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Old racer back to water


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So I bought a boat, actually traded it and it is actually big project so first half of sentence was false. This is my first sailboat project, also longest and heaviest. In theory plan is easy, remove bad parts, replace with good parts, put boat in water and sail. In reality there is some challenges to tackle on.

But as you can see I told quite little about boat here, I let you guess what it is from these few pictures.

 

So bets in, what are my changes of finishing this project?

 

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Yeah, I got bored alternating between sleeping and working, something else to do with my time.

Now little more information about boat, it is 5.5 metre boat designed by Tore Holm so square meter and Knud Reimers wasnt too far off. This is one of earliest examples of this class in world so it still retains classic lines. Here is picture of it sailing in 1950´s, I got it from man who owned it in 1951-1954.

I have wooden rig for it and one piece of intact cotton spinnakers, one piece of ripped spinnaker. Mast is surpricingly light and bendy, these things had running backstays after all. No idea if mast is original as it is in great shape, but comparing it to this picture it seems to be very similar.

Reason why I bought 5.5 is that I love classic lines, but I still want speed and these were as fast as you can get with old fashioned displacement hull.

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And then current condition. These were pictures I got from seller, deck rotten, hull full of leave, but boards didnt look too bad so I went to take a look. After some time of hitting knife in different parts of hull I decided to take it.

 

I have worked with this for few months now so first stages are gone trough with quick recap.

First job was to pull whole 2 tons of boat to shed I rented. Chain pulley was good tool.

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I was quite happy to find healthy looking mahogany after paint stripping.

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Then it was time to start removal of ballast keel, you can see haphazard reinforcement I made for transportation. These hulls are not too stiff if they dont have deck.

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To make removal easier lower boards were removed from keel. Things dont look too pretty here, but wood is not too bad. 

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I am not as beginner with wooden things as it might have sounded and I will have help from my father who has woodworking experience. I will find some pictures of our earlier projects.

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On 12/14/2020 at 11:54 PM, Mid said:

given your location and providing the sheds heated I'd say the odds are good 'cause there's naf all else to do ...

 

Someone in OP orbit, most likely his pop has the shed, done this before and will be there. Unlike Talley Ho, this is not a project fo make money and build a greater media profile. These lovely meter boats are an acquired taste to own. sure hope they like how it sails, how they fit and the comfort level in it once they are done.
 

 

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I was involved (on foredeck of R-3, note original wood mast) in restoring an "R" class 45 yrs back, it was "Only" 50 yrs old at the time. 

Replacing a deck is a lot easier than garboards or frames... 

Willingness to update with modern materials (glass over plyswood, aluminum spars,  SS rig,  synthetic sails) will remove a lot of the anguish. 

 

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4 hours ago, Black Jack said:

Someone in OP orbit, most likely his pop has the shed, done this before and will be there. Unlike Talley Ho, this is not a project fo make money and build a greater media profile. These lovely meter boats are an acquired taste to own. sure hope they like how it sails, how they fit and the comfort level in it once they are done.

Shed I managed to rent quite cheaply from local sailing club ( had to join it though ), but yes my father has experience of woodcrafts and we have done some similar projects before.This runs completely on my own budget, it is tight, but should be enough. Not going to skimp on materials.

I have some experience of crewing similar boats, I like the way these sail. Interior of these, well more like "how they wont fit" and comfort, what is that? I expect it to be better than tenting, thats all.

2 hours ago, LionessRacing said:

I was involved (on foredeck of R-3, note original wood mast) in restoring an "R" class 45 yrs back, it was "Only" 50 yrs old at the time. 

Replacing a deck is a lot easier than garboards or frames... 

Willingness to update with modern materials (glass over plyswood, aluminum spars,  SS rig,  synthetic sails) will remove a lot of the anguish. 

Frames, well, they need some work here too. They like to crack near bilge in these. I will upgrade some parts, bilge frames will be laminated with epoxy, plywood deck (it had one originally) will be glassed over, I am planning to buy aluminium spar if my budget allows (from manufacturer that has made most of 5.5m masts lately), I will get modern sails, I save cotton spinnaker for "fun".

Following pictures are the reasons I had bravery to start this project. Snipe was built from scratch and result was quite good, some material choices were bad. I steered my first sailing race with it this summer, handicap race agaist larger keel boats. Finished exactly at middle of pack. Motorboat is just restoration, it was built in 1960´s. This is my fathers work, his first time with boats.

Even with these on background this is still novice work. Every time there is problem, lots of time is needed to find best solution. Learning by doing, you get acceptable result even without prior knowledge if you are ready to try again if you fail at first time.

I would like to do perfect, but I know that with such approach this project would last forever. I will follow these ideas during work:

- Original 1950´s look is goal

- Original structure must be saved as much as possible

- Boat should comply with 5.5 meter class rating 

- Changes should be reversable and they should not need changes to original parts

- Changes should make boat more usable or increase its speed

 

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32 minutes ago, Pertsa said:

Shed I managed to rent quite cheaply from local sailing club ( had to join it though ), but yes my father has experience of woodcrafts and we have done some similar projects before.This runs completely on my own budget, it is tight, but should be enough. Not going to skimp on materials.

I have some experience of crewing similar boats, I like the way these sail. Interior of these, well more like "how they wont fit" and comfort, what is that? I expect it to be better than tenting, thats all.

Frames, well, they need some work here too. They like to crack near bilge in these. I will upgrade some parts, bilge frames will be laminated with epoxy, plywood deck (it had one originally) will be glassed over, I am planning to buy aluminium spar if my budget allows (from manufacturer that has made most of 5.5m masts lately), I will get modern sails, I save cotton spinnaker for "fun".

 

You would be hard pressed to find more of a woodenboat lover than me. I have restored quite a few on  tight budgets. I spent stupid amounts of time and loved every moment of it. Sounds like you know some things and have ideas. Why do you feel you need to laminate the bilge frames, fiberglass the deck or even change the mast? You really don't. The ability to throw epoxy as a preservative may not mean the boat will last any longer and sometimes hides problems that are harder to address in the years to come. The boat is already open and take advantage to do it the way the original builders would do.  Questionable frames can be copied and replaced in order or sistered in neat fashion. Planks replaced and recaulked. you can in workman like fashion restore it as it was with canvas top, some new chainplates and standing rigging that will address the change in sail dynamics. These will be keys to refreshing this boat and be ready for next spring and summer. As for the vintage "moldy" cotton sails... that is quaint thought but once you get new Dacron sails the boat will never wear those old rags again.

This restoration you are doing should be put on woodenboat posting each step in detail and photographs from soup to nuts.  You will get the motivation and help a project like this deserves. Besides that those folks would love to be part of that and they do love to help and contribute good practices are time and woodenboat savers. good luck with this restoration project.

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1 hour ago, Pertsa said:

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I take back my negativity - you ain't no newbie at this.

If your work is a fraction of the standard of those pics that boat is gonna be freakin' gorgeous.

Keep us posted with lots of pics & details.

Keep the wood spar unless or until it breaks - that will suit your restoration mindset and save major $$$.

I trust you're going to strip & varnish the hull. ;)

P.S. That cotton spinnaker has got to be a collectible - how many of them can there be?

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1 hour ago, Black Jack said:

Why do you feel you need to laminate the bilge frames, fiberglass the deck or even change the mast? You really don't. The ability to throw epoxy as a preservative may not mean the boat will last any longer and sometimes hides problems that are harder to address in the years to come. The boat is already open and take advantage to do it the way the original builders would do.  Questionable frames can be copied and replaced in order or sistered in neat fashion. Planks replaced and recaulked. you can in workman like fashion restore it as it was with canvas top, some new chainplates and standing rigging that will address the change in sail dynamics. These will be keys to refreshing this boat and be ready for next spring and summer. As for the vintage "moldy" cotton sails... that is quaint thought but once you get new Dacron sails the boat will never wear those old rags again.

This restoration you are doing should be put on woodenboat posting each step in detail and photographs from soup to nuts.  You will get the motivation and help a project like this deserves. Besides that those folks would love to be part of that and they do love to help and contribute good practices are time and woodenboat savers. good luck with this restoration project.

By laminating frames I mean replacing frame with laminated one. Why laminated - because I have observed and heard that 5.5 metres seem to crack their bilge frames. With laminated frames change of this is lower. This was recommended by some of local 5.5 meter specialists. They look little less original, but I am okay with that. And they are replaceable item. If someone wants some day to return original look it is reasonably easy. 

Bad planks will be replaced, I want only healthy wood in my boat. I have read two blogs of restoration of 5.5 meters by professionals, in both cases they regret that they did not put glass on deck over plywood. Reason of planning aluminum mast and these other changes is that I plan to make this boat able to compete succesfully in classics class in 5.5 metre competitions. Mast is still question, it is possible that I leave this original. 

Woodenboat magazine forums? Would they understand hunt of performance in old hull. 

2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I take back my negativity - you ain't no newbie at this.

If your work is a fraction of the standard of those pics that boat is gonna be freakin' gorgeous.

Keep us posted with lots of pics & details.

Keep the wood spar unless or until it breaks - that will suit your restoration mindset and save major $$$.

I trust you're going to strip & varnish the hull. ;)

I still count myself as somewhat newbie, some parts are clear, but some need lots of thought. 

I plan to keep it safe but as I plan to race this thing (it was made for that, it goes to waste without competing) aluminium spar would be better. Wooden masts have quite short service life in such use and original is in such wonderful shape. There is also change that I go first summers with old one and upgrade if I feel the need.

Varnish on hull was first big guestion. I thought about it a lot, but I ended up reasoning that I should paint hull to protect it better from UV load. Another reason is that there is well done damage repair in right side of hull, but it does not match in colour, it really stands out. I love varnished mahogany, but well done paint is not bad either.

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41 minutes ago, Pertsa said:

By laminating frames I mean replacing frame with laminated one. Why laminated - because I have observed and heard that 5.5 metres seem to crack their bilge frames. With laminated frames change of this is lower. This was recommended by some of local 5.5 meter specialists. They look little less original, but I am okay with that. And they are replaceable item. If someone wants some day to return original look it is reasonably easy. 

Bad planks will be replaced, I want only healthy wood in my boat. I have read two blogs of restoration of 5.5 meters by professionals, in both cases they regret that they did not put glass on deck over plywood. Reason of planning aluminum mast and these other changes is that I plan to make this boat able to compete succesfully in classics class in 5.5 metre competitions. Mast is still question, it is possible that I leave this original. 

Woodenboat magazine forums? Would they understand hunt of performance in old hull. 

I still count myself as somewhat newbie, some parts are clear, but some need lots of thought. 

I plan to keep it safe but as I plan to race this thing (it was made for that, it goes to waste without competing) aluminium spar would be better. Wooden masts have quite short service life in such use and original is in such wonderful shape. There is also change that I go first summers with old one and upgrade if I feel the need.

Varnish on hull was first big guestion. I thought about it a lot, but I ended up reasoning that I should paint hull to protect it better from UV load. Another reason is that there is well done damage repair in right side of hull, but it does not match in colour, it really stands out. I love varnished mahogany, but well done paint is not bad either.

Dude - Get thee to wbf and join. I would introduce you to the kids personally but I am serving a time out currently. :ph34r:
http://forum.woodenboat.com
you have a lot to learn. We all start thinking we know. Keep in mind most pay others to figure out their problems and their advice is worth what it is on its face You are on a wonderful journey. Get the books and take the time to learn about why the original builders did what. They did do or want to do it. . Once you do you can begin to mix what you do know with new materials to make it better.  No doubt modern methods are intriguing but don’t ever think they are always better on old construction and designs/

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10 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

I take back my negativity - you ain't no newbie at this.

If your work is a fraction of the standard of those pics that boat is gonna be freakin' gorgeous.

Keep us posted with lots of pics & details.

Keep the wood spar unless or until it breaks - that will suit your restoration mindset and save major $$$.

I trust you're going to strip & varnish the hull. ;)

P.S. That cotton spinnaker has got to be a collectible - how many of them can there be?

Me too !

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9 hours ago, Black Jack said:

Dude - Get thee to wbf and join. I would introduce you to the kids personally but I am serving a time out currently. :ph34r:
http://forum.woodenboat.com
you have a lot to learn. We all start thinking we know. Keep in mind most pay others to figure out their problems and their advice is worth what it is on its face You are on a wonderful journey. Get the books and take the time to learn about why the original builders did what. They did do or want to do it. . Once you do you can begin to mix what you do know with new materials to make it better.  No doubt modern methods are intriguing but don’t ever think they are always better on old construction and designs/

Well, maybe I should start topic there too. I could get sailing related info from here and woodenboat info from there. I am just little scared of woodenboat forums, local one is mess. Modern tehcniques are heresy and epoxy is antichrist for some users and message after message they cry about that. All contradicting advice I got from multiple professionals. 

I trust in "if it is not broken, dont fix it" and going to copy original methods mostly, from fixings to lead paint as rot protection for frames under waterline (not outside, not allowed anymore). But in some cases I trust modern ways, like epoxy and glass on decks after all, I have over 10 years of personal experience of that. That motorboat is now been in use over 13 years since its resto so it is safe to say that it is pretty good benchmark for techniques used.

 

But in meanwhile:

Sight was pretty sad when first boards from keel were removed, luckily all that is just dirt and dirty wood, no rot. Long live lead paint.

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All removed boards are carefully saved for making cutting of new ones easier. These had been damaged by all the sanding over the years.

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Looks pretty good

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And the frames, there is a lot of work to come. I am still undecided if I should replace complete frame or only lower half as frames are in great condition over waterline and still tightly fixed. Anyway these are going to be laminated as suggested many people who have experience of these 5.5 meter boats. Seems like these frames were issue even when these boats were new. You can see reinforcements made from bronze in some of frames.

Luckily there are no bad shape changes in bilge. Some minor issues can be corrected with temporary "floors" which are used to pull boards to correct shape.

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New wood, from (almost) local shop which specializes in supplying exotic woods for boatbuilders. They sell to hobbyists too and let us to warehouse to select boards we like.

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Testing rig for making frames

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And finally some prototype frames with their shape examples. I am not going to start replacing frames right now. First I need to make sure that boat is in its original measurements. Before that I need to replace rotten upper stringer/ beam shelf. So more of that later.

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Those original frames look ridiculously undersized - more like trim than structure.

Laminated replacements are the only way to go.

I'd seriously consider adding another lamination to each as well.

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They are 19 x 20 mm which translates to 25/32 as specified by designer. These were really made for racing, if I remember right Tore Holm once commented that these boats had expected service life of 10-15 years.

Yes, I think laminating is right choice. Only drawback is little worse look. It does move forces to other parts of hull, but that was how it was designed to work, not crack its frames or bend them when under load. I think I go with original dimensions as these boats have pretty strict weight limits. I do not want to go overweight and be forced to cut ballast.

3 minutes ago, chuso007 said:

Love it... 

Always best to see rotten wood in someones elses hands ;)

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8 hours ago, Pertsa said:

They are 19 x 20 mm which translates to 25/32 as specified by designer. These were really made for racing, if I remember right Tore Holm once commented that these boats had expected service life of 10-15 years.

Yes, I think laminating is right choice. Only drawback is little worse look. It does move forces to other parts of hull, but that was how it was designed to work, not crack its frames or bend them when under load. I think I go with original dimensions as these boats have pretty strict weight limits. I do not want to go overweight and be forced to cut ballast.

Always best to see rotten wood in someones elses hands ;)

I sometimes sail on this one (and other Sixes)...

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jsA2IhpaaHIKQ1uSbToBl6Rmo-9dG2sNjR3Xr7hYxwM5Y9QLrb5CGft99Zuhq8MONFQi1DRQKp3xoMHsd48lLl5qeRa7AN2C8qAFBcY1oPAZrYlu_Z6g0StX_q9Yuls7SHOx7bVWp8MwAc4aTnJKM5yQi5vAfmdXciISgpbgNs28KZQkn0mJgYmSrpc7x5RLPglE2tySAudcdAnhZnxIZtvtMqJ4wh3JO6Sg-ONFl6Zw10vLaSaTJZUc3mFxBTz57EyDDucOzwhfPMkszxn89c6IIBDLb0uLXfry-WsdBbx9NiDjB4kwzNaRZZxiaRFz2c2h3U0btSCqjT_PIShnnAPlklJ0lkM9hWLcKNyToxiK8OEl8jXgkLfXsG_vI_GPLVnL0EdYldZn6ND4BXh7tkJ-CclfwxCSA5Vtxa94XHsJBiQ6iZ_23ZevsqfAEhIG-P9xek5r_Yb6MTdreJG2wdQdj3A5w6YPEP0kyrElb2rAJEWKVHOj3GsaRUGD3M7bQGfm3y2pOAHtP5oYoi3lsa6_L5FfKEx3yjkeu-0nK_tvUVC8anmsXLYQHeR65ebVMy2Sk57NYwgPqiaGuRbAGNAZUddsDkXui8r3PmVs4HrbyqInW0gEJcTDNsTtJqYa1pRbyEO62HrsD26ZtouisY2CR75-BF_LV-aDuFeGLcXAN8OqHl7wob_zoIS3NA=w1250-h937-no?authuser=0

No rotten wood there though...

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I was thinking that new steamed frames varnished would have looked nicer and original.  Straight grain lumber would have near the same strength without the worry of any delamination. 

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Just now, SloopJonB said:

I'd say cracking of steamed frames would be a whole lot more likely than epoxy laminations coming apart.

ABS Guide for Building and Classing Offshore Racing Yachts lists the allowable stress for non-laminated wood stiffening members as 0.375 x the modulus of rupture and laminated stiffening members as 0.42 x the modulus of rupture. That's just a 12% increase in strength for the laminated member.

Lloyd's Rules and Regulations for the Classification of Yachts and Small Craft (Part 2, Chapter 4, Section 4, Table 4.5.1) requires a higher section modulus for laminated frames than for bent frames after correcting for frame spacing. This indicates Lloyd's has concluded laminated frames are weaker than bent frames.

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19 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Lloyds is so archaically conservative I wouldn't be surprised if their specs are based on hide glue.

LOL. Yeah I just read that some of those Brits were cunts too.

If one felt compelled to laminate frames I would suggest T-88 adhesives over west system. Thats the way I did it with my well known boat guru (Sven Svendson) with some hidden frames on my racing Knarr and Bird boat rebuilds.

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Wow, that 6mr is beautiful, I would love such deck, but these 5.5´s are not really designed to have those. They are too heavy and will ruin boat.

12 hours ago, Ned said:

Make sure to get in touch with the 5.5 class as there are many restorations completed and resources with details and so on.  

Good luck. 

Yeah, I contacted local 5.5 m measurer who himself owns one fast classic. It is important as these boats are still measure pretty accurately. You dont get away with incorrect dimensions or weight.

11 hours ago, Black Jack said:

I was thinking that new steamed frames varnished would have looked nicer and original.  Straight grain lumber would have near the same strength without the worry of any delamination. 

It is true, that is why I will use steamed frames in places where laminated ones wont be needed. I base decision to change to laminated frames to recommendations of two invidividual professional boatbuilders who have restored 5.5 metre boats. It is said that this has solved issues of cracking bilge frames. I will be using Gurit Ampro which seems to have similar performance with that T-88 (ISO 527 standards).

If I have spare wood I can make completely unscientific and unuseful test where i try to measure forces needed to break frame made with each method.

Anyway, here is ballast keel removal process, what can I say, bronze bolts are only way to go. They opened like dream, had no corrosion damage, they had not ruined the wood and were easy to pull of. If these were steel... well story would be other kind of.

As I did not have lifting equipment at this moment I had to support keel upright and pull it forwards to clear it from hull. Then is just lowered it sideways. Had to be careful as thing weighs 1250kg.

 

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I kind of feel like this is going to take another winter aswell :D

 

Covering boards off

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Varnished cotton has kept things neat

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Uh-oh 

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Not that bad really, both are quite easy parts to replace as their replacement doesn´t mean extra disassembly.

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On 12/16/2020 at 3:45 PM, SloopJonB said:

I

Keep the wood spar unless or until it breaks - that will suit your restoration mindset and save major $$$.

I trust you're going to strip & varnish the hull. ;)

P.S. That cotton spinnaker has got to be a collectible - how many of them can there be? 

+1 you are good enough to fix anything it seems, even a broken spruce hollow mast!  I have Sailed from the start in the 60s in wood Classic 6 Meters. Over the years I was on board when 3 wood masts went over the side. One was a bad runner cleat job. Broke at the deck. One a 28 knot gust running deep on a jibe, gust cracked it bad, but still standing, I raped it with line and we still finished.

The shipwright owner and great sailer I race with  just scarfed in new Sitka Spruce in to the broken area. He spliced them both up into new condition in a few weeks spare time both times. And back on the race course both times to finish the 6M series.  The old girls sticks work and look great in fresh varnish. Just sand it and refinish checking the metal bits for ware.

I did see a 30 Square meter wood mast compressed in two by a new modern Kevlar main. Sail maker said he made a mistake and did not give the boat a sail made for a wood mast. It over powered it into three pieces. So when you buy  new rags make sure every ones on the same page as far at mast to main fit goes.. Have fun.

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Chuso007, Beautiful, thats the look I want also. Even though boat will be painted you can still see its beautiful wooden inteorior.

 

Wooden mast I have is pretty much intact, it is like new. Not a single black spot, crack or varnish damage. I have no idea how old it is, but it is super light and bendy. Ideal plan for me would be that I could fit boat with aluminium or wooden mast so risking wooden mast would not be needed in those summers that I am racing.  I wonder if old mast is compatible with new sails? I was planning to buy first used sails from another boat, we have few boats here that renew their sails quite often as this boat was designed for max sail area I can use sails from almost all other boats.

 

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This certainly has pretty classic lines, because that I think it is beautiful, but it also isn´t fastest of these classical designs. On the other hand I have heard that this boat was quite well balanced. It did well in every weather and I like that. 

Here is original sail plan, note that this boat has slightly clipped aft, you can see faint pencil mark at stern. It is about 18 cm shorter.

Tomorrow It is time to go to continue work with boat, I got some woodworking tools as Christmas present so they have to be tested.

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Plan for tomorrow is to finish replacing heads of some rotten frames so I can replace beam shelf which has rotten trough. I have to do that before I can make sure that boat still match these dimensions.

I think I am going to print and frame these. Tore Holm really drew beatiful lines and beautiful drawings. Also there is original measurement certificate. 60% of weight is in ballast keel, quite nice rate, isn´t it?

You can see some extra pictures of project here https://www.instagram.com/gullvinge55/ but you are not going to miss anything if you wont use instagram. I am going to tell more about progress here anyway. 

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This is the boat I spent last summer in, spent most of the time at foredeck. Boat should be familiar for Bull City.

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Pertsa,

you have of course seen this: https://5.5inventory.org/FIN/001/ 
Gullvinge's deck has been a problem for some time ...

Another site worth looking at: https://www.classicsailboats.info/5-5-metre

Anyhow, Gullvinge seems to be built by Blomqvist in Borgå, Finland (as you very well know). That is probably a good indication for a long life even though Tore Holm predicted otherwise.
BTW, I know of a Tore Holm SK 55 built in 1917, still sailing; also these boats were not designed to last. The owner painted the hull white some years ago as when varnished the hull above the waterline had a tendency to dry out during summer (even in Swedish summers). He still has a wooden mast, looks rather much like original, it is a so called marconi (pre-bent top) - works fine.  May not be hollow spruce, however.

From your posts it is very clear that you know what you are doing!  Good luck!  (and, yes, more posts, please)

/J

 

 

 

 

 

 

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16 hours ago, Bull City said:

What a lovely boat you have. Are the floors wood?

Yes, I dont know if metal floors would be any lighter, but I am sure that for this size of boat wooden floors made from oak are more than enough. There is no any major metal parts except ballast.

And this small detail, which I love. Trailing edge of rudder is specified to be made from brass with specially noted "skarp kant" - "sharp edge". You know it is meant to be fast.

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10 hours ago, Jaramaz said:

Pertsa,

you have of course seen this: https://5.5inventory.org/FIN/001/ 
Gullvinge's deck has been a problem for some time ...

Another site worth looking at: https://www.classicsailboats.info/5-5-metre

Anyhow, Gullvinge seems to be built by Blomqvist in Borgå, Finland (as you very well know). That is probably a good indication for a long life even though Tore Holm predicted otherwise.
BTW, I know of a Tore Holm SK 55 built in 1917, still sailing; also these boats were not designed to last. The owner painted the hull white some years ago as when varnished the hull above the waterline had a tendency to dry out during summer (even in Swedish summers). He still has a wooden mast, looks rather much like original, it is a so called marconi (pre-bent top) - works fine.  May not be hollow spruce, however.

From your posts it is very clear that you know what you are doing!  Good luck!  (and, yes, more posts, please)

/J

Yep, that is familiar site. Previous owner started deck work. These deck issues probably base back in time when new deck was made with teak cover.

I read from somewhere that Blomqvist was considered as one of "premium" builders of the time. This boat really seems to be professionally made while it is certainly visible that back then making of these was just daily job and they were made for common use. There is no unneccessary detailing in places that are not visible when boat is finished.

Those SK55´s are cool, overhangs taken to the max. 

 

Today I continued work to replace beam shelf. Some frames had taken dry rot damage because leaky deck, but rot wasnt too far in them. I used belt sander to sand rot away and new wood is glued on place of them. After that added part will be sanded to frame dimensions. There will be also rivets from beam shelf and boards which will strenghten joint. This is the style of repair I personally hate, but in this case changing whole frame would have been idiotic. After all there is not much force carried by end of frame and it is not even visible.

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All the other frames look like this when sanded. It is like they were installed yesterday.

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Benefit of cheap power tools, you can modify them easily. This had plastic housing for better dust control, but it prevented this to be used between frames. Few minutes with knive and problem was gone.

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1 hour ago, Pertsa said:

Benefit of cheap power tools, you can modify them easily. This had plastic housing for better dust control, but it prevented this to be used between frames. Few minutes with knive and problem was gone.

I love this.

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1 hour ago, Bull City said:

It looks like you have removed the deck structure, and have installed braces to maintain the hull shape. Correct?

Are you in Finland?

Previous owner had started work by removing deck almost completely so I added some reinforcements for transport. Now when I have added supports to hull I have removed some braces to allow work to be done. Next I will measure hull and use temporary braces and ratchet straps to pull hull to correct dimensions. Then I add new deck frames that will re-reinforce hull and at that point there should be no risk of losing hull shape anymore.

That is correct.

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Not much progress, but I will post anyway as I keep this as journal to myself also so I can check it later if I have urge to start another project (worked well with my old car restoration).

Anyway, repair of frame heads is almost finished. Just final sanding needed. Dryfitting of new beamsheft has started. I try to copy style of original scarf joints.  One board is removed, it had suffered rot damage and had been repaired with 1 foot piece. I will replace at least 3 feet piece of board.

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This is nice little detail, all mast fittings are handmade, they all have handmade look in them.

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3 hours ago, DRIFTW00D said:

Nice! The mast has a main sail luff tape groove! The old girls I sail on all had mast tracks a slides on the mains.

Yes, it seems to be professionally made spar.

 

Now frame heads are almost finished, just 3 more. Then I need to replace few very short cracked frames in extreme aft and I can install new beam shelf. This feels already much more fun when I am actually adding new wood to boat and not disassembling it.

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Also I got few old pictures of Gullvinge from photographer Jorma Rautapää who was very kind and looked trough his old negative archieves to find pictures. If you like beautiful wooden boats check his website: https://www.sailsandsea.fi/

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Just now, Pertsa said:

This feels already much more fun when I am actually adding new wood to boat and not disassembling it.

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That's because you are now progressing instead of regressing. :D

I still say you need to buy a drum of varnish.

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I wish I had a customer with the money to pay us to do a job like that. 
we could probably finish in under a year. 
 

I am reasonably  certain restoration would cost more than using it as a pattern and making another 

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6 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I wish I had a customer with the money to pay us to do a job like that. 
we could probably finish in under a year. 
 

I am reasonably  certain restoration would cost more than using it as a pattern and making another 

That is close what previous owner got quote for. With 8 hour days this would be pretty "quick" job.

Are you sure? I thought that making new planking is the most expensive part of building boat and this has planking in very good condition so no need to replace it. This hull has some planks that need to be planed to shape and I would guess it is PITA.

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4 hours ago, Pertsa said:

That is close what previous owner got quote for. With 8 hour days this would be pretty "quick" job.

Are you sure? I thought that making new planking is the most expensive part of building boat and this has planking in very good condition so no need to replace it. This hull has some planks that need to be planed to shape and I would guess it is PITA.

If the boat is mostly off n good shape my comment is nonsense 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Saga is beautiful boat.

Yeah, no need for new planking here. For my skill level it is easier to repair than build new so there is that too.

 

Nothing much to report, frame ends are repaired now. Some new frames are needed in extreme aft as they are cracked. I decided to change them now as it is easy with beam shelf missing. To confirm correct shape of hull during making new frames I started to loft drawings to make kind of exoskeleton for aft end of boat. Also my order of screws came from Germany. 

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22 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

There go those retirement plans.

Well, we kind of have those forced by state so this is not away from them. 

Damn expensive screws , I spent few days salary just for 1000 of them. I really hope they go for another 70 years then. This is kind of gift to next one who works with boat (it might be me) as removing steel screws is pain.

btw. It is -24,5 (something like -13 fahrenhait?) degrees of Celsius here, I am pretty happy that I paid for heated shed.

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  • 2 weeks later...

What I have done last weeks:

  • Lofted two aftmost stations
  • Cut temporary frame 
  • Removed frames from aft of hull

I have done these as at some point of boats history transom has been replaced with one that is unsymmetrical. Now this issue has to be fixed before I can continue. When I tested my loft of aft stations against hull I noticed that there is approximately 1,5 cm ~ 0,5 inch difference in radius of curvature of hull in aft. I am going to do my best to remove such difference, but what you think. How much that will affect performance of hull. 

I also found source for high quality quatersawn pine. And seller is just 15 miles (nautical) away from me.

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Something may have gotten twisted at some point with lack of support when hauled out, and snow.   Maybe you should you leave the asymmetry as-is and find out which tack is faster and then fix it to match the faster one?  

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27 minutes ago, PaulK said:

Something may have gotten twisted at some point with lack of support when hauled out, and snow.   Maybe you should you leave the asymmetry as-is and find out which tack is faster and then fix it to match the faster one?  

I am quite sure this is either mistake made by original builders or result of failed repair. I would suspect latter as this boat was build by one of Finlands "premiere" boatbuilders.  

Edit. And idea of finding out faster side and repairing to that is intriguing, but practically impossible after deck has been laid on. This area of hull is under 1 foot high so work there is not possible. And that is probable reason of unsymmetrical transom. Someone has replaced it without removing deck.

 

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nice! keep up the good work!

there is something very rewarding to fix up a nice wooden boat! 

 

this is a picture of 8mR falcon designed and built by William Fife in 1930. She is a weapon now, but before was a neglected liveaboard cruiser in Canada. Owner is a fife enthusiast so thought it was worth it to restore her. 

Your hobby with this boat, and that of the owner of Falcon, gives people like me something nice to look at on the water and sail on her! thank you

 

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Symmetry is a wonderful thing but...You don't know which side is correct or which side, if either, is faster. Unless this is a glaringly visual thing I would leave it alone, unless it is very easy to fix. If there is any risk of making it worse I would not go there. On the other hand if it will bother you forever that it is "wrong" then you probably have to do it. Just know you are really doing it for you and not the boat. Good Luck either way.

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8mR doesnt sound like best ever boat to use as liveaboard :DI got this because I like look of these old rule boats, probably not fastest one out there and I will be probably finishing many times last, but at least boat will look good doing that.

1 hour ago, ride2live said:

Symmetry is a wonderful thing but...You don't know which side is correct or which side, if either, is faster. Unless this is a glaringly visual thing I would leave it alone, unless it is very easy to fix. If there is any risk of making it worse I would not go there. On the other hand if it will bother you forever that it is "wrong" then you probably have to do it. Just know you are really doing it for you and not the boat. Good Luck either way.

Well, as I have original line drawings I know what Tore Holm wanted it to be at the time of this boat he had designed them 30 years so I would guess shape he drew is the fastest.

Mostly is not really visual, I will fix issue in transom as I have to replace it anyway and it is clearly seen. One station from that forward it might be best to leave it as it is. I only noticed it when I compared it to shape model made from original drawings. If I polish boat nicely under waterline every time I will race it probably affects more speed than that little shape issue?

It is so minimal difference that it should not cause any issues when re-measuring this boat for class certificate.

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3 hours ago, Pertsa said:

8mR doesnt sound like best ever boat to use as liveaboard :DI got this because I like look of these old rule boats, probably not fastest one out there and I will be probably finishing many times last, but at least boat will look good doing that.

Most of us are sailing for fun so style and a high row away factor should be well up the list of requirements.

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Work continues

Aft was strenghtened with few beams:

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And then with careful use of puukko, hammer and reciprocating saw transom was removed. Transom was made of good quality mahogany so I will be using it again as plugs. Maybe I should leave it as it is, like those sportboats :P

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Here you can easily see issue with frames. These should be a pair.

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And monthly reminder why steel should not be used on woodenboats.

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Time for some unconventional techniques:

 

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With this steelplate free board ends were tied together to allow easy control of shape of stern. Now it was easy to check that stern was still close original design. Next heavy frame will be laminated to keep stern in shape. Transom will be just thin mahogany board.

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This system made checking shape of stern easier as one of stations was in the middle of transom like this:

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In the meantime I started to 3d model hull of boat. My friend has 3d printer so I will cheating and make halfhull with it.

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On 1/26/2021 at 11:17 AM, Pertsa said:

I have done these as at some point of boats history transom has been replaced with one that is unsymmetrical. Now this issue has to be fixed before I can continue. When I tested my loft of aft stations against hull I noticed that there is approximately 1,5 cm ~ 0,5 inch difference in radius of curvature of hull in aft. I am going to do my best to remove such difference, but what you think. How much that will affect performance of hull. 

Don't worry about a little asymmetry. If you can pull the hull to your new symmetrical transom frame, and are ok with the visuals, you will not notice any performance difference from tack to tack. 

You would be surprised how many super successful sailboats have asymmetry. By a LOT more than .5 inch!

Foils, like keel, and rudder however are quite a different story. Symmetry, and alignment are critical to performance.

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14 hours ago, jhc said:

Don't worry about a little asymmetry. If you can pull the hull to your new symmetrical transom frame, and are ok with the visuals, you will not notice any performance difference from tack to tack. 

You would be surprised how many super successful sailboats have asymmetry. By a LOT more than .5 inch!

Foils, like keel, and rudder however are quite a different story. Symmetry, and alignment are critical to performance.

Good to hear. I think I can get symmetry pretty close now, as it seems to be easier than I thought.

I have to check symmetry of keel carefully, luckily tore holm had drawn keel with multiple stations so it is easy.

1 hour ago, Bull City said:

 

@Pertsa Are the fastener holes original? If so, are they going to be a problem?

 

Yes, for frames they are, for transom not likely. I will try to use as many original holes as possible and blank unused ones. Screws that I have are slightly conical for shipbuilding so they should seal their holes. For holes that are way too big I am going to drill open and fill hole with plug and drill new hole. 

I dont think it is going to cause too much issues. 

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Thank you for sharing Mr Pertsa.  You have a very interesting project.   We can all learn from your experience.  I wish you good success.  

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On 2/8/2021 at 4:13 PM, Bugsy said:

Thank you for sharing Mr Pertsa.  You have a very interesting project.   We can all learn from your experience.  I wish you good success.  

I hope I wont do any big mistakes to you learn from :D

Surgery of transom continues. I made test transom from foam to check dimensions needed for transom frame. Then it was time to prebend wood to make laminating process easier. Not much to say this time, but here are few pictures.

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I bought all C-clamps from local hardware store, they had to order more from other cities

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A little late now that you already have them, but next time you could try using plywood cutouts with wedges: plank2.jpg.e4c805e2502b207cbd5b251427459489.jpg

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On 2/11/2021 at 7:04 PM, PaulK said:

A little late now that you already have them, but next time you could try using plywood cutouts with wedges: 

Thanks for tip, would work with standard frames I need to make multiple later. In this I suspect that it would have been little complicated.

I bought stopwatch that fits to style of boat. Should be from early 50´s

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On 2/12/2021 at 10:22 PM, PaulK said:

Aren't they supposed to count down?  You'll have to get another one.  

That is true but those dedicated yachting timers are damn expensive. 

Kello769.jpg

 

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Some wood added to what will become transom frame. Huge amount of this will be removed later. Project is at pretty boring part now as I need to wait glue to dry to get this part finished and I cannot continue elsewhere until I have fixed shape issue of stern. 

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7 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

I'm sure there are members here who are content watching glue dry on interesting projects. :D

wonder who :P

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Well, watching glue to dry isn´t going to end soon. 

First one wasn´t good enough so time for take two. I hope this time it works out.

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Also I found supplier of good pine for deck frames. Next week you will see pictures of top quality planks.

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What was wrong with the first transom frame?  Twisted out of shape somehow? 

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14 hours ago, PaulK said:

What was wrong with the first transom frame?  Twisted out of shape somehow? 

Firstly timber sawn to 5 mm thickness was still too thick and  formed micro cracks even when bent when heated (no steamed because laminating).

Secondly I choose approach that needed much sanding to get correct shape and that gave lots of possibilities to make unsymmetrical shape. So when I got better idea how to make it, I choose to do it again.

 

Here is quick sketch of new approach. First I bent frame 1 by the interior shape of planking 2, after frame 1 is ready, I will install it temporary so I can make part 3 from plywood to mark needed extra wood to fill gap left by widening hull. After that is ready I will glue extra wood to frame 1 until its outer diameter is equal with plywood model 3. Now I can easily get correct angle of edge of frame just by planing straight line from aftmost edge of frame 1 to plywood shape. Reason of such complicated process is that angle which hull planking contacts transom frame changes a lot so just measuring and cutting it would be actually harder.

I hope this makes sense.

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