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7 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

I contacted the seller, I never heard about the designer J. Gutierrez nor the builder, Luis Morales. I can send you the ORC club certificate by PM if you want.

Thanks, yes I am confused over her big displacement. Perhaps the correct one is in the certificate?

 

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It was an odd time the late IOR period. Fantastic fleets, great racing and many beautiful looking boats that were absolute cunts of things to sail. Back them most  owners actually knew how to sail and

Having renovated an IOR 1-tonner, I feel obliged to point out that there are way cheaper ways to get a tidy boat on to a start line

Big Wheels,  yep.  I sailed an 80 foot Maxi that had a pump on the wheel well because it went below the waterline! Lots of winches,  why no cleats or jammers,  none had been developed capable of

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32' Islander 32 MKII

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/75726

"Oh... I think that's the mark II then... It must have been one of the first of them. Assuming it's a mark II (a modernish looking design with a fin keel and IOR style bow) then they are nice boats with a reputation for being good sailors particularly upwind. They were never really a racing boat, but they show some IOR influence -- a little bustle, a vestigial skeg, and the IOR water plane. They're very similar in build quality to the CALs and Erikson's of the time.", see https://forums.sailboatowners.com/threads/islander-32.107820/

1977 Islander 32 MKII located in Maine for sale

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On 2/12/2021 at 1:44 AM, cje said:

 "Damn Near" came with lots of stuff. Gear, sails and stuff. I used everything I could to keep her original. Hung onto things to keep her history.

I have the vessels owner logs of those particular years. (80-85 ish)  It reads like Cook or Vancouver when they selected crew. Things like "very capable foredeck. "Has the weakness with the spirit"

If anyone has a story about her I'd really like to hear it. 

If you are asking about Damn Near from the Bay Area, there was series of like named boats owned by Bert Damner from the San Francisco YC. There are a lot of people on this site who could help fill in the blanks. Just need more specifics on the boat in question. I.e. length, year, rig/sail plan  etc. 

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1 hour ago, LordBooster said:

If I ever reach the point where I am just a vagabond single-handing everywhere this is what I would get.  Solid little boats.  

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I nearly bought one of those last time but decided it was a bit small and much too nice - I needed more of a project.

I actually prefer the 25 II from a purely esthetic POV.

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7 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I nearly bought one of those last time but decided it was a bit small and much too nice - I needed more of a project.

I actually prefer the 25 II from a purely esthetic POV.

i've got a 25-II; whats the difference to the 26 besides the fractional rig & sugar scoop? I've never managed to actually see a 26 in person and got the impression they were just a rig change.

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26 has: Fractional rig, wider /extended transom/no skeg on the rudder/engine moved aft under companionway/2ft longer lwl/almost 600lbs heavier yet less sail area/beamier/less draft...

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Looks very similar to the San Juan 24, a Bruce Kirby 1/4 Tonner... fuller stern, a little

FB- Doug

Spittin' image of a San Juan 28:

Image result for San Juan 28

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That’s what made the J-24 so successful.  It was as fast/faster than most 1/2 toners (30 ft) and could bury most 1/4 toners boat for boat.  

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1 hour ago, Crash said:

That’s what made the J-24 so successful.  It was as fast/faster than most 1/2 toners (30 ft) and could bury most 1/4 toners boat for boat.  

I would have hoped so - since the J/24 rated in at the Half Ton level.  Which actually says that IOR worked pretty well.  Putting aside the LOA argument.  But if you want to go that route - a M24 will bury a J/24 several times over.

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25 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

I would have hoped so - since the J/24 rated in at the Half Ton level.  Which actually says that IOR worked pretty well.  Putting aside the LOA argument.  But if you want to go that route - a M24 will bury a J/24 several times over.

Oh totally!  Wasn't trying to imply the IOR rule, IOR boats in general, or quarter tonners in particular aren't great boats. I should have been more clear.  In fact have owned both a J-24 and a Bene First 30E (production IOR half tonner) and loved both boats ...J-24 maybe cause I was young and mostly I got to drive :rolleyes:.  

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Comparing those Yamahas and a J-24 is absurd - the only thing they have in common is they are sailboats and have a similar LOA. Might as well compare them to a Star.

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6 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Comparing those Yamahas and a J-24 is absurd - the only thing they have in common is they are sailboats and have a similar LOA. Might as well compare them to a Star.

Its not apples to oranges, I'll grant you that.  But it does explain why, during the late 70s, that the J-24 became so popular so quickly.  Not to mention, at least here in the states, there wasn't as much 1/4 tonner or 1/2 tonner racing as there was internationally...

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52 minutes ago, Crash said:

Its not apples to oranges, I'll grant you that.  But it does explain why, during the late 70s, that the J-24 became so popular so quickly.  Not to mention, at least here in the states, there wasn't as much 1/4 tonner or 1/2 tonner racing as there was internationally...

Yes, agree with that 100%

Small boat IOR never really made much inroads in NA - other than a few events like the '76 QT Worlds and perhaps the '78 3/4T Worlds in Victoria.  That is if you consider 3/4T to be small boat.  Probably had a lot to do with the budgets and measurement costs of small boat programs on a local level.  But in Europe small boat IOR was pretty big as you mention.

But 1T and up - it was the place to be in NA at the time.

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Earlier than IOR, but still: Charcon 36 designed by Bramstoft& Wasserman, and inspired by the Swan 37

http://maxusdanmark.dk/baad/bade-til-salg/charcon-36/

This fantastic unique Chacon 36 of the rareGoogle translate: "sold to the customer. Made in Denmark.
NOTE EXTRA REDUCED. Due to a fault in the engine cooling, the price has been greatly reduced and here is the opportunity to acquire a really cheap 36 foot boat, which can be expected to be repaired on the engine. The engine sounds and runs as usual, but the owner does not want to invest more in the boat and therefore sells it at a spot price.

We previously had this boat for sale and sold it to a family in Ishøj. They have spent the spring beautifying the boat and some technical challenges with decks, as well as sailing in it over the summer. But the family has, despite great joy over the boat, decided on a holiday home and therefore chooses to put this beautiful ship up for sale again. The boat still needs the last or if you want the big trip. The gain is entirely on the side of the new owner. No matter what you do with this boat, it will always be unique. Its sailing characteristics are an exquisite pleasure, even in high seas. Incredibly strong at sea and is a solid giant who keeps the course.

It was designed by Bramstoft and Wasserman and built by Ole Bøtker on Krimsvej on Amager. Is very inspired by Swan 37 from the same vintage. Original drawings from the drawing room included. Built solid in fiberglass with strong reinforcements, and strong rich for earth navigation. In fact, we do not know if it was around the world. It must be a guess.

If you are interested in a large boat with options, at a really good price, please contact us for a demonstration.
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On 2/16/2021 at 9:13 AM, Crash said:

But it does explain why, during the late 70s, that the J-24 became so popular so quickly.  

Yeah.  The best thing about IOR was that it let the owners (and designers and builders) play with things.  you could have a 27-foot half-tonner or a 30-foot half-tonner, as long as they rated in they raced "level" and it was an interesting experiment. it led to explorations of obscure corners of performance vs. rating, which led to boats that were awkward to sail well, uncomfortable and ... whatever.  On any given day, any given design could be inherently better than another, which led to lots of "if only" discussions at the bar.

The worst thing about IOR was that it let the owners (and designers and builders) play with things.  you could have a 27-foot half-tonner or a 30-foot half-tonner, as long as they rated in they raced "level" and it was an interesting experiment. it led to explorations of obscure corners of performance vs. rating, which led to boats that were awkward to sail well, uncomfortable and ... whatever.  On any given day, any given design could be inherently better than another, which led to lots of "if only" discussions at the bar.

One design was a lot more attractive if all you wanted to do was sail and see how you did.  All the variables were removed except "you".  Bonus points if you could sail the boat without sitting on weird-shaped coach-roofs and contorted into rule-bending trimmer pits.

 

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18 minutes ago, sledracr said:

Yeah.  The best thing about IOR was that it let the owners (and designers and builders) play with things.  you could have a 27-foot half-tonner or a 30-foot half-tonner, as long as they rated in they raced "level" and it was an interesting experiment. it led to explorations of obscure corners of performance vs. rating, which led to boats that were awkward to sail well, uncomfortable and ... whatever.  On any given day, any given design could be inherently better than another, which led to lots of "if only" discussions at the bar.

The worst thing about IOR was that it let the owners (and designers and builders) play with things.  you could have a 27-foot half-tonner or a 30-foot half-tonner, as long as they rated in they raced "level" and it was an interesting experiment. it led to explorations of obscure corners of performance vs. rating, which led to boats that were awkward to sail well, uncomfortable and ... whatever.  On any given day, any given design could be inherently better than another, which led to lots of "if only" discussions at the bar.

One design was a lot more attractive if all you wanted to do was sail and see how you did.  All the variables were removed except "you".  Bonus points if you could sail the boat without sitting on weird-shaped coach-roofs and contorted into rule-bending trimmer pits.

 

Or...a 34 ft Half Ton (Tumblehome 2) http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/E82 Tumb.htm

Okay, there was also Cascade but she was a One Trick Pony and not a true Half Ton.  That is, she did well in point to point racing like SORC due to her size, but she would have gotten smoked in anything resembling RTC.

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

Yeah.  The best thing about IOR was that it let the owners (and designers and builders) play with things.  you could have a 27-foot half-tonner or a 30-foot half-tonner, as long as they rated in they raced "level" and it was an interesting experiment. it led to explorations of obscure corners of performance vs. rating, which led to boats that were awkward to sail well, uncomfortable and ... whatever.  On any given day, any given design could be inherently better than another, which led to lots of "if only" discussions at the bar.

The worst thing about IOR was that it let the owners (and designers and builders) play with things.  you could have a 27-foot half-tonner or a 30-foot half-tonner, as long as they rated in they raced "level" and it was an interesting experiment. it led to explorations of obscure corners of performance vs. rating, which led to boats that were awkward to sail well, uncomfortable and ... whatever.  On any given day, any given design could be inherently better than another, which led to lots of "if only" discussions at the bar.

One design was a lot more attractive if all you wanted to do was sail and see how you did.  All the variables were removed except "you".  Bonus points if you could sail the boat without sitting on weird-shaped coach-roofs and contorted into rule-bending trimmer pits.

 

That's pretty much correct except the yacht designers (and to some degree the owners) were smarter than rules people. A designer made a living out of making it into a better mousetrap. Some rules makers were volunteers too. It seems to me that there was a lot of bandage solutions at that time. With our custom one-off build they seemed to change the rules day by day. We were going to put a carbon layer on our mast (yes, it probably wouldn't have worked well anyway - but?) and it was not allowed at the end of the day and we had to plug weld the spar to make it work. It didn't work well at all. There were daggerboard/centerboard boats etc that took advantage of the rule. Same  thing with internal lead in the bilges etc to make it rate with less drag in the keel. It went on and on as how to trick the rule.

     

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Martin Bjørn Christensen: "Where are the IOR boats from the 80s?"

https://motorbaadsnyt.dk/nyhed/archive/2017/14/march/article/hvor-er-ior-baadene-fra-80erne/

 

Google translate: “Where are the IOR boats from the 80s?
Banner 34 sailor Martin Bjørn Christensen from Jyllinge is ready for the Palby Fyn Cup: - But where are all the beautiful, spacious and still relatively fast IOR boats on the racing tracks?
By Troels Lykke | 14-03-2017 16:20
I am a happy owner of a Banner 34 (DEN 39, Dagmar), which I have had for almost 6 years, says the active Martin Bjørn Christensen in a call to minbaad.dk readers.
He continues:
I chose to buy a Banner 34, as I think it has some incredibly beautiful lines that end with a really nice and naughty hedge, which releases the water nicely. The boat type also has a characteristic buckling bow, which is the finishing touch.
The boat is located in Jyllinge Marina, from where we participate in the Tuesday evening races and in as many races as possible to reach in the Isefjord district.
Active in several races
It will be Sjælland Rundt on the Inner Side SRPI - super fun and cozy sailing, Sydfjords event (Herslev), Jyllinge Open, Hesselø Rundt (Hundested) and Afrigger event (Roskilde). And then we go to the Palby Fyn Cup, where we are already registered for May. This will be our 5th time. Think it's fun to participate in a sailing with 300 starters.
Is lucky now to have a super (stable) guest team. We are now 4 permanent on board. Have of course had the challenge of finding a crew who think that the skipper's whims are 'fun'.
It is not an easy exercise to get a guest team stacked on its legs. The guests at Dagmar occasionally take a guest association meeting if the skipper gets too crazy, which the skipper of course gets minutes from (by participating himself).
Boat type based on IOR hull
The boat type Banner 34 is based on an IOR hull from the early / mid 80s. It was a time when a lot was happening in Danish sailing.
Sjælland Rundt topped with approx. 2000 participants and Fyn Rundt with over 1000 participants - the activity in the width was generally high on the racing front in Denmark.
Even for the evening sailings, there were 2-3 times as many on the water compared to what many clubs can muster today (there are enough exceptions).
Back then, many of the very fast IOR inspired boats were sold, like the X-102, Dehler 34 and my own Banner 34, all ¾-ton inspired.
In addition, there were also a lot of ½-tonners, among others. X-95. Where are all the beautiful, spacious and still relatively fast boats on the Danish racing tracks?
It would be fun if there would be enough of the mentioned boat types that could be brought together for racing communities where experience and molepral would be a natural part of the community.
The boats are not brand new anymore, so exchange of how the boats are best kept healthy, updated gear and experiences from the tracks and on the trips around the summer harbors.
Distance races such as the Palby Fyn Cup (and classic) where it is possible to gather more, always get a racer forward in me.
One or more larger fields of the same boat category (the IOR) will have the opportunity to test the speed against similar boats must then be possible. So, that's a call; find your Banner 34, X-102, Dehler 34/343 and the like, and let's meet in Bogense.
I am glad that 3 x Banner 34s have already been announced to start in the Palby Fyn Cup 2017, and we are right now one of the biggest fields.
Has started facebook page
Has started a facebook page for Banner 34s so we who like the Banner 34 can virtually keep each other updated. The site is open to more people. I am fully aware that there are faster boats of the same size and that the DH measurement rules do not help the overall result either, but do not think it does that much when there are several relatively comparable boats combined. ‘As you know, straight children play best’.
But having said that, they are still fun and stable boats, of which there are some in the Danish marinas.
Where are you?
Martin Bjørn Christensen
Jyllinge”
 
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On 2/15/2021 at 12:43 AM, Crash said:

26 has: Fractional rig, wider /extended transom/no skeg on the rudder/engine moved aft under companionway/2ft longer lwl/almost 600lbs heavier yet less sail area/beamier/less draft...

thanks! the one brochure on the 26 i've seen made it look like an interior refresh. i'll have to track one down someday and have a look for myself.

On 2/16/2021 at 5:18 AM, dolphinmaster said:

Both appear to be turdfully slower than a J24, :(

like the other folks said, apples to oranges. the yamaha has an inboard, decent storage, a galley, 4 adult-size berths, and a spot for a real head.... and it points pretty well for a 4ksb. all in all the yammie is a great pocket cruiser, perfect for a couple on an extended cruise. the j/24 isn't really suited for that, even if its possible.

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The original Y 25 was a nice little boat, though it needed some breeze and wasn't competitive as a quarter toner in San Diego. I'm sure the inboard Yanmar diesel up in the bow was part of it. I didn't know about the 25II and the 26. I presume they came with a little more sail power?

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20 minutes ago, kinardly said:

The original Y 25 was a nice little boat, though it needed some breeze and wasn't competitive as a quarter toner in San Diego. I'm sure the inboard Yanmar diesel up in the bow was part of it. I didn't know about the 25II and the 26. I presume they came with a little more sail power?

If Sailboatdata is to be believed, the Y26 was heavier with a lot less horsepower than the 25-2.  Disp Y26 = 4343 while Y25-2 is 3745. 

SA/D Y26 = 17.54 on a Frac rig while SA/D Y25-2 = 19.8, which is decent for a MH rig.

For comparison, a SJ 24 has a SA/D of 18.17.

So the Y25-2 has much better numbers for light air sailing than the Y26.

Keep in mind not all boats are designed with Dago or PNW conditions in mind.

So I  think that Magician V kind of lucked out at the '78 QT World in Japan - or they correctly anticipated a heavy air series.  The 3rd place Whiting designed Seaflyer (Seaply) was designed for lighter air and likely would have walked away with the championship had the winds been as they predicted.  As it was, 4 of the 5 races were in heavy air: http://rbsailing.blogspot.com/2015/09/quarter-ton-cup-1978.html

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Restoration of a one-tonner Griffin (orignally Sidewinder designed by Welbourne), work by Martin Kamperhaug

Kan vara en bild av båtracing och utomhus

https://www.seilmagasinet.no/trege-regattabter/288383?fbclid=IwAR0RiEn2H8izWhoG9xAgQ6_N8DONbSIsQdRAjsHm1wGY__qCFcglDFnI8To

Translate of link above: "Martin Kamperhaug has increased the size of the one-ton "Griffin" which he has refurbished.
Slow regatta boats
Fast sailboats are slow in the used market. Martin Kamperhaug wonders if the interest in regatta boats has disappeared completely. Martin Kamperhaug loves fast regatta boats. He has owned both Mini-tonners and several half-tonners. Now he has refurbished an old One-ton and wanted to get rid of his Banner half-ton which he has been sailing actively with for the last two years. He has a good second place overall in the Union Race both in 2009 and this year. - My boat is very expensive (especially the sailing wardrobe) and was first announced for 215,000 kroner, which seemed reasonable considering all the luxury. The response has been poor and the price has now been dumped at NOK 149,000. This should be a bargain for a gang that wants to try their hand at a regatta with a potent boat for cheap money, Kamperhaug tells Seilas.
Next summer, Martin Kamperhaug will perform with his newly restored entones. It was in this class of boat that the King took World Cup gold in 1987 with "Fram X". - I bought the boat early this summer, took it ashore immediately and started working on it. The boat had fallen into disrepair in recent years. The boat has received a total makeover above and below the waterline. Some reinforcements and repair cones have also been made. The rig has also been transferred and a completely new racing wardrobe has been purchased from Elvstrøm. This winter it will also shine more inside and be built partly new furnishings + further reinforcements of, among other things, mast foundation The boat is from 1984 and is narrower in the stern than eg «Fram X» and other newer 1 toners, so it will probably struggle with to hang out with them, says Martin Kamperhaug. In the next Seilas, which is now at the printing house, we will take the pulse of the used boat market."
 
 
 
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24 minutes ago, 12 metre said:

If Sailboatdata is to be believed, the Y26 was heavier with a lot less horsepower than the 25-2.  Disp Y26 = 4343 while Y25-2 is 3745. 

SA/D Y26 = 17.54 on a Frac rig while SA/D Y25-2 = 19.8, which is decent for a MH rig.

For comparison, a SJ 24 has a SA/D of 18.17.

So the Y25-2 has much better numbers for light air sailing than the Y26.

Keep in mind not all boats are designed with Dago or PNW conditions in mind.

So I  think that Magician V kind of lucked out at the '78 QT World in Japan - or they correctly anticipated a heavy air series.  The 3rd place Whiting designed Seaflyer (Seaply) was designed for lighter air and likely would have walked away with the championship had the winds been as they predicted.  As it was, 4 of the 5 races were in heavy air: http://rbsailing.blogspot.com/2015/09/quarter-ton-cup-1978.html

The 26 has almost 2' more W/L - that's 10% on those boats so another point for windy conditions.

By the way, that 19.8 SA/D was huge for those days - my custom Kirby Q/T was only 17 - and that with a taller than original rig.

And it was a light air bandit - nothing could touch it under 8 knots of breeze.

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On 2/8/2021 at 3:36 PM, SloopJonB said:
On 2/8/2021 at 12:54 PM, ROADKILL666 said:

IMO the J-41 is one of the very best looking of the 30.5 One Tonners.

It is indeed.  But it was also a bit of a betrayal.  Rod Johnstone had repeatedly crapped on IOR and IOR boats, with a lot of valid critiques of the rule and its boats.  Then he upped and designed his own IOR boat.  IIRC, it was quite successful

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8 minutes ago, LordBooster said:
2 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Unfortunately for the seller, the ad also includes photos.

Maybe, but on the whole there's a lot of yacht for the money.

A lot of yacht = a lot of opportunities for expensive maintenance/refit, which has not been done

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7 hours ago, LordBooster said:

 

Tabasco V !! a Joubert-Nivelt "close follow-up" on their 79 admiralers "Dugenou" and "Accanito", and the way to things to come with their succesful"Diva" series. Has the added advantage to hv been built by this supreme Swiss yard "Egger" .

 

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8 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

Large Marge?  Was in Detroit for at least the last 20yrs.  

That one was MR IV, this one is MR III.

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That is ex Melancolie 4, beautifully restored by my next door neighbour Yann Servignat. Currently sitting on her mooring about 400m from where I am sitting.

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On 2/14/2021 at 12:38 PM, Nick G said:

If you are asking about Damn Near from the Bay Area, there was series of like named boats owned by Bert Damner from the San Francisco YC. There are a lot of people on this site who could help fill in the blanks. Just need more specifics on the boat in question. I.e. length, year, rig/sail plan  etc. 

As a kid in the Bay Area I did bow and other tasks on an IOC (IC) named Quickstep (#33 I think). We raced against Bert on his which was, of course, named... Damn Near. It was a very competitive fleet of probably 15 boats or thereabouts and he was always near the front. The master at the time was IC Hall of Fame inductee Jake Wosser - legendary sailer. We always tried to follow where "the Snake" was leading.

Recall going downwind off the Marina Green one fine day beside Bert when our mainsheet was pulled completely out and piled up in the cockpit. Gave us a couple shaky moments as our skipper was distracted and steering erratically close to Damn Near - a bit of polite yelling ensued.

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3 hours ago, vtloon said:

That is 25K Pounds by the way.

$35K USD - a new carbon main sail will cost more than that.

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Great boat - IN HER TIME. What the hell can you do with it now?? Every picture has 4 digit repair/upgrade things. And who's got a 20 person competent crew list ??

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