And the EUR 13K asking price is much too much.

Canterbury 2.jpg

Canterbury.jpg

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G.O. Obst at FB: " Interstellar, sitting in winter storage in Greifswald, Germany. To me she looks like a Judel / Vrolijk One Ton from the early eighties.

This might not be her original keel. Also note the full beam traveller track on deck level, not on the cockpit floor.
What are your suggestions? Does anybody recognize the boat?"
272288359_1120795735340853_2566679276319468439_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=QTrtvdIee6oAX_WJo11&tn=J-QuBF1P-9usc1YN&_nc_ht=scontent-arn2-1.xx&oh=00_AT_InPmGoucuX6-GjrwZGDNMpDxPE6yEFKEwJ9n8o3z3jQ&oe=61F4E52B
 
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The keel and rudder certainly don't look like the same vintage, I'm guessing keel is original and rudder has been replaced.

If the open transom is original I'd guess she's 1985-86 maybe?

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

That is one ridiculous looking keel. It looks like some sort of flipper

That's one of the "Mickey Mouse Ear" keels that were all the rage c.1985 and Jade the one ton World Champ led the charge. Eliptical profile for drag reduction to the point of trying to reduce both the keel root and keel foot from producing energy sapping vortices to the minimum that structural calcs would permit. The leading edge to stop an otherwise disc profile from hooking all and sundry........ Et voila!

Actually some sound hydrodynamic principles at play - but you were playing in the realm of a rule that actively rewarded (relatively) low stability.

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7 hours ago, Boink said:

That's one of the "Mickey Mouse Ear" keels that were all the rage c.1985 and Jade the one ton World Champ led the charge. Eliptical profile for drag reduction to the point of trying to reduce both the keel root and keel foot from producing energy sapping vortices to the minimum that structural calcs would permit. The leading edge to stop an otherwise disc profile from hooking all and sundry........ Et voila!

Actually some sound hydrodynamic principles at play - but you were playing in the realm of a rule that actively rewarded (relatively) low stability.

Judel/Vrolijk, Joubert/Nivelt, Humphries, Castro... lots of design houses doing the elliptical keel thing... originally with straight leading edges, then the whale flipper planform... the idea (somewhat mistaken) was to have an elliptical lift distribution from top to bottom, and this was thought best accomplished by an elliptical profile. See, e.g., Spitfire wing...

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On 1/25/2022 at 12:06 AM, P_Wop said:

Or floating leads, without tracks.  A "Down" adjustment, and an "Out" one.  All you need.

Are you referring to the Down-fucker, Out-fucker, in-fucker & up-fucker ?

Asking for a friend :lol:

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7 minutes ago, Laser1 said:

Are you referring to the Down-fucker, Out-fucker, in-fucker & up-fucker ?

Asking for a friend :lol:

Just Down and Out.  Fuckers both.

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I love my out fucker for reaching legs on my Hanse.  Its like having a 6th gear.

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King One, First Evolution, designed by Jean Berret in -80, winner of HTC -81, pic from "L'Année Bateaux 1981-1982": Crew, from left to right: Eric Ingouf, Nic Johansen, Jerome Langlois and Jean-yves Furic. Paul Elvström at the helm. Jean-yves Furic has correct me on the crew from left to right and the spelling

May be an image of 4 people, people boat racing, sailboat and outdoors

http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/BE7.htm

http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/1981 HTC.htm

https://www.facebook.com/groups/203537404677541/posts/461567275541218/

 

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On 1/25/2022 at 9:38 PM, 12 metre said:

...but still would have to remove that gawdawful semi-finished home built FRP dodger they have adorned her with. 

Perhaps just something temporary for the winter?

 

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