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Diesel Bug and Marine 16 treatment - is it working?


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I am a bit worried about responding because this subject does seem to goad some posters into calling me names . It seems to affect their equanimity in some way that I am not using magnets, removing th

I post this in a light hearted way   I think I did not even deserve to be (french)  toasted    I was merely  sharing the unfolding of an experiment I am uniquely positioned to carr

Has the flaming stopped yet?  

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I do think we need to cut Dylan some slack. He's not Rimus. He has a plan, just let him carry it out and he'll own the results. Dylan is not the type of guy to ignore all this advice and then blame someone else.

Although I think I would employ different methods, he does seem to be making progress and I'm betting that he doesn't incur more than one final starvation-based shutdown.  I won't say that what he's doing is good for the injection pump but remember that Dylan usually buys a boat for a purpose and once that purpose is fulfilled, he sells the boat.

Man, I thought my submarine maintenance paranoia was extreme. FKT and Sloop make me look like an absolute slacker.

Let's all just sit back and enjoy the ride. Dylan will be fine.

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39 minutes ago, Jim in Halifax said:

Aw shucks Dylan, you're well liked in these here parts...you weren't flamed...just lightly toasted.

I post this in a light hearted way

 

I think I did not even deserve to be (french)  toasted

 

 I was merely  sharing the unfolding of an experiment I am uniquely positioned to carry out.

I have two engines, a taylor heater to see the fuel, and the north sea with its tank agitating wave patterns.

 I want to  know if the appliance of science  and a bit of patience can allow me to carry on sailing this winter rather than undertaking challenging boat surgery in a drafty  boat yard

I was offered lots of, as yet, unsolicited, advice. Most was offered in good heart and spirit of comradeship and from positions of bth  experience and knowledge.

Some though  delivered with a surprising level of umbrage and keyboard elan

The advice was contradictory so pleasing everybody is impossible.

The advice  included paying a local old bloke to scrub the fuel while leaving the gunge in the tank,  cutting a not insignificant  hole in my boat, removing the fuel tank and therefore the engine ( a bastard of a job as the engine has to be removed via the wheel-house and extremely dangerous off centre door), re-routing the fuel system that was designed and installed by professionals, not really understanding the power of a tide, being a foolhardy slapdash lackadaisical sort of bloke and tight fisted to boot.

On the bright side one bloke did describe me as  gentleman - a slob, but still a gentleman. Thank you for that double handed compliment

Finally of sneakily attempting to turn a simple case of diesel bug into a 30 minute ppv saga

 

As for making 30minute   immaculately lit and shot films about changing oil filters.....

.I will leave those to the keen fettlers - such as lovely Mads

when push comes to shove I am an elderly sailor who would rather spend his winters attempting to film migratory birds in east anglia than head down the intimate orifices on an engine well of a 50 year old astonishingly compact motorsailor. I do not think that makes me a bad man

 

Dylan

 

 

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Glad you are taking it all in stride, what is a forum if not home for all the unsolicited advice one could hope for. Curious what is the normal amount of fuel you consume in a typical trip?  Looking at a layout of the boat it does seem like a fair bit of work to get at the tank if it's under the cockpit.  If you don't burn alot of fuel simply deleting the main tank for now and saving for a major hual out when it happens might be a good solution.  A plastic tank is cheap and provided you can find somewhere to put a temporary tank would eliminate all your headache.

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3 hours ago, dylan winter said:

Has the flaming stopped yet?

The court has yet to reach a verdict on whether the high probability of your tragic demise due to fuel contamination exceeds the fatality risk of those who set sail with an offset companionway ;) :D 

Anarchists are also troubled by the prospect of you drifting around engineless among the crocodiles of the River Ouse.

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Do the brits have a version of the old adage, "Let sleeping dogs lie"? 

I'm prone to following this wisdom in caring for anything that is oldish, like a boat or house. 

It is taking action. There may be a problem, there may not. Currently, it's sleeping, and all is well. 

Why risk a bite?

1178838589_Tommyasleep.thumb.jpg.09520c53341d99247787b433a6671714.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, SASSAFRASS said:

Glad you are taking it all in stride, what is a forum if not home for all the unsolicited advice one could hope for. Curious what is the normal amount of fuel you consume in a typical trip?  Looking at a layout of the boat it does seem like a fair bit of work to get at the tank if it's under the cockpit.  If you don't burn alot of fuel simply deleting the main tank for now and saving for a major hual out when it happens might be a good solution.  A plastic tank is cheap and provided you can find somewhere to put a temporary tank would eliminate all your headache.

The last fuel tank job I did with a buddy ended up like that. Mystery engine shut downs were no longer a mystery after we installed vacuum gauges, it became obvious the tank was contaminated with something that was clogging up the pickup tube*. The problem was that the tank was some kind of mystery metal that had been fiberglassed to the boat under the cockpit sole and was not coming out without major surgery :angry:

My friend did not need long range motoring ability, so we found room for a 10 gallon tank, installed that, and sucked all the fuel we could out of the shitty tank and just left it there.

* you put one on each side of the primary filter. High vacuum on the second one is a clogged filter, high vacuum on both of them is a clogged pickup tube ;) The gauges were around $10 each off FleaBay. The hugely frustrating thing without the gauges is if the pickup tube gets clogged, you'll think it is the filter and when you take the filter off the suction releases and the crap drops off the tube. You'll think you fixed it changing filters until said crap gets sucked back on again.

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2 hours ago, dylan winter said:

The advice  included paying a local old bloke to scrub the fuel while leaving the gunge in the tank,  cutting a not insignificant  hole in my boat, removing the fuel tank and therefore the engine ( a bastard of a job as the engine has to be removed via the wheel-house and extremely dangerous off centre door), re-routing the fuel system that was designed and installed by professionals, not really understanding the power of a tide, being a foolhardy slapdash lackadaisical sort of bloke and tight fisted to boot.

Dylan, I am very sorry that this is all stinging so much.  I hope you realise that there is great affection for you here on CA, and that people are trying in their own way to guide you away from what  they see as bad choice being made by someone for whom they wish the best.  That is mixed up with the usual CA mix of tongues-in-cheek, hyperbole, absurdism, pedantry, cultural disconnects ... and humour which doesn't always come across well in ASCII text.

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21 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Dylan is a fairly typical gentleman from the East Coast. My late father would have made him look like a man who fritters money on gadgets, upgrades, and loves to fettle.

Having learnt yacht sailing with my father and dinghy racing with my uncle I must have been 15 before I realised that on some boats stuff worked.

I am 45 and still not convinced that you can have a boat where all the stuff works.

Reminds me of the first overnight race on the boat we built as students. Pit guy : Hey guys, where's the switch for the nav light, label says navigation but nothing happens. What's up ? First amateur electrician I brought the wires from the bow, second amateur electrician did you connect them ?  First amateur electrician to pit : you might need to connect some wires. After 10 minutes of cursing we decided that the MOB light grey taped to the backstay was appropriate and they didn't even bothered to disqualify us!

@dylan winter I can't make any constructive comment.  For a constructive input, may be you could lend me your boat for a few weeks. Just sailing it,  I will be able to identify all things that could go possibly wrong with your engine as breakdowns happen. You will need somebody else for rig and rudder as I don't do maintenance by destruction for these items.

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:

I am 45 and still not convinced that you can have a boat where all the stuff works.

Reminds me of the first overnight race on the boat we built as students. Pit guy : Hey guys, where's the switch for the nav light, label says navigation but nothing happens. What's up ? First amateur electrician I brought the wires from the bow, second amateur electrician did you connect them ?  First amateur electrician to pit : you might need to connect some wires. After 10 minutes of cursing we decided that the MOB light grey taped to the backstay was appropriate and they didn't even bothered to disqualify us!

@dylan winter I can't make any constructive comment.  For a constructive input, may be you could lend me your boat for a few weeks. Just sailing it,  I will be able to identify all things that could go possibly wrong with your engine as breakdowns happen. You will need somebody else for rig and rudder as I don't do maintenance by destruction for these items.

I always have a set of battery powered  nav lights on board

18 quid and batteries are almost immortal

I had a red fitted one fail on the fisher as I was leaving the humber

A quick ferret in the gubbins box, a twist to turn it on  it on plus a lick of gaffer tape and i was back legal

D

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-Navigation-Light-Set-Emergency-Battery-Operated-Boat-Marine/133136069603?epid=621082370&hash=item1eff8733e3:g:-l0AAOSwQ~FdSoY9

D

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3 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:
3 hours ago, IStream said:

We have not abandoned our brother in arms.

Not at all - if he was around here I would show up with some pumps and gauges and lend a hand.

Ditto... my goal would be to have Dylan's engine become as reliable as possible (which is -very-) with a minimum of expense and difficult boat surgery. Would be glad to come and put own hands into fire for him.

FB- Doug

 

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

Ditto... my goal would be to have Dylan's engine become as reliable as possible (which is -very-) with a minimum of expense and difficult boat surgery. Would be glad to come and put own hands into fire for him.

FB- Doug

 

And here, as a number of cruisers who've passed through could attest. I've fixed or helped fix quite a bit of stuff.

I guess our cultural, personal and work histories differ too greatly. If I'd taken that sort of lackadaisical "she'll be right" attitude - typically Australian really - I'd have gotten people killed. I've been aboard a ship disabled inside the Antarctic pack in winter due to a fuel system failure and subsequent engine room fire. Another one in the Southern Ocean. Staff on board when we had a major failure in the hydraulic prop pitch control system. Loss of half a million dollars of sampling equipment due to a cable failure. Lots more over the years. Some unavoidable, others not so. And then there's the near-misses that cause you to wake up in a cold sweat in the night sometimes.

A fuel blockage in a small boat close to shore and with 2 other forms of propulsion possible doesn't rise even remotely close to that sort of risk, however I see it as spending more time fucking about *not* fixing the root cause than it'd actually take to deal with it permanently. Once and done. So in my mind, the time saving is actually negative unless you get real lucky. Look at those photos my friend Mike Johns posted of his fuel tank. I know for a fact that he pumped all the fuel out, through a fuel polishing system at least 3 times, still had cloudy fuel that, yes, would go through the 10 micron filters. And when on the hard, opened that tank and removed a hell of a lot of crud that was just waiting for the right combination of events to get sucked into the system.

You cannot *know* that you don't have this shit waiting to happen unless you do the job properly, not in some half-arsed it'll be OK fashion.

I've found a potential problem with how my prop drive system is set up, potential seal failure. It's not urgent but the potential for a problem is there. I could ignore it until it happens, or I can plan on how to deal with it next haul out. No guesses which option I'm taking.

Not my boat - shrug. I've been quite restrained in my comments, in fact. Ask the dren guy with the proposal to tow a barge loaded with H2 behind him for comparison if you doubt me.

FKT

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2 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And here, as a number of cruisers who've passed through could attest. I've fixed or helped fix quite a bit of stuff.

I guess our cultural, personal and work histories differ too greatly. If I'd taken that sort of lackadaisical "she'll be right" attitude - typically Australian really - I'd have gotten people killed. I've been aboard a ship disabled inside the Antarctic pack in winter due to a fuel system failure and subsequent engine room fire. Another one in the Southern Ocean. Staff on board when we had a major failure in the hydraulic prop pitch control system. Loss of half a million dollars of sampling equipment due to a cable failure. Lots more over the years. Some unavoidable, others not so. And then there's the near-misses that cause you to wake up in a cold sweat in the night sometimes.

A fuel blockage in a small boat close to shore and with 2 other forms of propulsion possible doesn't rise even remotely close to that sort of risk, however I see it as spending more time fucking about *not* fixing the root cause than it'd actually take to deal with it permanently. Once and done. So in my mind, the time saving is actually negative unless you get real lucky. Look at those photos my friend Mike Johns posted of his fuel tank. I know for a fact that he pumped all the fuel out, through a fuel polishing system at least 3 times, still had cloudy fuel that, yes, would go through the 10 micron filters. And when on the hard, opened that tank and removed a hell of a lot of crud that was just waiting for the right combination of events to get sucked into the system.

You cannot *know* that you don't have this shit waiting to happen unless you do the job properly, not in some half-arsed it'll be OK fashion.

I've found a potential problem with how my prop drive system is set up, potential seal failure. It's not urgent but the potential for a problem is there. I could ignore it until it happens, or I can plan on how to deal with it next haul out. No guesses which option I'm taking.

Not my boat - shrug. I've been quite restrained in my comments, in fact. Ask the dren guy with the proposal to tow a barge loaded with H2 behind him for comparison if you doubt me.

FKT

Yabbut, Dren was a raving idiot. Dylan's a curmudgeon who hates fucking with stuff beyond "working" status.

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5 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

And here, as a number of cruisers who've passed through could attest. I've fixed or helped fix quite a bit of stuff.

I guess our cultural, personal and work histories differ too greatly. If I'd taken that sort of lackadaisical "she'll be right" attitude - typically Australian really - I'd have gotten people killed. I've been aboard a ship disabled inside the Antarctic pack in winter due to a fuel system failure and subsequent engine room fire. Another one in the Southern Ocean. Staff on board when we had a major failure in the hydraulic prop pitch control system. Loss of half a million dollars of sampling equipment due to a cable failure. Lots more over the years. Some unavoidable, others not so. And then there's the near-misses that cause you to wake up in a cold sweat in the night sometimes.

A fuel blockage in a small boat close to shore and with 2 other forms of propulsion possible doesn't rise even remotely close to that sort of risk, however I see it as spending more time fucking about *not* fixing the root cause than it'd actually take to deal with it permanently. Once and done. So in my mind, the time saving is actually negative unless you get real lucky. Look at those photos my friend Mike Johns posted of his fuel tank. I know for a fact that he pumped all the fuel out, through a fuel polishing system at least 3 times, still had cloudy fuel that, yes, would go through the 10 micron filters. And when on the hard, opened that tank and removed a hell of a lot of crud that was just waiting for the right combination of events to get sucked into the system.

You cannot *know* that you don't have this shit waiting to happen unless you do the job properly, not in some half-arsed it'll be OK fashion.

I've found a potential problem with how my prop drive system is set up, potential seal failure. It's not urgent but the potential for a problem is there. I could ignore it until it happens, or I can plan on how to deal with it next haul out. No guesses which option I'm taking.

Not my boat - shrug. I've been quite restrained in my comments, in fact. Ask the dren guy with the proposal to tow a barge loaded with H2 behind him for comparison if you doubt me.

FKT

Yeah - this is more a time wasting issue than anything. The fuel polishing truck that comes around has a VERY high flow rate compared to your onboard pumps and get a lot of crud you can't get. Even those can't defeat some well-baffled tanks.

If ever get into designing boats, there will be no tanks you can't take out yourself unless you have a way to get yourself into them.

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7 hours ago, Autonomous said:
10 hours ago, El Borracho said:

Wow. The new Anarchy insult record. Well done!

I was in a bind. If I agreed with FKT it would go to his head so I decided to go low. Sorry, TL, collateral damage.

Unintended consequence: building up the Legend Of Rimas even bigger

FB- Doug

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14 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

A fuel blockage in a small boat close to shore and with 2 other forms of propulsion possible doesn't rise even remotely close to that sort of risk, however I see it as spending more time fucking about *not* fixing the root cause than it'd actually take to deal with it permanently

That's exactly why I am an advocate of the redundancy approach and not treating the engine of a sailboat as a "safety system" that will get you out of trouble in all situations.

As a professional, you might think that sorting out Dylan fuel issue is trivial but like many engine faults it isn't too many and this why at least French and British lifeboats keep bringing back people with non functioning engines. Most people (including Dylan and me) can read the operating manual but will need to either to call a professional or spend a lot of time fettling with a trial and error approach when it goes beyond this. 

On the other hand, if you are a decent sailor and focus on plan Bs, it is very likely that you will always manage to get yourself out of trouble. There are many very effective and practical ways to do so from most to least useful :

  • Sculling oar on a smallish boat (completely underrated by many. It gives you alternative steerage and propulsion, it is so light and easy to implement I can't see why you wouldn't have one on a boat less than 30ft / 9m long!)
  • Learn to use the sculling oar, sculling isn't just for the August 15th race!
  • Good anchor easy to deploy
  • easy to use and well maintained rig and sails
  • boat that can sail to windward in a blow
  • crew that can sail to windward in a blow
  • alternative rudder / learn to sail without rudder (loss of rudder is actually one of the incidents I fear the most as it is really hard to address on a bigger boat)
  • know if you can heave to with and without rudder  (tricky and unlikely without rudder)
  • boat and crew that can sail in light wind
  • Spare engine (can be the dinghy engine on a smallish boat)

Obviously most of these solutions are not practical on all boats but the chances are that you can find good enough ones for your boat. List is not exhaustive. It also nearly implies that if your boat can't sail to windward you need a twin engine! It will also be highly dependent of the crew, on a racing boat that is crewed by 6 big guys, rocking the boat from side to side is a realistic alternative mean of propulsion whereas it definitely isn't on a heavy cruiser.

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On 12/15/2020 at 6:44 PM, dylan winter said:

Picking up from a previous thread

I bought a Fisher 25 with pretty bad diesel bug - it had not really been used for 7 years

Stainless steel 40 gallon tank -  the owner said that the tank had been treated and kept full - but I doubt that he had used more than  half a tank in the past seven years.

While I was there the yard JCB stopped running because of diesel bug.

I put a whole 100ml  of marine 16 in

https://www.marine16.co.uk/fuel-treatments/dbt

 

I replaced the filter before starting to bring her home - there were some black crystals across the top of the filter - it looked like rust flakes - but it is a stainless tank with copper pipes. 

No worries, I had put an outboard bracket on the boat and slapped the tohatsu long shaft 6hp on the back - that will shove a centaur along at 4.5 knots so I would expect it to get me 4Knots on the fisher,

I headed south through a choppy north sea - the volvo engine went very well for four days

day four  - overnight the engine stopped half way across the wash  - after I would  guess 40 hours during the sea trials and first bit of the journey

 

no worries I had the Tohatsu on the back

I brought the boat back to the mooring under sail and outboard and changed the filter

There was some gelatinous black stuff the consistency of toothpaste on the filter top - ideal for blocking pipes

The engine ran well on the flat water estuary here for another 30 hours and then stopped - mid estuary

 

no worries.... I had the Tohatsu on the back

I changed filter and saw some generalised greyish stuff across the filter

20201113-180452.jpg

 

 

The engine then ran fine for another 20 hours

I was planning a short winter juant out into the north sea so I replaced the filter just to find out what it looked like

this is what it looked like on Friday - this one was running  well

S5860002.jpg

 

S5860001.jpg

 

On monday I headed out past the deben bar - I had intended to go north to the Ore which is marvelous for birdwatching..... but there was more power and more easterly in the wind than predicted

 

the Ore bar is bad in any easterly and the shingle is always moving - the bouys are only a guide -  so I headed south to the walton backwaters

into the teeth of a south easterly gusting 25. No sails to add stability

 

the north sea was really choppy and confused and the Fisher is tubby, draws 1m, has a lot of weight up high and is only 25 feet long. She was rolling like a goodun. The tank was being given a top notch shaking in every dimension  as the boat was powering through the messy water at 5 knots

After an hour of this the revs started to drop away, then come back,  then drop away. I started the outboard but left the main engine on low revs.   It would not run at high revs for more than one minute.  Once afely  across the Felixtowe ship channel I could ease up and the water flattened out. The erratic revs continued for half an hour, but the tank was still getting a bit of a shake.

 

I got into walton channel, picked up a mooring  mainly under outboard and  left the engine on tickover - primarily  to charge the batteries. . It was running fine, so I experimented, I  slowly increaed the revs at five minute intervals. Occasionally the revs would  drop right back down, so I came back to the revs it was happy at again. After half an hour of this the engine would run at any revs I chose. It seems that the blockage had cleared. 

 

This morning the engine started no probs -  I brought the boat back home - maybe two hours of choppy water motor- sailing  five knots through disturbed water - less rolling than the day before.The engine did not miss a beat.

Incidentally, the taylor heater has its own header tank (fed from the main tank)  and water/gunge trap.  The first time I ran the heater the gunge trap was half full of black crud, I removed that and now there is a tiny layer in the bottom, it seems quite fine and fluffy and seems to be dissolving as fuel passes through to the taylor heater.

I think that the Marine 16 is reducing the gelatinous  diesel bug crud initially to a free flowing black flakey material and then dissolving that down to a general discolouration in the fuel which they claim is burnt in the engine - you can see that some it has clung to the first filer but there is much less of it on the second.

I am lucky in that my boat is short enough to have an outboard on the back and sails  so the main engine stopping is not mission critical.  I also have a north sea for some extreme and randomised tank shaking procedures.  If by the spring this problem has not resolved istelf then I will have to  bite the bullet and either cut a hatch to access the tank or remove both the engine and the tank to clean the lot out.

So far, I am optimistric and if Marine 16 can not only control but destroy the crud then that is a wonderful thing - worth the price if it works.

 Dylan

 

 

 

You must clean the tank 

it’s likely the you have a bucket of sediment in your tank 

the tank pictured is three years since last clean 

total capacity 1200 liter , split between two tank 

diesel treatment is used 

tank stored empty , exterior air vent closed 

fuel source worldwide , unknown quality 

treatment method is mechanical removal with various brushes , followed by a pressure wash with clean treated diesel 

the pressure washer is a hand operated unit with a diffused wand 

be sure that you purchase a pressure wash that has oil resistant seals 

8900AA45-02CF-4553-8EEC-06CBC80A0903.png

AA154616-5BA7-4278-910C-667A119A1416.jpeg

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31 minutes ago, slug zitski said:

You must clean the tank 

it’s likely the you have a bucket of sediment in your tank 

the tank pictured is three years since last clean 

total capacity 1200 liter , split between two tank 

diesel treatment is used 

tank stored empty , exterior air vent closed 

fuel source worldwide , unknown quality 

treatment method is mechanical removal with various brushes , followed by a pressure wash with clean treated diesel 

the pressure washer is a hand operated unit with a diffused wand 

be sure that you purchase a pressure wash that has oil resistant seals 

8900AA45-02CF-4553-8EEC-06CBC80A0903.png

AA154616-5BA7-4278-910C-667A119A1416.jpeg

I had a stainless tank looking like that (that could be removed) cauterized once - 

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19 hours ago, TwoLegged said:
20 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Yabbut, Dren was a raving idiot. Dylan's a curmudgeon who hates fucking with stuff beyond "working" status.

And has survived a lot of coastal sea miles with this approach

I actaully wasn't saying it as a negative. It works for some people.

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1 hour ago, longy said:

Slug - when you say "tank stored empty" - is that mean pick up tube sucks air or you actually open the tank & wipe it dry??

No , perhaps ten percent full

enough to keep system primed and ready  to start 

And yes, tank opened,  cleaned and inspected 

aluminum tanks are delicate ... corrosion from the diesel bug 

stainless is the same , particularly corners and weld 

inspect 

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So tank always had a small amount of fuel sloshing about? Seems to me that is worst case scenario for growth. Most surface area to absorb moisture from max volume of air, all the bad stuff is at the bottom of the tank to begin with. Me, unless there were trim issues with the tank full, I'd top it off full with preservative sauce in it.

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25 minutes ago, longy said:

So tank always had a small amount of fuel sloshing about? Seems to me that is worst case scenario for growth. Most surface area to absorb moisture from max volume of air, all the bad stuff is at the bottom of the tank to begin with. Me, unless there were trim issues with the tank full, I'd top it off full with preservative sauce in it.

I’ve tried it both ways ..tank full, tank empty 

doesn’t seem to make much difference 

empty tank is easy to drain  without outside assistance and its easier to clean because the tank horizontal walls  don’t get fouled 

diesel fuel returned to the tank from the engine  is hot , those bugs seem to love hot fuel 

a fuel line cooler on the return line would be worthwhile on high milage   boats 

The tank pictured gets about 1000 engine hours and 1500 generator hours per year 

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1 hour ago, slug zitski said:

I’ve tried it both ways ..tank full, tank empty 

doesn’t seem to make much difference 

empty tank is easy to drain  without outside assistance and its easier to clean because the tank horizontal walls  don’t get fouled 

diesel fuel returned to the tank from the engine  is hot , those bugs seem to love hot fuel 

a fuel line cooler on the return line would be worthwhile on high milage   boats 

The tank pictured gets about 1000 engine hours and 1500 generator hours per year 

'Somewhere'..., I got the idea that the problem with warm fuel return was that after use, the fuel cools, the air in the tank cools, drawing in moist air from the tank vent due to contraction of fuel and air density.  Repeat this cycle and  over time, well, ya gots moisture in the tank...

(I'm sure someone will chime in on this...)

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Aside: My tank builder said the stainless was a poor choice for a diesel tank. Aluminum was the best material. Aluminum is better with acid...but what do I know?

These maintenance threads astonish me. In the time it takes to read the thread a proper tank could be drained, opened, scrubbed clean, and refilled. Well in a morning at most. If tank access is an issue you bought a poorly designed POS boat, to be frank. Blindly flinging a fuel polishing rig inside the tank is an expensive waste of time. My tank is only 50 g and has an access port on both sides of the baffle so I scrub all surfaces with a plastic scouring pad purloined from the galley.  The goo is sucked out with a hand pump. Can be easily accomplished in any remote place. Came with only one access port, which was kinda stupid, so I installed a second. I clean it about every five years.

My major pollutant is balls of hard resin more than algae. However the resin seems unlikely to rise up into the pickup tube...

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Modern diesel is ultra low sulphur 

this environmentally friendly low sulphur content diesel  Produces accelerated  tank fouling 

 

that why why all the emergency government diesel equipment fails when fired up in respond to events  like hurricanes 

https://www.government-fleet.com/157049/how-to-maintain-stored-diesel-fuelhttps://www.government-fleet.com/157049/how-to-maintain-stored-diesel-fuel

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23 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:
2 hours ago, El Borracho said:

If tank access is an issue you bought a poorly designed POS boat, to be frank

Plenty of very fine boats have some sub-optimal features.  That doesn't make them a POS

And many installations can be blamed on builders "optimizing" the construction.

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6 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

The Depressed Dolphins would be a good band name.

 

6 hours ago, Panope said:

More on topic would be Black Grunge.

 

6 hours ago, IStream said:

Suicidal Tendencies? ;)

Dylan & the Diesel Bugs (60's band - age appropriate)

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Dylan, have you bitten the bullet yet and banged in an inspection hatch ? the collective "we" here are gettin a bit tired of our boat bobbing about on the mooring with you cussin and fussin and not hitting the problem, we'd far rather be up some wee muddy creek watching birds with the heater doing its thing properly in the evening after a lovely days motorsail with no problems, and not a house or light in site.... slight ripple of water passing by and a warming scotch at hand.......lol

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posted at the risk of being accused of being an indolent stupid  toff

 

another week of sailing  with the bug

 

had  some splendid sailing days this week, the birds were marvelous, the evening sublime -  much nicer than being in the boatyard.

the heater worked well, the whisky tasted good, the birds were numerous and flocking beautifully

 

 

the engine never stopped and would run very happily  at 1800 revs but  after ten minutes at 2200 revs some fluctuation in revs entered the equation - say 10 per cent down and then up again. . Drop it back to  about 1800 and it was fine.

the trap on the first filter  and the trap on the heater supply  remain clear of debris or water.

So , while I was at anchor in my favourite birdwatching spot and waiting for a rain shower to pass I ( Mr Anal)  inpacked his lasagne tins, kitchen roll, rubber gloves and plastic bags. I  removed the filter on the engine without spilling a drop of diesel and replaced it - all done two feet beneath  deck level while kneeling on a narrow cross member. I am getting better at changing filters - my knees are creaking a bit.

After bleeding the still warm engine it  fired up and seemed to run fine - but not a long enough run to test it properly

 

when I got home I dismantled the filter - with some difficulty . The other one opened with a tin opener, this one needed cold chisel and tin snips

 

this is what it looks like inside

S5930001.jpg

the top had some rust on it - so it has clearly been on for some time

S5930013.jpg

 

S5930012.jpg

 

I do not think this is gunge on the top and bottom of the fins but glue to hold them in place -  I should really dismantle a new filter as I have never seen inside a new one.

 

S5930011.jpg

 

S5930010.jpg

 

I will report back when I have given the boat a good north sea shaking and have more to share.

So far the experiment with marine 16 continues to be interesting - I think it is working...

The 6hp tohatsu is still on the back of the boat. I fire it up once a week just to make sure it is ready should  I need it -  but so far has not been used in anger for ten days

I put another 45 of diesel  in the tank

Dylan

 

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It must be a collection of environmental and refinement factors that lead to the accumulation of diesel bug. A combination of the refining process and the environment that the machine sits in.  I have simply never encountered this problem. I never even have problems with ethanol gasoline sitting for months in my gasoline engines. 

My boat sat for FIVE years, untouched, with 5 gallons of diesel in the tank. Nothing but a smudge at the bottom, which I swabbed out with a Kim-Wipe taped to the end of a yard stick. I pumped out the fuel and it looked clean and usable but I disposed of it anyway. Primary and secondary filters had no water or gunk in them. I replaced them anyway.

I bought a retired 5-ton military truck that sat in a yard for EIGHT years. It fired right up.  I had the truck delivered to my house and I promptly attacked the fuel system. The filters were clean, no water, and no sludge. Nothing bad in the tank. I replaced the filters and drove the old fuel out of the tank.

I bought a retired military HMMVW (M998) built in the late '80's. It spent its last few years sitting at Fort George G. Meade, undriven. The tank is plastic and I can see into it. There's nothing growing in it. Replaced the filter, drove the old fuel out of it.

All diesel. I'm NEVER this lucky. I think it has something to do with the source of fuel in my region, how it's refined and our local environment. The most I've ever done is pour a little Seafoam conditioner into my tanks. I do try to store them full, but that's it.

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32 minutes ago, Ajax said:

It must be a collection of environmental and refinement factors that lead to the accumulation of diesel bug. A combination of the refining process and the environment that the machine sits in.  I have simply never encountered this problem. I never even have problems with ethanol gasoline sitting for months in my gasoline engines. 

My boat sat for FIVE years, untouched, with 5 gallons of diesel in the tank. Nothing but a smudge at the bottom, which I swabbed out with a Kim-Wipe taped to the end of a yard stick. I pumped out the fuel and it looked clean and usable but I disposed of it anyway. Primary and secondary filters had no water or gunk in them. I replaced them anyway.

I bought a retired 5-ton military truck that sat in a yard for EIGHT years. It fired right up.  I had the truck delivered to my house and I promptly attacked the fuel system. The filters were clean, no water, and no sludge. Nothing bad in the tank. I replaced the filters and drove the old fuel out of the tank.

I bought a retired military HMMVW (M998) built in the late '80's. It spent its last few years sitting at Fort George G. Meade, undriven. The tank is plastic and I can see into it. There's nothing growing in it. Replaced the filter, drove the old fuel out of it.

All diesel. I'm NEVER this lucky. I think it has something to do with the source of fuel in my region, how it's refined and our local environment. The most I've ever done is pour a little Seafoam conditioner into my tanks. I do try to store them full, but that's it.

I do live in a damp place - we get long wet winters and hardly any frosts - say 20 a year.

EU regs says that 7 per cent of diesel must be bio diesel

to add a layer of complication we have both red and white diesel. The red is supposed to be only used on ag vehicles, generators and boats - as a result the stuff might be sitting in tanks long before it gets to me.  The red costs £1 a litre - the white is more like £1.30

lots of sailors only buy white because of bug phobia

I have been running disel cars for many years and never had a problem - some waxing on very, very cold snaps  but always run on DERV (diesel engined road vehical fuel . I am now a prius driver - and am therefore a good man

 

Dylan

 

well done on the vehicles, post some snaps of them.  I am the the  last of four brothers - you can imagine how many vehicles passed through our hands - they almost outnumbered the girlfriends who came thrugh our system.  One evening I arrived with an old london cab and my middle brother turned up with a retired mobile library. My mother went bonkers while my dad kept his council but but smiled happily because he  could not wait to get behind the wheels of both vehicles.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, dylan winter said:

to add a layer of complication we have both red and white diesel. The red is supposed to be only used on ag vehicles, generators and boats - as a result the stuff might be sitting in tanks long before it gets to me.  The red costs £1 a litre - the white is more like £1.30

Since 2008, you are allowed to use the cheaper red diesel in a pleasure boat only if you pay the extra taxes.

And that usage is now being banned: https://www.accountancydaily.co/ecj-ruling-sees-red-diesel-outlawed-pleasure-boats

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@dylan winter

We also have red and white diesel...we just call it "off road" or "on road" diesel. The red stuff is lawful in anything that doesn't operate on public roads and highways. (boats, ag equipment, all-terrain vehicles, generators, etc). There's no road tax on the red stuff.  Woe be unto you if the State Police pull you over and pipe a sample from your fuel tank and it has red dye...

I do not commute to work with my military vehicles. They are strictly hobby, parade and heavy duty home use. My Subaru gets 34 mpg in the winter and 40 mpg in the summer. In 4 years' time, I'll retire the Subaru and purchase a Tesla for commuting which will be powered mostly by excess capacity from my home solar array. Like you, I am trying to be a "good man."

We were invited to participate in a little neighborhood Xmas parade in an attempt to bring some cheer to this blazing dumpster fire that is 2020. The parade was led by a string of golf carts with family members all dressed up as characters from the Grinch Who Stole Christmas. My wife followed in the HMMWV and I behind her in the M813. A retired fire truck with Santa and Mrs. Claus brought up the rear.  We did decorate our trucks with garland and globes. A friend and his family rode in the back of the HMMWV on the troop seats. They were socially partitioned off from my wife by the cab curtain.  One of my daughters rode with me.

A historical side note:  This large truck was part of an Army National Guard battalion in Brooklyn, NY that provided perimeter security around the World Trade Center on 9/11. The battalion was the last vehicular traffic to cross the Brooklyn Bridge before it was shut down after the attack.

Grinch.jpg

Ox.jpg

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48 minutes ago, Ajax said:

Woe be unto you if the State Police pull you over and pipe a sample from your fuel tank and it has red dye...

Similar situation in Ireland. Heavy penalties for misuse.

So enterprising people set up big operations to "launder" the diesel, especially in border areas where former paramilitaries are in on the game.  They often build underground facilities, under farmyards.  So the revenue people have helicopters, and if you get any major work done to your farmyard they spot the new concrete and come around to check you out.

But there is still a lot of laundered diesel out there, and it's common for a filing station to be caught selling it.

It's all a bit of a pain, 'cos while the laundered diesel may be ok in an old tractor, it's usually too contaminated for a modern diesel car engine.  Most ppl in rural Ireland drive diesel cars, and there's a steady trickle of cars with serious engine damage from the bad fuel.

Personally, I wish they would just abolish the marked diesel, and make all users pay the same price. That would put the gangs out of business, stop engines being broken, and get rid of those snotty inspector-bastards in their helicopters.

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1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

Since 2008, you are allowed to use the cheaper red diesel in a pleasure boat only if you pay the extra taxes.

And that usage is now being banned: https://www.accountancydaily.co/ecj-ruling-sees-red-diesel-outlawed-pleasure-boats

There is or once was a weird thing done  where if you use it for heating the boat then that escapes some taxes

In some marinas they would assume you had a heater

 

Needless to say I am out of date 

D

 

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1 hour ago, Ajax said:

@dylan winter

We also have red and white diesel...we just call it "off road" or "on road" diesel. The red stuff is lawful in anything that doesn't operate on public roads and highways. (boats, ag equipment, all-terrain vehicles, generators, etc). There's no road tax on the red stuff.  Woe be unto you if the State Police pull you over and pipe a sample from your fuel tank and it has red dye...

I do not commute to work with my military vehicles. They are strictly hobby, parade and heavy duty home use. My Subaru gets 34 mpg in the winter and 40 mpg in the summer. In 4 years' time, I'll retire the Subaru and purchase a Tesla for commuting which will be powered mostly by excess capacity from my home solar array. Like you, I am trying to be a "good man."

We were invited to participate in a little neighborhood Xmas parade in an attempt to bring some cheer to this blazing dumpster fire that is 2020. The parade was led by a string of golf carts with family members all dressed up as characters from the Grinch Who Stole Christmas. My wife followed in the HMMWV and I behind her in the M813. A retired fire truck with Santa and Mrs. Claus brought up the rear.  We did decorate our trucks with garland and globes. A friend and his family rode in the back of the HMMWV on the troop seats. They were socially partitioned off from my wife by the cab curtain.  One of my daughters rode with me.

A historical side note:  This large truck was part of an Army National Guard battalion in Brooklyn, NY that provided perimeter security around the World Trade Center on 9/11. The battalion was the last vehicular traffic to cross the Brooklyn Bridge before it was shut down after the attack.

Grinch.jpg

Ox.jpg

Fek

Goodonya

My wife would be really unhappy if I parked one of those anywhere near  her garden

D

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Ha, my wife uses the HMMWV for tending her garden! She hauls soil and mulch with it.  Lots. 

I use the big guy to haul tons of palletized pellet fuel for my heating stove. 

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3 hours ago, dylan winter said:
5 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

Since 2008, you are allowed to use the cheaper red diesel in a pleasure boat only if you pay the extra taxes.

And that usage is now being banned: https://www.accountancydaily.co/ecj-ruling-sees-red-diesel-outlawed-pleasure-boats

There is or once was a weird thing done  where if you use it for heating the boat then that escapes some taxes

In some marinas they would assume you had a heater

You are allowed to use marked diesel in the heater of a leisure boat, but not in that boat's engine.  I suspect that there may be some blind eyes turned to the question of which tank is which.

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In some parts of the US fuel is dyed for road tax exemption, ag use and marine.  They used to check trucks in the Midwest where I grew up, farmer would typically have a truck bed tank for filling tractors and a little might find its way into the truck... I was doing some leak checking on a hydraulic system on a ship in port one time and our fuel supplier let me get into there dye a big no no I guess...

Hope you sort your tank issues out, happy holidays wherever you might be!

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9 hours ago, dylan winter said:

There is or once was a weird thing done  where if you use it for heating the boat then that escapes some taxes

In some marinas they would assume you had a heater

 

Needless to say I am out of date 

D

 

NZ has 1 flavor of diesel and  grabs the road tax via road user charges and hubometers, Govt issued petrol is dyed blue

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10 minutes ago, 167149 said:

NZ has 1 flavor of diesel and  grabs the road tax via road user charges and hubometers, Govt issued petrol is dyed blue

Fascinating.  Tell me about the hubometers.

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10 hours ago, Ajax said:

@dylan winter

We also have red and white diesel...we just call it "off road" or "on road" diesel. The red stuff is lawful in anything that doesn't operate on public roads and highways. (boats, ag equipment, all-terrain vehicles, generators, etc). There's no road tax on the red stuff.  Woe be unto you if the State Police pull you over and pipe a sample from your fuel tank and it has red dye...

I do not commute to work with my military vehicles. They are strictly hobby, parade and heavy duty home use. My Subaru gets 34 mpg in the winter and 40 mpg in the summer. In 4 years' time, I'll retire the Subaru and purchase a Tesla for commuting which will be powered mostly by excess capacity from my home solar array. Like you, I am trying to be a "good man."

We were invited to participate in a little neighborhood Xmas parade in an attempt to bring some cheer to this blazing dumpster fire that is 2020. The parade was led by a string of golf carts with family members all dressed up as characters from the Grinch Who Stole Christmas. My wife followed in the HMMWV and I behind her in the M813. A retired fire truck with Santa and Mrs. Claus brought up the rear.  We did decorate our trucks with garland and globes. A friend and his family rode in the back of the HMMWV on the troop seats. They were socially partitioned off from my wife by the cab curtain.  One of my daughters rode with me.

A historical side note:  This large truck was part of an Army National Guard battalion in Brooklyn, NY that provided perimeter security around the World Trade Center on 9/11. The battalion was the last vehicular traffic to cross the Brooklyn Bridge before it was shut down after the attack.

 

Ox.jpg

There's a truck with balls.

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9 hours ago, 167149 said:

here ya go, left rear axle (steering is on the right or correct side here) km's purchased from various places for your specified tonnage

https://www.truckstops.co.nz/media/1336/10-hubodometers-veeder-root.pdf

As we have more electric vehicles not paying fuel tax on our roads we need a way to reduce that money if we're going to fix the roads. This seems like a reasonable solution. 

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2 hours ago, Ajax said:

As we have more electric vehicles not paying fuel tax on our roads we need a way to reduce that money if we're going to fix the roads. This seems like a reasonable solution. 

I've seen those hubometers on trucks and or trailers here in the US. I think fleet operators may use them to help keep track of miles for maintenance purposes.  

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19 hours ago, Ajax said:

Ha, my wife uses the HMMWV for tending her garden! She hauls soil and mulch with it.  Lots. 

I use the big guy to haul tons of palletized pellet fuel for my heating stove. 

If you need your own lorry for those tasks, you must be heating a huge and uninsulated building, and doing industrial-scale earth-moving.

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3 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

If you need your own lorry for those tasks, you must be heating a huge and uninsulated building, and doing industrial-scale earth-moving.

No, I don't "neeeeeed" these trucks.  I'm afraid you're laboring under a misunderstanding. I did not buy these trucks to service my property. I bought them because I enjoy history and I enjoy them because they remind me of my own service to my country. It is a side benefit that they save me an enormous amount of time, labor and some money, especially during these trying times. I also appreciate that these trucks save wear and tear on my efficient commuting vehicle by absorbing these tasks.

I could waste my time hauling plastic bags and bags of gardening soil in 40lb. blobs in my Subaru, wasting my time with several trips and paying 2X the price because they are individually bagged. I could also waste my time making about 5 trips for 40lb bags of pellet fuel throughout the winter and again, paying extra because I'm buying individual bags.

Instead, I ENJOY combining my weekend hobby with the practicality of buying earth by the cubic yard to fill our raised garden beds because we do grow a lot of our own vegetables, especially during COVID when I'm trying to stay the hell out of congested, sealed up grocery stores packed full of covidiots. I make a single trip per year, pay less and drive less. The HMMWV is only a 1-1/4 truck which is much smaller than one in the photos.

My modest home is only 1700sq feet on Heaven's half-acre but again, thanks to COVID my wife is permanently teleworking. Do you know what happens when your spouse fucking works from home? All utility consumption increases at MY expense while her employer reaps dividends in the form of energy savings because they're not heating the office and all the computers are turned off.

Internet bandwidth, water and electrical, all are increased. Instead of getting by on only a single ton of pellet fuel for the entire winter, our heating consumption is doubled. So, I took my 5-ton truck and bought 2 tons of palletized fuel in a single trip, at a per-ton discount. By my estimates so far, 2 tons will be barely enough. I might end up running to the store for a week's worth of pellets in April.

I guaran-fucking-tee that a single trip in my HMMWV for dirt is a smaller carbon footprint than 4 trips in my Subaru + all the plastic waste from the bags.

 

 

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You have pellets in April? You lucky dog. I can burn through three tons easy in a winter. I'm usually left hunting from store to store in March, scrounging up enough bags to keep me through. My Tacoma only hauls half a ton at a time. Keep telling myself that I'll pick up a bigger truck at some point, but that cuts into the boat money. Can't have that happening.

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39 minutes ago, The Lucky One said:

You have pellets in April? You lucky dog. I can burn through three tons easy in a winter. I'm usually left hunting from store to store in March, scrounging up enough bags to keep me through. My Tacoma only hauls half a ton at a time. Keep telling myself that I'll pick up a bigger truck at some point, but that cuts into the boat money. Can't have that happening.

It depends on how much I split the heating burden between the heat pump and the pellet stove.  As you know,  a heat pump is almost useless down near freezing temps and just plain inefficient the rest of the time. 

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3 hours ago, Ajax said:

I guaran-fucking-tee that a single trip in my HMMWV for dirt is a smaller carbon footprint than 4 trips in my Subaru + all the plastic waste from the bags.

I own a IH TD9 tracked loaded with 4 in 1 bucket.

I don't need it but I've never let details like that bother me. As I told my first wife when she queried why I needed a 3rd lathe.

I still have the lathe...

FKT

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12 hours ago, The Lucky One said:

You have pellets in April? You lucky dog. I can burn through three tons easy in a winter. I'm usually left hunting from store to store in March, scrounging up enough bags to keep me through. My Tacoma only hauls half a ton at a time. Keep telling myself that I'll pick up a bigger truck at some point, but that cuts into the boat money. Can't have that happening.

Don't they deliver? I get wood pellets blown into a store down ~200mm pipe from a lorry. The same type of infrastructure that's used to handle pelletised animal feed deliveries to farms.

 My store holds about four tons, takes about half an hour for the delivery guy to blow them in and is about £20/tonne cheaper than a pallet of bagged pellets, even if I pick those up myself. 

Cheers, 

               W.

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15 hours ago, Ajax said:

It depends on how much I split the heating burden between the heat pump and the pellet stove.  As you know,  a heat pump is almost useless down near freezing temps and just plain inefficient the rest of the time. 

Is it because your heat pump is an older generation? We use ours constantly during winter, even to below 0F. The efficiency goes down but it's still effective. 

Like you, we also heat with a pellet stove, now for over 10 years. I buy the pellets by the ton in bags. I'm lucky, my supplier is just a mile down the road and they drive a forklift (road registered) and truck down, lift the pellets off on the street and place them inside my shop/garage doors. 

The heat pump and pellet stove are a great combination in an old house like ours that has been redesigned to allow easy airflow throughout and weatherized to make heating affordable. 

1041927296_PelletstoveandHeatpumpgohandinhand..thumb.jpg.ebf7b28e942aa64c039c0b62426f8bfe.jpg

 

When I did the design for the rehab of this old house, I expected to put a fossil boiler in. I never did and glad of it now. Today, heat pumps are beginning to be the heat of choice for many and they are helping weatherize our old housing stock. Tomorrow, electricity will be the fuel that replaces fossil. I'm not sure how wood pellets will evolve here in Maine but the industry seems steady and growing.  

I also use these German spot electric heaters. I love them because they work on a timer so you don't have to remember to shut them off in a bathroom. Plus they have a thermostat. Best of all, you only need 14-2 Romex on a double pole 15A 220 circuit for 2000 watts of heat. 

We (society) used to abhor electric heat and many thought it was inefficient. As you know it's 100% efficient compared to most heating systems.

77040926_Remoteelectricheaterwithatimer-abrilliantidea!.thumb.jpg.bd7b48675469fd522de1478c445b8367.jpg

 

Today it's 50 degrees in Maine and I cranked the heat pump this am with glee as I know it's 300% efficient right now. I can give the pellet stove a rest,...

 

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